tookie williams

[^Ben]

No DNA evidence, no execution.

Simple enough.

 

[CptStern]

Tookies death isnt for closure, Tookies death will symoblize justice. If we put to death every murderer/ rapist, i garentee crime would be down. Look at Saudi Arabia, thier crime is quite low.

and cases of human rights abuses are quite high, not too mention torture/murder of political prisoners ...ya great country to aspire to

 

[Apocalypse89]

I live near Saudi Arabia and have visited it several times. It's a hell hole in just about every aspect other than crime rate.

 

[SIGbastard]

sigh ..why do you think people who are against the death penalty want to set him free ...that's just ludicrous

again it was the jailbird testimony that determined that his cxase would be a capital punishment case ..without strong testimony or witnesses they wouldnt have seeked the death penalty

There was better witnesses than Oglesby. There was an eye witness Coward and testimony from Samuel Coleman, and James and Esther Garret. I really don't think the full weight of the decision of capital punishment was weighted solely on Oglesby's testimony. There was a mountain of evidence.

Gov. Swarzenegger submitted this statement:
http://www.governor.ca.gov/govsite/pdf/press_release_2005/Williams_Clemency_Statement.pdf

Swarzenegger did a damn good job justifying his decision.
He was spot on.

 

[SIGbastard]

No DNA evidence, no execution.

Simple enough.

There was a district Judge that came to talk to my class for 2 sessions in my Fundamentals of Dentistry Class. Now obviously she mostly talked about malpractice topics but she also talked about other things. She said that shows like CSI make people have unreasonable expectations. She said that cases rarely have DNA evidence and that she has only tried two cases in all her years as a Judge that even had fingerprint evidence. Certainly this type of evidence should be used when available but it should only be used to further back up other evidence IMHO.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

I'm speaking from experience. I'm studying Criminal Justice and having read the material and listened to my instructors, I feel pretty condfident about my statements. Again, the recidivism rate among those having spent time in prison or other facilities is quite high.

sure, and i don't deny that but if there isn't a sincere effort to try and help these people then obviously, i don't need you, a lawyer or a rocket scientist to tell me these people will re-offend.

if the system does not show its willing to help individuals overcome their problems, what point is there for individuals on death row to try and do something to overcome problems and more importantly, help those who may be heading down similar paths?

people, whether in prison or in any other life situation need hope and need to know that good deeds infact do matter...if theres no hope, these people think to themselves "hey i got nothing to lose no matter what i do, good or bad so **** the system...etc" and then they perhaps go re-offend when they get the chance...

see my point? or is that too hard to follow?

 

[SIGbastard]

Stern here is what I had read in the past saying increased sentences doesn't neccessarliy serve as a deterrent: http://www.urban.org/publications/307337.html

Now I really don't have much of an opinion on the matter. I'm sure it does serve as a deterrent for some, but at the same time I doubt it means anything to others. I am all for harsh sentencing especially for violent crimes. I am for it more because I'd much rather have these guys off the street for longer periods of time for the publics safety than I am for it being a deterrent. At the same time I think the Death Penalty is an important option of the Justice System and not for reasons of being a deterrent.

 

[CptStern]

no evidence of detterence

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

"Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates."


n this study, author William Bailey speculated that if executions had a deterrent effect in Oklahoma, it would be observable by comparing murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder, such as felony-murder, stranger robbery-related killings, stranger non-felony murder, and argument-related killings, before and after the resumption of executions. Bailey examined the period between 1989 and 1991 for total killings and sub-types of killing. After controlling for a number of variables, Bailey found that there was no evidence for a deterrent effect.



...Since the death penalty was reinstated, over 80% of all executions have occurred in the South, the region with the highest murder rate. The Northeast, the region with the lowest murder rate, has accounted for less than 1% of the executions.


Justice Department news briefing, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno said that she has yet to find any evidence that the death penalty deters crime. "I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent. And I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point,"


Homicide Rates Fall in Canada After Abolition of Death Penalty

The abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976 has not led to increased homicide rates. Statistics Canada reports that the number of homicides in Canada in 2001 (554) was 23% lower than the number of homicides in 1975 (721), the year before the death penalty was abolished. In addition, homicide rates in Canada are generally three times lower than homicide rates in the U.S., which uses the death penalty. For example, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, the homicide rate in the U.S. in 1999 was 5.7 per 100,000 population and the rate in Canada was only 1.8. Canada currently sentences those convicted of murder to life sentences with parole eligibility. (Issues Direct.com, 8/4/02).


and on and on and on

 

[SIGbastard]

no evidence of detterence

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

"Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates."


n this study, author William Bailey speculated that if executions had a deterrent effect in Oklahoma, it would be observable by comparing murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder, such as felony-murder, stranger robbery-related killings, stranger non-felony murder, and argument-related killings, before and after the resumption of executions. Bailey examined the period between 1989 and 1991 for total killings and sub-types of killing. After controlling for a number of variables, Bailey found that there was no evidence for a deterrent effect.



...Since the death penalty was reinstated, over 80% of all executions have occurred in the South, the region with the highest murder rate. The Northeast, the region with the lowest murder rate, has accounted for less than 1% of the executions.


Justice Department news briefing, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno said that she has yet to find any evidence that the death penalty deters crime. "I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent. And I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point,"


Homicide Rates Fall in Canada After Abolition of Death Penalty

The abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976 has not led to increased homicide rates. Statistics Canada reports that the number of homicides in Canada in 2001 (554) was 23% lower than the number of homicides in 1975 (721), the year before the death penalty was abolished. In addition, homicide rates in Canada are generally three times lower than homicide rates in the U.S., which uses the death penalty. For example, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, the homicide rate in the U.S. in 1999 was 5.7 per 100,000 population and the rate in Canada was only 1.8. Canada currently sentences those convicted of murder to life sentences with parole eligibility. (Issues Direct.com, 8/4/02).


and on and on and on

I fully agree with you that the death penalty is not a good deterrent. I already said I don't think it is important as one. I think it is just punishment for some crimes. I also think it will help the victims families get closure. It brings closure to society for some cases.

 

[CptStern]

then why have it in the first place? ...it's a barbaric practice that should have gone away with segregation and slavery

 

[dantewilliams]

whats barbaric is allowing a man that slayed 4 innocent people live.

 

[SIGbastard]

I fully agree with you that the death penalty is not a good deterrent. I already said I don't think it is important as one. I think it is a just punishment for some crimes. I also think it will help the victims families get closure. It brings closure to society for some cases.

Edited to add it's a just punishment for some crimes not just a punishment. I had a typo.

 

[Absinthe]

whats barbaric is allowing a man that slayed 4 innocent people live.

And thus, killing more people creates a solution, am i rite?

You have no idea what the definition of barbaric is, do you?

 

[CptStern]

whats barbaric is allowing a man that slayed 4 innocent people live.

yet re-electing a person responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people is ok? man you have your priorities all screwed up

 

[SIGbastard]

And thus, killing more people creates a solution, am i rite?

You have no idea what the definition of barbaric is, do you?

I have an idea what it is:

Albert Owens: Age 26.
7-11 clerk shot in the back by Tookie Williams during a robbery, February 1979. Mr. Owens, father of two small children, was forced at gunpoint into a back storeroom, made to kneel on the floor, then Tookie shot him in the back at close range, execution style. Afterward, an accomplice-turned-informer said Williams boasted that he "blew some white guy away, shot him in the back"... all for $63.

Yen-I Yang: Age 76.
Taiwanese immigrant and owner of his family-run Brookhaven Motel, shot by Tookie Williams during a robbery, March 1979.

Yu-Chin Yang Lin: 43.
Daughter of Yen-I Yang and Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, also murdered by Tookie Williams. She had just immigrated from Taiwan to join her parents in helping them with their motel business.

So where were the Hollywood stars and candlelight vigils for those victims????

Tookie Williams: posing in San Quentin Prison.

 

[SIGbastard]

yet re-electing a person responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people is ok? man you have your priorities all screwed up

This is pertinent because??

 

[Solaris]

I fully agree with you that the death penalty is not a good deterrent. I already said I don't think it is important as one. I think it is just punishment for some crimes. I also think it will help the victims families get closure. It brings closure to society for some cases.

The best way for closure is forgiveness. Ask any psycologist.

 

[CptStern]

This is pertinent because??

what you dont think it at all hypocritical?

 

[Absinthe]

Congrats, SIG. You completely sidestepped my point.

I'm not disputing the crimes or their depravity. I'm saying that one more death doesn't reverse them, it doesn't solve anything, it's just that: one more death. Nothing more.

Your cunning sideswipe has failed.

 

[Absinthe]

And let's get one thing clear.

You don't speak for the victims' families. So before you start rattling off some bullshit about closure, remember that. Last I checked, not everybosdy was thirsting for his blood.

 

[SIGbastard]

And let's get one thing clear.

You don't speak for the victims' families. So before you start rattling off some bullshit about closure, remember that. Last I checked, not everybosdy was thirsting for his blood.

I never said I do speak for them, but it is widely accepted that the death penalty does bring closure to the victims family.

I simply posted the pics because I don't think alot of people with an opinion on this case have even seen them.

 

[SIGbastard]

I have an idea what it is:

Albert Owens: Age 26.
7-11 clerk shot in the back by Tookie Williams during a robbery, February 1979. Mr. Owens, father of two small children, was forced at gunpoint into a back storeroom, made to kneel on the floor, then Tookie shot him in the back at close range, execution style. Afterward, an accomplice-turned-informer said Williams boasted that he "blew some white guy away, shot him in the back"... all for $63.

Yen-I Yang: Age 76.
Taiwanese immigrant and owner of his family-run Brookhaven Motel, shot by Tookie Williams during a robbery, March 1979.

Yu-Chin Yang Lin: 43.
Daughter of Yen-I Yang and Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, also murdered by Tookie Williams. She had just immigrated from Taiwan to join her parents in helping them with their motel business.

So where were the Hollywood stars and candlelight vigils for those victims????

Tookie Williams: posing in San Quentin Prison.

I just wanted to bring this over to this page. It will not be see by very many people as the last post of the last page.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Just in case you didn't know, there is an 'edit' button. This allows you to 'edit' your posts, as long as you choose to 'edit' within 24 hours of writing the original post. :/

 

[Absinthe]

I never said I do speak for them, but it is widely accepted that the death penalty does bring closure to the victims family.

Widely accepted? Can you back that with anything?

 

[Solaris]

I never said I do speak for them, but it is widely accepted that the death penalty does bring closure to the victims family.

I simply posted the pics because I don't think alot of people with an opinion on this case have even seen them.

Complete crap there.

It is not at all widely accepted, in fact it can often be more damagin to the victims families, with all the hate that still exists after the execution, forgiveness is the best way to go.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Complete crap there.

It is not at all widely accepted, in fact it can often be more damagin to the victims families, with all the hate that still exists after the execution, forgiveness is the best way to go.

I am not sure the families are going to forgive tookie for murdering their loved ones...for $63.

 

[Absinthe]

Interesting thing I read in this article.

"Sister Helen Prejean, a Roman Catholic nun and prominent death penalty opponent, compared the death penalty to "gang justice."

"Gang justice is, if you kill a member of our gang, we kill you -- and don't tell me anything about how you changed your life or what you're going to do," she said. "You kill, and we kill you. And that's what the United States of America is doing with this."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution/index.html

So can anybody make a distinction here between the state-sponsored execution and this?

 

[Glirk Dient]

Oh noes! Gangs kill people and we have the death penalty! Just because some negative organization uses it means it is wrong! Gang members also drink water and eat food! Crap...now I can't do that because its wrong!

 

[Absinthe]

Oh noes! Gangs kill people and we have the death penalty! Just because some negative organization uses it means it is wrong! Gang members also drink water and eat food! Crap...now I can't do that because its wrong!

Hey, if you want to be ridiculous, you're more than welcome to it. But unless you can make a decent argument distinguishing the two, your words are worth nothing.

In both cases, killing is used as a form of revenge/justice, regardless of any doings post-crime. The only difference I see is that one is brokered by politicians in nice suits and the other wears a hoodie.

 

[Solaris]

I am not sure the families are going to forgive tookie for murdering their loved ones...for $63.

I saw a show on TV about forgiveness.

It showed some parents whoose son was walking home one night and was just randomly attacked by a group of youths and killed, they just kicked him to death, and left him.
We saw how distraught and upset she was, for months she was really sad and angry. Then here husband choose to forgive the Lads who were now in prison, his wife was really angry at him for this, until she saw his way and forgave them too, they both wrote the lads in prison a letter telling the lads they forgave them. All though they had still lost a son, they were mentally healthy and could continue with there lives, something that killing the lads could never have brought them.

 

[Raz]

I'm going to kill your family, Solaris. I'm sure you won't mind, because forgiveness is the way to go after all. Your post proves absolutely nothing because it is about an isolated event that may or may not be representative of the whole and you close it off with pure conjecture.

 

[satch919]

sure, and i don't deny that but if there isn't a sincere effort to try and help these people then obviously, i don't need you, a lawyer or a rocket scientist to tell me these people will re-offend.

if the system does not show its willing to help individuals overcome their problems, what point is there for individuals on death row to try and do something to overcome problems and more importantly, help those who may be heading down similar paths?

people, whether in prison or in any other life situation need hope and need to know that good deeds infact do matter...if theres no hope, these people think to themselves "hey i got nothing to lose no matter what i do, good or bad so **** the system...etc" and then they perhaps go re-offend when they get the chance...

see my point? or is that too hard to follow?

What about all those programs that try to help convicts integrate back into society? Are those people not sincere? The help is out there. Could it be funded a lot more? Yes, there's some work to be done but it's a start.

I remember watching a video in my Correctional Law class and it followed the release of a prisoner and the help that followed him to integrate back into his community. They found him a job and got him a place to stay so he could start getting back on his feet. Within a week or so, the guy was fired from his job and back to getting involved in criminal activity. This rehabilitation program can't work if there isn't the drive from both sides.

This becomes a lot bigger issue as well. There are youth programs in place to help kids stay out of trouble so that they don't turn into those career criminals but at the same time, it's also the parents responsibility. So unless there's a change in that area, we're gonna be dealing with those bad eggs.

A lot of people know at a very young age that good deeds matter. Society as a whole preaches that concept whether you're religious or not. If you know the difference between right and wrong and you still commit the crime, who's to blame?

On a side note, a lot of these prisoners see "getting help" as a sign of weakness and will not pursue it. You're going to have a hard time trying to rehabilitate someone that doesn't want to participate.

Again, we all have to deal with the consequences of our actions. Most of those actions were voluntary and there's no one else to blame but ourselves. Murder should carry with it strict and tough consequences.

 

[Solaris]

I'm going to kill your family, Solaris. I'm sure you won't mind, because forgiveness is the way to go after all. Your post proves absolutely nothing because it is about an isolated event that may or may not be representative of the whole and you close it off with pure conjecture.

I would be very angry and sad for a good time I am sure, but I hope I could recover and become mentally healthy.

Show me one retuatable Psychologist who supports than executing someone can provide solace and aid recovery.

 

[satch919]

then why have it in the first place? ...it's a barbaric practice that should have gone away with segregation and slavery

Barbaric practice? What's barbaric about first swabbing the guys arm with alcohol, placing a needle in the arm, and injecting a fluid into the veins. I stated it earlier and I'll say it again. My dog, whom I loved dearly, was put down in the same way. It was very peaceful way to go. I stayed with him in the vet's office until he just closed his eyes and his little heart stopped beating. There was no spasming, frothing at the mouth, blood, or bodily fluids. Just a quiet passing.

Would you call that barbaric as well?

I'm not trying to be an ass about it because I like you and I agree with a ton of things you say but this really bugged the hell outta me.

 

[CptStern]

Barbaric practice? What's barbaric about first swabbing the guys arm with alcohol, placing a needle in the arm, and injecting a fluid into the veins. I stated it earlier and I'll say it again. My dog, whom I loved dearly, was put down in the same way. It was very peaceful way to go. I stayed with him in the vet's office until he just closed his eyes and his little heart stopped beating. There was no spasming, frothing at the mouth, blood, or bodily fluids. Just a quiet passing.

Would you call that barbaric as well?

I'm not trying to be an ass about it because I like you and I agree with a ton of things you say but this really bugged the hell outta me.

an eye for an eye is as outdated a justice system as public stoning


there is no form of restitution except that of the flesh. It just boils down to nothing more than retribution as it doesnt serve as a deterrent and sends a clear message to ALL criminals ...rehabilitation is meaningless in the eyes of the law.

 

[Solaris]

Barbaric practice? What's barbaric about first swabbing the guys arm with alcohol, placing a needle in the arm, and injecting a fluid into the veins. I stated it earlier and I'll say it again. My dog, whom I loved dearly, was put down in the same way. It was very peaceful way to go. I stayed with him in the vet's office until he just closed his eyes and his little heart stopped beating. There was no spasming, frothing at the mouth, blood, or bodily fluids. Just a quiet passing.

Would you call that barbaric as well?

I'm not trying to be an ass about it because I like you and I agree with a ton of things you say but this really bugged the hell outta me.

The dog isn't awhere of its own existance and it had to be put down.
A human life is of more value and there is no need for it to be ended.

 

[satch919]

an eye for an eye is as outdated a justice system as public stoning

there is no form of restitution except that of the flesh. It just boils down to nothing more than retribution as it doesnt serve as a deterrent and sends a clear message to ALL criminals ...rehabilitation is meaningless in the eyes of the law.

You didn't answer my question though. Do you still view the death of my dog as barbaric? Afterall, both Stanley Williams and my dog died the same way.

The dog isn't awhere of its own existance and it had to be put down.
A human life is of more value and there is no need for it to be ended.

Your first statement is arguable. Most biologists agree that there's tons that we don't understand about animals and it's sense of self.

So you're saying that a human life, and in this case, Stanley Williams' life was of more value? If Mr. Williams hadn't even existed then we probably wouldn't be facing the Crips gang and four people would be alive, each of which was loved by someone else. My dog brought joy to myself, my family, and anyone else that came into contact with him and you still say that Mr. Williams life was of more value? Where's the logic in that?

What if you were presented with the option of ending an organism's life? You had a murderer on one hand and a loving, wouldn't hurt a fly, dog? Who's life would you end? What's more valuable?

 

[Solaris]

So you're saying that a human life, and in this case, Stanley Williams' life was of more value? If Mr. Williams hadn't even existed then we probably wouldn't be facing the Crips gang and four people would be alive, each of which was loved by someone else. My dog brought joy to myself, my family, and anyone else that came into contact with him and you still say that Mr. Williams life was of more value? Where's the logic in that?

Williams was inspiration to millions, and won a nobel peave prize I belive that makes him > youre dog.

 

[Absinthe]

Murder should carry with it strict and tough consequences.

Nobody is saying otherwise. God damnit, you and your ****ing misrepresentations.

And your comparison to animals is dubious. They are subjected to far different practices and treatment because they are considered inequal to humans. So please, don't pursue this stupid line of reasoning further.

 

[satch919]

Williams was inspiration to millions, and won a nobel peave prize I belive that makes him > youre dog.

No, he didn't win a Nobel Peace Prize. Besides if he was such an inspiration why are we still having trouble with gangs. Apparently that inspiration was a little thin. He'll be forgotten in a few weeks.