The West

Irksome

Irksome

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Is Western Civilization superior?

I'll post my response in a bit - I'm having a hard time finding the right words.
 
Well, yeah. We have good economies, we have democracies, and we do not have Shari'a... Yet. Pretty simple answer to a simple question.
 
Democracies. Free speech. Good stuff like computers and TV.
The people are no better or worse than people anywhere else, but the government/economies are far suprior to anyone else.
 
Certainly so, but we should also afford respect to those other countries that can't exactly pull off what we can or blame them for they're diversity.
 
*walks into thread*

*reads racist question*

*notices the extreme racism and ethnocentric ism of the posts*

*loses faith in humanity*

*kills self*
 
Democracy is not the be-all and end-all goverment type like its so popular to think in the western world. We do have stronger economy then the rest of the world, and that is pretty much the only thing clearly superior about the west.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
^ So ... what, would you rather live in Saudi Arabia?
Click to expand...

QFT

The West is superior in so many ways it's not even funny. If that seems racist or arrogant, then so be it. I find it to be very dishonest when people say that their freedom, their equality, their protection, and their civil liberties aren't worth anything compared to some Eastern wallows.

Being humble is good, but get serious. You would never leave your country for China, the Middle East, or anywhere other than another western nation.
 
asians will dominate us all I tell ya
 
You guys don't ****ing get it.

It's not western culture, its western resources that make us rich and powerful. The only reason the west has so much power is because Europe was faster in taking over the seas. If East Asia had continued with the explorations of people like Zheng Hu, China would have colonies all over the world, and would have dominated cultures like Europe.

Europe is only controlled the world because of its ideal climate, abundance of domesticatible plants and animals, and immunity to diseases like smallpox.

Its not ethnocentric to say the west is the most rich and powerful, but it is to say that the west is culturally superior. Our culture only seems better because it is put against the backdrop of wealth and prosperity. The root of all problems in the East is not culture, but geography and past opression. Similarly, the root of all Western successes lies in geography, access to resources and their quicker implementation of technologies like ballistics and optics.
 
So... the West is still superior though, right?
 
I would probubly not move to china, no. But if I had been born in china would I ever move to sweden assuming that it is possible?
 
Considering you can find a little of every culture in the west, thanks to so many non-Westerns flocking to western countries in Europe, the US, and so on - I would say that we're culturally superior too becuase of our ability to take in everyone and everything.

edit: So as long as those people can promise to assimilate to our and everyone else culture too.
 
The ironic thing is that our greatest quality; democratic thought and legal status, is the thing that could, in my opinion, be brought down easily by a stronger stronger 'cracy' such as theocracy; We value democracy so much that we are willing to even allow its enemies to speak against it and operate within its borders. Some people, like me, believe that this is a sure way to end it. Look at the "Muhammed-crisis" as we call it. That's just one incident, but it is totally indicative of the inherent problem of democracy: The people under it are mostly sane people. When those sane people feel that their democratic ways have hurt someone, they're ready to throw those ideals -- free speech for example -- right out the window because they have never and could never imagine what it would be like without them, much less having to fight to retain them.
 
theotherguy said:
You guys don't ****ing get it.

It's not western culture, its western resources that make us rich and powerful. The only reason the west has so much power is because Europe was faster in taking over the seas. If East Asia had continued with the explorations of people like Zheng Hu, China would have colonies all over the world, and would have dominated cultures like Europe.

Europe is only controlled the world because of its ideal climate, abundance of domesticatible plants and animals, and immunity to diseases like smallpox.

Its not ethnocentric to say the west is the most rich and powerful, but it is to say that the west is culturally superior. Our culture only seems better because it is put against the backdrop of wealth and prosperity. The root of all problems in the East is not culture, but geography and past opression. Similarly, the root of all Western successes lies in geography, access to resources and their quicker implementation of technologies like ballistics and optics.
Click to expand...

So you woulnd't have a problem living in Iran? After all, its just a different cultlure :rolleyes:
 
I would move to China if i had a good enough job offer. No mindless yobbism is bliss.
 
HunterSeeker said:
I would probubly not move to china, no. But if I had been born in china would I ever move to sweden assuming that it is possible?
Click to expand...
Yes, you most certainly would.

I consider western culture and civilisation to be far superior to anything else in the world ATM. Sure, the chinese, the egyptians and the iraqis may have had great cultures in past, but today the only good thing with those countries is what they have adopted from Europe and North America.

Take a look at China. The only reason they have had such an upswing in the economy and standard of living the last 30 years is because they've become more like western countries.

If you don't believe that the West is superior, travel around the world and take a look.

This is not racist as it has nothing to do with ethnic background.
 
Nemesis6 said:
The ironic thing is that our greatest quality; democratic thought and legal status, is the thing that could, in my opinion, be brought down easily by a stronger stronger 'cracy' such as theocracy; We value democracy so much that we are willing to even allow its enemies to speak against it and operate within its borders. Some people, like me, believe that this is a sure way to end it. Look at the "Muhammed-crisis" as we call it. That's just one incident, but it is totally indicative of the inherent problem of democracy: The people under it are mostly sane people. When those sane people feel that their democratic ways have hurt someone, they're ready to throw those ideals -- free speech for example -- right out the window because they have never and could never imagine what it would be like without them, much less having to fight to retain them.
Click to expand...

So what you believe is to save democracy you must take away democracy?
 
The Monkey said:
Yes, you most certainly would.

I consider western culture and civilisation to be far superior to anything else in the world ATM. Sure, the chinese, the egyptians and the iraqis may have had great cultures in past, but today the only good thing with those countries is what they have adopted from Europe and North America.

Take a look at China. The only reason they have had such an upswing in the economy and standard of living the last 30 years is because they've become more like western countries.

If you don't believe that the West is superior, travel around the world and take a look.

This is not racist as it has nothing to do with ethnic background.
Click to expand...

A-****ing-men.
 
No Limit said:
So what you believe is to save democracy you must take away democracy?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Democracy gives voices to all people, and that can be a big problem, because some people shouldn't have one since they will only use it to quell that of others and push to make that intolerance the law of the land. One example: Hizb Ut-Tahrir and Minhaj Ul-Quran We allow them to thrive and radicalize Muslims, and hence, we are slowly poking away at our democracy by nurturing and allowing its opponents to thrive in our society. It's just common sense: Don't give voices to the people who want to destroy the basis of your society. If they don't like it, they can **** off back to Jordan, Palestine or wherever they came from and find all they wish for there. Only catch is: Even those governments don't want them there and will put in jail which I have absolutely no problem with. The best thing would just be to deport these people when they spew Islamist crap. As simple as that: One "la illaha el allah" and it's back to that cold isolation cell in that Egyptian prison.
 
I don't think democracy in the Middle East is such a good idea at this stage anyway.

Look at Palestine, they voted for Hamas.

And the Saudi monarchy is horrible, but they are better than any of the alternatives.
bin laden for President, yay!
 
Nemesis6 said:
Yes and no. Democracy gives voices to all people, and that can be a big problem, because some people shouldn't have one since they will only use it to quell that of others and push to make that intolerance the law of the land. One example: Hizb Ut-Tahrir and Minhaj Ul-Quran We allow them to thrive and radicalize Muslims, and hence, we are slowly poking away at our democracy by nurturing and allowing its opponents to thrive in our society. It's just common sense: Don't give voices to the people who want to destroy the basis of your society. If they don't like it, they can **** off back to Jordan, Palestine or wherever they came from and find all they wish for there. Only catch is: Even those governments don't want them there and will put in jail which I have absolutely no problem with. The best thing would just be to deport these people when they spew Islamist crap. As simple as that: One "la illaha el allah" and it's back to that cold isolation cell in that Egyptian prison.
Click to expand...

You miss the point. By stifling free speech, you only give rise to notions of "fighting the machine" and "oppression", and the apparent suppression of the forbidden ideas only adds legitimacy to twisted movements.
One of the main reasons we have such a problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that we refuse to tackle it in the open. We hush it up, put a pretty bow on it, drive it underground. If we routinely tore apart their bullshit with reason and common sense in an open forum as we should feel free to do, they would have no platform to stand on anymore.
And yes, the West is culturally superior to the rest of the world. That's why we're richer and more successful, not the other way around.
 
Well... "better" is the wrong term to use.

"We can bomb you without repercussion if you disagree with us" is a more accurate term.
 
repiV said:
And yes, the West is culturally superior to the rest of the world. That's why we're richer and more successful, not the other way around.
Click to expand...

LOL, the entire US is a house or cards built on an ever expanding debt to China, Japan and the Oil rich Arab nations. When the US financial system eventually collapses under the strain it will take most of Europe with it. A wise man doesn't live beyond his means.
 
kirovman said:
I don't think democracy in the Middle East is such a good idea at this stage anyway.

Look at Palestine, they voted for Hamas.

And the Saudi monarchy is horrible, but they are better than any of the alternatives.
bin laden for President, yay!
Click to expand...
And the US voted for Bush, I say we abolish democracy there?
Isn't that fact the West has so many enemies telling of our own bad political choices.
For that matter who would you have voted if you were a Palestinian?
Given their circumstances I would say it's not really that odd.
Hamas like it or not represents most of the Palestinians, it's unfortunate.
But how ever bad they are at least with them you know you are dealing with true representatives and any progress however
hard and unlikely will actually mean something.

The saudi monarchy may have been good to the west, but most suicide bombers came from Saudi-Arabia as did bin laden.
Clearly something is off. I would say democracy is still the best way to go,
it may not get the leaders we like, but at least it gets the leader those people want.
And only when when we can deal with true representatives of those countries can we begin to address issue we have with those countries only then can we begin to forge relationships.


As far as the Op's question.

I believe we have a superior society. Now I do not look at it from standpoint of who has the most human rights or even wealth.
All those arguments can be argued on religious or philosophical grounds.
I look in which societies humans have the best chance of reproducing and raising the most healthy offspring's.
Since that seems to be the only thing we can objectively proof is our goal.
Now in the west we may not have as many kids as in some third world countries,
but that is not because we can't, its because we choose not to.
 
repiV said:
You miss the point. By stifling free speech, you only give rise to notions of "fighting the machine" and "oppression", and the apparent suppression of the forbidden ideas only adds legitimacy to twisted movements.
One of the main reasons we have such a problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that we refuse to tackle it in the open. We hush it up, put a pretty bow on it, drive it underground. If we routinely tore apart their bullshit with reason and common sense in an open forum as we should feel free to do, they would have no platform to stand on anymore.
And yes, the West is culturally superior to the rest of the world. That's why
we're richer and more successful, not the other way around.
Click to expand...

Problem is, our governments aren't really doing that; that would be "islamophobic" of them. And there's something you need to realize: Organisations like Hizb Ut Tahrir know full well the extent of the law. The ones who are Islamist manaiacs are already underground because voicing their opinions would get them jailed. When an organisation stands on corners handing leaflets to Arabs with the text "Death to Jews", it's time to do something. Pacifism has its limits, and this is one of them. Another example of that: Britain has spawned by far the most extremist generation of Muslims in the West. This is indicative of a problem on Britain's part: It is obviously not 'tearing' apart their bullshit, so the only solution left is banning the organisations, etc. It would be an easy solution, yes, but at the very least it would be a start to a problem Britain has not yet fully acknowledged -- The political correctness you hint of in action.
 
Nemesis6 said:
Problem is, our governments aren't really doing that; that would be "islamophobic" of them. And there's something you need to realize: Organisations like Hizb Ut Tahrir know full well the extent of the law. The ones who are Islamist manaiacs are already underground because voicing their opinions would get them jailed. When an organisation stands on corners handing leaflets to Arabs with the text "Death to Jews", it's time to do something. Pacifism has its limits, and this is one of them. Another example of that: Britain has spawned by far the most extremist generation of Muslims in the West. This is indicative of a problem on Britain's part: It is obviously not 'tearing' apart their bullshit, so the only solution left is banning the organisations, etc. It would be an easy solution, yes, but at the very least it would be a start to a problem Britain has not yet fully acknowledged -- The political correctness you hint of in action.
Click to expand...

You say that we should limit the speech of people against democracy. Well shit dude, after your posts I'm pretty sure that would include yourself.

You are sitting here advocating shutting down a great system because of fear. I am not scared of some pissed off muslims, I'm more scared of people like that are willing to give up freedom to feel safer.
 
No Limit said:
You say that we should limit the speech of people against democracy. Well shit dude, after your posts I'm pretty sure that would include yourself.

You are sitting here advocating shutting down a great system because of fear. I am not scared of some pissed off muslims, I'm more scared of people like that are willing to give up freedom to feel safer.
Click to expand...

look, in idealistic terms you are correct. but in reality this just doesn't work.

practically speaking democracy is a bad government type. a lot of people don't deserve the right to vote but they get it nonetheless. and other people exploit their weakness.

a dictatorship can be a better government if the dictator is good, listens to his people and doesn't do stupid things like all dictators did until now.

technically in a democracy people tell opinions based on concrete arguments, normally that never happens in reality. so people are just spewing out stuff for the sake of spewing it out and nothing else.

a democracy can work if people are flexible, "Muslims" and other similar arrogant, ignorant and violent filth is not.

people who don't want to contribute to a democratic society should have no part in it.

personally i have other solutions for the muslim-crisis, but if i must make a quick answer i'd say throw them out.
 
And now at that point we'd be back at an impractical technicality: Not all Muslims are brainwashed.
 
What doesn't work about it? America has been going strong for over 200 years and throughout the entire history there have been people here that have been against the government. From the KKK, the neonazis, communists, radical christians, etc. It's not perfect by any means, but its by far the best system we have. We could certainly use reforms in how elections are held and how many political parties we have but all people need to be represented fairly, if they aren't people will abuse the system.

How can you possibly be advocating a dictatorship jverne. You are talking about giving control of everything to one person or group? As corrupt as our own politicians already are you would honestly trust one person with that type of power because of fear?
 
anywhere is the west if you just keep on going far enough

original post doesn't make sense

and btw 200 years isn't a very long time
 
Lack of understanding on your part does not make the OP's post invalid.

West = The 'Western World', not literally 'A place to the west of our location'

Please try again.
 
No Limit said:
What doesn't work about it? America has been going strong for over 200 years and throughout the entire history there have been people here that have been against the government. From the KKK, the neonazis, communists, radical christians, etc. It's not perfect by any means, but its by far the best system we have. We could certainly use reforms in how elections are held and how many political parties we have but all people need to be represented fairly, if they aren't people will abuse the system.

How can you possibly be advocating a dictatorship jverne. You are talking about giving control of everything to one person or group? As corrupt as our own politicians already are you would honestly trust one person with that type of power because of fear?
Click to expand...


didn't you understand?

in the US it's not the people who lead...in other words they're being channeled what to chose...why hasn't no other party been elected in the 200 history of us? it's basically a dictatorship lead by two seemingly different groups of people, democrats and republicans.
it's just that is not a very strict dictatorship and leaves some amount of free speech, just so the citizens can feel in power.

personally i'd give my ass to a dictator if he would give me:

1. the best medical service known to man
2. allow me to pursuit any kind of knowledge i want
3. allow me to believe in what i want
4. allow me to do any kind of activity i want but of course...not criminal activity (murder,...)

the list can go on, but the problems with dictators are that they are messed up in the head. so that is why the are not good.
 
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