THE REAL DEAL with the HL2 source

[OCybrManO]

By "many people at Valve could tell" I meant that at least several people (Gabe is probably one of them) that have been involved in most aspects of the code for one reason or another... not that a team of coders would collectively have knowledge of the entire code.

... and I mentioned the physics, shaders, and displacement maps (though, some of it I haven't seen proof for) for the people that claim that it is all fake and that the videos are of the old HL engine... not because HL2 is the only game that has them (which is false).

 

[HeNdRiX]

how will they and will it be hard for VALVe to find these hackers??
And when will it be too late to stop them from doing what every with it, like cheats and copying rivals and etc??
Also, if VALVe were to release it in the next few months, or year, all they would need to do is just adjust their code so the hacker's doesn't match the resources???

 

[HeNdRiX]

i just wanna play HL2 as soon as i can

 

[GJaaGular]

These H4xxorz rule...they just stole millions of dollars...whats that song...eeeeew take the money an run......sooo damn funny I told gabe not to list his Email address....oh well

 

[alco]

Originally posted by HeNdRiX
how will they and will it be hard for VALVe to find these hackers??
And when will it be too late to stop them from doing what every with it, like cheats and copying rivals and etc??

It's already too late to stop cheats & hacks. They'd have to re-write all that code. And they can't re-write all of it. All they can do is keep sending us patches through Steam.

And no one's gonna copy the code for their own game. :dozey:

 

[GJaaGular]

Steam won't happen anymore well not if you need a credit card to get something

 

[alco]

Originally posted by GJaaGular
These H4xxorz rule...they just stole millions of dollars...whats that song...eeeeew take the money an run......sooo damn funny I told gabe not to list his Email address....oh well

WTF IS GOING ON IN YOUR AVATAR??!????!???

 

[Lukes Wall]

The woman is passing her hands through her hair.

 

[Dhoco X]

I can't see any hands...:bounce:

 

[GJaaGular]

she's singin cooombiyaaa


Halflife2 has fallen...myyy presssssiciooous

 

[Dhoco X]

Something doesn't smells good on GJaaGular... :hmph:

 

[GJaaGular]

mmmm Guess What they took Halflife2 away from us can't you see the humour in that..They took the single most important event in your life away...you gotta respect that....

 

[Pumbert]

Originally posted by Unnamed_Player
And yet I'm willing to bet you don't feel the same about downloading MP3s.

It amazes me that some people will DL MS Office from Warez sites or pull entire CDs of MP3s from Kazaa then turn around and chastise people for looking at stolen code because it's "wrong".

I guess it's all good until it affects you personally in some way.

Amen.

 

[GJaaGular]

Kudos to the those responsible

 

[alco]

Originally posted by GJaaGular
Kudos to the those responsible

Seriously, though, did you steal the freakin' code?

 

[GJaaGular]

Nah I'm not smart enough or dumb enough

 

[half-man]

since that they are too much i havent read all previous post so maybe im posting again the same:
ok, poor Valve, it has been heavily damaged, maybe they are close to dismiss the company and so on...
but can someone reply to 2 simple questions?

1st: why Valve have push up all this mess screaming to all the word that they have been so stupid to be leaked instead to inform anti-internet crime authorities (or something like that) quitely?

2nd: why Valve, after 5 years of total and perfect silence, where nobody knew that it should be an hl sequel, has claimed an issue date and then, near the finish line have push it back???

sound strange all of this, isnt it? :dozey:

 

[GJaaGular]

sorry i only speak german


little babies eyes

 

[alanschu]

Game developers can't use it, at least not to a large degree. It would be noticed.

Yes they can, you even allude to this later in your post Gotham, when you talk about how people underestimate the ability to reverse engineer. People reverse engineer the code so that they can look at it, and use it in some way to apply to their program.

Receiving the source code for free simply removes the painstaking troubles that go into reverse engineering.

If anything, they will now be more interested in licensing it when they get a good look at what they're gonna get!

No, why would they. The point of licensing an engine is to look at the code. However, with some creativity, it is not hard to mask someone else's code as your own.

 

[alanschu]

Gotham mentioned security through obscurity as a defense of people not hacking Steam and whatnot.

How, Gotham, would this work?

 

[alco]

Originally posted by alanschu
Yes they can, you even allude to this later in your post Gotham, when you talk about how people underestimate the ability to reverse engineer. People reverse engineer the code so that they can look at it, and use it in some way to apply to their program.

Receiving the source code for free simply removes the painstaking troubles that go into reverse engineering.



No, why would they. The point of licensing an engine is to look at the code. However, with some creativity, it is not hard to mask someone else's code as your own.

So you seriously see a company, say for example THQ, telling their programmers to look at the source code and get secrets off of it. As said in an MSNBC article, programmers go from company to company, exchanging secrets & such, and any good coder can achieve a desired effect. They don't have to steal.

I don't think they're gonna touch it. And the main reason for liscencing engines is not just to look at the code, dumbass. The point is most companies don't have the resources to build an engine anyways. Source will get undoubtedly get bought by many dev teams, regardless of the leak.

 

[GJaaGular]

Whats everyone gonna be for Halloween????...I have a full werewolf costume an I guess i'll be playing Call of Duty like the rest of you..the night is long an home is far away...playing hard i've learned my lesson...can you hear me out back????? I have the source from a friend no Virii...but now what the hell do do with it???? forgive me

 

[GJaaGular]

did i just say do do?

 

[MooCow]

Take note boys and girls, here we have the almost prototypical example of spam.

 

[Heborah]

?

I have a quick question... WHY THE HELL DID VALVE PUT THE SOURCE ON A MACHINE WITH NET ACCESS???@?!?!?!? I mean really, why use unupdated software on a machine with remote access software that is connected directly to the internet?

 

[GJaaGular]

Re: ?

Originally posted by Heborah
I have a quick question... WHY THE HELL DID VALVE PUT THE SOURCE ON A MACHINE WITH NET ACCESS???@?!?!?!? I mean really, why use unupdated software on a machine with remote access software that is connected directly to the internet?

I really don't think it matters now.....I'f i was to die at this very moment I'd be happy in love an dead

 

[kimo]

Guyz...(It's hard to say because the name of this topic isn't very pertinent but)I think this discussion is off-topic.
If u read some older replays u would know, that this discussion was mainly about "the code" and how workable it is right now. To prove ppl like you that they should or not worry about the upcoming game from Valve.

But you are just sabotaging the whole discussion. I'm really surprised how idiotic the HL community is. Try to read disscussion "I need the assistance of the community" created by Gabe Newell him selft. They had to close it(also u would see: there were many ppl before u asking the same, i would say:u lack creativity). Cause everybody was doing the same as u here. Just writing how much they love him and if the Valve will be closed because of this accident. Nobody here can say, only ValVe knows what will happen. If u are really so interested take your time and write VAlVE an e-mail. Well, if u have enough gutz.

Many of your questions were answered already before,but yeah, it's simplier to ask("reading is so difficult for me.."). Especially when u are asking ppl that also have no idea what this discussion is about.
U can practise your English somewhere else.

*If u don't want to read, just don't post anything. u are only confusing the others.

 

[GJaaGular]

I think your an idiot


don't you ever tell me what to think

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Damn right.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by alco
So you seriously see a company, say for example THQ, telling their programmers to look at the source code and get secrets off of it. As said in an MSNBC article, programmers go from company to company, exchanging secrets & such, and any good coder can achieve a desired effect. They don't have to steal.

I don't think they're gonna touch it. And the main reason for liscencing engines is not just to look at the code, dumbass. The point is most companies don't have the resources to build an engine anyways. Source will get undoubtedly get bought by many dev teams, regardless of the leak.

I definitately should have been much more clear when I simply stated "to look at the code." I should have used something along the lines of "get access to the code" (for cost/time saving measures that you indicated).


To the first part of your post, ask yourself this. If any good coder can achieve a desired effect, then why prevent people from looking at it? Because it saves time and money. If THQ was working on a game, and they knew that an effect they wanted in the game had already been done before, it would be stupid for them not to look at it (if it was available). Building games takes time and money. Being able to use code that has already been proven to work will save them time and money. If Half-Life 2's Source Engine was already shown to demonstrate something that they wanted to do in their own game, you don't think that they would see how it is done in the Source Engine? I think people overstate the amount of ethics that game developers have. Programming complex algorithms is extremely time producing work, which positively correlates to the cost of a project, any help is generally appreciated. This is one of the huge advantages of open source code. If you're stumped, you can check out the other guys stuff and see how it works (if it applies to your problem), and continue making your product.

Lets say Valve noticed an algorithm in Havoc that could be applied to much more than just the physics engine (hypothetically, I have no knowledge of what is in the Havoc Physics Engine), do you think they would honestly just ignore it, because it wasn't theirs to begin with, and spend who knows how much time and effort on it, when they could simply look at it and make it work in such a way for their own engine?

Look at Microsoft. They got access to the Mac GUI by becoming a software developer for the Mac. They used this opportunity to gain access to the interface, and were able to make MS Windows from it.

Or even look at Apple themselves. They heard about a GUI being developed by Xerox. They could have developed it themselves, but they acquired it to save themselves time, and manipulated it as they saw fit.


I don't disagree that Source code will still continue to be bought. If not for the fact that some stuff might be missing in the leak, then for the support of Valve for working with the Source code.

In the end, I need to clarify one thing. I am NOT saying that I think people will simply copy and paste the code. That would be stupid. But I think people are naive if they honestly think that any software developer than knows they can find the solution to their problem by examining someone else's solution, will look into it....it's only good business (especially if you don't break the law in doing so).

 

[PunitoR]

I just read an article with quotes from people from relic and EA saying that it's not nice that the code is leaked, but far from a disaster. And that other developers probably will not even look at it. That nothing much can be done with it. etcetera.

this is the link. which is also at the frontpage of halflife2.net but i felt like posting it, because maybe this means good news. And coming from people in the business and not people like...well us.

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,60701,00.html

 

[Hexx]

Ahhhhhhh boy. Seiously, wouldent you guys like to get ahold of the little PRICK who did this? I mean, even for 5 minutes, no 3 minutes, and i will show him pain he cant even fathome right now.
But, i still have confidence that HL2 will come out before the year ends, i know whats at stake but i have faith

 

[nickster]

My main concern is not the release of the game, but rather for the extreme loss this represents to the Valve team. The 5 year project that they've invested all their hard work and effort into is now freely downloadable to anybody. The great advances in AI and every aspect of programing has been stolen and given to everyone. It has also been stated that they may have lost more than just the source code and judging by the extreme lengths that the hacker/hackers went to it is in my opinion that they got everything, including all the pak files and artwork. Although out of some sick sense of right and wrong they decided to only post the source code. It is also in my opinion that Valve knew about the compromises to their network only chose not to report it to the media due to the fact that it would not only make the company look bad, but also open them up to liability due to the fact that technologies such as the Havok physics engine were also stolen and Valve is contractually bound to protect those technologies. It is in my opinion that this had something to do with the original delay. Once the source code was spotted on various websites, only then did Valve go to the media.

This might be a good thing considering that programers can only end up producing better games from studying the masters over at Valve. Who knows? This event may singlehandedly change the FPS genre as we know it. Also, this will ensure that Valve wont hold back anything in the tools they provide to the MOD community since the complete source code is already available. Think about it, why would anyone want to make a game thats inferior to Half-Life 2 when all the resources are freely available to utilize. All that aside though, I deeply sympathize with the Valve team and look on this entire ordeal with great disgust and great disdain for whomever perpetrated this terrible act.

Who did it? I'm surprised nobody mentioned the obvious. John Carmack and Co.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it. http://www.halflife2source.com

 

[kanzler]

Originally posted by gloryofbach
I have had the chance to look at some of the leaked source of a Friend's computer, and I am sorry to say to a programmer it is very understandable.

And in a next post:

Originally posted by gloryofbach
I have NOT downloaded the code, nor seen it, but have kept abreast of the work being done on the source via the internet.

This leads me to the conclusion you are a hypocritical piece of sh*t. If you had any principles you would kick your 'friend' for downloading the source instead of looking at it. People like you are going to cost Valve money. You are sad gloryofbach.

 

[gloryofbach]

Kanzler, I haven't much time to keep track of this thread, but please leave the flames to another thread.

To be completely honest with you, this is the first time in my life I have posted on any forum, because of the amount of immature rubbish I see posted, and the degeneration of EVERY thread into flaming. For the record, my first post ever is made a sticky and referenced by most of the Half life 2 news sites as an excellent guide to the source code leak, coincidentally around the same time Halflife2.net went down from too many external links being made to it.

My point is not to brag about how to write posts, it is to make the observation that forums could potentially be the most useful parts of the internet (look at the importance of their antecedants, the Greek and Roman forums of debate and policy formulation) yet they remain pretty immature in my opinion. If only people took the time to post without spelling mistakes or insults and using well structured, informative points and opinions. Your point is a good one, but the manner it is made is not appreciated. To answer it:

I am careful to state that I have not downloaded the source to half life 2 ad this is ILLEGAL. I have indeed seen it, but not on my machine. Hence the confusion in those two posts of mine you mentioned. I am not going to morally judge anyone for downloading the source code as it is not my business to do so. Valve's most important job was not to allow it to be leaked in the first place.

 

[4thdegreeburnz]

True-frischo,true. From what I have seen of the AI it looks awesome and someone has to want that AI in their game without doin the dirty work....right?

 

[kanzler]

Originally posted by gloryofbach
I am not going to morally judge anyone for downloading the source code as it is not my business to do so. Valve's most important job was not to allow it to be leaked in the first place.

So if your 'friend' stole a million dollar you would not report it to the police? Of course not, you would say: 'Give me some of that...' Which is the same as looking at stolen code. Or did he force you to look???

And comments about a person's spelling is plain sad. How good can you read and write dutch?

 

[Jackl]

I wouldn't report it.

It's only money.

 

[Greenhorn{FU}]

This is quite obviously a tradegy to all involved and my heart goes out to all those programmers, I guess, to them, it feels like someone came into their house and stole one of their children, it was a part of them. The gave birth to it, helped it grow and then wham it was taken away. ;(

What everyone here has been addressing is how this will affect Valve and the gaming community and rightly so. However, my fear is that this may cause a kneejerk reaction with all software developers to overkill their security and protection, which inturn, like everything else, will cost more and guess where the extra cost gets recuperated?......yep, your wallet and mine. So, games for my 7 yr. old will cost 90.00 and the new HL2 will be 200.00. I just fear where this may be headed.

I feel the when they aprehend the suspect in this, he/she never sees the free world again, they make him/her work for NASA, FBI, US Government and all other areas of high security and write code to protect us from little worms and the like or if he/she refuses just give him/her a little injection to rid the world of this coldhearted criminal.

Well that's my 2 cents

 

[Zo0L]

Well, i didnt really take much notice of the whole hl2 source code scandal untill i read gloryofbach's report. so i wouldnt claim he hanst got more people involved :thumbs:

Plus kanzler that is the worst example ever... it is in tottaly different contex with the current situation.