Tibet

[Jintor]

Wtf is going on there and why isn't there already a thread on it.

 

[nurizeko]

Eight pages of "FREE TIBET! o/" and "Chinese government are ****ing jerks" is probably not going to achieve much in the realm of discussion.

China is going to handle it he way China wants and that means mailed gauntlet gripping the Tibetans till they stop struggling.


Though I am ashamed of the western worlds responses.

TBH I think Britain could at least tell the Chinese Olympic torch run through London to shove off, not even a statement of dissapointment at China or anything.

But, apparently the Chinese economy is the world economy and yeah, I know we can never like, fly in like saviours like some backwater puny middle-eastern countries, but yeah......


Unfortunate, and the Han Chinese immigrants are getting grief for their moving there, orchestrated by the Chinese government anyway.

*shakes head*

Basically I cant say i wish anything but a quick death to the current Chinese regime and its imperialistic attitudes to territories it really has no business holding.

 

[jverne]

Eight pages of "FREE TIBET! o/" and "Chinese government are ****ing jerks" is probably not going to achieve much in the realm of discussion.

China is going to handle it he way China wants and that means mailed gauntlet gripping the Tibetans till they stop struggling.


Though I am ashamed of the western worlds responses.

TBH I think Britain could at least tell the Chinese Olympic torch run through London to shove off, not even a statement of dissapointment at China or anything.

But, apparently the Chinese economy is the world economy and yeah, I know we can never like, fly in like saviours like some backwater puny middle-eastern countries, but yeah......


Unfortunate, and the Han Chinese immigrants are getting grief for their moving there, orchestrated by the Chinese government anyway.

*shakes head*

Basically I cant say i wish anything but a quick death to the current Chinese regime and its imperialistic attitudes to territories it really has no business holding.

china is doing what any super power did until now. yes, they are being jerks.

 

[Godron]

Britain imports loads of stuff from China, that's why the government daren't say or do anything too critical of them. I think the Chineese severed a load of lucrative business contracts with India when they started accepting refugees from Tibet, so I doubt Britain or America want the same happening to them.

As for Jintor's actual question:
AFAIK, China invaded Tibet some decades ago and killed about 1.2 million people. Since then, it's been a steady programme of cultural genocide, with China moving its own people into Tibet and displacing the native poplulation. The migrants are given preferential treatment as policy. They've declared Tibet as officially a part of China and banned the Tibetan flag too; all this helps to destroy the Tibetan sense of indentity. I think they invaded to reduce their overcrowding problem, and to mine Tibet's natural resources. The Chineese government told its people they were freeing the Tibetan's from a backwards feudal system. I think most of them believed it.
The Dali Lama (former leader of Tibet) is in exile in India now. He has always insisted on non-violence against the Chineese, partly because that would go completely against Buddhist philosophy, partly because it would be suicide. Despite this, the Chineese government brand him as a terrorist. Instead of warfare, he prefers to appeal to the West for help. That's why the Tibetan's have started protesting and rioting now; they know the Western world is watching and will take notice.

 

[Pesmerga]

Needs moar pictures

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0140775a-f41a-11dc-aaad-0000779fd2ac.html

 

[Jintor]

As for Jintor's actual question:
AFAIK, China invaded Tibet some decades ago and killed about 1.2 million people. Since then, it's been a steady programme of cultural genocide, with China moving its own people into Tibet and displacing the native poplulation. The migrants are given preferential treatment as policy. They've declared Tibet as officially a part of China and banned the Tibetan flag too; all this helps to destroy the Tibetan sense of indentity. I think they invaded to reduce their overcrowding problem, and to mine Tibet's natural resources. The Chineese government told its people they were freeing the Tibetan's from a backwards feudal system. I think most of them believed it.
The Dali Lama (former leader of Tibet) is in exile in India now. He has always insisted on non-violence against the Chineese, partly because that would go completely against Buddhist philosophy, partly because it would be suicide. Despite this, the Chineese government brand him as a terrorist. Instead of warfare, he prefers to appeal to the West for help. That's why the Tibetan's have started protesting and rioting now; they know the Western world is watching and will take notice.

Good summary, thanks mate.

I saw the Dali Lama when he was in Sydney, and he was talking about China, but not so strongly... and I've been reading the Party Line that China is sending out. I think I know who I believe more.

Nurizeko - "Eight pages of Free Tibet or Chinese Goverment are ****s isn't going to do anything" may be true, but you could say the same for just about everything on these forums.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

I have nothing to add other than I saw a small crowd of demonstrators downtown here in Anchorage. Tibetans in Alaska, who knew!

 

[15357]

I want my goverment to parachute assault rifles into tibet to show our support for their independence and counter the freedom-hating communist bastards.


And I want them to have them proudly stamped: "From: Republic of Korea, mother****ers."

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Speaking of which, I just now was able to make out your avatar. has it always been a guy with a rifle?

Free Tibet and all that jazz.

 

[15357]

Well, not always, but pretty much for the past half-year, yes.


I can't be bothered to change it into something more awesome. :/

 

[Sulkdodds]

I thought you'd be more torn about this, Numbers.

On one hand, the Chinese are ostensibly evil freedom-hating commies and age-old enemies of your noble people. On the other hand, the Tibetans are hippies and rebels and anarchists and it's good and right that they should be shot in the streets like the protester dogs that you are.

You must be having a rough time of this.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Korean firearms are a peace offering!


Little does Tibet know Numbers just wants them to kill each other, so he doesn't have to.

 

[15357]

I thought you'd be more torn about this, Numbers.

On one hand, the Chinese are ostensibly evil freedom-hating commies and age-old enemies of your noble people. On the other hand, the Tibetans are hippies and rebels and anarchists and it's good and right that they should be shot in the streets like the protester dogs that you are.

You must be having a rough time of this.

Well, as I always say: "First things first."

Korean firearms are a peace offering!


Little does Tibet know Numbers just wants them to kill each other, so he doesn't have to.

Ah, damn, you saw through my master plan.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Free China!

Why are you guys looking at me like that? Was it something I said?

 

[15357]

Free China = Taiwan.
Communist China = Mainland China.

 

[Jintor]

Mindwashed bastard = Numbers.

Ah, Numbers, what would we do without you?

 

[15357]

Fall into chaos, anarchy and despair from the absence of order and justice?

 

[Eejit]

Isn't nationalism great?

 

[[Matt]]

The Chineese government told its people they were freeing the Tibetan's from a backwards feudal system.

Strangely enough its pretty much true... In no way am i defending the vile actions of the Chinese government but if Tibet were to ever become an independant state d then i would rather see a fair and democratic system of government in place than what the dalai lama and his cohorts would do with the country. :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8V7jc6kQfQ

This 2nd video seems to present a very one sided view of the situation tibet finds itself in but i thought i would post it anyhow as many of the statements it makes are valid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2vYB7fPHHw

 

[<RJMC>]

I wonder whats solaris opinion

I think china should not be so rough whit he tibetans,which I doubt will happen

 

[Solaris]

I'm not sure tbh

 

[Dan]

I wonder whats solaris opinion

I think china should not be so rough whit he tibetans,which I doubt will happen

I lost all faith in Solaris's opinion after his shameful self help website promotion in the Lounge.

 

[<RJMC>]

I lost all faith in Solaris's opinion after his shameful self help website promotion in the Lounge.

lol what?

maostalinistboys.org?

and come on solaris what you support?

independence of a land "obliterated" by another just like the case whit north ireland?
(since you seen to support any independence stuf like kosovo)

or your heroes of the red flag?

this is what I despite of politics,this left-right thing that is also in my country is stupid

maybe people have been rejecting religion and becoming atheists,but the left and right will be the religion of the future

 

[Dan]

lol what?

maostalinistboys.org?

and come on solaris what you support?

independence of a land "obliterated" by another just like the case whit north ireland?
(since you seen to support any independence stuf like kosovo)

or your heroes of the red flag?

this is what I despite of politics,this left-right thing that is also in my country is stupid

maybe people have been rejecting religion and becoming atheists,but the left and right will be the religion of the future

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140384

 

[kirovman]

I think that the violent rioters have caused a lot of people to become unsympathic to the Tibetan cause. It's pretty dispicable what some of the rioters have done to ordinary people.

Also, under the Dalai Lama the Tibetans would be in a feudalistic theocracy.

Whilst the Chinese government has been brutal in Tibet, I think things would have been just as bad if Tibet had continued in the same way, if not worse due to the absence of development.

The main problem I have though is the inability to discuss such matters with the CCP, as they silence discussion and dissent.

I too am unsure whether Tibet independence is a good thing or not.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

If they want to be independant, then they should be. Its not about development, its up to the people.

 

[kirovman]

If every independence movement was granted a country, the world would have 1000 countries, with a lot of disputed territory.
For example, there's a small part of Kosovo with a Serb majority that wants to break away from Kosovo now (or return to Serbia).

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying its a little more complex than whether the people want to or not. And development is certainly important. Living under the pre-1949 system, a large percentage of the people would be serfs, in chains. It would be different if it were to become independent now, but I think they'd struggle with independence as the land is harsh and people couldn't easily support themselves without external help. A free-Tibet is not a utopic Shangri-La that a lot of people seem to think it is.


Also, if innocent children and other innocent people were killed or beaten up in Western riots, people would be quick to condemn the rioters and ask the police to do whatever was necessary to stop them. In this case, the response is more muted. There's no excuse for that.
Now that there's been this level of violence, the Chinese government has the excuse it needs to clamp down hard. The violent rioters have caused a loss of legitamacy to their cause.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFY1j8qs9mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhjCX4KIz4Q

Here's a video and some pictures of 1939 Tibet. I know it's on a Chinese language website, but that don't change anything:

http://pop.6park.com/life2/messages/42769.html

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

 

[Gray Fox]

Just a couple of decades ago the Chinese government was killing it's own
citizens on a massive scale and were far more dangerous then the Tibetans
ever were. If the Chinese have progressed so much there is no reason not to
think the Tibetans would not have. In any case the point is, your reasoning
is flawed.

Also why would the use of violence make the cause lose legitimacy.
Did the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki make the case of the
allies any less legitimate.
The violence here was inflicted on the Tibetans own soil on the people that invaded them.
There is no security issue for china itself that isn't clearly caused by the Chinese themselves.
To me it seems only ones that would argue that, are the same ones that are
already convinced of a lack of legitimacy in the first place.

 

[kirovman]

If the Chinese have progressed so much there is no reason not to
think the Tibetans would not have.

There are many reasons, not least the lack of natural resources or links to the outside world.


I'm not saying the violence has made Tibetan independence less legitimate, I'm just saying that the perception of legitimacy may change. Especially if you have riotters caught on film beating innocents. That kind of thing tends to influence people.

Tibet's status as independent entity in the past is disputable, even the KMT party in Taiwan lays claim to Tibet and no external countries have recognised Tibet's independence.

Anyway, it is clear that China's policy of "Harmonious Society" (or whatever they call it) in Tibet has failed, and it remains to be seen what the results will be.

 

[Jintor]

It's a pity. A couple of decades of peaceful protest have done nothing, and now the anger is just out there.

That's not an excuse btw. It's just what I think is happening now.

 

[<RJMC>]

the olimpics sure are a factor too

 

[Dan]

the olimpics sure are a factor too

Olim pics?

 

[kirovman]

This is for all you doubters out there:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-03/23/content_6558906.htm

Foreigners witness the riots in Lhasa
(cctv.com)
Updated: 2008-03-23 19:02



Tibet is one of the world's most popular tourist destinations. And some foreigners who were in Lhasa were witnesses to the riots.

Janne Christian Fredrik from Sweden traveled to Lhasa on his bike a month before the riot of the 14th of March. That day, he was in his hotel on Youth Road where many shops were set on fire and looted.

So there.

 

[Dan]

Don't worry guys, it's all been taken care of: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29740

 

[bbson john]

For those who support the independence of Tibet, stop being silly. If every separatist movement is rewarded with full autonomy of their region, almost every country will break apart. Similar separatism, yet more serious than that in Tibet, happens all around the world. There are people crying for independence in Northern Ireland, CheChens, eastern Turkey. Should they be separated off from their respective countries? Seriously, no government wants their land to be torn apart. Chinese Government doesn't want so, Russian doesn't and UK's doesn't. So stop prejudicing against China.

What has been happening in Tibet is an ongoing violent demonstration, or even a riot to certain degree. Dozens polices, associated with innocent civilians, were killed by the rabbles. There was tourist being burnt alive by them. Moreover, the riot is targeted at local Han residents, who are total unrelated to the purpose of this demonstration. The demonstration in Tibet is out of control. No one should sympathise the rabbles. There is no way Beijing Government should sit back and do nothing. And no way Beijing Government should fulfill their wish, causing an indirect promotion of similar riot in other parts of the world. I believe the local Police has already tried using minimum violence in suppression of this riot.

The only thing wrong Beijing Government did so far is expelling foreign journalists from Tibet, confiscating their equipment. Perhaps the Government is doing this in line with the old way they handle similar incident. This is something an open, democratic Government should not do. The Government should just let journalists film what they what to. Apart from that, there is not much wrong with the policy applied on Tibet by Beijing Government.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

For those who support the independence of Tibet, stop being silly. If every separatist movement is rewarded with full autonomy of their region, almost every country will break apart. Similar separatism, yet more serious than that in Tibet, happens all around the world. There are people crying for independence in Northern Ireland, CheChens, eastern Turkey. Should they be separated off from their respective countries? Seriously, no government wants their land to be torn apart. Chinese Government doesn't want so, Russian doesn't and UK's doesn't. So stop prejudicing against China.

What has been happening in Tibet is an ongoing violent demonstration, or even a riot to certain degree. Dozens polices, associated with innocent civilians, were killed by the rabbles. There was tourist being burnt alive by them. Moreover, the riot is targeted at local Han residents, who are total unrelated to the purpose of this demonstration. The demonstration in Tibet is out of control. No one should sympathise the rabbles. There is no way Beijing Government should sit back and do nothing. And no way Beijing Government should fulfill their wish, causing an indirect promotion of similar riot in other parts of the world. I believe the local Police has already tried using minimum violence in suppression of this riot.

The only thing wrong Beijing Government did so far is expelling foreign journalists from Tibet, confiscating their equipment. Perhaps the Government is doing this in line with the old way they handle similar incident. This is something an open, democratic Government should not do. The Government should just let journalists film what they what to. Apart from that, there is not much wrong with the policy applied on Tibet by Beijing Government.

Your wrong, scotland wants independance from the UK, and if the majority says they want indpedance in a vote they will be granted it.

The thing I don't get is that China is massive - why does it care about Tibet.

Oh right, oppresion.

 

[bbson john]

Your wrong, scotland wants independance from the UK, and if the majority says they want indpedance in a vote they will be granted it.

That in Tibet is not majority, they are but a group of monks. Most of the demonstrators are being irrationally abetted.

The thing I don't get is that China is massive - why does it care about Tibet.

If Tibet gains independence, a wrong message will be given to other ethnicity. People will think such violent demonstration works. Further promoted by separatists and foreign powers, more and more riots will possibly emerge in other provinces of China. This is what I deem a major concern of Chinese Government.

 

[Gray Fox]

Tibet is a whole different country then your country with it's own identity.
This is not about keeping a country together, it's about colonization.
Most of your examples do not apply.

By your logic the UK,Belgium, Portugal, Spain, Holland would have had more right to keep their coloni- Oops! I mean their countries together.

 

[Mr Stabby]

If China gets Tibet, then Britain should get Hong Kong back.

 

[Dan]

China has been running Tibet since the 18th century