U.S. Outsourcing Torture

[jondy]

Not like it matters, this nation of dumbasses will still beat the shit out of any of yours.

Not arrogant, its the truth. Are you going to cry?

Yes, it is arrogant. Get over yourself. You're having trouble enough thinking at stern's level anyway, so I suggest you concentrate on coming up with some valid counter-arguments instead of flamebaiting. It's clearly too much for you to do both at once.

 

[CptStern]

heh, thanks ..btw I've been to Chez Moi, nice place

 

[Razor]

It is strange that no one in this thread has denied the fact that this is going on, you're not saying it is not happening, you're justifying torture. How can a country full of freedom loving people support torturing an innocent man from Canada?

 

[CptStern]

or worse yet, their fellow americans

 

[KoreBolteR]

hah, why is everything pointed at america?
is it because they are the richest country in the world....?

because im telling you, there is no doubt that dozens more do worse.

unless you live in a fairytale world :upstare:

i could simply substitute the word 'fairytale' with 'Media Controlled'.

 

[kirovman]

It is strange that no one in this thread has denied the fact that this is going on, you're not saying it is not happening, you're justifying torture. How can a country full of freedom loving people support torturing an innocent man from Canada?

Because it's all in the name of freedom!

I want to know what any of the supporters of this would say if they were accused of terrorism.
Would they like the chance to argue their case in a court of law?
Or would they like to be whisked away in the night to be tortured?

I suspect the former, but I bet there's going to be some smartarse who says "I'd be willing to be tortured [by my country] for the love of my country's beliefs in democracy, freedom and civil rights!"

And I think everything is directed at America because it's a good benchmark to use (not many people know much about Latvian politics for example).

 

[GhostFox]

you know, you probably should at least pretend to have read the article ..or maybe even the first paragraph ...you might have avoided looking like a fool

"I have never been to Afghanistan. I have never been anywhere near Afghanistan and I do not have any desire to ever go to Afghanistan."

If we are talking about looking like fools, maybe you should put your clown costume on now.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1072789222765_27/?hub=Canada

The National Post quotes intelligence sources from Canada and the U.S. who claim to be "100 per cent sure" Arar trained with al Qaeda in Afghanistan

Sha-zam! Actual facts! Iiiiiiiiiiiii'm Mellllllllllltiiiiiiinggggggggg!!!!!

 

[GhostFox]

arrogant canadians.

I think this "my country is better then your country" has been going on too long. Ghost, you may not like Sterny, but if you resort to attacking all Canadians simply because you dislike him personally, are you really any different?

Everyone needs to start checking their agenda at the door

 

[jondy]

hah, why is everything pointed at america?
is it because they are the richest country in the world....?

because im telling you, there is no doubt that dozens more do worse.

That's great, but said other countries don't think they're the sodding world police.

>power =>responsibility

 

[CptStern]

If we are talking about looking like fools, maybe you should put your clown costume on now.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1072789222765_27/?hub=Canada



Sha-zam! Actual facts! Iiiiiiiiiiiii'm Mellllllllllltiiiiiiinggggggggg!!!!!

from your link:

"The report quotes unnamed, high-level Canadian and American officials who claim to have had access to an extensive secret intelligence file on Arar."

hmm the same people who sent him to syria in the first place?

"Arar, 33, says he confessed to travelling to Afghanistan only after being tortured in Syria. He now insists he's never been to that country and that he's not a member of al Qaeda.

"He has never been to Afghanistan. He has never been anywhere near Afghanistan and it's ludicrous that once again officials from the Canadian government and intelligence services are refusing to name themselves and giving information on him," she told the paper.

"If they have something on Maher Arar, they should bring it out on the public. This is why we need a public inquiry."






"I have never been to Afghanistan. I have never been anywhere near Afghanistan and I do not have any desire to ever go to Afghanistan."

 

[GhostFox]

you're justifying torture. How can a country full of freedom loving people support torturing an innocent man from Canada?

I don't justify it. What I do is support the right of the Canadian govt. to deport a terrorist back to his own country, in this case being Syria. Now I think torture is wrong, so the movement should be to end torture in Syria, not prevent nations from deporting people back to where they came from.

You can't honestly expect nations to let terrorists run around free on the streets simply because they may be tortured back in their own country. If you are a Syrian, you should be deported back to Syria, and if you get tortured, you should take that up with the Syrian govt., not the govt. that deported you there.

 

[GhostFox]

"I have never been to Afghanistan. I have never been anywhere near Afghanistan and I do not have any desire to ever go to Afghanistan."

I always take the word of terrorists over CSIS. Don't you? Wait, apparently you do!

 

[CptStern]

look just because you identify "terrorists" by the colour of their skin doesnt mean he's a terrorist ..if he truely was a terrorist why did they let him go?

 

[CptStern]

I always take the word of terrorists over CSIS. Don't you? Wait, apparently you do!

hmmm maybe you forget that in canada it's "innocent till proven guilty" .....not "guilty till proven innocent" as is the case south of the border

 

[GhostFox]

canada it's "innocent till proven guilty"

ok

sources from Canada and the U.S. who claim to be "100 per cent sure" Arar trained with al Qaeda in Afghanistan

100% is better then you get in any court of law. There is an easy guilty.

"guilty till proven innocent" as is the case south of the border

And you decided to fabricate this statement for what reason?

 

[GhostFox]

if he truely was a terrorist why did they let him go?

He was there a year. Many admitted terrorists in Syria only serve a year or two. Syria just wants to have some leverage to pretend they are helping in the war on terrorism, in truth they won't bat an eyelash when this guy sets off a bomb in TO.

 

[CptStern]

:upstare: I'm sure they let dangerous felons back into the general population ...at least try to back up your claim he's a terrorist cuz from where I'm sitting he looks like a family man that was in the wrong place at the wrong time

 

[Razor]

I always take the word of terrorists over CSIS. Don't you? Wait, apparently you do!

I would rather believe an Arab man who said things under torture and threats of death then the torturer and the murderer. If he was truely a terrorist, why was he release if the American and Canadian government had this 100% supposed proof?

 

[GhostFox]

I would rather believe an Arab man who said things under torture and threats of death then the torturer and the murderer

I'm not talking about his admission. I'm referring to the fact that CSIS (the canadian equivilant of the CIA) says that they have 100% proof that he trained in Afghanistan with Al-Qaeda. That is why they had him deported.

If he was truely a terrorist, why was he release if the American and Canadian government had this 100% supposed proof?

Look at my other posts. Research some admitted terrorists and the time they serve in Syria. Many are less then 2 years.

 

[KoreBolteR]

That's great, but said other countries don't think they're the sodding world police.

>power =>responsibility

well, if any other country were in americas shoes, we would all be in trouble. id smell another nazi german army round my corner.

*AHEM* im gonna take over the world /*ahem* style country.

imo id rather a country that tried to police the world, than a country that tried to take over it.

 

[kirovman]

well, if any other country were in americas shoes, we would all be in trouble.

Yeah, I'd hate to see those Swedes or the Swiss in the same position.

Not to mention those bloodythirsty Welsh.

-I joke, I joke

 

[GhostFox]

Not to mention those bloodythirsty Welsh.

Wales has a proud millitary tradition. King Arthur was Welsh.

 

[Razor]

I'm not talking about his admission. I'm referring to the fact that CSIS (the canadian equivilant of the CIA) says that they have 100% proof that he trained in Afghanistan with Al-Qaeda. That is why they had him deported.



Look at my other posts. Research some admitted terrorists and the time they serve in Syria. Many are less then 2 years.

But why send a Canadian "terrorist" to Syria to serve 2 years of torture in Syria to be let go and then returned to Canada? The guy wasn't Syrian, he was Canadian, there was no evidence presented in a court of law to say of any links to Osama Bin Laden, etc.

 

[GhostFox]

The guy wasn't Syrian

Yes he was. He was born in Syria and retained Syrian citizenship.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Yeah, I'd hate to see those Swedes or the Swiss in the same position.

Not to mention those bloodythirsty Welsh.

-I joke, I joke

hehe.. u know what i mean.. countries like Iran/NK etc.. :E

lol wales in control of the world.. :upstare: lmfao

Wales has a proud millitary tradition. King Arthur was Welsh.

cheers GhostFox. :angel: indeed he was.

 

[kirovman]

Wales has a proud millitary tradition. King Arthur was Welsh.

Not as proud as the Scots, it seems.

Went to Edinburgh castle, it's filled up to the battlements with arms and weapons. I was a bit worried.

BTW I'm 1/4 welsh, for some reason.

 

[KoreBolteR]

But why send a Canadian "terrorist" to Syria to serve 2 years of torture in Syria to be let go and then returned to Canada? The guy wasn't Syrian, he was Canadian, there was no evidence presented in a court of law to say of any links to Osama Bin Laden, etc.

does living in Canada for a few years make him 'whole' canadian?
even if he was born in Syria, and had syrian parents?

 

[jondy]

well, if any other country were in americas shoes, we would all be in trouble. id smell another nazi german army round my corner.

*AHEM* im gonna take over the world /*ahem* style country.

imo id rather a country that tried to police the world, than a country that tried to take over it.

1. You're looking at the situation the wrong way around; if another country were in America's shoes, they'd be American in principle, and so your argument cancels itself out. Incidentally, Nazi expansion started out with using a certain doctrine as a scapegoat to 'free' states from their national government; the parallels are there if you look hard enough, but bear in mind Bushes intentions are irrelevant at this stage

2. There's a fine line between policing and autocracy, and your country is treading it. Don't be so sure you guys are inherently superior to the rest of the world. No civilisation lasts forever because none are flawless; only by your realising of flaws can they be eradicated, and if you guys are arrogant enough to assume zero flaws then God Bless America.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not talking about his admission. I'm referring to the fact that CSIS (the canadian equivilant of the CIA) says that they have 100% proof that he trained in Afghanistan with Al-Qaeda. That is why they had him deported.

really?

"The Canadian government maintains that the decision to deport Mr. Arar was taken by American officials alone."

Look at my other posts. Research some admitted terrorists and the time they serve in Syria. Many are less then 2 years.

so because he's syrian he must be a terrorist? that's like saying because I'm canadian I must be a lumberjack or live in an igloo

distortion of facts:

"His deportation was condemned by the Canadian government and other groups such as Amnesty International, as was the American immigration policy involving racial profiling. On October 29, 2002, the Canadian foreign affairs department issued a travel advisory strongly cautioning Canadians born in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya and Sudan against travel to the United States for any reason. (This development led to Pat Buchanan's "Soviet Canuckistan" comment.)

The American ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci, later told Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham that all Canadian passport holders would be treated equally. However, incidents attributed to racial profiling continue to be reported. In November 2002, George Radwanski, the Canadian privacy commissioner, recommended that birthplace information be removed from all Canadian passports in part because of such discrimination.


you've been reading too much Buchanan

 

[KoreBolteR]

1. You're looking at the situation the wrong way around; if another country were in America's shoes, they'd be American in principle, and so your argument cancels itself out. .

im saying that if any country had the same money, technology and military power as america has, the world would be over. especially if it was Syria, NK, Iran.

 

[GhostFox]

"The Canadian government maintains that the decision to deport Mr. Arar was taken by American officials alone."

Uh-huh. Come on. You are being purposefully naive to try to support your distorted point.

so because he's syrian he must be a terrorist?

No. Because he trained with Al-Qaeda he is however.

 

[Razor]

does living in Canada for a few years make him 'whole' canadian?
even if he was born in Syria, and had syrian parents?

He was legally a Canadian citizen, being a Canadian citizen makes you Canadian, he even married a Canadian didn't he?

 

[KoreBolteR]

He was legally a Canadian citizen, being a Canadian citizen makes you Canadian, he even married a Canadian didn't he?

a syrian with a Canadian disguise.
a terrorist that trained with Al Qaeda with a Canadian disguise.

 

[Razor]

Uh-huh. Come on. You are being purposefully naive to try to support your distorted point.

His point isn't distorted, your points of "America can do whatever it wants to anyone, no matter what country they're from, including rape, torture, sexual assault, murder, extortion, threats, etc" American is supposed to be the land of the free? Bah, only if you're not from the Middle East.

 

[Razor]

a syrian with a Canadian disguise.
a terrorist that trained with Al Qaeda with a Canadian disguise.

If he was a terrorist, then fine, but as a Canadian citizen, he should of been tried and jailed in Canada, not sent to America so they can send him to Syria to be tortured and mutilated.

 

[CptStern]

Uh-huh. Come on. You are being purposefully naive to try to support your distorted point.



No. Because he trained with Al-Qaeda he is however.

I want proof, I want to see where you came to the conclusion that he trained in afghanistan when he clearly stated he has never been there ...methinks you're just supporting your rediculous notion because it just so happens to be contrary to what I've posted ..he's a canadian citizen, we dont treat our citizens like that in canada. You should be outraged not complacent that one of your fellow canadians was torutured for nothing more than his nationality ...you'd understand that if you are actually canadian as you claim to be.

 

[kmack]

My main point (Supported by eyewitnesses, government officials, and documented from a respected news source) was that the CIA (Under a "extraordinary rendition" bill signed by our 41st President) is using a Gulfstream V and a Boeing 737 to transport SUSPECTED terrorists to countries whose regimes tolerate and utilize interrogation methods deemed torturous. These include boiling of limbs, pulling off toe and finger nails, and pulling away skin with pliers, as well as physical beatings, and mental anguish with deprivation of food and light. How can we (The U.S.) on one hand condemn Iraq under Saddamm Huessein for torture, and use the other hand to bring suspects to regimes who use torture, in the interest of getting information.

Just because the United States is not directly torturing these people does not allow us to condemn the act when we bring suspects to the torture chambers and utilize the evidence (if any) which we find.

Torture is long considered only semi-useful as it creates false leads, under such physical and mental stresses captives say whatever they can to stop the process.

Is it OK for the U.S. to condone and utilize torture in this fashion?

 

[GhostFox]

but as a Canadian citizen, he should of been tried and jailed in Canada

What about as a Syrian citizen? If he had given up his Syrian citizenship I would 100% agree with you. But that fact is he didn't. As long as he remains a Syrian citizen, he should understand that he faces the possibility of being jailed in Syria.

Look at it this way. Forget he is a terrorist. If he was strictly a Canadian citizen, if he stole a car in Syria, he would most likely be sent back to Canada for his incarceration. However if the same crime was commited by a dual-citizen, he most likely would serve his time inside Syria.

I don't think Syria should have tortured him, but he was charged with a criminal offense in Syria under the Syrian legal code and as a Syrian citizen, they have every right to prosecute him for it in Syria.

not sent to America

He wasn't sent to America. He was returning to Canada from abroad through the US when CSIS asked for him to be deported back to his home country, which happened to be Syria.

your points of "America can do whatever it wants to anyone, no matter what country they're from, including rape, torture, sexual assault, murder, extortion, threats, etc

That's not my point at all. In fact my point is that this has nothing to do with the US. My point is that Syria has every right to be able prosecute Syrian citizens for crimes commited in Syria. The Canadian govt. did nothing wrong by asking for his deportation. Syria did do something wrong by torturing him, and that is where peoples anger should fall. Instead of sidestepping the issue like we are now.

I want proof, I want to see where you came to the conclusion that he trained in afghanistan when he clearly stated he has never been there

I already gave it to you. CSIS stated that they were 100% positive that he trained in Afghanistan. Why would I take the word of a lying terrorist over that of CSIS?

he's a canadian citizen, we dont treat our citizens like that in canada.

He should be stripped of his citizenship. However that is not the point. Read my above points. It is pefectly legal for him to be prosecuted as a Syrian for as long as he maintains Syrian citizenship.

you'd understand that if you are actually canadian as you claim to be.

This again? I guess this means you have no case left. It's a sign that you are about to blather on inanely. Blather away Sterny.

 

[kmack]

What about as a Syrian citizen? If he had given up his Syrian citizenship I would 100% agree with you. But that fact is he didn't. As long as he remains a Syrian citizen, he should understand that he faces the possibility of being jailed in Syria.

Look at it this way. Forget he is a terrorist. If he was strictly a Canadian citizen, if he stole a car in Syria, he would most likely be sent back to Canada for his incarceration. However if the same crime was commited by a dual-citizen, he most likely would serve his time inside Syria.

I don't think Syria should have tortured him, but he was charged with a criminal offense in Syria under the Syrian legal code and as a Syrian citizen, they have every right to prosecute him for it in Syria.



He wasn't sent to America. He was returning to Canada from abroad through the US when CSIS asked for him to be deported back to his home country, which happened to be Syria.



That's not my point at all. In fact my point is that this has nothing to do with the US. My point is that Syria has every right to be able prosecute Syrian citizens for crimes commited in Syria. The Canadian govt. did nothing wrong by asking for his deportation. Syria did do something wrong by torturing him, and that is where peoples anger should fall. Instead of sidestepping the issue like we are now.



I already gave it to you. CSIS stated that they were 100% positive that he trained in Afghanistan. Why would I take the word of a lying terrorist over that of CSIS?



He should be stripped of his citizenship. However that is not the point. Read my above points. It is pefectly legal for him to be prosecuted as a Syrian for as long as he maintains Syrian citizenship.



This again? I guess this means you have no case left. It's a sign that you are about to blather on inanely. Blather away Sterny.

Ok, but does whatever this is about, make it ok for the united states to take suspects to brutal regimes, have them tortured, then return them home with no charges filed?

 

[CptStern]

What about as a Syrian citizen? If he had given up his Syrian citizenship I would 100% agree with you. But that fact is he didn't. As long as he remains a Syrian citizen, he should understand that he faces the possibility of being jailed in Syria.

so the fact that I have dual citizenship makes me suspect? :upstare:

Look at it this way. Forget he is a terrorist. If he was strictly a Canadian citizen, if he stole a car in Syria, he would most likely be sent back to Canada for his incarceration. However if the same crime was commited by a dual-citizen, he most likely would serve his time inside Syria.

I don't think Syria should have tortured him, but he was charged with a criminal offense in Syria under the Syrian legal code and as a Syrian citizen, they have every right to prosecute him for it in Syria.

do you ever research any of the bs you like to peddle??:

"He was not charged with anything, and he never would be charged with anything, but his life would be ruined"

source

He wasn't sent to America. He was returning to Canada from abroad through the US when CSIS asked for him to be deported back to his home country, which happened to be Syria.

"The Canadian government maintains that the decision to deport Mr. Arar was taken by American officials alone."

That's not my point at all. In fact my point is that this has nothing to do with the US. My point is that Syria has every right to be able prosecute Syrian citizens for crimes commited in Syria. The Canadian govt. did nothing wrong by asking for his deportation. Syria did do something wrong by torturing him, and that is where peoples anger should fall. Instead of sidestepping the issue like we are now.

what ****ing crimes? stop pushing your hate. He was charged with nothing, he received no trial, no conviction, no sentencing

I already gave it to you. CSIS stated that they were 100% positive that he trained in Afghanistan. Why would I take the word of a lying terrorist over that of CSIS?

so is that why he's a free man? is that why the Commission of Inquiry is looking into why he was illegally deported imprisoned and tortured?

He should be stripped of his citizenship. However that is not the point. Read my above points.

you should be stripped of your citizenship for peddling hate based on nationality and race

It is pefectly legal for him to be prosecuted as a Syrian for as long as he maintains Syrian citizenship.

for the last freakin time, HE WASNT CHARGED WITH ANYTHING!! NADA ZILCH, NOTHING

This again? I guess this means you have no case left. It's a sign that you are about to blather on inanely. Blather away Sterny.

you dont have a leg to stand ..I've blasted every single last one of your points, you havent brought anything to the table except your silly assertion that if he's syrian he MUST be a terrorist ..debating with you is like pissing in the wind