tookie williams

[gh0st]

will die in what... two days? unless arnold pardons him, of course.

he murdered a family in cold blood and bragged about killing another man, laughing at the sounds he made as he died. should he die? let him fry i say

 

[Raz]

It would be a wonderful culmination of his work to stop others from following in his footsteps.

 

[Icarusintel]

i hope arnold doesn;t pardon him - he killed people, he was sentenced to die, and yes, this would complete his work because it would show that you can never escape from your crimes

 

[Afterburn3r]

yes he should

 

[Absinthe]

Nope.

gh0st, I hope you realize how pathetic you are if you feel the need to tag a smiley onto the end of your statement as if this was taking place in a ****ing dreamland. Grow up.

 

[Ikerous]

I don't think he should die simply because I'm opposed to the death penalty.

However, I don't see any reason why a governor would give clemency to someone just because they wrote some children's books that said gang violence is bad. I think that sets sort of an odd precedent.

 

[gh0st]

Nope.

gh0st, I hope you realize how pathetic you are if you feel the need to tag a smiley onto the end of your statement as if this was taking place in a ****ing dreamland. Grow up.

ennui says don't use racial slurs even if you're just ****ing around. ennui thinks that's probably a good way to get a ban. whatever

oh no Absinthe from the internet thinks i'm pathetic.

i sure hope ill sleep tonight.

 

[TheSomeone]

Okay, no one even knows if he really commited those murders.

 

[gh0st]

Okay, no one even knows if he really commited those murders.

umm explain?

 

[CptStern]

he was nominated for a nobel peace prize 4 times ..he's clearly not the person he was when he commited the crimes. Oh and I wouldnt take gh0st all that seriously ..as an admitted white supremacist it's not exactly surprising that he'd laugh at the death of a black person

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

May God have mercy on his soul. Because he certainly isn't going to receive any from us after what he did.

 

[Glirk Dient]

If it is proven he did those murders and everything else ghost listed then death penalty is what he deserves as a sicko like that doesn't deserve to get out in another 10 years and do it all over again.

 

[ChiChi]

I think he deserves life. What good will it do if we kill him?

 

[JNightshade]

I actually think the death penalty is piss-poor punishment in more than one way. Besides the subhuman brutality of it, once you kill someone, they're dead. They're not being punished, they simply do not exist anymore. Their FAMILY, however, has not done anything, yet has to live with the death of a loved one. By keeping these people alive and locked up, not only do you save money and avoid needless death, you keep their families happy, and allow the chance of improvement (and Williams here clearly has improved). Let him live, I say. Let them all live.

 

[satch919]

he was nominated for a nobel peace prize 4 times ..he's clearly not the person he was when he commited the crimes. Oh and I wouldnt take gh0st all that seriously ..as an admitted white supremacist it's not exactly surprising that he'd laugh at the death of a black person

His nobel peace prize nominations doesn't redeem him of his crimes though.

He's a person that wants to live. Any of us would want to write childrens books and make speeches if it meant getting out of prison or off of death row. In abusive relationships, people claim that they've changed just so they can get what they want. A lot of criminals are manipulative.

We must all deal with the consequences of our actions. Some are worse than others but we must handle it in our own way. He knew what he was doing when he founded the rather notorious West side Crips gang though.

I think he should be executed for the crimes he committed. Perhaps such an example might make a few kids think twice about entering a life of crime.

 

[satch919]

I actually think the death penalty is piss-poor punishment in more than one way. Besides the subhuman brutality of it, once you kill someone, they're dead. They're not being punished, they simply do not exist anymore. Their FAMILY, however, has not done anything, yet has to live with the death of a loved one. By keeping these people alive and locked up, not only do you save money and avoid needless death, you keep their families happy, and allow the chance of improvement (and Williams here clearly has improved). Let him live, I say. Let them all live.

Subhuman brutality? Have you seen someone beheaded by the American Criminal Justice system? No. Those sick freaks in Iraq beheading people are subhuman. Merely giving an injection to someone is far from subhuman in the history of execution. I had my suffering dog put down in nearly the same fashion. Why should someone that murdered someone else, let alone several people, be allowed such an easy way out? I say we bring back the gas chamber for the most violent offenders.

However, more must be done to ensure that those being executed are those that did the crime. DNA and other such breakthrough technologies can aid in this process.

What about the family of those that were murdered? Where do they come into all this? You seem to be focusing on the murderers family and not those that were devastated by such a horrific crime.

America has about 2 million people locked up right now. http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aaprisonpop.htm Tell me how that's saving me money? Why are my taxes going toward building more prisons here in California? The recidivism rate is high among criminals. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/reentry/recidivism.htm

Mr. Williams is but one case of someone who claims to be rehabilitated. Improvement is scarce among career criminals.

I suggest that you talk to someone who's worked in a maximum security prison or take a tour of the place yourself to see what kind of animals we're dealing with. They're not the model citizens I want slithering about my city.

 

[SIGbastard]

he was nominated for a nobel peace prize 4 times ..he's clearly not the person he was when he commited the crimes. Oh and I wouldnt take gh0st all that seriously ..as an admitted white supremacist it's not exactly surprising that he'd laugh at the death of a black person

Yasser Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994. The Nobel Peace prize has been a joke for some time now. The Nobel Committee has pretty much made the prize an extension of its left-wing politics.

 

[Flyingdebris]

death penalty is not something you avoid giving on the grounds
"that someone reformed." They may have become the nicest person ever, it doesn't matter.

The death penalty is a consequence of that person's past actions, not of their current condition.

Cause and effect, people, thats all it is. If you kill, you stand the chance of being killed by the state. plain and simple.

 

[gh0st]

he was nominated for a nobel peace prize 4 times ..he's clearly not the person he was when he commited the crimes. Oh and I wouldnt take gh0st all that seriously ..as an admitted white supremacist it's not exactly surprising that he'd laugh at the death of a black person

i'd like to see you prove from a credible source that he was nominated for a nobel peace price... i'll give you a hint - check wikipedia. you never will because the nobel prize committee keeps nominations secret for 50 years.

plus, any party can nominate whomever they choose. so it isnt exactly a stunning reversal, nor is it an example of tremendous rehabilitation. he killed 4 people, led to the deaths of countless others ("because they're white", try wkipedia again stern i think its him whose the racist, not i). in other words, there's a mother****ing reason he hasnt WON the nobel prize yet. he was convicted of 4 murders and sentenced to die and i would be deeply resentful of arnold if he was granted clemency.

and you're right, i am racist. i hate black murderers.

 

[Glirk Dient]

I think he deserves life. What good will it do if we kill him?

Life doesn't actually mean he is in there for life. It could mean 10 years and then he would be out and do the same thing all over again. What good will that do to society?

 

[OCybrManO]

Life doesn't actually mean he is in there for life. It could mean 10 years and then he would be out and do the same thing all over again. What good will that do to society?

I don't know about California... but life in Florida is 25 years without a chance of parole. Then, typically, they don't get out as soon as it is available. On average, it's closer to 30 years. Think about just how long that is. If I were to get a life sentence I would come out in my 50s. I would have missed most of my life up to that point. Plus, when I got out I would have no job experience, no money, outdated knowledge, the stigma of being an ex-con, and I would have become accustomed to prison life... all of which would make assimilating into the outside world extremely difficult... which is why some people end up committing suicide after they get released. That is, of course, if they don't die in prison.

Then, there's the fact that executions cost more to the state than is required for the prisoners to serve a life sentence.

... and don't forget the fact that the death penalty has been shown to not have a significant deterrant effect. In fact, the places that use the death penalty tend to have higher murder rates. Weird, huh?

... and the geographically disproportionately distributed nature (even within a single state) of death sentences strongly hints at some kind of bias. In one state, a quarter of all executions stem from a region that constitutes less than 9% of the murders.

... and there have been 230+ people on death row that have been granted clemency in the past 30 years. So, obviously, we don't trust our own decisions.

... and at least 117 countries have abolished the death penalty as of 2004.

... and the top 5 executing countries of 2004 were (most to least) China, Iran, Vietnam, USA, and Saudi Arabia. We're in good company, eh?

... and even though black and white people are murdered in approximately even numbers, 80% of people executed since the death penalty was reinstated have been executed for murders involving white victims.

... and, although women commit ~10% of murders, they have historically only constituted ~1% of executions. Women can, literally, get away with murder.

As far as I can tell, the only purpose it serves is an emotional need for revenge.

 

[SIGbastard]

I never really considered the capital punishment as a deterrent. I always just considered it justice served. Using the same logic we should release all prisoners because serving time is obviously not a deterrent considering how many people are convicted every year.

 

[Javert]

umm explain?

The evidence has been destroyed.
The witness of the murders is in jail in Canada for...guess what, murder.

 

[Sainku]

The death penalty isn't a punishment it is a solution.

But how could you kill this man :afro:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Tookie.jpg

 

[DeusExMachina]

We should turn Austraila back into a prison colony ^__^.

But seriously, "an eye for an eye" crap is so last millenia. People were hung or put under the guillotine for stealing ****ing bread for chrissakes. Now, it is more order and proper punishment, but the death penalty servers nothing. The killer basically gets away clean. Oh wow, he died. 80% of the population suddenly thinks he goes to hell. That's the only reason people even believe in capital punishment because they think he'll be punished in the afterlife after his death. What we need to do is put some hell on Earth. You wanna murder people? You wanna molest children? You wanna rape women? Welcome to solitary confinement for the rest of your life. 3 times a day you will receive food. No one will talk to you. You will not be allowed outside. You will die a lonely, psychologically disturbed person. Perhaps its more barbaric or savage or less humane to people, but well...I don't give a damn.

If there is inconclusive evidence, then my above statement shall not be allowed. The man will be put in regular jail. The solitary confinement thing is only for the truly wicked and sick. Jeffrey Dahmer for example.

 

[Blackghost905]

Fry him!

 

[Absinthe]

May God have mercy on his soul. Because he certainly isn't going to receive any from us after what he did.

Speak for thyself.

Perhaps I could entertain the idea of the death penalty if there was no way of questioning his conviction, but that's not the case.

 

[SIGbastard]

Speak for thyself.

Perhaps I could entertain the idea of the death penalty if there was no way of questioning his conviction, but that's not the case.

Several former members of his gang have talked about how he used to imitate the gurgling noises a store clerk made after he shot him in the head with a sawed off shotgun. I know this isn't definitive proof, but it is pretty damning. I would say from what I have read about the case it would have to be a down right conspiracy theory for him not to be guilty.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Speak for thyself.

Perhaps I could entertain the idea of the death penalty if there was no way of questioning his conviction, but that's not the case.

This isn't a case of "he might not be guilty" at all though, it's a case where people are saying "He's a good guy now, so he shouldn't get the same sentence as before"

 

[OCybrManO]

I don't know about other people, but I was completely ignoring the fact that it is possible for him to have changed. I was just talking about the death penalty in general. Though, if he really did change it is at least worth an appeal... not necessarily for being released, but at least having the sentence dropped down to life without parole (minus the time he has already served) or something like that. If he can appeal to young people that might be following down the path he took, undo some of the damage he caused, and get them to change their ways it would be a waste not to use him for that. In that case, killing him would doom others to repeat his crimes... making his killers no better than he was. Still, it's up to the courts to decide if that is possible. In the end, it's not my call.

 

[Zeus]

he killed 4 people, led to the deaths of countless others ("because they're white", try wkipedia again stern i think its him whose the racist, not i).

its ok..he's convieniently blotting that part out

 

[Absinthe]

I don't know about other people, but I was completely ignoring the fact that it is possible for him to have changed.

Seconded.

And I honestly don't see what it would accomplish any way. He has taken major strides in trying to redeem himself and steer others away gang life. I'm not saying he should get off scot-free, but I do think execution (ignoring the wrongness I find in its principles) would only shoot any notion of rehabilitation in the foot ( yes, I do think rehabilitation is important). A wonderful culmination of his life's work? Seems to me like it would only teach younger generations that you're screwed for life no matter how much you've changed and how much good you've done. Keep on gangbanging, because it doesn't matter in the end. You're going to "fry" regardless as some dickheads would put it.

What good will that do to society?

And to put the same question to you: what benefit would his execution bring about?

 

[gh0st]

he's being punished for the crimes he was convicted of... not of the person he will be in 30 years.

if i raped your mom absinthe and was sentanced to prison for say, 15 years, and i got out in 5 because i wrote some children books, you'd be pretty pissed.

 

[Absinthe]

he's being punished for the crimes he was convicted of... not of the person he will be in 30 years.

If such is the case, then the concept of reducing sentences would have been unheard of throughout history.

That's ignoring my stance of the death penalty being primitive and archaic - its underlying philosophy something that should have been left behind in the previous century.

 

[little.rebel]

he should not be killed, but not pardoned either.

he did the crimes, although because its special case (thepeople will raise hell, if hes fried)He should serve life imprisonment until the end of his life instead.

 

[gh0st]

If such is the case, then the concept of reducing sentences would have been unheard of throughout history.

That's ignoring my stance of the death penalty being primitive and archaic - its underlying philosophy something that should have been left behind in the previous century.

in my opinion he hasent redeemed himself to the point of not getting executed. mostly is has to do with the brutal nature of the crimes themselves. killing 4 people in robberies for "little more than gas money". worse he and one other are essentially singularly responsible for the gang atmostphere in many urban areas. not to mention the copycats that have sprung up all over the world. he's a sociopath, he isnt going to recover. he isnt ever going to be a "good guy". any tool can do good deeds but he's still the same piece of shit that walked into prison. good, kill a gang icon its seriously no sweat of my balls.

and i dont care if europe doesnt have the death penalty. i really dont. the US isnt europe, and hopefully it never will be.

 

[Absinthe]

if i raped your mom absinthe and was sentanced to prison for say, 15 years, and i got out in 5 because i wrote some children books, you'd be pretty pissed.

Your sophistry doesn't gain any ground with me.

in my opinion he hasent redeemed himself to the point of not getting executed. mostly is has to do with the brutal nature of the crimes themselves. killing 4 people in robberies for "little more than gas money". worse he and one other are essentially singularly responsible for the gang atmostphere in many urban areas. not to mention the copycats that have sprung up all over the world. he's a sociopath, he isnt going to recover. he isnt ever going to be a "good guy". any tool can do good deeds but he's still the same piece of shit that walked into prison. good, kill a gang icon its seriously no sweat of my balls.

The way you can reduce life into such simplicity is astounding, gh0st. But I won't delve into that, I'll leave it at this.

-I do believe there are reasonable grounds to view his trial as somewhat suspect.
-For that reason alone, the death penalty should not be enforced.
-I do not see any benefit or justice in his execution.
-I do see a message being sent out with his execution that would only counter-act the work he's done.
-I do believe in rehabilitation and change of character.
-The death penalty is nothing more than a darker facet of human nature that should be done away with.

and i dont care if europe doesnt have the death penalty. i really dont. the US isnt europe, and hopefully it never will be.

Great. I'm sure you had a relevant point somewhere in this little sub-rant.

 

[DeusExMachina]

the US isnt europe, and hopefully it never will be.

God forbid we make any progress.

 

[OCybrManO]

Take a completely unrelated issue such as a smaller criminal being given immunity in order to get to the ring leader. They can, basically, get away with murder. What is the idea behind that? They can provide a service that is more useful to society than being punished. Their service is providing information to help the police find the source and stop more crime from being committed. It's logical. You do what gets the biggest returns in the long run. This is essentially the same idea... except, in this case, there is no one person behind the crimes... it's an entire lifestyle. Now, a geek doesn't accept computer advice from someone with no experience. Cancer patients don't go to Acoholics Anonymous for support. Similarly, the kind of people that join gangs don't want to listen to other people because they haven't experienced what their lives are like. They all turn to people in similar situations. It takes an insider to influence people. This man is an insider. He has been there. He knows exactly what they're going through. If he has truly changed, he has the best chance at helping them. I think that chance alone is enough of a mitigating factor to keep him alive. What you call "justice" (gathered from your hypothetical situation in which you rape Absinthe's mother) I call revenge. Justice would be using his life to save others. Revenge would be killing him in spite of the potential to undo some of the damage he has done.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Take a completely unrelated issue such as a smaller criminal being given immunity in order to get to the ring leader. They can, basically, get away with murder. What is the idea behind that? They can provide a service that is more useful to society than being punished. Their service is providing information to help the police find the source and stop more crime from being committed. It's logical. You do what gets the biggest returns in the long run. This is essentially the same idea... except, in this case, there is no one person behind the crimes... it's an entire lifestyle. Now, a geek doesn't accept computer advice from someone with no experience. Cancer patients don't go to Acoholics Anonymous for support. Similarly, the kind of people that join gangs don't want to listen to other people because they haven't experienced what their lives are like. They all turn to people in similar situations. It takes an insider to influence people. This man is an insider. He has been there. He knows exactly what they're going through. If he has truly changed, he has the best chance at helping them. I think that chance alone is enough of a mitigating factor to keep him alive. What you call "justice" (gathered from your hypothetical situation in which you rape Absinthe's mother) I call revenge. Justice would be using his life to save others. Revenge would be killing him in spite of the potential to undo some of the damage he has done.

very good points in there.
looks like someone here understands what the word justice really means.