tookie williams

[satch919]

Even the act of ending somebody's life can be misrepresented in a number of ways, thus requiring context before judgments are passed. Raping and murdering somebody as opposed to killing in self-defense. A difference, wouldn't you think so?

True, someone's death can be misrepresented or misinterrpreted. But, in this particular case, it's as clear as crystal. But what does this have to do with the fact that lethal injections are administered in either case? One is looked at as barbaric and the other, humane? Sure, they did different things to get there but they're recieving the same treatment.

1.) What are you talking about.

2.) Don't assume you know why I go back and edit posts. Most of the time, it's just typos.

When I went to quote your response in another window, you had added more to your post. The contents of that addition made it clear that you didn't understand what I was asking and how it got there.

In this case, I know why you edited your post. You added more. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just what was actually said makes me realize your confusion.

 

[Absinthe]

True, someone's death can be misrepresented or misinterrpreted. But, in this particular case, it's as clear as crystal. But what does this have to do with the fact that lethal injections are administered in either case? One is looked at as barbaric and the other, humane? Sure, they did different things to get there but they're recieving the same treatment.

If my understanding of your argument with Stern is correct (and yes, I have read it all), then the issue is not with the injection, but what it's being used for.

When I went to quote your response in another window, you had added more to your post. The contents of that addition made it clear that you didn't understand what I was asking and how it got there.

In this case, I know why you edited your post. You added more. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just what was actually said makes me realize your confusion.

Please reference exactly what additions were made.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I dont understand why some of you equate not supporting capital punishment with setting the person free; it is flawed logic at best. I dont think anyone here is advocating that. Do the time for the crime but killing him is a waste. He's worth more alive than dead. If he reaches even one troubled youth it is worth leeping him alive.

Because life in prison isn't as completely, and utterly horrible as some people here would like to imagine. It's not a lifetime of solitary confinement or being stuck in 'the hole', it's being among the prison population/society.

 

[satch919]

If my understanding of your argument with Stern is correct (and yes, I have read it all), then the issue is not with the injection, but what it's being used for.



Please reference exactly what additions were made.

EDIT-Wait, the issue is over the injection. I was talking about the practice of giving the injection!! Well, there's the problem right there!!!!

Well of course he's right because you wouldn't possibly disagree with him because your argument would fall apart.

The additions that were made:

Again, you are far too hooked up on the method itself, showing total disregard to its usage within varying contexts.
But let's just get up front with this. No, there is nothing barbaric about physician-assisted suicide because that decision is entirely up to the person wishing to end their life.

 

[Absinthe]

Well of course he's right because you wouldn't possibly disagree with him because your argument would fall apart.

What.

The additions that were made:

Again, you are far too hooked up on the method itself, showing total disregard to its usage within varying contexts.
But let's just get up front with this. No, there is nothing barbaric about physician-assisted suicide because that decision is entirely up to the person wishing to end their life.

Okay, this demonstrates confusion on my part how?

 

[satch919]

What.

Damn, what I was saying that if you did disagree with Stern then your argument would fall apart. BUT you won't disagree with him for that reason.

Okay, this demonstrates confusion on my part how?

Check my post above. I made it clear which section demonstrates your confusion. It's in bold. (not the italisized/bold section)

 

[Absinthe]

Damn, what I was saying that if you did disagree with Stern then your argument would fall apart. BUT you won't disagree with him for that reason.

I wouldn't disagree with him because, coincidentally, I do agree with him. Our relationship rests on a commonality, not some kind of symbiotic allegiance.

Check my post above.

Okay, I'm still not seeing where the mix-up is. My addition didn't divert from any discussion that had been taking place beforehand. :\

 

[satch919]

I'll post it again! Read the part where it says EDIT!

EDIT-Wait, the issue is over the injection. I was talking about the practice of giving the injection!! Well, there's the problem right there!!!!

Well of course he's right because you wouldn't possibly disagree with him because your argument would fall apart.

The additions that were made:

Again, you are far too hooked up on the method itself, showing total disregard to its usage within varying contexts.
But let's just get up front with this. No, there is nothing barbaric about physician-assisted suicide because that decision is entirely up to the person wishing to end their life.

 

[TheSomeone]

The only reason satch isn't 100% full of shit is because the other 50% is full of himself.

Don't bother Absinthe. You can't argue with someone who won't see the difference between execution and assisted suicide.

 

[Absinthe]

I'll post it again! Read the part where it says EDIT!

And I did address the very practice of lethal injection itself, arguing that it depends on context.

 

[satch919]

The only reason satch isn't 100% full of shit is because the other 50% is full of himself.

Wow, where'd you steal that from? If you didn't steal it, it's quite good. But wrong.

You don't even know me. And here you are saying that I'm full of myself and full of shit when you were complaining about being belittled earlier in this thread. Good man.

Don't bother Absinthe. You can't argue with someone who won't see the difference between execution and assisted suicide.

Assisted suicide - wanting to die. In pain and asking for death. Having a doctor assist you end your life.

Execution by lethal injection - Convicted of a crime and sentenced to death.

But I wasn't arguing that was I? I was arguing something that you missed. THE INJECTION ITSELF!!!

 

[CptStern]

*slaps forehead*

But assisted suicide uses the same method!

I've spent too much time on this thread. I need something a lot more light hearted for a while. People know where I stand so that's it. Good debates though.

the method isnt at issue here ...you brought that up. It's the barbarity of sentencing a man to death that I disagree with. The method of death delivery is immaterial because the act is worse than the methods employed to carry out the act of killing someone ..because ultimately that's what it is ..state sponsored killing

 

[satch919]

And I did address the very practice of lethal injection itself, arguing that it depends on context.

But my issue wasn't with it's context. It was with what CptStern had originally said. I know what the context of each situation is I was discussing the lethal injection itself. The needle entering the veins and administering a lethal dose of chemicals.

 

[CptStern]

But my issue wasn't with it's context. It was with what CptStern had originally said. I know what the context of each situation is I was discussing the lethal injection itself. The needle entering the veins and administering a lethal dose of chemicals.

yes I was talkking about apples you were talking about oranges

 

[satch919]

yes I was talkking about apples you were talking about oranges

I extend an olive branch to you Mr. Stern. We're going around in circles without achieving anything.

At this point, I agree to disagree and I hope others do too.

 

[CptStern]

and I accept ...hey got any wine to go with our olives?

 

[satch919]

and I accept ...hey got any wine to go with our olives?

I've got some Moscato and Muscat Canelli! Vintage 2004!

 

[Absinthe]

Wine is for wimmin'!

 

[satch919]

Wine is for wimmin'!

And I'm guessing absinthe is for the men?! My bro had some imported from France.

Wine gives me a good buzz man!

 

[Absinthe]

And I'm guessing absinthe is for the men?!

:naughty:

 

[CptStern]

I've got some Moscato and Muscat Canelli! Vintage 2004!

havent tried that

/me smacks lips and extends goblet


wine is for refined tastes .....absinthe is for those times you want to go out with friends and somehow end up naked in a ditch on the side of the road with the words "love machine" written in lipstick on your ass .... <sniff> good times ;(

 

[French Ninja]

Though I think he should have not been released, I personally believe he had done enough to exempt him from the death penalty. Too bad its too late now. :/

 

[Vigilante]

Fry the mother f*cker.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Though I think he should have not been released, I personally believe he had done enough to exempt him from the death penalty. Too bad its too late now. :/

Writing childrens books does not make up for killing people.

Sorry...that's about the best I can do to ignite this debate again....the past page worth of posts was garbage/spam.

 

[SAJ]

Thought this would be a good place to end it.
Can be read either way of the arguement, but if you know who Steve Bell is, you get a good idea of where hes coming from.

 

[SAJ]

oops double post.

 

[Absinthe]

Writing childrens books does not make up for killing people.

Children are actually a key demographic that most gangs target and are the most susceptible to influence, especially considering how ganglife is glorified so much in modern media.

What? Did you expect him to write to the age group of 20-40 explaining to them why they shouldn't join gangs when they're pretty much set in their ways? Besides, all proceeds from his works have gone to anti-gang programs and he is also responsible for a peace agreement between two of the largest gangs in the United States. And while the agreement did not establish a permanent and final solution, hostilities between the two have decreased since.

But regardless of his supposed sincerity, I'm against the death penalty any ways. Hell, just keep him to life in prison. His work does more good than harm, and anybody who seriously cares about gang violence and its effects in the United States would have realized that.

ADDED: SAJ, I can't say I'm all that familiar with him. Err... inform me, bitte?

 

[OCybrManO]

Context is everything.

If you eat a hamburger... it is called "lunch."
If you eat a human... it is called "cannibalism."

If you stab a potato... it is called "cooking."
If you stab a human... it is called "murder" (or "attempted murder," if they survive)... that is, unless you're a surgeon.

If you hit a ball with a bat... it is called "sport."
If you hit a person with a bat... it is called "battery."

If you have sex with your wife... it is called "love-making."
If you have sex with Stern's wife... it is called "adultery."

If you spraypaint something on a canvas... it is called "art."
If you spraypaint something on public property... it is called "graffiti."

Is that enough? Do you see the pattern? Without context, an action is neither moral nor immoral.

In the context of putting an animal down, lethal injection is considered humane because you're ending the animal's suffering.

In the context of assisted suicide on a terminally ill person, lethal injection is considered humane (unless you have some religious reasoning) because the person wants to die to end their suffering and, without assistance, they're going to die a painful death.

In the context of capital punishment, lethal injection is considered barbaric because it is used to kill someone (against their will) to fulfill a desire for revenge/retribution... even though alternatives are available.

Anyway, feel free to go back to the wine talk...

 

[Glirk Dient]

Alternatives? What about the people that get "life in jail" and come out later and re commit their crimes? Will you be the one to tell them it could have been avoided? Just because someone didn't like what other people were doing that person died from a criminal that got back out.

 

[OCybrManO]

Have you never heard of someone getting multiple (or "stacked") life sentences? In Florida, a life sentence doesn't allow parole for 25 years (AKA "25 to life")... and if you have four of them for four counts of first-degree murder, you can have 100 years without a chance of parole. The only way you can get out early is through being granted amnesty, a reprieve, or having your sentence commuted to time served. Beyond that, if it's a federal case they can give you a real life sentence with no chance of parole... ever. The only way out of that is a Presidential pardon. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

 

[Vigilante]

well he's dead now so this thread is pointless

 

[SIGbastard]

well he's dead now so this thread is pointless

Thank God for that.......

 

[Vigilante]

Thank God for that.......

A-men.

 

[CptStern]

Thank God for that.......

oh the irony

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and don't turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:38-42

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward in heaven will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." (Jesus quoted by Luke 6:35)



I really like this fire and brimstone stuff ....I need me a black shirt, white collar and morticians black hat and a worn copy of the bible and maybe work on my moves

 

[SIGbastard]

oh the irony

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and don't turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:38-42

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward in heaven will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." (Jesus quoted by Luke 6:35)



I really like this fire and brimstone stuff ....I need me a black shirt, white collar and morticians black hat and a worn copy of the bible and maybe work on my moves

I am not thanking Gos for his death Stern. I am thanking God that the thread will end and that Swarzenegger did the right thing when taken everything in consideration.

God does say to forgive our enemies. He also commanded Jews to annihilate (I don't know how to spell that) cities leaving no survivors women or children. Forgiving is important, but that doesn't mean that all consequences are lost. I could quote verses about TONS of stuff that completely contradicts alot of the things you debate about but I try to avoid such behavior. It is subject to not only an individuals interpretation, but the context of the verse. As far as the "an eye for an eye" verse everyone always quotes I have always believed God is telling us to be passive when it comes to spiritual persecution, but I could be wrong.

 

[Absinthe]

...and that Swarzenegger did the right thing when taken everything in consideration.

Arguable.

 

[Llama]

about bloody time he got the Jab

 

[Vigilante]

Haha. I love to see murderers die.

Especially ones who try to get redemption by writing childrens books.

"Jay jay the stray bullet finds a home" by 50 cent.

 

[gh0st]

Children are actually a key demographic that most gangs target and are the most susceptible to influence, especially considering how ganglife is glorified so much in modern media.

What? Did you expect him to write to the age group of 20-40 explaining to them why they shouldn't join gangs when they're pretty much set in their ways? Besides, all proceeds from his works have gone to anti-gang programs and he is also responsible for a peace agreement between two of the largest gangs in the United States. And while the agreement did not establish a permanent and final solution, hostilities between the two have decreased since.

But regardless of his supposed sincerity, I'm against the death penalty any ways. Hell, just keep him to life in prison. His work does more good than harm, and anybody who seriously cares about gang violence and its effects in the United States would have realized that.

ADDED: SAJ, I can't say I'm all that familiar with him. Err... inform me, bitte?

if his work with children is so amazingly life changing why is his own son, the very honorable "little tookie" in prison, AND a member of the crips? wow cant imagine the great tookie williams' work not even working on his own son.

 

[dantewilliams]

if his work with children is so amazingly life changing why is his own son, the very honorable "little tookie" in prison, AND a member of the crips? wow cant imagine the great tookie williams' work not even working on his own son.

so true

and btw TOOKIE HAS BEEN TERMINATED RIH