tookie williams

[Solaris]

Nominated then.

 

[satch919]

And your comparison to animals is dubious. They are subjected to far different practices and treatment because they are considered inequal to humans. So please, don't pursue this stupid line of reasoning further.

Dogs are animals and we are animals. Shouldn't they be treated with the same kind of respect and compassion? We still prosecute people who mistreat their animals.

Why is this a stupid line of reasoning? This stemmed from Stern calling this execution "barbaric". I said that my dog was put down the same way and I wanted to know if that would be considered barbaric as well. Valid question right? Then Solaris commented that human life, in reference to Williams, was of more value than my dog who had never hurt anyone. So I responded to it. Stupid? No. Thought provoking? Yes.

Nobody is saying otherwise. God damnit, you and your ****ing misrepresentations.

Easy there tiger. I was just making a statement that wasn't directed at any one particular person. Just a simple statement. Wow.

 

[SIGbastard]

Just in case you didn't know, there is an 'edit' button. This allows you to 'edit' your posts, as long as you choose to 'edit' within 24 hours of writing the original post. :/

Yea I know. I actually meant to edit it. I selected the wrong button. It still had the same effect as far as conveying my point so I just left it.

 

[satch919]

Nominated then.

As it turns out, it's quite easy to be nominated. He was also declined all 3 or 4 times it was presented to the Nobel Foundation.

A radio show host here in CA wanted to see how easy it was to be nominated. He was later nominated for the award.

 

[Griz]

death penalty is not something you avoid giving on the grounds
"that someone reformed." They may have become the nicest person ever, it doesn't matter.

The death penalty is a consequence of that person's past actions, not of their current condition.

Cause and effect, people, thats all it is. If you kill, you stand the chance of being killed by the state. plain and simple.

If whether or not someone is reformed has no bearing on their receiving capital punishment then why not execute them immediately after they're convicted? Surely that would save a great deal of money spent in housing such convicts instead of executing them after 25+ years of imprisonment - absolutely senseless imo.

 

[satch919]

If whether or not someone is reformed has no bearing on their receiving capital punishment then why not execute them immediately after they're convicted?

The courts. Once an appeal has been made, they have to review the case and decide whether or not there is sufficient evidence to hear it. Courts are swamped with cases as it is. If you try to move cases too fast, evidence might be overlooked and corners might be cut. Not the best thing for the justice system.

 

[CptStern]

You didn't answer my question though. Do you still view the death of my dog as barbaric? Afterall, both Stanley Williams and my dog died the same way.

so you put down your perfectly healthy dog? ...you're kinda comparing apples with oranges here

 

[satch919]

so you put down your perfectly healthy dog? ...you're kinda comparing apples with oranges here

Nope. But they died the same way right? Same practice. Same way of ending a life. So is that form of ending a life barbaric?

 

[CptStern]

Nope. But they died the same way right? Same practice. Same way of ending a life. So is that form of ending a life barbaric?

one is humanitarian one is not ...I will euthanize my dog when the time comes but I dont believe in capital punishment ..they're not related in the least

it's like the difference between assisted suicide and murder ..one implies consent the other doesnt

 

[satch919]

one is humanitarian one is not ...I will euthanize my dog when the time comes but I dont believe in capital punishment ..they're not related in the least

it's like the difference between assisted suicide and murder ..one implies consent the other doesnt

Im talking stictly about the practice itself. The actual injection.

Besides, some religious people and others think assisted suicide is murder.

 

[Absinthe]

Dogs are animals and we are animals. Shouldn't they be treated with the same kind of respect and compassion? We still prosecute people who mistreat their animals.

Why is this a stupid line of reasoning? This stemmed from Stern calling this execution "barbaric". I said that my dog was put down the same way and I wanted to know if that would be considered barbaric as well. Valid question right? Then Solaris commented that human life, in reference to Williams, was of more value than my dog who had never hurt anyone. So I responded to it. Stupid? No. Thought provoking? Yes.

Flies are animals too, but we don't call foul when somebody arms themselves with a flyswatter. And the sentence given to somebody who has killed their dog is far less severe than one given to somebody who killed a person. That's the undisputable fact, regardless of biology. If you want to pursue that further, then make a different topic about it. But as it stands, the justice system does not treat other animals as comparable to humans.

You focus far too much on the method of execution. Should I recieve a lesser sentence if I drugged somebody into Happyland and then snuffed them with a pillow as opposed to simply cut their head off? It's end result that matters: the murder of your fellow man. That is the barbarism.

 

[CptStern]

Im talking stictly about the practice itself. The actual injection.

Besides, some religious people and others think assisted suicide is murder.

yes but some religious people believe that the universe is only 6000 years old

the method is immaterial it's the whole "execution for the sake of retribution" that I dont agree with. I dont subscribe to that outdated notion of "an eye for an eye"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

as an admitted white supremacist it's not exactly surprising that he'd laugh at the death of a black person

Admitted ...? Source?

 

[CptStern]

I've posted it a few times I'm not going to bother searching for it again ...damn sometimes you people are just plain lazy

 

[satch919]

yes but some religious people believe that the universe is only 6000 years old

the method is immaterial it's the whole "execution for the sake of retribution" that I dont agree with. I dont subscribe to that outdated notion of "an eye for an eye"

We all know about those religious nuts.

I understand you view on punishment. I just want a yes or no answer to my original question Stern.

 

[CptStern]

of whether or not lethal injection is humane? of course it is ..next to hanging or public stoning ..but put it up against something like life in prison with no chance of parole and it looks like what it is: a barbaric practice best left to punative regimes instead of enlightened ones

 

[satch919]

Flies are animals too, but we don't call foul when somebody arms themselves with a flyswatter. And the sentence given to somebody who has killed their dog is far less severe than one given to somebody who killed a person. That's the undisputable fact, regardless of biology. If you want to pursue that further, then make a different topic about it. But as it stands, the justice system does not treat other animals as comparable to humans.

You focus far too much on the method of execution. Should I recieve a lesser sentence if I drugged somebody into Happyland and then snuffed them with a pillow as opposed to simply cut their head off? It's end result that matters: the murder of your fellow man. That is the barbarism.

Just the fact that people are prosecuted means something though. A while back, there were little to no laws on animal cruelty.

I focus on the method of execution only because it's relevant to the discussion. Would you call Mr. Williams your "fellow" man? I sure wouldn't. He doesn't represent the whole of society.

 

[Direwolf]

My own view is that its one of those practices thats going to have to fade away gradually, since its been around for so long. In the meantime, it might as well be as humane as possible.

 

[satch919]

of whether or not lethal injection is humane? of course it is ..next to hanging or public stoning ..but put it up against something like life in prison with no chance of parole and it looks like what it is: a barbaric practice best left to punative regimes instead of enlightened ones

That wasn't my original question. I'll post it again.

Barbaric practice? What's barbaric about first swabbing the guys arm with alcohol, placing a needle in the arm, and injecting a fluid into the veins. I stated it earlier and I'll say it again. My dog, whom I loved dearly, was put down in the same way. It was very peaceful way to go. I stayed with him in the vet's office until he just closed his eyes and his little heart stopped beating. There was no spasming, frothing at the mouth, blood, or bodily fluids. Just a quiet passing.

Would you call that barbaric as well?

I'm not trying to be an ass about it because I like you and I agree with a ton of things you say but this really bugged the hell outta me.

 

[CptStern]

I thought I answered it here:


"of whether or not lethal injection is humane? of course it is ..next to hanging or public stoning ..but put it up against something like life in prison with no chance of parole and it looks like what it is: a barbaric practice best left to punative regimes instead of enlightened ones"

 

[Solaris]

Stern isn't saying that the problem is that they are killing him with lethal injection, its that there killing him at all.

I say they should have released him.

 

[Raz]

But of course. Why not abolish prisons altogether! Release all the mass murderers and rapists! I'm sure that if we're all forgiving and chant happy songs the world won't be worse off with them!

 

[Solaris]

But of course. Why not abolish prisons altogether! Release all the mass murderers and rapists! I'm sure that if we're all forgiving and chant happy songs the world won't be worse off with them!

I think its pretty obvious hes reformed.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I think its pretty obvious hes reformed.

Really? You guys chums? You hang out a lot? You know him personally?

Oh? You don't?

Oh ok.

 

[Raz]

Yep, he reformed alright. After all, he never confessed to the murders and never told the authorities about the inner workings of his gang. Nominated for a nobel peace prize you say? Yeah, but so was Yasser Arafat and he actually won. The prize has been a joke ever since. Why, he wrote children's books! Surely that makes up for slaughtering four people!

 

[CptStern]

he is reformed in the sense that he isnt the same person who entered the judicial system 25 odd years ago ...but that doesnt mean he still shouldnt do the the time for the crime he committed ..I have always advocated for life without parole even though he had begun making restitution to society ..frankly he was better off in prison as he made more contributions to society while in the joint than out


k I'm sick of hearing you guys say this: explain fully why you think the Nobel prize is corrupt WITHOUT mentioning Yasser arafat ..not that I'd get a straight answer as to why you dont believe arafat should have received the nobel prize

 

[satch919]

I thought I answered it here:


"of whether or not lethal injection is humane? of course it is ..next to hanging or public stoning ..but put it up against something like life in prison with no chance of parole and it looks like what it is: a barbaric practice best left to punative regimes instead of enlightened ones"

But what I'm asking is: The same practice of ending one's life is similar. Would you call me barbaric for using the same method? It's still a lethal injection.

I'd be interested to hear your views on assisted suicide. But that's a topic for another time.

 

[Raz]

To be honest, I think it's ridiculous to sentence someone to death and then carry out that sentence 25 years later. The appeal process needs to go a lot speedier I think.

 

[CptStern]

I believe in assisted suicide but again it's like comparing apples to oranges



guys I cant keep up, I've been quoted dozens of times today and I'm neglecting my work ..I cant possibly answer you all

/stern has meltdown

 

[dantewilliams]

This debate has grow to nothing more than a few isolated ideas of how things should be.

here are the facts:

-Albert Owens, the night manager of a 7-11 who was 26-years-old when Williams forced him to kneel to the ground before shooting him twice in the back with a 12-gauge shotgun. Owens left behind two daughters.

-Williams later told a friend that he killed Owens "because he was white?" Williams boasted about the killing to his own brother, bragging, "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," before laughing hysterically as he mimicked the dying man's struggles for breath?

-Yen-I Yang, 76, his wife, Tsai-Shai Yang, 63, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, 43, were shot at point blank range. Yee-Chen Lin had the left side of her face blown completely away, yet somehow lived for a couple of hours in agony.Williams later bragged about "blowing away" the family, whom he described as "Buddhaheads."

-There is no evidence that a single thing Williams has "written" has convinced a single kid not to join a street gang. With that said there is overwhelming evidence that Tookie the Dookie killed 4 people.

Those are the facts, I do support his death. were not debating the death penelty here, were debating if tookie should be granted clemency, which he wasnt, and he died hours ago. THANK GOD

 

[CptStern]

k one more

heh you dont see the irony of rejoicing in the death of another human being and then thanking god for it ..I thought jesus was a loving god not a vengeful one

 

[Raz]

You might be reading too much into that, Stern. I'm not religious and I say thank god too, just like I say jesus christ and goddamn.

 

[satch919]

he is reformed in the sense that he isnt the same person who entered the judicial system 25 odd years ago ...but that doesnt mean he still shouldnt do the the time for the crime he committed ..I have always advocated for life without parole even though he had begun making restitution to society ..frankly he was better off in prison as he made more contributions to society while in the joint than out

But he still dabbled in assaulting correctional officers and other inmates though. I think as recently as 1994.

I just think his books and such were all done in an attempt to get out and not because he was sincere. Inmates engage in this behavior when they're about to come up for parole. They play Mr. Nice-Guy but once they're out, they're back to the same game that got them their in the first place. (this isn't aimed at you stern)

 

[dantewilliams]

k one more

heh you dont see the irony of rejoicing in the death of another human being and then thanking god for it ..I thought jesus was a loving god not a vengeful one

avoiding my facts stern lets not debate god, lets debate tookie

and when did i say i believed in jesus, dont assume stern, how do you know im not muslim, jewish, or any other religion.

Not to mention your right jesus isnt vengeful, he wouldnt want tookie to die. However im human, and im vengeful.

 

[satch919]

I believe in assisted suicide but again it's like comparing apples to oranges



guys I cant keep up, I've been quoted dozens of times today and I'm neglecting my work ..I cant possibly answer you all

/stern has meltdown

*slaps forehead*

But assisted suicide uses the same method!

I've spent too much time on this thread. I need something a lot more light hearted for a while. People know where I stand so that's it. Good debates though.

 

[Absinthe]

*slaps forehead*

But assisted suicide uses the same method!

You entirely ignore the intent behind the method in both these instances.

You have completely hung yourself up on an irrelevance. If you have an actual substantial point, I'd reccomend getting to it.

 

[satch919]

You entirely ignore the intent behind the method in both these instances.

You have completely hung yourself up on an irrelevance. If you have an actual substantial point, I'd reccomend getting to it.

I know the intent is different but the ACT, PRACTICE, and METHOD are all the SAME! How can you be against the "barbaric" act of administering the lethal injection to a criminal and for assisted suicide? He claimed that ending the life of a criminal is barbaric but when it comes to assisted suicide, it's okay?

I swear it's like talking to a brick wall.

You made up you mind long ago that you wouldn't care about an "actual substantial point" from me just because I disagree with you. Don't pretend that you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs waiting for a "substantial point".

 

[Absinthe]

I know the intent is different but the ACT, PRACTICE, and METHOD are all the SAME! How can you be against the "barbaric" act of administering the lethal injection to a criminal and for assisted suicide? He claimed that ending the life of a criminal is barbaric but when it comes to assisted suicide, it's okay?

I swear it's like talking to a brick wall.

You made up you mind long ago that you wouldn't care about an "actual substantial point" from me just because I disagree with you. Don't pretend that you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs waiting for a "substantial point".

I viciously punch and kick a punching bag.
I viciously punch and kick a human being.

Which one constitutes barbarism, do you think?

The act itself is meaningless, requiring intent and direction if you're going to ascribe anything meaningful to it. Perhaps you wouldn't feel like your talking to a wall if you just recognized this. Again, you are far too hooked up on the method itself, showing total disregard to its usage within varying contexts.
But let's just get up front with this. No, there is nothing barbaric about physician-assisted suicide because that decision is entirely up to the person wishing to end their life.

 

[satch919]

I viciously punch and kick a punching bag.
I viciously punch and kick a human being.

Which one constitutes barbarism, do you think?

The act itself is meaningless, requiring intent and direction if you're going to ascribe anything meaningful to it. Perhaps you wouldn't feel like your talking to a wall if you just recognized this.

The act is meaningless? In either case, you intend on ending someone's life. That's pretty profound if you ask me.

You're trying to find stuff to argue about aren't you?

Since you edited your post, it shows that you didn't fully understand what was being argued. Go back and re-read all that was said between Stern and myself. Most, if not all, that was said was questioning his beliefs, not yours. He made the statement, not you. I don't think you can answer for him.

But what does it matter? You wouldn't admit to any valid point that I have because you can't understand that someone might be challenging your beliefs.

 

[Absinthe]

The act is meaningless? In either case, you intend on ending someone's life. That's pretty profound if you ask me.

You're trying to find stuff to argue about aren't you?

Even the act of ending somebody's life can be misrepresented in a number of ways, thus requiring context before judgments are passed. Raping and murdering somebody as opposed to killing in self-defense. A difference, wouldn't you think so?

Since you edited your post, it shows that you didn't fully understand what was being argued. Go back and re-read all that was said between Stern and myself.

1.) What are you talking about.

2.) Don't assume you know why I go back and edit posts. Most of the time, it's just typos.