Twin studies suggest homosexuality is biological.

[Mechagodzilla]

This study (link), concerning gay men, is from one year ago and, apparently, the same researchers have done a second study, published two days ago, concerning lesbians.
I read about it in today's National Post, Page A13: "New study suggests homosexuality is biological".

The study is highly technical, so the gist is that there are two phermones:
"AND" (found in male sweat) and "EST" (found in female urine).

As you might expect, smelling AND stimulated the hypothalamus (the part of the brain that controls reproductive fuctions) in straight women - but also gay men.
Likewise, EST stimulated the hypothalamus in straight men and gay women.

When people smelt the hormone opposite of their preference, only thier olfactory networks were stimulated; meaning that their brains only recognized it as a smell, and not as something sexual.

In both cases, the scientists concluded that data suggests the observed difference between homosexual and heterosexual reflects a physiological process, meaning that it is not an act of choice.

With that in mind, is there any scientific basis for the whole "homosexuality is unnatural" claim yet?
Or the "homosexuality is a choice" claim?
Or the claim that having gay parent(s) will "turn you gay"?
Or the claim that gays will overwhelm the earth by becoming so accepted that everyone will give up on heterosexuality, ceasing reproduction as we know it and thereby destroying civilization?

(These are all actual arguments made to me by anti-gay critics, by the way. Gotta love science.)

 

[DeusExMachina]

So...what are bisexuals?

 

[CptStern]

confused?



in yo face choice people

 

[Gray Fox]

ZzzzzzzZzzzzZzzzzz.
Who would have guessed.

Not anything against you though Mech, I know you're just posting this for the crazy people.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

So...what are bisexuals?

Answer: never entirely in the middle.

Bi folk do have a sexual preference of some sort or another. The difference is that they simply aren't strict with their sexual partners.
Another fairly recent study found that as the conclusion, but I don't remember the source. I'll look around for it.

 

[DeusExMachina]

So it's like, they're more attracted to one of the sexes than the other?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

That's the idea, biologically speaking at least.
I'm pretty sure the study found that most bisexuals were actually heterosexual.

Being a straight guy doesn't make it impossible to have sex with a man, just as being gay doesn't make it impossible sex with a woman, etc.

Being bi just means you'd enjoy it.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Here is your proof
http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/christianliving/homosexuality.php

Jokes aside...I did a quick google search to see if I could find anything on the other side of the spectrum of this issue.

I turned this up.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/study.html
A study that confirms homosexuality can be overcome. If it can indeed be overcome then perhaps it isn't genetic. That or they brainwash the individual till they become straight.

Here is a study that examines 3 different reasons people may be homosexual and tries to figure out which has the most facts associated with it and which makes most sense.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html

This one is interesting. It says only men inherit homosexuality.
http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=984&department=CWA&categoryid=family

My conclusion. All of these studies are either in conclusive or biased or both.

That or some people really do learn to be homosexual while some inherit it. I am not gonna take sides as I don't really support either until there is undeniable evidence supporting one over the other.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Naturally, I agree with your conclusion.

This latest findings show that the NARTH link may very well get gay guys to repress themselves, but it does not at all suggest that homosexuality is a choice.
In fact, the average 3.5 years of therapy required to "change" the sexuality indicate to me that the opposite is true. He's dealing with "symptoms" (the actual sex) instead of the "disease" (as they call it): in other words, he hasn't checked their brains at all, as this study has.
I'm guessing after three years of "therapy" you could teach a man to pee sitting down too.

Not to mention that the study was run by a conversion buisness working for "religious and political communities", claiming that contradictory studies are a gay propaganda conspiracy.
Also note that he claims his results are 100% concrete, which isn't a scientific thing to do.

Claiming a conspiracy is supressing your results and that you have solved a controversy "once and for all" are key indicators of pseudoscience.

I didn't look at the other two in much detail, but the second link is a self-published religious pamphlet. 'Nuff said.
It, along with the third link, are based on studies that are a minimum 10 years old.
Over 30 years old, in the case of the pamphlet.

 

[Lemonking]

but..but the bible says....


lol

 

[Raeven0]

If it can indeed be overcome then perhaps it isn't genetic.

That makes no sense at all. It's widely accepted that depression, cancer, and two X chromosomes are genetic, but they can be overcome.

That or they brainwash the individual till they become straight.

The Mormons used to do that.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html

Putting aside the author's appalling grammar and poor proofreading, and his unscientific methods, the strongest conclusion he draws is that some people were born to be gay, and some found along the way that they enjoyed it. Whoopdie-****ing-do.

I don't really support either until there is undeniable evidence supporting one over the other.

When conservative Christian families in Arkansas can produce gay children, I question whether environment plays a role at all.

 

[el Chi]

A study that confirms homosexuality can be overcome. If it can indeed be overcome then perhaps it isn't genetic. That or they brainwash the individual till they become straight.

That or some people really do learn to be homosexual while some inherit it.

1. Yes, that would be brain-washing or "re-education". Yes, that would be deeply immoral.
2. I don't think you "learn" to be homosexual. You could have a sexual awakening later in life to who you feel comfortable being (which is usually admitting to yourself what a small part of you has known all along) or you are exploring your sexuality and at some point, homosexuality seems like the right option. Just because someone later decides it's not who they are, that doesn't mean they "learned" to be gay.

When conservative Christian families in Arkansas can produce gay children, I question whether environment plays a role at all.

Exactly.

 

[Raziaar]

Not to relate the two... but is pedophilia genetic too?

I mean... they claim they can't help who they're attracted to...

I'm in no way relating homosexuality to pedophilia. It's just apples and oranges here... with the only link being sexuality.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The study doesn't imply that homosexuality is genetic. Only that it is physiological.

There's no reason to believe pedophilia is genetic at all, as far as I know.
Also, there is a distinction between pedophilia and child sexual abuse.
Only around 2-10 percent of CSA offenders are actually fundamentally attracted to children, although CSA and pedophilia are considered synonymous by the general public.
The other 90-98% are just rapists who can't or won't get access to an adult victim.

Pedophilia is classified as a paraphilia, which is a non-reproductive sexual attraction that may interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity.
Homosexuality isn't a paraphilia because of that last part: it's reciprocal and affectionate.

(Also, this studies that start this thread indicate that it is a reproductive attraction, even if no reproduction may result.)

 

[JNightshade]

With pedophilia... my guess is it's psychological, and not genetic. I know this, because (if my memory serves me) studies have shown that an enormous percentage of rapists were, at one point, victims of rape themselves. I'd not be surprised AT ALL if pedophila worked in a similar way.

Either way, pedophilia = evil, and homosexuality = fine by me.

 

[Raziaar]

Either way, pedophilia = evil, and homosexuality = fine by me.

Well exactly... but I was just curious because it was another sexuality preference thing. Not related to homosexuality.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

My conclusion. All of these studies are either in conclusive or biased or both.

That or some people really do learn to be homosexual while some inherit it. I am not gonna take sides as I don't really support either until there is undeniable evidence supporting one over the other.

I agree with your conclusion. In fact, I personally know somebody who is confident he didn't choose to be gay; and I know a different person who used to be gay but became straight. That person now has a wife and two kids.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I dont believe pedophilia is a choice, based on that I must say there is nothing wrong with being a pedophile just as long as they dont practice it.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

I don't see how homosexuality being biological justifies it at all. If it is due to biological and genetic resons, then it should be seen as a abnormality, like people with down syndrome. Whether homosexuality is justified is a social and moral issuie, not a psychological or scientific one.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

Pedophilia is classified as a paraphilia, which is a non-reproductive sexual attraction that may interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity.
QUOTE]

Isn't it possible for a child to demonstrate sexual affection? certainly according to freud a child would be able to demostrate sexual affection. So I don't see wha pedophilia is classifed as a paraphilia.

 

[VirusType2]

I dont believe pedophilia is a choice, based on that I must say there is nothing wrong with being a pedophile just as long as they dont practice it.

The ones who practice it apparently became priests.




Sexual preference is not by choice. People are attracted to certain shit and they didn't choose it. I didn't choose to like the taste of peanut butter, I just do.

Also, during the course of life, you may acquire the 'taste' for something you originally didn't like, or you may cease to enjoy it. Speaking of 'taste', I think food is a good example to explain my point. When I was a kid I thought broccoli was disgusting, but now I love it. So if you substitute broccoli or peanut butter (in this example) to different sexual preferences and you can easily understand what I am saying.

Also, your 'turn-ons' (something that gets you aroused) comes from a life-time of experiences as well. Not always experiences like actually doing things but just from everything you have ever experienced in life. For example, when I was younger I saw some sexual images of women in certain 'situations'. A female maid bending over in a short skirt is a famous example of a 'situation'. This was burned in my mind, and of course effected things that turn me on.

I think a combination of taste, acquired taste, and life experiences decides what you like and what you don't like. That being said, I should remind you that 'taste'(the things you like or don't like) is not a choice, but your tastes can be affected by other peoples opinions, life-experiences, or you may change your mind. (acquired taste)

Another example of certain life experiences that can affect your preferences; when you smell someone wearing the perfume that aunt Betty wears, it has no effect, but when you smell the perfume of someone you are attracted to, it might make you aroused later in life when you smell this particular perfume (life experiences) Life experiences can be simple things like the way a girl or guy dresses. Things that remind you of someone else whether consciously or sub-consciously.

I have explained this much 'Sexual preference is not by choice.' the rest is up to scientists.

-VirusType2

 

[el Chi]

I don't see how homosexuality being biological justifies it at all. If it is due to biological and genetic resons, then it should be seen as a abnormality, like people with down syndrome.

You're disgusting. Homosexuality is not something that needs "justification".
Why should someone's sexual preference make them more or less of a "moral" person?
Give one good, secular reason why homosexuality is immoral.
In that thread on sexism, you proved yourself to be staunchly mysoginistic, now you're repugnantly homophobic - what next?

 

[CptStern]

I don't see how homosexuality being biological justifies it at all. If it is due to biological and genetic resons, then it should be seen as a abnormality, like people with down syndrome. Whether homosexuality is justified is a social and moral issuie, not a psychological or scientific one.

nice try but no. Downs syndrome is an abnormality at the chromosomal level characterized by an extra chromosone, homosexuality does not fit that criteria. Btw condemning gays as "abnormal" was the justification used by the nazis when they sent thousands of them to the gas chambers

 

[john121]

i still feel that homosexuality is a choice, the same as heterosexuality is a choice... i chose to be straight, and did not choose to be gay... therefore, homosexuality is a choice. I've even asked this of some friends who are gay, and they all have said that they CHOSE to be gay... case closed

 

[el Chi]

i still feel that homosexuality is a choice, the same as heterosexuality is a choice... i chose to be straight, and did not choose to be gay... therefore, homosexuality is a choice. I've even asked this of some friends who are gay, and they all have said that they CHOSE to be gay... case closed

You asked "some" friends of yours and the case is "closed"? I beg to differ.
If homosexuality is a simple matter of choice, then why do some people try to repress their sexuality? Some people spend years denying their feelings. Sure they make the choice to come out of the closet, but that's not the same as choosing their sexuality.
If you say you "chose" to be straight then fair play by you - I've never really felt that way. By saying you "chose" to be straight, this implies that a part of you was tempted or intrigued by homosexuality yet you decided to ignore this side. It's not a choice unless there's more than one option.

 

[CptStern]

i still feel that homosexuality is a choice, the same as heterosexuality is a choice... i chose to be straight, and did not choose to be gay... therefore, homosexuality is a choice. I've even asked this of some friends who are gay, and they all have said that they CHOSE to be gay... case closed

you chose to be straight? at what age? under what circumstances? was it really a choice? or was it simply rejecting what you didnt like? "I dont like male ass therefore I choose not to be ghey" ? ..well then how is that a choice? if you dont like something it's not by choice ..I dont like asparagus but not because of choice but because I cant stand the taste of it

oh it's funny how in my 30 + years of life I've never run into to someone who chose their own sexuality, not gay, not straight, not a single person ..yet somehow you know plenty of people who have

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Case closed on anecdotal evidence?

No one is claiming you can't suppress homosexuality.
Only that homosexual desire, which the people you listed had experienced, is a mainly biological occurence.

Like I said, bisexuality is a sociological choice, and is not biological. It is possible for someone to have sex with people of any gender, despite (or because of) inhibition.

However, underneath the social descision, there is still (as the studies suggest) a natural inclination one way or the other.

If it is due to biological and genetic resons, then [homosexuality] should be seen as a abnormality, like people with down syndrome.
[...]
Isn't it possible for a child to demonstrate sexual affection?

You are no longer allowed to decide what's abnormal or not.

 

[VirusType2]

i still feel that homosexuality is a choice, the same as heterosexuality is a choice... i chose to be straight, and did not choose to be gay... therefore, homosexuality is a choice. I've even asked this of some friends who are gay, and they all have said that they CHOSE to be gay... case closed

How can you say you choose to be straight?

For me, at about 10 or 11 years old, the first day of school that year I walked into class, and as I was walking through the classroom to my desk, I was amazed at how unbelievably pretty this girl that sat next to me was.

This was the start of a 9 year infatuation of this girl throughout elementary school and then on to middle school and even high school I still found her insanely attractive, and I had never been sexually attracted to anyone before then.

I didn't choose anything, it was all natural - like a magnet I was just attracted to her. I remember thinking in my mind, "OMFG this girl is so awesome to look at and she is sitting right next to me! Thank you god!"

And I became friends with her, although we were both painfully shy, I did always manage to get her to laugh, and this was what I lived for. TBH I wanted to be as close as possible to her, look at her, talk to her, listen to her, and last but not least - screw her every day for the rest of my life. I didn't have the slightest idea how I would do this, except to say or do something funny for her, and get in line next to her and eventually one day she sat at the same lunch table as me and then we ended up sitting at the same lunch table everyday with a common group of people. We never spoke more than one word at a time. Ever. I had no ****ing idea what to say to her, but I would often figure out something funny to do to get her to laugh.

One day we all had to get up and read an excerpt from a book (we hadn't known how to read very long at 10 years old), and I remember thinking she had the most beautiful voice I had ever heard.

I didn't choose to like her voice, I didn't choose to think about her all day or stare at her as much as I could while trying not to let her know I was insane about her. She was basically the only thing in the world that I thought about, and I couldn't pay attention to, or concentrate on anything else no matter how hard I tried, so I would say that choosing to be attracted to something is impossible. Certainly she couldn't feel the same way about me (even I knew no one could be this crazy) and I didn't know if this was normal or if she even ever liked boys yet, much less - specifically me.

There were other girls, and eventually women, don't get me wrong, but I never choose anything, I either was attracted to them or I wasn't.

I don't think you can know what you are attracted to until you see it for the first time, and for me, I certainly didn't know any better before hand, or choose to be attracted to her.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I certainly no expert on the matter, but I was under the impression that hormone levels, in the womb determined sexuality, that's what I've heard anyway

 

[JNightshade]

I think that many people seem to be missing one important concept:

even if homosexuality IS a choice, there's still nothing wrong with it.

 

[jverne]

The ones who practice it apparently became priests.




Sexual preference is not by choice. People are attracted to certain shit and they didn't choose it. I didn't choose to like the taste of peanut butter, I just do.

Also, during the course of life, you may acquire the 'taste' for something you originally didn't like, or you may cease to enjoy it. Speaking of 'taste', I think food is a good example to explain my point. When I was a kid I thought broccoli was disgusting, but now I love it. So if you substitute broccoli or peanut butter (in this example) to different sexual preferences and you can easily understand what I am saying.

Also, your 'turn-ons' (something that gets you aroused) comes from a life-time of experiences as well. Not always experiences like actually doing things but just from everything you have ever experienced in life. For example, when I was younger I saw some sexual images of women in certain 'situations'. A female maid bending over in a short skirt is a famous example of a 'situation'. This was burned in my mind, and of course effected things that turn me on.

I think a combination of taste, acquired taste, and life experiences decides what you like and what you don't like. That being said, I should remind you that 'taste'(the things you like or don't like) is not a choice, but your tastes can be affected by other peoples opinions, life-experiences, or you may change your mind. (acquired taste)

Another example of certain life experiences that can affect your preferences; when you smell someone wearing the perfume that aunt Betty wears, it has no effect, but when you smell the perfume of someone you are attracted to, it might make you aroused later in life when you smell this particular perfume (life experiences) Life experiences can be simple things like the way a girl or guy dresses. Things that remind you of someone else whether consciously or sub-consciously.

I have explained this much 'Sexual preference is not by choice.' the rest is up to scientists.

-VirusType2

i totally agree! it's a combination of both genetic and choise.

 

[gick]

The only 'choice' involved is whether you repress it or not. And if you do, thats bloody stupid. My uncle repressed his sexuality for years and it casued him to have a nervous breakdown. Now he has accepted it, and is happily married (to a guy). I just wish the rest of the world would learn to accept homosexuality too...

 

[Reaktor4]

i chose to be straight, and did not choose to be gay... therefore...

...you are gay/bisexual, but are repressing it.

 

[ríomhaire]

i still feel that homosexuality is a choice, the same as heterosexuality is a choice... i chose to be straight, and did not choose to be gay... therefore, homosexuality is a choice. I've even asked this of some friends who are gay, and they all have said that they CHOSE to be gay... case closed

I dare you to chose to be turned on by lemon party. Just stare at it and don't look away or think of anything else until you feel the erection lift. Just try.

 

[Raziaar]

The only 'choice' involved is whether you repress it or not. And if you do, thats bloody stupid. My uncle repressed his sexuality for years and it casued him to have a nervous breakdown. Now he has accepted it, and is happily married (to a guy). I just wish the rest of the world would learn to accept homosexuality too...

It's only stupid to repress it if you deep down inside don't want to suppress it. I can imigine there are people who have a sexual attraction towards males in some regards, but ultimately choose to be with women. And I think it is degrading when people call them 'confused', simply because they don't openly embrace homosexuality. Bisexuality isn't confusion.

 

[el Chi]

It's only stupid to repress it if you deep down inside don't want to suppress it. I can imigine there are people who have a sexual attraction towards males in some regards, but ultimately choose to be with women.

The whole nature of "repressing" something is that you don't want to admit to it or face up to it; so if you repress some feelings or desires, you are making a sub-conscious effort to deceive yourself. This is because you want to suppress these feelings, for whatever reason (usually due to social environment), but one is never really comfortable with this repression, as you are constantly at odds with who you really are, and who you are trying to force yourself to be. This is not specific to homosexuality, but all repression and is going to end up in feelings of anguish and misery.
So yes. It is sad when people try to repress these feelings.

Because you can imagine that, it doesn't make it so, I'm afraid. Sure, bisexual people would probably want to settle down one day (as we ar all likely to), but what if their decision on which sex they settled down with, was less to do with choice of sexual preference, but who they were in love with at the time? Wouldn't that simply be incidental?

 

[ríomhaire]

If I make (another) poll on homosexuality will it be closed?

 

[el Chi]

Depends what the options are..

 

[Apos]

I agree with your conclusion. In fact, I personally know somebody who is confident he didn't choose to be gay; and I know a different person who used to be gay but became straight. That person now has a wife and two kids.

I've got some bad news for you. Gay people have traditionally often married and had kids to try and fit in and avoid hardship. Did you not watch Brokeback Mountain?

So yeah, he has a wife and two kids. And yet... you know what he probably spends all his time thinking about?

 

[Apos]

Glirk Dient, it's worth pointing out that several of your sources are not in the least credible sceintific work: they are press releases from anti-gay advocacy organizations, not work published in credible scientific journals.