The Sniper Update — Part One

[CyberPitz]

I love it when they update based on the big whining/pussy people. Makes me happy.

 

[Jintor]

Well, I like the look of it.

 

[DigiQ8]

I approve this.

 

[Omnomnick]

Wow, this looks pretty cool. And for those of you who havn't looked closely yet...

New alpine map on the way.

 

[TwwIX]

Nice.

"Stick around, wanker!"

 

[Danimal]

I've got mixed feelings about this.

i.e. Snipers running around with the arrow charged and unleashing it on the first person they bump into.

I hope you have to stand still to fire the arrow.

Also, when's the next Meet the Team video coming out?

 

[nurizeko]

I'm with the "so whats the point of this?" crowd.

It doesn't stun, fine thats good, but what does it do?.



I remember when updates were to improve a class rather then just because it was obvious and the developers out of real ideas.

 

[Zephos]

I'm with the "so whats the point of this?" crowd.

It doesn't stun, fine thats good, but what does it do?.



I remember when updates were to improve a class rather then just because it was obvious and the developers out of real ideas.

Something pointed it out before, but it obviously doesn't seem to have a scope.

So I assume because of that they are wanting this to be more close range i.e. Run in, stand for a second... charge and fire.

It just looks fun to use, too.

 

[Mess]

well they had that map with the 2 payloads in the background of scout update and we didn't get it, so I wouldn't hold my breath on a new map.

 

[CyberPitz]

I'm with the "so whats the point of this?" crowd.

It doesn't stun, fine thats good, but what does it do?.



I remember when updates were to improve a class rather then just because it was obvious and the developers out of real ideas.

I don't know, not having to zoom and wait, what, 2 seconds for a full charge and then shoot sounds pretty good. It was said that they were going to "dampen" the Snipers biggest advantage...Range. So obviously they are wanting you to get a little more up close and personal with this.

 

[bbson john]

It seems that according to the description, even if the victim is not killed, the arrow will stick on their body. So you may see a guy moving around with twenty arrows sticking out of his body.

 

[Darkside55]

The thread started out like this:

Is Valve running out of ideas?

I heartily lol'd.

...A bow and arrow? Um...

And I had a lot of hope. Despite being a fansite for Valve games, it's important that we're able to have dissenting opinions with Valve if something sounds iffy, or useless, or unclear, or just plain utterly retarded.

It's a bow and arrow. And it doesn't stun, it has no apparent benefits versus the sniper rifle, and the only thing that was pointed out in the update was "lol arrows stick out of your victims! And you can pin them to walls (but only if they're dead or dying)!"

And there's no scope, so it's an up-close weapon. An up-close weapon you charge for one second for a power shot, it won't stun, [likely] won't pin and immobilize, and the benefit is...lol there's an arrow coming out of that dude. So when I started to see dissenting opinions I was like, "Alright, man."

But then the thread started going like this:

I like it

This looks like it will be a shit ton of fun to play with! YAY!

My first reaction to this: "AWESOME."

It looks damn cool to me.

sounds cool.

Sounds like a lot of fun

and this community got right back to sucking Valve's dick. LOL THIS IS FUNNAY

THAT GUY GOT ARROWED

HE HAS LIKE EIGHTEEN ARROWS STICKING OUT OF HIM LMAO

...


...


OH FUCK OH FUCK THAT DIDN'T STUN HIM OR DO ANYTHING AT ALL AND I'M CLOSE TO HIM OH JESUS HE'S COMING RIGHT AT ME BLARG I'M DEAD

BUT LOL HE HAD SOME ARROWS IN HIM AND I TOOK A PICTAR WITH DEATHCAM LOL

I WILL POST THEM IN IMAGE DUMP




Jesus Christ, people. There are ten people on the TF2 team. Ten. And the best these ten people, sitting around a desk for the eight months it takes to design three new weapons for TF2, the best these ten people could think of was "Bow and arrow. Doesn't stun. Only pins dead or dying players. No scope. Close range. Arrows stick out of the bodies, marking them. Charge shot. Same crit chance on headshot as sniper rifle."

Brilliant. Sheer brilliance.

And most of you just eat it up.

This is why Valve doesn't have to work hard. They truly are the best video game company, because their fans would eat their shit if it was an update and came with a new map. They are the George Lucas of game developers.

 

[Surrogate]

Very fast loading time, may be more dependant on aim.

The weapon may be for me. I almost never use the sniper rifles charges, because I shoot very quickly after taking aim. Comes from the CS days - the good ol' desert eagle and AWP switching. I hope the aim is different. The sniper rifle limits sight a bit much.

 

[Au-heppa]

Jesus Christ, people. There are ten people on the TF2 team. Ten. And the best these ten people, sitting around a desk for the eight months it takes to design three new weapons for TF2, the best these ten people could think of was "Bow and arrow. Doesn't stun. Only pins dead or dying players. No scope. Close range. Arrows stick out of the bodies, marking them. Charge shot. Same crit chance on headshot as sniper rifle."

They have probably tried more weapons and weapon combinations than just this one before they decided to stick with this one. I think it's a good idea. It doesn't have to be something absolutely new and marvelous. Besides, when they came up with the stunning baseballs, or energy drink of Scout people complained about it being too different.

I don't know, not having to zoom and wait, what, 2 seconds for a full charge and then shoot sounds pretty good. It was said that they were going to "dampen" the Snipers biggest advantage...Range. So obviously they are wanting you to get a little more up close and personal with this.

This. No zooming, no wait, already makes it different from the sniper rifle, creates different gameplay. Seeing the arrow gives reward to the player. Although having "reward" from doing something might not always seem important, it adds to the fun.

And most of you just eat it up.

This is why Valve doesn't have to work hard. They truly are the best video game company, because their fans would eat their shit if it was an update and came with a new map. They are the George Lucas of game developers.

I am not sure what's with these anti-Valve or anti-Valve-fanboy rants you have been having lately. I haven't enjoyed every single update they have added, I don't think stunning ubered players is that much fun, but Valve is updating their game for free, they are experimenting on new things, and they tend to listen to the players on what they like and not. But somehow getting excited from having a free update that adds some variation and fun to the game makes us idiots? OK.

It seems that according to the description, even if the victim is not killed, the arrow will stick on their body. So you may see a guy moving around with twenty arrows sticking out of his body.

Healing might remove the arrows from the body. And there might be a limit of how many arrows there can be, or the arrows fade out after a time.

 

[Darkside55]

They have probably tried more weapons and weapon combinations than just this one before they decided to stick with this one. I think it's a good idea. It doesn't have to be something absolutely new and marvelous.

By "new and marvelous" you mean "not only does nothing, but takes away from the sniper's advantage and instead creates a false 'reward' for the player in the form of seeing the enemy running around with your arrows in him, otherwise if they're already close to death (or dead) they have a chance of being pinned to the wall, which serves gameplay in no way but sure does look funny."

If you assume that they "tried a lot of weapon combinations" before this, you really have to wonder what those could have been, because this is the laziest, almost inexcusable update that they've released. People might not like the scout's stuff, but at least it attempted to do something different. And you're mistaken--people didn't not like it because they were different, they didn't like them because they weren't that useful. There's a huge difference.

I really would like to know what ideas they went through in order to come up with something that not only functions in a similar manner to the sniper rifle, but takes away the key element of range and offers absolutely no bonus for it! The goal of the updates was always, "We're not giving you upgrades for your existing weapons, we're giving you a weapon you can use in a different situation, and/or to vary your gameplay style." This is a good idea. At what point did this ideal become, "We're just going to give you the same weapon but with reduced functionality."

I am not sure what's with these anti-Valve or anti-Valve-fanboy rants you have been having lately. I haven't enjoyed every single update they have added, I don't think stunning ubered players is that much fun, but Valve is updating their game for free, they are experimenting on new things, and they tend to listen to the players on what they like and not. But somehow getting excited from having a free update that adds some variation and fun to the game makes us idiots? OK.

"They're doing it for free!" isn't a real defense against a bad/useless update. That's a copout of the highest magnitude. "Well you can't really complain, because it's FREE!" Yes you can. If you got free food that gave you food poisoning, are you not entitled to complain to the chef? And if you see a bunch of people still sitting at that restaurant after you KNEW they served food that carried a health risk, but they were serving it for free, wouldn't you walk by and say, "What are you all doing eating here? What is wrong with you?"

I'm just not so rose-tinted goggles when it comes to Valve.

If you don't like it...well, my opinion's free.

 

[Sulkdodds]

On the other hand, we don't actually know for sure what the bow and arrow does yet.

I for one am only cautiously pessimistic.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

"I don't like this. Anyone who does like it is obviously deluded and just sucking Valve's dick."

 

[Darkside55]

That about sums it up, unless you can legitimately tell me exactly how this is not a lazy update. Or how it's beneficial to the game in some way. Or how, y'know, it's even innovative at all considering I've been using the crossbow to put hot rebar through peoples' heads on Killbox_Final in HL2DM for the past...how long's it been? Five years? Little more? Been pinning people to the wall by their heads since people were priming grenades in their hands and throwin' 'em with the grav gun.

And see if they did it like that...let's say, y'know, something like this:

Sniper update:
Hunting bow
no scope
range of a few meters
reduced damage, no charged shot
chance of pinning enemy for a few seconds if they're in close proximity to a wall

What's wrong with that? Or maybe:

Hunting bow
no scope
close range, maybe 20ft. max
charging serves as drawing the string; the longer the shot is held for the more damage it does, no crit chance

Or maybe they could have gone oldschool HLDM unscoped crossbow status:

Hunting bow
no scope
medium-long range; arrows curve
arrows do minor explosive splash damage

It's a crowd control arrow. The sniper, as he is, can only deal with one target at a time. How useful is that? It wouldn't do enough damage to kill a person unless they were severely wounded, and you wouldn't use it against a single target, but if you arched your shot and put a few of those suckers down in a crowded area, say where your offense was massing against the enemy defense, you'd be a real credit to team.

Right now, sniper is very little credit to team.

Arrows sticking out of your enemies' bodies is not credit to team.

 

[Warbie]

No scope?! **** that.

 

[xdrive]

So will the update be coming next week then? since this has been released and it says "day 1" going by the scout update, it should be.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

In the coming days, Discrate. So very shortly indeed. I'd guess Monday or Tuesday latest.

 

[ríomhaire]

I wish regular members could see infractions that other members have. It seems certain members are allowed troll like hell with no punishments being delt out. Of course, I don't actually know if they are getting infractions behind the scenes or not, which is the annoying part.

On this actual update. I'd like to know how much damage this bow does compared to the sniper rifle. Seeing as there's no scope I'm guessing that the charge for this bow is different from the rifle and that you charge it by holding down the fire button, and that you can run around at full speed while charging. The charge time is also a quarter that of the rifle's. I'm guessing this will be a lot more useful for people that want to move about and set up ambushes rather than those who camp in place.

 

[Au-heppa]

By "new and marvelous" you mean "not only does nothing, but takes away from the sniper's advantage and instead creates a false 'reward' for the player in the form of seeing the enemy running around with your arrows in him, otherwise if they're already close to death (or dead) they have a chance of being pinned to the wall, which serves gameplay in no way but sure does look funny."

I really would like to know what ideas they went through in order to come up with something that not only functions in a similar manner to the sniper rifle, but takes away the key element of range and offers absolutely no bonus for it! The goal of the updates was always, "We're not giving you upgrades for your existing weapons, we're giving you a weapon you can use in a different situation, and/or to vary your gameplay style." This is a good idea. At what point did this ideal become, "We're just going to give you the same weapon but with reduced functionality."

I already used the "it's free" card. Now it's time for the "you haven't played it yet" card.

Like said in this thread. It's probably going to be a lot faster, and has the bonus of not having to be zoomed to be as effective. I also have faith of Valve on testing these new weapons to make sure they are not useless.

"They're doing it for free!" isn't a real defense against a bad/useless update. That's a copout of the highest magnitude. "Well you can't really complain, because it's FREE!" Yes you can. If you got free food that gave you food poisoning, are you not entitled to complain to the chef? And if you see a bunch of people still sitting at that restaurant after you KNEW they served food that carried a health risk, but they were serving it for free, wouldn't you walk by and say, "What are you all doing eating here? What is wrong with you?"

I'm just not so rose-tinted goggles when it comes to Valve.

If you don't like it...well, my opinion's free.

It's the way you said it:

This is why Valve doesn't have to work hard. They truly are the best video game company, because their fans would eat their shit if it was an update and came with a new map. They are the George Lucas of game developers.

You make it sound like they are somehow almost exploiting their fanbase. If we would pay for each update regardless of what it is, etc., then this would be true. They are not putting out a new product and charging for it.

For me the updates do what they are supposed to do. They make me interested on the game that I don't otherwise always play so much.

 

[MJ12]

And most of you just eat it up.

This is why Valve doesn't have to work hard. They truly are the best video game company, because their fans would eat their shit if it was an update and came with a new map. They are the George Lucas of game developers.

:|

 

[Operational]

By "new and marvelous" you mean "not only does nothing, but takes away from the sniper's advantage and instead creates a false 'reward' for the player

You love jumping to conclusions don't ya?

From what I can tell from the (limited) information we have "The Huntsman" might just be the biggest gameplay changer for a class we've had yet. Currently the Sniper is mostly restricted to long distance camping due to the SMG being weak and noscopes being weak because they can't be charged up.

The Huntsman buffs noscoping and sacrifices, err, the scope and (probably) range. You can charge it while unscoped, it charges faster and probably does more uncharged damage compared to the current Rifle. They made it a projectile weapon (making it harder to aim/hit) mostly likely for balance reasons. This will lead to Sniper gameplay very different than what we have now while still rewarding high precision aiming.

The pinning to walls is just cosmetic.

 

[Darkside55]

I already used the "it's free" card. Now it's time for the "you haven't played it yet" card.

Ah but my friend the thing is you haven't played it either. So while I'm formulating an opinion on it based on the information we DO have, you--and a fair few others in this thread--are going off of what you don't know. "I'm sure it will be balanced," "Valve will probably make sure they're not useless," "I have faith."

It's precisely that "faith" in Valve that's come to dominate this community. People just throw up their arms and say, "I have faith!"

Did faith serve you when the scout update was released? How's the Force A Nature treating you? Working out for ya? Is it useful?

How's the backburner post-nerf? How's that doing? Enjoying your non-health bonus? Still a useful weapon, ain't it?

How's Natasha? You like Natasha? Is Natasha credit to team? Is she better than Sasha? Do ya like Natasha? Did Valve make good on your faith with Natasha? Do you find yourself thinking, "Boy, Natasha sure is a great weapon that is very useful to me in certain situations. I like Natasha a lot and she really has a place in my arsenal."

Like said in this thread. It's probably going to be a lot faster, and has the bonus of not having to be zoomed to be as effective.

The hunting rifle being faster is an assumption. Even if it is, you realize a good sniper can pop off shots instantly with the rifle? Especially in TF2, since you can zoom, shoot, zoom, shoot. You don't even have to hold, zoom, release like in TFC. Zoom, click. Zoom, click. Pop pop pop. So it's not as if you're gaining rapid fire arrows. Especially not with a one-second charge time for a powered shot.

You make it sound like they are somehow almost exploiting their fanbase. If we would pay for each update regardless of what it is, etc., then this would be true. They are not putting out a new product and charging for it.

For me the updates do what they are supposed to do. They make me interested on the game that I don't otherwise always play so much.

They're not exploiting you, they just aren't working hard. That's what I said. They are not working hard on the updates, not only because they're free, but because fans really don't give a shit. In fact one thing I can say nice about Valve is that in previous times when it came to updates they usually didn't shit on you. They'd give you something nice for free and you'd be like, "Goddamn, thanks Valve. That's mighty kind o' you."

But with TF2...I don't know, man. Maybe it's because it's such a casual game (even you yourself said it's a game you don't play often) that they really just don't care what they're throwing out to people any more. Maybe it's because majority opinion on the communities they listen to all say things like, "Looks great, Valve!" and "Looks fun, Valve!" and Valve's just like, "We can give these people whatever and they'll still be happy about it."

They're not exploiting you, for a certainty, because you're right--you aren't paying. But hell man if you aren't paying for something and they're just throwing in "whatever" updates, why even bother? It's that whole damn thing of trying to inject the game with that "Now with new freshness!" thing in lieu of actual depth that really gets me. It's like...you want me (or you allow me the option) to grind away for ridiculous amounts of time on achievements that mean nothing in the long run save for brief personal satisfaction and completism, for...what? A weapon that's going to be basically the same as my old one, except no scope? For what benefit? Even assuming I have a faster rate of fire, you're reducing my range for that? And the visual 'bonus' of seeing an enemy tagged with my arrows, that serves absolutely no gameplay benefit?

I mean doesn't that bother you? "Play our game, grind for hours, you get NOTHING." Not even nothing, this time. You get something WORSE than what you had previously!

And everybody's like, "Yum yum Valve lemme gobble that up you guys sure are fantastic."

Damn man, I even listed like three ways to do it and they all just popped into my head instantly. And I'm one guy on a team of myself versus ten guys being paid to come up with ideas for months, and the best they could come up with is THAT? You're seriously going to tell me that you, as a sniper, playing on a team game, would actually find some use in that versus a crowd control splash damage arrow? Come on, man. Like I said, sniper is currently not credit to team. Sniper is self-serving jerk who pees in jars and totally takes up rations that would be better spent putting in giant, oversized mousetraps for the enemy team.

I wish regular members could see infractions that other members have. It seems certain members are allowed troll like hell with no punishments being delt out.

I'm guessing...you can run around at full speed while charging.

Baseless guess.

The charge time is also a quarter that of the rifle's.

And you're also losing a few seconds from the time it takes an enemy to reach you; that is, you've got more time to charge if you're far away zooming in, but less time if you're up close. So basically...you could call it an even trade, unless the damage doesn't equal out and then you better hope that the bow really DOES rapid fire, like Au-Heppa's hoping.

I'm guessing this will be a lot more useful for people that want to move about and set up ambushes rather than those who camp in place.

set up ambushes

rather than camp

somehow making a distinction between camping and ambushing

Bro...SAME THING. The difference is, "I'm gonna wait for you in this spot for a really long time until the opportune moment to strike, but I'm far away" versus "I'm gonna wait for you in this spot for a really long time until the opportune moment to strike, but I'm close."

And honestly the thought of a sniper crouching down with his little bow and arrow, waiting until someone passes him and he can charge up and shoot them in the head, then quickly run off to some other hiding spot and repeat...ha ha ha, is funny to me.

Meanwhile the smarter sniper crouches on his battlements, sips his coffee, pees in a jar, and takes out a couple heads before they enter his base. All while Tonto is running around trying to ambush people.

:|

You're the only one that could say something about Transformers, even after I got all mad about it in that thread in Film and TV, and I'm OK with it. Because you're my nemesis. That's what you're supposed to do.

You can charge it while unscoped, it charges faster and probably does more uncharged damage compared to the current Rifle. They made it a projectile weapon (making it harder to aim/hit) mostly likely for balance reasons. This will lead to Sniper gameplay very different than what we have now while still rewarding high precision aiming.

Baseless speculation in bold. And what's the real difference? "I'm a sniper, I'm gettin' close to ya!" "Oh I'm the sniper, I can charge without scoping, I'm getting close to you!"

Man does anyone here even PLAY sniper? Really? I mean seriously show of hands who here actually PLAYS the sniper? And I don't mean, "I've played him once, Darkside, for like an hour or two!" I mean someone who actually specializes in the sniper. Who here, show of hands. Who here has played the sniper in TF2 for extended periods of time, and I mean extended periods of time, and knows what it is to be the sniper in TF2?

"This could be the biggest gameplay change for a class we've had yet."

Yeah, a gameplay change that puts you right in harm's way and still doesn't help the team. GG.

 

[Viperidae]

Warning: post assumes some amount of actual reading ability. If you're going to disagree, actually take apart my arguments.


To those who assume that it's going to be useful, I call to the witness table two historical precedents:

Exhibit A:

USELESS. With the first you're trading your run-of-the-mill shotgun, an altogether excellent weapon for finishing off flaming players for... another way to set them on fire. Once. From any distance. A good player is going to dodge from a distance. The only, ONLY use for the flaregun is arena, where medkits are all but gone, and you can grind kill enemies that won't face you. In regular play, where medkits and dispensers are everywhere, it's useless. I've encountered so many Pyros who race around with the damn thing thinking they're hell on earth. But please, put it down, and actually kill with the shotgun instead.



Exhibit B:

USEL--Well. I was hopeful for it. Finally the Scout had a way of dodging around sentry farms, which normally mean instant death for any Scout actually doing his job of, you know, scouting ahead. But they implemented it oddly. You can get bodyblocked, and received damage still hits you and bounces you around. Plus you already have to know the sentries are there to use it, what with the startup delay. In terms of metagame, it still equates to instant death. Trail showing everyone where you are? Check. Reduced speed after? Check. Equates to: everyone and their mother on the other team is going to target you once your little isotopic adventure is over. So, again, useless.

Now the better question is: are all unlocks supposed to be useful?

Hell no.

Everyone keeps harping on about 'the medic unlocks, the medic unlocks, oh, the fabled medic unlocks!' You all need to remember WHY the medic unlocks are so useful. Without them the medic seriously lacks combat ability. Before them barely anybody played medic and enjoyed it. The blutsauer alone is what keeps retreating medics alive after ubers. The ubersaw is a very good way of rewarding medics who take calculated risks to deal higher damage at point blank range. Before these the medic had small survivability in combat, compounded by a completely static ubercharge time.

What was needed next? The Pyro, as she was then the most useless class. So they buffed her, unbuffed her, ad infinitum, to some degrees of success.

But then where did the game stand? Everything was basically balanced. The spy and the engie had a few useful changes, but they weren't gamebreaking. The rest of the classes were pretty fair game.

So what else can Valve do? They don't want to **** up balance (well, with the Scout I'm not so sure), but they have to release new shit, just to keep interest in the IP as well as 'finish the job' in terms of 3 unlocks/class. It also gives them better sales. So they keep churning out more stuff, dutifully.

What they should be doing is making unlocks that don't replace the default weapons, but provide an alternate means of dealing with specific situations, while severely limiting the player in the process. Nastascha, for instance, is hardly helpful for a lone medic/heavy combo, but when amidst an attacking force can be very effective at making sure no survivors escape.

There's one thing, though, that I don't think Valve have realised until very recently. I think it's driven all of their latest mmo ideas. It explains why they're going toward the direction of random-multiplier weapons. Darkside touched on it earlier with the lack of depth compared to TFC:

Balanced, pick-up-and-play gaming is boring.

Once everyone figures out their roles, once everyone has figured out the maps and the weapons and the unlocks etc etc etc it gets BORING. Static. Every round plays out the same. The only variables are the players and luck (which in itself is limited in range). The metagame, which for most games takes about 2 years to really flesh out, is realised within the first month of an update. Imagine if Starcraft had only 3 working build orders. Every game would play the same. The only way for Valve to keep the metagame fresh is to constantly release new content, but at the potential cost of balance.

Why does the sniper even NEED an update? He's already balanced. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. In fact he's so balanced and straightforward he has no depth. Almost anybody can pick him up and play him to a skill level necessary to help in team games.

In fact, he lacks so much depth that he's the most boring class in the game. He's balls to play. I get more excitement playing Dwarf Fortress than sniping in TF2.

And now, in light of the new unlock, look at the reactions on our own board: 'looks fun!' 'can't wait to play!' That's what Valve wanted. They wanted people to be interested, even if for only a couple of months, in the sniper. Who knows, maybe the new weapons will actually change his role enough that people will play him more often. Maybe they'll actually make him more fun. If so, good.

I'm holding back on any analysis on the actual bow other than 'it doesn't stun? good' until the thing comes out. Personally I don't care. I'll probably have the best 2 weeks of spying ever with this new unlock. So enjoy your new toys, gentlemen. This will be the last time you see me.

tl;dr: Don't pretend the unlocks have to be useful, or are even necessary to a more balanced game. The only reason Valve are updating the sniper are because they promised to and he's boring.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Hey kids, the next person that presents their argument in an I'm-right-the-rest-of-you-are-stupid condescending and patronising manner loses their posting privileges! Woo!

 

[Viperidae]

K, I was hoping to have my post in before Darkside, but these fingers, they're slow.

If mine came across as condescending: unintentional. Was meant to just be direct.

 

[PvtRyan]

Hey guys, if you disagree with me, then you must be a Valve fanboy because I'm right.

USELESS. With the first you're trading your run-of-the-mill shotgun, an altogether excellent weapon for finishing off flaming players for... another way to set them on fire. Once. From any distance. A good player is going to dodge from a distance. The only, ONLY use for the flaregun is arena, where medkits are all but gone, and you can grind kill enemies that won't face you. In regular play, where medkits and dispensers are everywhere, it's useless. I've encountered so many Pyros who race around with the damn thing thinking they're hell on earth. But please, put it down, and kill with the shotgun instead.

Flare gun is great, not necessarily better than shotgun (which is good, that's the whole point) but I definitely prefer it. The shotgun was good before the pyro update because the pyro was utterly useless with his flamethrower when you were more than arm's length away. That isn't the case any more.

And yeah, you can stop the burning with a medkit or dispenser, which does what? Forcing the enemy to retreat. Which is the entire goddamn purpose of the pyro.

In fact, he lacks so much depth that he's the most boring class in the game. He's balls to play. I get more excitement playing Dwarf Fortress than sniping in TF2.

I love the sniper and he's easily the best designed sniper I've played. The charge-up time and dot-on-the-wall add a lot of subtle depth. I've NEVER enjoyed sniping in any other game.

 

[Viperidae]

The shotgun was good before the pyro update because the pyro was utterly useless with his flamethrower when you were more than arm's length away. That isn't the case any more.

But is the Pyro meant to be a jack of all trades? Good pyros ambush. They don't go running around trying to pick off people with the flaregun. Look at the stats for flaregun kills, compared to shotgun. Pyro is also the most devastating hit-and-run class. Why should she be out in the open firing little flameballs at people? The pyro is weakest and most vulnerable out in the open.

And yeah, you can stop the burning with a medkit or dispenser, which does what? Forcing the enemy to retreat. Which is the entire goddamn purpose of the pyro.

Nope, Pyro is good for defensive ambushes on large groups of attackers and to break turtling defences in small areas. A death is a lot more valuable than a retreat, especially with level 3 dispensers everywhere these days. When I'm flamed I don't think, 'Well damnit I just got sent back from the frontlines! Now I have to heal!' I think, 'I JUST SURVIVED, PHEW.'

 

[Operational]

Maybe it's because majority opinion on the communities they listen to all say things like, "Looks great, Valve!" and "Looks fun, Valve!" and Valve's just like, "We can give these people whatever and they'll still be happy about it."

You've obviously not spent time on the Steam forums.

Baseless speculation in bold. And what's the real difference? "I'm a sniper, I'm gettin' close to ya!" "Oh I'm the sniper, I can charge without scoping, I'm getting close to you!"

True, I should have said "possibly" rather than "probably". I think the difference between the current Sniper gameplay and the closer faster paced gameplay will be bigger than you think.

Yeah, a gameplay change that puts you right in harm's way and still doesn't help the team. GG.

Baseless speculation in bold.

 

[Operational]

They don't go running around trying to pick off people with the flaregun.

Most Pyro's that I know who use the flaregun do it to enhance their ambush/CQC attack, i.e. people on fire follow very predictable patterns.

 

[Darkside55]

You know what? I could QFT Viperidae on his big post, because there's a lot of things he says that I'm just like "Yeah!", but god bless Viperidae for this:

Pyro is good for defensive ambushes on large groups of attackers and to break turtling defences in small areas

This is a man who understands what the pyro does. The pyro should never be "sit back, launch some flaregun shots at faraway enemies, maybe rush up to 'em and burn." The pyro spawns, puts her purse in her locker, and chills out. Waits around for someone to come up and gives 'em the third degree tan. And if nothing's going on at home, pyro can take a stroll with an attacking group, sows chaos and death just enough for people to get through.

The flaregun might be a 'fun' weapon for you to use, but it's not really helping your team to kinda-sorta injure enemies and have them backtrack a bit to the nearest medic, healthkit, or dispenser. It's helpful to the team if you're like MWA-HA-HA-HA and killing a bunch of people.

You've obviously not spent time on the Steam forums.

Guilty. I figured they'd be like here, opinion-wise, but more strict since they're the actual Valve forum.

True, I should have said "possibly" rather than "probably". I think the difference between the current Sniper gameplay and the closer faster paced gameplay will be bigger than you think.

It will be a big change in the fact that snipers will be getting up close and shooting arrows at people. Yes, SNIPERS sacrificing range is a big change. I'm not arguing that point.

What I'm saying is, a sniper doing his job should be watching the base, picking off stragglers on O before they get inside. Snipers should not be down in the trenches playing Indians. I mean really, being a sniper up close isn't fun. It's nerve-wracking. You're not a tough class; you can't take a lot of damage. You're not a class that really performs well out in the open. And Viperidae might just walk up and stab you. It's a constant fear of the sniper! Out in the open, running around...you're just increasing your risk and minimizing effectiveness. The sniper already isn't an effective class, comparatively speaking. Knowing what the sniper is and what he does, I can tell you he's not a helpful teammate in most situations. A really, REALLY good sniper is like...he's kinda like that extra line of defense. You don't need him, but he's nice to have around because sometimes he'll pull off some nice kills and put fear into the enemy offense. And that's good. But he isn't a necessity.

And just the thought of seeing a bunch of snipers after the update, running around the server trying to get their bows and arrows, and then seeing said snipers WITH their bows, running around the map firing at each other, or trying to "ambush" people...ugh.

But then everyone's going to say, "(Maybe) Had a little fun with it, wasn't useful." And the people who didn't really play sniper will stop playing sniper after two weeks, and all the people who did play sniper will pick up their rifles and go back to their lonely job atop the battlements.

 

[Higlac]

I cannot be arsed to read the entirety of Darksied's posts, but I think that they could do a lot of cool things with a bow. Maybe it won't do as much damage as the sniper rifle, but it can reload faster, and maybe it could do damage the same as a real bow would, ticking damage away as your opponent bleeds out.

 

[Warbie]

But no scope? A sniper with no scope is a shit soldier. Sounds like a novelty weapon to me.

 

[Sheepo]

I will not even bother trying to actively participate in an argument with so many damn words, but I will just say: The flare gun is awesome and awesome and so awesome and if you insult it I will kill you in real life. Really. I have gotten so many more kills with it than the shotgun.

 

[Darkside55]

Warbie is the type of man who likes to look his opponent dead in the eye


from 300 yards away

 

[Viperidae]

I will not even bother trying to actively participate in an argument with so many damn words, but I will just say: The flare gun is awesome and awesome and so awesome and if you insult it I will kill you in real life. Really. I have gotten so many more kills with it than the shotgun.

Remember the last time you tried to prove me wrong? Me vs. 6 on Lumberyard. I gutted all of them like cornish game-hens.

Let's go, or, MMMMFFFMFMFMFMFFFFF.

 

[Warbie]

Warbie is the type of man who likes to look his opponent dead in the eye


from 300 yards away

I just don't want to bring a bow to a bazooka fight.

But yeah, I like to kill from afar