tookie williams

[gh0st]

-I do believe there are reasonable grounds to view his trial as somewhat suspect.

oh? hmm who to believe.. the supreme court or absinthe.. man, tough choice.

-I do not see any benefit or justice in his execution.

ok

-I do see a message being sent out with his execution that would only counter-act the work he's done.

what ****ing work? writing a few books does not bring 4 people back, sorry. the fact that you would respect the work of a convicted and frankly ****ing brutal murderer over innocent people gunned down is ridiculous.

-I do believe in rehabilitation and change of character.

i do believe that in order to be rehabilitated you have to be punished for what youve done.

-The death penalty is nothing more than a darker facet of human nature that should be done away with.

yeah well so should murder but its not going to happen. personally i fear death more than a lifetime of imprisonment, and i imagine that when push comes to shove you would too.

Great. I'm sure you had a relevant point somewhere in this little sub-rant.

not one you could gleam i guess. how surprising!

 

[Absinthe]

oh? hmm who to believe.. the supreme court or absinthe.. man, tough choice.

The rest of your tripe isn't worth commenting on, but this inspired a response from me.

...What? I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm not even making an assertion regarding guilt. I'm saying that in the absence of 100% incontrovertible evidence, the death penalty should not be employed. If you attribute some kind of grand infallibility to the Supreme Court, than you are a bigger fool than I had previously thought.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Take a completely unrelated issue such as a smaller criminal being given immunity in order to get to the ring leader. They can, basically, get away with murder. What is the idea behind that? They can provide a service that is more useful to society than being punished. Their service is providing information to help the police find the source and stop more crime from being committed. It's logical. You do what gets the biggest returns in the long run. This is essentially the same idea... except, in this case, there is no one person behind the crimes... it's an entire lifestyle. Now, a geek doesn't accept computer advice from someone with no experience. Cancer patients don't go to Acoholics Anonymous for support. Similarly, the kind of people that join gangs don't want to listen to other people because they haven't experienced what their lives are like. They all turn to people in similar situations. It takes an insider to influence people. This man is an insider. He has been there. He knows exactly what they're going through. If he has truly changed, he has the best chance at helping them. I think that chance alone is enough of a mitigating factor to keep him alive. What you call "justice" (gathered from your hypothetical situation in which you rape Absinthe's mother) I call revenge. Justice would be using his life to save others. Revenge would be killing him in spite of the potential to undo some of the damage he has done.

Hmmm.

Good points in here. This is the only arguement that has been presented that actually gives some reason behind it besides "It's brutal lol old timers" or "It's not brutal enough, they should actually be rotting forever in torture."

Makes me ponder whether he should be or not, and whether or not he would be effective enough to merit it.

Interesting. I care nothing for him, but whether he can be harnessed for more in the end is a peculiar proposal that's pretty good.

 

[OCybrManO]

I care nothing for him

I can agree with that. If it hadn't involved the death penalty I wouldn't have been interested in it in the slightest.

 

[CptStern]

I dont understand why some of you equate not supporting capital punishment with setting the person free; it is flawed logic at best. I dont think anyone here is advocating that. Do the time for the crime but killing him is a waste. He's worth more alive than dead. If he reaches even one troubled youth it is worth leeping him alive.

 

[Absinthe]

I dont understand why some of you equate not supporting capital punishment with setting the person free; it is flawed logic at best. I dont think anyone here is advocating that. Do the time for the crime but killing him is a waste. He's worth more alive than dead. If he reaches even one troubled youth it is worth leeping him alive.

Stern, how could you talk this garbage?

You're either with us or against us! There is no middle ground!

 

[Dr. Freeman]

oh? hmm who to believe.. the supreme court or absinthe.. man, tough choice.

hmm? the supreme court never in its history has made errors? thats funny considering humans run the supreme court and its a well documented fact that humans are not perfect by a long shot.

again...just pointing out what others have said in this thread.

 

[gh0st]

The rest of your tripe isn't worth commenting on, but this inspired a response from me.

...What? I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm not even making an assertion regarding guilt. I'm saying that in the absence of 100% incontrovertible evidence, the death penalty should not be employed. If you attribute some kind of grand infallibility to the Supreme Court, than you are a bigger fool than I had previously thought.

actually there is pretty much overwhelming evidence against him. despite being convicted, denied retrial by the CA supreme court, and even denied a different sentence by the extremely liberal circuit courts in CA, he has never expressed any remorse for his crimes. i never said the supreme court is infallible, i'm saying its damn well better than anything else. our entire judicial system basically damned him - he should live because he wrote childrens books? wooo baby LET HIM FRY.

not all cases have this magical "incontrovertible" evidence. but lots of cases do have a whole lot of other kinds of evidence. he killed 4 people callously and brutally and is tricking all of you buffoons into thinking he's changed and will kill the gang lifestyle he started. i say too ****ing late, he should have been hung on the steps of the court 27 years ago.

 

[OMGjohnConnor]

What kind of name is Tookie?

 

[JNightshade]

An awesome one. Any name that rhymes with "cookie" is awesome. Besides, don't tell me you wouldn't love being called "Tookie Monster".

 

[Glirk Dient]

An awesome one. Any name that rhymes with "cookie" is awesome. Besides, don't tell me you wouldn't love being called "Tookie Monster".

Hahaha I LOLed at that.

:afro:

 

[DreadLord]

he was nominated for a nobel peace prize 4 times ..he's clearly not the person he was when he commited the crimes. Oh and I wouldnt take gh0st all that seriously ..as an admitted white supremacist it's not exactly surprising that he'd laugh at the death of a black person

Watch it, he'll call you an eskimo. :thumbs:

 

[gh0st]

Watch it, he'll call you an eskimo. :thumbs:

well he's right, but i would laugh harder if a canadian died.

 

[Glirk Dient]

I dont understand why some of you equate not supporting capital punishment with setting the person free; it is flawed logic at best. I dont think anyone here is advocating that. Do the time for the crime but killing him is a waste. He's worth more alive than dead. If he reaches even one troubled youth it is worth leeping him alive.

Because life in prison often times doesn't mean life. So you have to worry about what that criminal will do when he is released. He can not get a job with murder or prison on his record and he is not accustomed to civilization. Not to mention most criminals end up commiting another crime/murder and get locked up again. So why would we want to keep someone around when they have commited a horrendous crime? What will it benefit societ by keeping him alive? He could get set free and kill more people again and for what? Nothing.

 

[CptStern]

if they're guilty of a capital crime surely they could get the lesser sentence of life in prison for each person murdered ...he wouldnt get out in his lifetime

 

[Glirk Dient]

if they're guilty of a capital crime surely they could get the lesser sentence of life in prison for each person murdered ...he wouldnt get out in his lifetime

In theory that works but look at how many murders get out and repeat their offenses. If it weren't for a danger of them getting out and doing it all over again then there wouldn't be a need for the death penalty. As it stands there are certain criminals which commit such horrendous crimes that it would be best if they had no chance at seeing daylight again.

 

[CptStern]

In theory that works but look at how many murders get out and repeat their offenses. If it weren't for a danger of them getting out and doing it all over again then there wouldn't be a need for the death penalty. As it stands there are certain criminals which commit such horrendous crimes that it would be best if they had no chance at seeing daylight again.

if that were true then there's be a lot of potential reoffending criminals loose in states that didnt have capital punishment. In canada for example we havent had the death penalty since the 50's ..there's no evidence that since then criminals who may have a warrented a capital punishment have roamed free to continue their crimes

 

[TheSomeone]

There's really no point in Capital Punishment. Statisically, it's been shown not to deter criminals from going ahead and doing it anyways.

 

[dantewilliams]

Tookie got meez out of gang violance. looks he even has mys laft name.

 

[Glirk Dient]

if that were true then there's be a lot of potential reoffending criminals loose in states that didnt have capital punishment. In canada for example we havent had the death penalty since the 50's ..there's no evidence that since then criminals who may have a warrented a capital punishment have roamed free to continue their crimes

Well Canada for one hasn't had nearly as many horrific crimes as we have had in the states. Our media is much more violent and most of what you hear on the news is someone being killed or something equally horific/negative. Besides...I am willing to bet there HAS been in Canadas history a crime that warranted capital punishment under one of the states laws in the U.S.(besides texas).

There's really no point in Capital Punishment. Statisically, it's been shown not to deter criminals from going ahead and doing it anyways.

Statistically punishment doesn't act as much of a deterrent so capital punishment wouldn't be any different.

 

[CptStern]

Well Canada for one hasn't had nearly as many horrific crimes as we have had in the states. Our media is much more violent and most of what you hear on the news is someone being killed or something equally horific/negative.

? did you expect stories on puppie dogs and bake sales? Sure it's sensationalized but it's not like you dont have a choice. Stop watching fox"news" stop reading mainstream newspapars ..there's a lot of good journalism out there that isnt as sensationalized as most american media. Oh and canada suffers from the same sensationalism, a lot of our media comes from the US in some shape or form

Besides...I am willing to bet there HAS been in Canadas history a crime that warranted capital punishment under one of the states laws in the U.S.(besides texas).

? of course there is, we have our fair share of murderers in canada as well but I fail to see a point in your statement

Statistically punishment doesn't act as much of a deterrent so capital punishment wouldn't be any different.

well statistically speaking you should be able to provide a source :E here's mine:

"....a National Academy of Sciences panel which estimated that a 50 percent increase in the probability of incarceration prevents about twice as much violent crime as a 50 percent increase in the average term of incarceration.

....The bulk of evidence resulting from the competent use of theory and statistics supported the existence of a deterrent effect of both imprisonment risk and longer sentences."

http://www.ncpa.org/bg/bg148/bg148a.html

 

[Glirk Dient]

Your source says that punishment acts as a deterrent, I said it acted as one but not much. Here is a quote from your source.

prisoners are much more sensitive to changes in certainty than in severity of punishment. In terms of real-world application, the authors of the study speculate that "long prison terms are likely to be more impressive to lawmakers than lawbreakers."

So according to that people are more afraid of getting caught than the punishment. Makes sense...if you don't get caught it doesn't matter what the punishment is.

Here is another article. http://soc.enotes.com/does-capital-article

because most murders are unplanned and impulsive, murderers are not deterred by capital punishment. In such an emotional state, they maintain, a murderer is unlikely to think about the distant possibility of execution.

 

[CptStern]

Your source says that punishment acts as a deterrent, I said it acted as one but not much. Here is a quote from your source.



So according to that people are more afraid of getting caught than the punishment. Makes sense...if you don't get caught it doesn't matter what the punishment is.

Here is another article. http://soc.enotes.com/does-capital-article

yes but you're supporting my case because in captial punishment cases it's not a deterent ..which begs the question: is capital punishment retribution or a means to deterring crime?

 

[Glirk Dient]

yes but you're supporting my case because in captial punishment cases it's not a deterent ..which begs the question: is capital punishment retribution or a means to deterring crime?

I would say its more a mean to get rid of the people who do such harm to this society they would do more harm if left alive and given a chance to get out/escape jail.

 

[CptStern]

I would say its more a mean to get rid of the people who do such harm to this society they would do more harm if left alive and given a chance to get out/escape jail.

then why doesnt that apply to the same types of criminals in states that dont have capital punishment? why isnt there hundreds of crazed paroled killers roaming th streets looking to reoffend because they werent executed?

 

[Glirk Dient]

then why doesnt that apply to the same types of criminals in states that dont have capital punishment? why isnt there hundreds of crazed paroled killers roaming th streets looking to reoffend because they werent executed?

Hold on...let me find a story from a friend of mine.

I have never been so angry and disscusted and furious and hurt in my life. I found out today that my petifial uncle that was aressted for raping a child he knew every tuesday for 2 years was let out of jail on BAIL yesterday. I ****ing hate the court system, never in my life did I think this would happen. This guy (jeffs Boyfriend) is a third grade teacher at a Middleton Elementry school (AS OF RIGHT NOW TOO). The police are trying to get him fired but from school but his union is too strong. They beleive that he was possibly doing stuff with his students and with Jeff too. What kind of ****ed up shit is that. I would be sewing the schools ass right now if my kid went there. He hasnt been proven guilty from this poor kids testamony, and their wasnt efficiant enough evidence to lock him away. Until today. It was now found from the police pictures of my cusins on the computer of my uncle raping his children. I want to kill soemone so bad right now its unbeleiveable. My dad is so disscusted and said today "I know Jeff, I have known him for a long time, I cant even think of him doing this." I have met him a couple of times since the divorce, but I dont remeber talking to him to much. Who ever the little ****er is that let him out on bail needs to be stabbed also. Tomorrow Jeff will be re-arested and hopefully put away for life. I feel for my cusins right now, I know Kort will have to testify and its gonna kill him. He said to my aunt that his Dad will kill her (my aunt) and kill himself if he tells anyone so he doesnt want to. You dont think any of this hits close to home to you? Well Kort is 19years old, JJ is 17 and this little kid that addmitted to the raping first is 9 years old . I want to do soemthing and I feel so helpless I am shaking right now and sooooooo angry. I really neeeded to vent this and I want to kill him. I have never hated someone so bad in my life. I talked to JJ and he acts like everythings ok, just another bump in the road but I know hes hurting. Kort still wont answer the phone and I doubt he will return my phone calls. I feel for this kid so much right now and I love him to death. I send all my love to him and the rest of my family right now, I thank god my brother is living there right now to keep the family laughing at such horrible times. I hope Jeff gets his ass kicked everyday for the rest of his horrbile little life in prison for all the pain he caused.GOD HELP THIS FAMILY AND THE LITTLE BOY.

Yeah...there are people being let out of jail that go and repeat their offenses. It just doesn't make the news in cases like this. Mass murders most likely would but single murders and molestation/rape will not so people won't hear about it. If it's not on the news...nobody in America will know.

 

[CptStern]

yes but rape isnt a capital crime

 

[Glirk Dient]

yes but rape isnt a capital crime

Not unless it is children. If it is they deserve the death penalty.

 

[Solaris]

Not unless it is children. If it is they deserve the death penalty.

Bah Technicality, what if there 15 and consentual?

Peadophiles are sick, but lets just throw them in some pit and forget about them no need to introduce the horrible situations capital punishment can create becuase of these people.

 

[CptStern]

Not unless it is children. If it is they deserve the death penalty.

deserving or not it's still not a capital crime

 

[Zeus]

He was denied clemency

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4523098.stm

 

[Javert]

Arnold has rejected the plea for clemency.

 

[satch919]

Arnold has rejected the plea for clemency.

Yeah, I just saw that on MSNBC.com.

They're finally doing something that should have been done a long time ago.

 

[Absinthe]

Congratulations, Arnold. Your position of governer is now less than a joke.

 

[Icarusintel]

Congratulations, Arnold. Your position of governer is now less than a joke.

because he made a decision you don;t agree with? or because he's following what a jury decided? or maybe because he won;t save a killer's life? spare me all the talk of redemption. A jury decided that he has killed people, and whether it's 3 or 4, he killed people and you can;t just get away from past sins like that. If Arnold granted him clemency it would make a mockery of the jury decision that put him on death row and would be a dishonor to his victims and their families.

 

[satch919]

I don't like Arnold as my governor but I think this was the right decision no matter what political party it came from. The evidence was there and now he has to pay for his crimes.

 

[SIGbastard]

Glad Arnold didn't crack under pressure. There was overwhelming evidence to "tookies" guilt. He never has even owned up to his guilt or to the fact that he started the crips. To be truly reformed you have to admit guilt.

Looks like justice will be served this time.

 

[Absinthe]

because he made a decision you don;t agree with? or because he's following what a jury decided? or maybe because he won;t save a killer's life? spare me all the talk of redemption. A jury decided that he has killed people, and whether it's 3 or 4, he killed people and you can;t just get away from past sins like that. If Arnold granted him clemency it would make a mockery of the jury decision that put him on death row and would be a dishonor to his victims and their families.

Tip for the future: Don't ever reply to me, because you're a ****ing idiot.

I've explained my reasons for thinking that his execution is wrong. So if you want to put to me a series of banal rhetorical questioning, please refrain from doing so. You can **** yourself on your own time. Spare you the talk of redemption? Spare me your righteous drivel about justice and honor.

Glad Arnold didn't crack under pressure. There was overwhelming evidence to "tookies" guilt. He never has even owned up to his guilt or to the fact that he started the crips. To be truly reformed you have to admit guilt.

Looks like justice will be served this time.

If he was truly looking for an easy way out to extend his life, don't you think he would have gone ahead and admitted guilt, regardless of wether he was?

My my, the world's a sad place when you people make such gaps in rational thinking.

 

[Raz]

Congratulations, Arnold. Your position of governer is now less than a joke.

Indeed, it is now serious!

 

[little.rebel]

In theory that works but look at how many murders get out and repeat their offenses. If it weren't for a danger of them getting out and doing it all over again then there wouldn't be a need for the death penalty. As it stands there are certain criminals which commit such horrendous crimes that it would be best if they had no chance at seeing daylight again.

I know what u are saying, and it is true, but this is avery unique, publice media case here.
i think hes got too much responsibility to not do it again. He has made himself a public attention, if he ever was released and killed again, he would not only shit over all his "good deeds" but he would give a reason to everone prejudiced against him to be certain to blame him and everybody else whos suspect.