U.S. Outsourcing Torture

K

kmack

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Operation Extraordinary Rendition

The United States (namely the C.I.A.) is currently transferring suspected terrorists to countries in the world known for their brutal, torturous, interrogation techniques. Two CIA airplanes (a Gulfstream V and a Boeing 737) have been transporting suspected terrorists to countries such as Afghanistan, Egypt, and Uzebekistan for interrogation. As we have seen, the brutal techniques used in Abu Ghraib, were met with public outrage, and a genuine shake-up of the commanding officers at the prison. While most Americans became aware of that, less know about the current U.S. methods. An former British ambassador to Uzebekistan , Craig Murray, says the Uzbeks very regularly used very brutal torture a lot of beating, breaking of limbs, smashing of limbs, smashing of teeth, pulling away skin with pliers, pulling out fingernails and toe nails.". He also says he knows of at least one death (caused by "boiling") that was brought to his attention. *The program began under an executive order signed by President George H.W. Bush in December 1992.*

International Reactions

The rendition program has been denounced in Sweden after two suspected terrorists in Stockholm were turned over to the United States, sent to Egypt on a CIA plane and allegedly tortured.

In Italy, a federal magistrate is investigating whether the Aviano Air Base, a facility in northeastern Italy used by U.S. forces, was used in a CIA scheme to grab terror suspect Hassan Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, off the streets of Milan and ship him off to Egypt.

A German citizen, Khaled el Masri, says he was taken on a CIA plane and sent to Afghanistan where he says he was stripped, beaten and abused. He was interrogated by American agents for months, el Masri said, and at one point was told "you are here in a land where there are no laws. No one knows about you or where you are." El Masri was released by the United States after four months without being charged with any crime.

Maher Arar, a Canadian, was sent to Syria in 2003 where he says he was tortured for 10 months. Mamdouh Habib, an Australian, claims he was transferred by U.S. agents from Pakistan to Egypt in 2001, where he says he was tortured for six months before being taken to Guantanamo Bay.



While we may find ourselves able to justify the torture of terrorists, many of these men are simply suspected terrorists, or suspected in aiding terrorism. It should be noted that Saddam Huessein was widely criticized for torturing people, does this make us a little hypocritical? Also it is widely agreed in law enforcement that torture is not as effective as thought. In many cases it creates false leads, cases of people saying anything to "stop the beating".

Is it acceptable for the United States to condone the torture of suspects? Can we continue to fly suspected terrorists into countries who employ brutal interrogation techniques?
 
good, so now americans cant be blamed. ahh the glory of outsourcing.
 
So? What is your point. Yes, bad, evil American Capitalist pigs do torture. Amazing how they don't care what this man did in his life... oh well.
 
ummm... this has been going on for years, maybe you missed the Cold War, stuff like this happened all the time
i like how you call it outsourcing, though, i always thought outsourcing was bad, but now i guess it's not so bad at all
edit: i hate how people keep bringing up Abu Ghraib, that was f*cking child's play compared to some of the shit they do in other countries, including Iraq, get a damn clue, the world isn't nice, Saddam and his kids were sadistic bastards
 
Kebean PFC said:
So? What is your point. Yes, bad, evil American Capitalist pigs do torture. Amazing how they don't care what this man did in his life... oh well.
The point is - how can one take the moral high-ground and denounce someone's actions whilst simultaneously commiting similar actions of brutality in the name of "freedom"?

However, like Calanen - I'd like to see a source.
 
el Chi said:
The point is - how can one take the moral high-ground and denounce someone's actions whilst simultaneously commiting similar actions of brutality in the name of "freedom"?

However, like Calanen - I'd like to see a source.

That was exactly my point!
source coming in a second!
 
Icarusintel said:
i hate how people keep bringing up Abu Ghraib, that was f*cking child's play compared to some of the shit they do in other countries, including Iraq, get a damn clue, the world isn't nice, Saddam and his kids were sadistic bastards

And guess what, we are sending SUSPECTED terrorists to countries (just like in the old iraq) where they are tortured, their limbs are boiled, fingernails and toenails are ripped off. How can we condemn horrible acts at abu ghraib at the same time as we send out prisoners to an even worse fate?
 
Rendetion was enacted under Clinton. You can't blame this on Bush.
 
happened to a canadian ..kidnapped in new york on his way back to canada and deported to syria for torture


"There was a small opening in the ceiling, about one foot by two feet with iron bars. Over that was another ceiling, so only a little light came through this.

There were cats and rats up there, and from time to time the cats peed through the opening into the cell. There were two blankets, two dishes and two bottles. One bottle was for water and the other one was used for urinating during the night. Nothing else. No light.

I spent 10 months, and 10 days inside that grave.

The next day I was taken upstairs again. The beating started that day and was very intense for a week, and then less intense for another week. That second and the third days were the worst.

I could hear other prisoners being tortured, and screaming and screaming. Interrogations are carried out in different rooms.

One tactic they use is to question prisoners for two hours, and then put them in a waiting room, so they can hear the others screaming, and then bring them back to continue the interrogation."
 
kidnapped in new york on his way back to canada and deported to syria for torture

You have got to be kidding me. Kidnapped? Seriously Stern. Cut the bull. He was detained at the request of CSIS and deported back to his own country. If you want to be upset at Syria for torturing its own citizens, fine, take it up with them. This guy is "canadian" simply because it facilitates his terrorist activities. Stop trying to make it seem like the FBI is kidnapping Johnny Canuck off the street corners.
 
did you bother to read his statement?


ghostfox said:
This guy is "canadian" simply because it facilitates his terrorist activities.

"I am a Syrian-born Canadian. I moved here with my parents when I was 17 years old. I went to university and studied hard, and eventually obtained a Masters degree in telecommunications.

I met my wife, Monia at McGill University. We fell in love and eventually married in 1994."



ya that sounds like someone who's been waiting all his life to engage in terrorist activities :upstare:

he's no less a canadian than .....you are ..wellll :|
 
CptStern said:
did you bother to read his statement?




"I am a Syrian-born Canadian. I moved here with my parents when I was 17 years old. I went to university and studied hard, and eventually obtained a Masters degree in telecommunications.

I met my wife, Monia at McGill University. We fell in love and eventually married in 1994."



ya that sounds like someone who's been waiting all his life to engage in terrorist activities :upstare:

he's no less a canadian than .....you are ..wellll :|

He's no more a Canadian then you...
 
Wow another thread ruined by CptStern and his mindless quotation of out of context facts... YAY
 
Kebean PFC said:
Wow another thread ruined by CptStern and his mindless quotation of out of context facts... YAY

out of context? wtf are you talking about? the topic is "rendering" ..I gave an example, you on the other hand are trolling
 
Sgt_Shellback said:
That neither the terrorist or [] are Canadian....


ya so I guess this canadian birth certificate is a forgery ....where are you going with this? is your ingrained bigotry rising to the surface?
 
CptStern said:
out of context? wtf are you talking about? the topic is "rendering" ..I gave an example, you on the other hand are trolling

Trolling is the topic in a thread such as this is it not? Or is trolling only something you do against Spainyards?

But America is fair game????
 
Sgt_Shellback said:
Trolling is the topic in a thread such as this is it not? Or is trolling only something you do agaisnt Spainyards?

But America is fair game????

is that some form of rudimentary insult? you make little sense. Spit it out shellback


again I ask you:

....where are you going with this? is your ingrained bigotry rising to the surface?
 
Take it up with the countries who you have a beef with not the guys complying with thier extradition laws.

I'm sure you have a hundered Google pastes where we didn't comply... Post one of them.


Oh wait I got off topic... STERN HATES ANYTHING AMERICAN.... There.
 
:upstare: someone asked for a source on the rendering, I gave an example ..simple as that. btw did you read his statement? do you have a judgement on rendering? or are you here to hurl pointless innuendos at "spainyard's" and canadians (dem frozen guys up der north)

oh and you want say what's on your mind? or are you afraid of what you might say?
 
Hey ladies take it outside there will be no flaming in my message boards.

Anyway, this doesnt bug me in the least. 1) Theres no source. 2) If there was, I wouldnt care what they do with suspected terrorists. Launch them in a spaceship into the sun for all I care. Harsh, but torture is certainly justified. I use the term torture loosely, not the UN's all encompassing definition "causing pain". Thats bullshit, I punched my coworkers arm and probably caused some pain that isnt torture.

Just because someones a canuck doesnt mean they cant be a terrorist. Theres been American terrorists, a Syrian born Canuck cant be so far out of the picture.
 
gh0st said:
Hey ladies take it outside there will be no flaming in my message boards.

Anyway, this doesnt bug me in the least. 1) Theres no source. 2) If there was, I wouldnt care what they do with suspected terrorists. Launch them in a spaceship into the sun for all I care. Harsh, but torture is certainly justified. I use the term torture loosely, not the UN's all encompassing definition "causing pain". Thats bullshit, I punched my coworkers arm and probably caused some pain that isnt torture.

Just because someones a canuck doesnt mean they cant be a terrorist. Theres been American terrorists, a Syrian born Canuck cant be so far out of the picture.

Exactly... Nothing left to say now.
 
ya that sounds like someone who's been waiting all his life to engage in terrorist activities

What do you mean "wait all his life"? He traveled to Afghanistan soon after arriving for training in an Al-Qaeda camp. He was already a terrorist when he came to Canada. I think that is blatently obvious.

And regardless of everything else, why are you pinning this on the US? The Canadian govt. is the one who asked for him to be deported on the grounds that he was a threat to national security. If you think this guy was hard done by, why aren't you up in arms at our govt? Could it be that you are using this as another one of your excuses to blame the US for absolutely everything? I'm honestly waiting for the day when you start substituting "US" for "Nazi Germany" in your arguments. That is only the next logical step.
 
Australia had some 'Australian' terrorists as well - well my view is that they should lose their citizenship for these crimes. The sentence of death is still on the books for treason in Australia (and for crimes against military justice), but none of these guys have been charged with it. Nor will they I suspect. Treason is a very difficult charge to prove, costly, and relates back to older forms of treason - ie overthrowing the sovereign, which of course is not really what training with Al Quada is doing.

Mahmdoub Habib - the famous invalid pensioner who trained with Al Quada in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and who managed to arrange his social security check to be sent to a bank in Pakistan while he trained - obliging of the Dept of Social Security to do it? Need some money for beer and cigs while you are training mates! Fairs fair! Problem with him his he did most of his stuff before the government reformed the ancient terrrorism laws to cope with stuff that he was doing in the post 911 world, so he mostly gets a pass now. He has become something of a cause celebre for the left at Australia, seen dining in swank establishments with left journalists and former left politicians, even was at the beach house of one lefty!. They had a welcome home BBQ for him attended by various lefties crowing about Bush's victims and heres one...blah blah. But I can tell you this, my sources tell me, that this guy, is the worst of the worst....sorry cant publish a source and you can either believe me or not. He was al Quada middle management. But they are kind of fubared because they probably wont get a conviction for him having done anything back in 2001.

He said he would give a tell all interview on 60 Minutes, for which he got paid $100,000 (reputedly, ive seen different figures) - on which he told very little except how he had been beaten and tortured by the Americans. Textbook al quada. What he was doing in Pakistan or Afghanistan, he would not say, nor would he answer any placing on the spot questions about various allegations.

'Jihad' Jack Thomas - charged with a raft of offences related to terrorism. Unbelievably he has been granted bail in Victora, so probably the last we will see of him. A lot less is known about him in the press, or said about him.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...k/2004/12/22/1103391808948.html?oneclick=true

Btw this artiicle says bail refused - he actually got it later.

David Hicks - this guy is a weird one. Seems to be an otherwise ordinary Australian, except decided to convert to Islam and fight in Bosnia, Chechnya, and the Afghanistan for Muslims. Believed to have trained with Al Quada, although he says it was only the Taliban. I'm not sure if he is even saying that anymore, maybe going for the lost backpacker plea. Either way, he was an enemy combatant agaist Coalition forces and should be shot.

There have been a couple of others who have been denied passports or had theres removed. At least we are trying to keep our own problems in-house, and not let them roam around the world joining sleeper cells.

A guy I went to school with who is in the Federal Police, executed a search warrant on a person of interest - that was in a terrace style house. They check the door, locked tight - and would need a great deal of force to open. Think about breaking it down, but try the windows. Luck would have it, side window is open and they creep in. The front door was typical terrace style, with a large staircase that lead down to the front door going up to the second floor, and the hallway to ground floor on the right.

So they creep in, and can hear somone snoring upstairs. Guns drawn they go upstairs. Theres a guy, of Middle Eastern appearance asleep and snoring. The two agents go either side of the bed. The guy I know looks under the bed. AKM locked and loaded. They both grab him and cuff him. If they had bashed on the door - the guy who needed to hunt really fierce deer with the AKM would have moved to the top of the stairs, crouched pointing the AKM down the stairway. And mown the agents down without a prayer. He said he was really glad they chose to go quietly through the window.

Btw - before every1 says he was exercising his second amendment rights - it was in Australia. No1 gets to own AKMs. If you have an AKM in Australia, you are either a serious wacky gun nut, a drug dealer, or a terrorist. And these guys were suspected terrorists, I believe as part of a Muslim Youth group....

And btw Stern just doesn't get it and people like him don't get it. They want me dead. They want Stern dead. And Stern will not ever get it, even if Jihadis park a truck bomb in his living room.
 
Munro. Put a rep system on these forums so I can compliment Calanen on his posts properly.
 
Munro. Put a rep system on these forums so I can compliment Calanen on his posts properly.

Eek - does this mean its time to start running now! As Grandpa Simpsons says, 'Call me Mint Jelly! Cause I'm on the lam!'

In addition just because Stern can post a whole lot of google searches about American torture, does in no way point to and critically evaluate a source. Indeed my good friend Google *proves* using the same standard as Stern, that the US government has been involved in collaboration with aliens to abduct people? Don't believe me - here's the proof using the 'Stern Standard'

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=...g+in+alien+abduction&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Let's deal with the facts, not the Googleosophy.
 
Bodacious said:
Rendetion was enacted under Clinton. You can't blame this on Bush.

The CIA would not officially comment on its operation, known as "extraordinary rendition." The program began under an executive order signed by President George H.W. Bush in December 1992

Sorry, but I can blame this on Bush. You can't enact whats not there.
 
gh0st said:
Anyway, this doesnt bug me in the least. 1) Theres no source.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=559496&page=1 i already gave the source once.

gh0st said:
2) If there was, I wouldnt care what they do with suspected terrorists. Launch them in a spaceship into the sun for all I care. Harsh, but torture is certainly justified. I use the term torture loosely, not the UN's all encompassing definition "causing pain". Thats bullshit, I punched my coworkers arm and probably caused some pain that isnt torture.

"The Uzbeks very regularly used very brutal torture," Murray (Former British Ambassador to Uzebekistan) said. "A lot of beating, breaking of limbs, smashing of limbs, smashing of teeth, pulling away skin with pliers, pulling out fingernails and toe nails."
He said he knew of one case where an Uzbek prisoner was boiled to death.

That is NOT punching someone in the arm, that is undoubtedly torture. WE are not bringing prisoners to these countries for punches in the arm, they have a date with pliers and their eyelids im afraid.

Also, these people are SUSPECTS, read the 4 examples i gave, all of them were TORTURED, and then returned home not being charged with anything.
 
GhostFox said:
What do you mean "wait all his life"? He traveled to Afghanistan soon after arriving for training in an Al-Qaeda camp. He was already a terrorist when he came to Canada. I think that is blatently obvious.


you know, you probably should at least pretend to have read the article ..or maybe even the first paragraph ...you might have avoided looking like a fool:

"I have never been to Afghanistan. I have never been anywhere near Afghanistan and I do not have any desire to ever go to Afghanistan."

Statement to the media by Maher Arar, Nov. 4, 2003.
 
Yeah, that has gotten a lot of attention here. The thing is, the Foreign Minister at the time, Anna Lindh, allowed it, but now no one dares to speak bad about her, she being murdered and all. But fact is that two Swedish citizens were deported by American agents to be tortured. That is outrages.
 
Calanen said:
And btw Stern just doesn't get it and people like him don't get it. They want me dead"


Ghostfox said:
you are using this as another one of your excuses to blame the US for absolutely everything? I'm honestly waiting for the day when you start substituting "US" for "Nazi Germany" in your arguments. That is only the next logical step."


:upstare: this is what I have to endure in lieu of attacking facts ..at every step of the way you knucledraggers must use the same tired over-simplified rationale in discrediting me as "just another america the brave hater" .."terrorist sympathizer" "communist" "hippie" ....your motivations are transparent ..I will not be shouted down by malcontents and loudmouths bent on discrediting every single last criticsim aimed at the war. Just leave your hate rhetoric at the door, it's really getting annoying
 
CptStern said:
your motivations are transparent ..I will not be shouted down by malcontents and loudmouths bent on discrediting every single last criticsim aimed at the war. Just leave your hate rhetoric at the door, it's really getting annoying
And yours arent? Admit that you hate america and we wont need to tell you that you hate it anymore. I laugh when you say knuckledraggers... arrogant canadians. The only hate and the only bullshit rhetoric in the room is coming from you.
 
you're the "he's anti-american! burn him BURN!!!" poster-boy

arrogant canadians ...heheh that's rich!

gh0st said:
Not like it matters, this nation of dumbasses will still beat the shit out of any of yours.

:LOL:
 
CptStern said:
you're the "he's anti-american! burn him BURN!!!" poster-boy
Youre right I cant disagree. But if people searched actively for things to hate about your country you would too.
arrogant canadians ...heheh that's rich!
Not arrogant, its the truth. Are you going to cry?
 
gh0st said:
Hey ladies take it outside there will be no flaming in my message boards.

Anyway, this doesnt bug me in the least. 1) Theres no source. 2) If there was, I wouldnt care what they do with suspected terrorists. Launch them in a spaceship into the sun for all I care. Harsh, but torture is certainly justified. I use the term torture loosely, not the UN's all encompassing definition "causing pain". Thats bullshit, I punched my coworkers arm and probably caused some pain that isnt torture.

Just because someones a canuck doesnt mean they cant be a terrorist. Theres been American terrorists, a Syrian born Canuck cant be so far out of the picture.


Any infliction of pain during an interogation is defined as torture and is outlawed by the UN, America being a member of which, but then, where would you draw the line? And these suspected terrorists all seem to be released 10 months later without any charges brought to bare them, why? Maybe because they aren't terrorists. I am sure you will be singing a different tune if you were kidnapped off the streets, flown to Syria, beaten to within an inch of your life, finger nails pulled out, etc, then dumped back on the streets 10 months later none the wiser of what happened.

George Bush is no better then Saddam Hussein if these allegations are true, the filthy swine.
 
gh0st said:
Youre right I cant disagree. But if people searched actively for things to hate about your country you would too.

no one's looking, in fact you cant avoid it ..you are in the middle of a hugely unpopular war, what did you expect?

gh0st said:
Not arrogant, its the truth. Are you going to cry?


hehe werent you just saying you were one of the few examples of how the education system works :upstare:

anyways ..the arrogance thing is just silly, we're known for being polite to the point of nausea ..but arrogance has always been used to describe america not canada ..what could we possibly be arrogant about? We dont wear our patriotism on our sleeves unlike our neighbours to the south
 
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