U.S. Outsourcing Torture

[kmack]

stern, honestly, what did you expect?

*edit* lol that was an intense post, i felt owned and it wasn't even directed at me :thumbs:

 

[gh0st]

Yes, it is arrogant. Get over yourself. You're having trouble enough thinking at stern's level anyway, so I suggest you concentrate on coming up with some valid counter-arguments instead of flamebaiting. It's clearly too much for you to do both at once.

Thinking at sterns level huh. IE thinking "high enough" to hate america? Maybe I'm not liberal enough for you. Not going to happen any time soon. I've already given my opinion of torture - take it however youd like, but I simply dont care. My contempt of stern is equal to his contempt for my country, so until he can say 5 GOOD things about America, I see no point in changing my point of view.

Oh, and by valid counter-argument do you mean type a generic search string into google and copy and paste the results? Thats not how debate or argument works and evolves thats just absurdity. You all think so highly of stern yet he's about as smart as the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button. How about stern comes up with a valid point which counters this: I dont care.

 

[GhostFox]

so the fact that I have dual citizenship makes me suspect?

No, however it gives Spain the right to prosecute you for crimes in Spain.

do you ever research any of the bs you like to peddle??:

"He was not charged with anything, and he never would be charged with anything, but his life would be ruined"

He was never publicly charged. He was charged by the Supreme State Security Court (SSSC), supposedly for belonging to an illegal terrorist orginization, but the details have never been made public. I don't think this is right, but it is no different then how any other criminal in Syria is treated. Which is why we should be pusing for reforms in Syria.

"The Canadian government maintains that the decision to deport Mr. Arar was taken by American officials alone."

We know what they are claiming publicly now, but come on, you know the truth. You know perfectly well that the US wouldn't have deported him to Syria if not for CSIS, so stop being so deliberately naive.

what ****ing crimes? stop pushing your hate. He was charged with nothing, he received no trial, no conviction, no sentencing

This was discussed above. What hate do I have? I think what Syria did was wrong. I just think that Syria has the right to prosecute a Syrian citizen.

so is that why he's a free man?

He obviously served his time in Syria, and he is obviously being monitored by the govt. for any further activities.

you should be stripped of your citizenship for peddling hate based on nationality and race

What's with you and the racism card? I don't hate anyone. I don't care what nationality he is. If he was a white american dual citizen, I'd support the right of the US to prosecute him for crimes in the US. Dual citizenship means you are subject to the whims of both nations. Deal with it.

for the last freakin time, HE WASNT CHARGED WITH ANYTHING!! NADA ZILCH, NOTHING

Again with this. Come on. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

you dont have a leg to stand ..I've blasted every single last one of your points

Come again? Are we in the magical land of make-believe or something?

you havent brought anything to the table except your silly assertion that if he's syrian he MUST be a terrorist

Actually that is your assertion. My assertion is simply that he is a terrorist who happens to be Syrian. Which is why he was sent back to Syria.

debating with you is like pissing in the wind

Hello pot? Kettle here.

If he was from England and he had been deported to Syria, this thread might have a point. The fact that he was Syrian however invalidates this.

 

[kirovman]

Spain can prosecute you in Spain if you commited crimes in Spain anyway?

One example I can think of: If you commit a drugs crime in Malaysia, you are liable to be sentenced to death, if you are American, European or whatever.

I read things about foreign consulate eg(UK FCO)on their FAQs, one of the things they say:

BUT Consuls cannot...
Intervene in court proceedings.
Get you out of prison.
Give legal advice or instigate court proceedings on your behalf.
Get better treatment for you in hospital or prison than is provided for local nationals.
Investigate a crime pay your hotel, legal, medical or any other bills.

It might not be relevant to this (ie deportation).

 

[jondy]

im saying that if any country had the same money, technology and military power as america has, the world would be over. especially if it was Syria, NK, Iran.

I know what you're saying, I addressed your point

I'll say it again - if Syria, NK or Iran had a similar GDP to America, then they wouldn't be in the position they are now, and as such your argument cancels itself out, because to be in a position of power like America is, you have to have a relatively high standard of living, and if NK, Iran or Syria had a high standard of living, they wouldn't be in the messes they're in now.

It's paradoxical.

 

[KoreBolteR]

I know what you're saying, I addressed your point

I'll say it again - if Syria, NK or Iran had a similar GDP to America, then they wouldn't be in the position they are now, and as such your argument cancels itself out, because to be in a position of power like America is, you have to have a relatively high standard of living, and if NK, Iran or Syria had a high standard of living, they wouldn't be in the messes they're in now.

It's paradoxical.

not really, look at thier leaders, madmen at thier worst.

itll be like terrorists with lots of money, technology and military power.

so your saying if saddam was the leader of a country like america, with all his officials with him, he would cause havoc, try and push his weight around and invade and kill millions of innocent people (WWII style).

 

[Calanen]

Thinking at sterns level huh. IE thinking "high enough" to hate america? Maybe I'm not liberal enough for you. Not going to happen any time soon. I've already given my opinion of torture - take it however youd like, but I simply dont care. My contempt of stern is equal to his contempt for my country, so until he can say 5 GOOD things about America, I see no point in changing my point of view.

Oh, and by valid counter-argument do you mean type a generic search string into google and copy and paste the results? Thats not how debate or argument works and evolves thats just absurdity. You all think so highly of stern yet he's about as smart as the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button. How about stern comes up with a valid point which counters this: I dont care.

Derailing the thread a bit - I don't think highly of Stern - although its an imperfect medium to be critical of someone's writing prowess. Hell I do stuff on the fly here too, they are not legal pleadings but forums posts for god sake. I think he has a real good go at pushing his barrow and makes some good points, not that I agree with most, or perhaps any of them. But I think he often clouds his reason with *bluster* and I can imagine him frothing at the mouth and smashing his computer room over some of the things that are said. Bit intemperate....

But Stern should be aware of his prejudices too - he gives every pass he can to the left, and bashes America from every angle whether there is proof or not by saying 'maybe...' "could have....'

You then default to 'You don't know me so dont say what I think' or something like this. You say that I know nothing of you. This is true, as far as whether you or your wife puts the garbage out at night. But I have seen enough of a pattern in your posts to see a clear anti-US agenda, that is more than critical of foreign policy, but raises every half-truth and loony comment made by any1 that is adverse to the United States to be gospel proof undeniable of the Evil American Empire. And when these half-truths and lies are smashed, more half-truths and lies are found.

Stern also posts inaccuracies, and then repeats them over and over again, and then finally drops them when you have bludgeoned him with them sufficiently. Like the 90% of car pursuits are only because of minor traffic offences, ie the people in the cars pursued are just poor traffic violators. That was not right. It was never right. He knew it was not. And he posted again, and again 90%..... until finally dropping it.He then quotes the reference to one study which suggested that, that *I* put there - and said, see you were wrong - when this study was only part of matters referred to, and came from an interview of offenders and their opinions, not actual arrest records. This was me attempting to give both sides of the argument - but where has Stern ever done this?

But this pattern continues througout his posts and he operates on the Moore journalistic standard of take a sandlike grain of truth and make it into a beach of falsehoods to promote 'the cause'.

But Ghost, take heart in a story a US friend of mine told me when he was recently in London. He was there for a few weeks, and had copped crap from the champagne socialists about the War (he said do you think the President gives me a call when he needs advice? or that I can pass on complaints to him), American Economic policy, and George Bush. He took this all in his stride until, on the last night at dinner with a group of people a Scottish guy went into a big diatribie about the US, and then said

'You Americans think that you rule the world!'

And he said 'Let's be clear about this. We do rule the world, and all of your bitching is not gonna do a damn thing to change that.'

 

[gh0st]

I just dont have the energy to argue with him, you have to smash your opinion through his head and it never works - all he does is feed the conservative fire. All I see when I look at his posts are:
link
link
link
link
link
link
link

None with any substance, half from the socialist world daily, and I'll be damned if i'm going to tread through them to respond to his America hating. What really irks me though is look at me. I'm about as extreme as stern but- wait a minute. I just acknowledged that! All of sterns liberal bootlicking fan club think he's so freakin moderate and such a wise old sage but nothing can be further from the truth. He's the underhanded type of liberal who claims moderation but pushes this extreme and sickening agenda of hate. Woo hoo. At least I'm open about it; more importantly though all my hate for others is a reaction of opinions imposed upon me.. not some naturally bred trait that I display.

 

[Calanen]

I want proof, I want to see where you came to the conclusion that he trained in afghanistan when he clearly stated he has never been there ...methinks you're just supporting your rediculous notion because it just so happens to be contrary to what I've posted ..he's a canadian citizen, we dont treat our citizens like that in canada. You should be outraged not complacent that one of your fellow canadians was torutured for nothing more than his nationality ...you'd understand that if you are actually canadian as you claim to be.

Is it so unexpected that a person who is accused of being terrorst denies it? Just because he denies it does not mean there is no work to do. Were a simple denial necessary to provide someone with a get out of jail free card - we could clear almost all of the criminal cases off of every judge's docket in every criminal court. I do not know the full circumstances of this case (and I suspect neither does Stern) but I do know, that the police and the FBI and the CIA do not just arrest random people. Guantanomo Bay had 354 people detained there at last count. Of the 100s of 1000s of people the US has fought with in the last few years, that is not very many. To make the Camp X-Ray list, you are on the top of the pops. Has the US made mistakes? Sure - they have let people go who were cleared, at least one of which has later admitted in the Al Quada press that he fooled them.

But denial of guilt = innocent (or rather denial of being guilty of anything the US government accuess you of = innocence) is taking it too far.

 

[CptStern]

hahahah you guys are so freakin hilarious ..seriously, I chuckled to myself at some of your crazy, no wait ...insane ramblings ..all this attention for just little ol me? ..dont have much time right now, but I'll be back to square up

 

[gh0st]

hahahah you guys are so freakin hilarious ..seriously, I chuckled to myself at some of your crazy, no wait ...insane ramblings ..all this attention for just little ol me? ..dont have much time right now, but I'll be back to square up

I didnt start it sweetheart, I'm just gonna finish it. The only thing insane and rambling is what you spew forth from your bottomless mouth... I'm getting sick of it, though in many ways its awe inspiring how you can hate something so much and yet no matter how many arguments of wit you lose (which is 99.5% of them) you never budge. Just more links for us to digest. Its amazing that nobody told you before.

 

[CptStern]

heh, the day you best me is the day I'm lowered 6 feet

 

[gh0st]

heh, the day you best me is the day I'm lowered 6 feet

Hows it feel down there?

 

[el Chi]

I didnt start it sweetheart, I'm just gonna finish it. The only thing insane and rambling is what you spew forth from your bottomless mouth... I'm getting sick of it, though in many ways its awe inspiring how you can hate something so much and yet no matter how many arguments of wit you lose (which is 99.5% of them) you never budge. Just more links for us to digest. Its amazing that nobody told you before.

I can't believe how hypocritical you are sometimes, gh0st. You only say that Stern loses the debate because you feel he has and the only reason you feel that is because you never budge either.
Don't act as if you're constantly open-minded to the facts or arguments that people post on these boards because you always come at them from the same bloody perspective. At no point have I ever seen you acknowledge that someone opposed to your views has even the slightest shadow of a point.
It's boring and it's disgusting.

In all fairness, I should point out that I also accept that Stern is hardly Mr. Objective, but don't accuse him of being so stubborn when you're just as bad.

 

[gh0st]

I can't believe how hypocritical you are sometimes, gh0st. You only say that Stern loses the debate because you feel he has and the only reason you feel that is because you never budge either.

Don't act as if you're constantly open-minded to the facts or arguments that people post on these boards because you always come at them from the same bloody perspective. At no point have I ever seen you acknowledge that someone opposed to your views has even the slightest shadow of a point.
It's boring and it's disgusting.

I'm not hypocritical. I'm openly an extremist, I even said so in an earlier post - in this very thread. Facts dont translate into changed opinions. I know I'm not going to change anybodys fundamental beliefs on a message board with some paragraph blurb. But others think a constant barrage of twisted facts and one big charrade will change peoples minds. You speak this evil about me, sure. But youd never say it about stern, because he's exactly the same as me - only he's the other denomination, which conviently is what you are as well. I will most certainly budge when I'm clearly beaten, so far that hasnt happened. I hope it does. But my opinion will most certainly not be changed by an American hating fascist.

In all fairness, I should point out that I also accept that Stern is hardly Mr. Objective, but don't accuse him of being so stubborn when you're just as bad.

Please see my earlier post

None with any substance, half from the socialist world daily, and I'll be damned if i'm going to tread through them to respond to his America hating. What really irks me though is look at me. I'm about as extreme as stern but- wait a minute. I just acknowledged that! All of sterns liberal bootlicking fan club think he's so freakin moderate and such a wise old sage but nothing can be further from the truth. He's the underhanded type of liberal who claims moderation but pushes this extreme and sickening agenda of hate. Woo hoo. At least I'm open about it; more importantly though all my hate for others is a reaction of opinions imposed upon me.. not some naturally bred trait that I display.​

 

[bliink]

The amount of off topic, "mines bigger" type arguments in here made me vomit a little bit in my mouth.

How about getting on topic instead of all this "I know how to debate" BS

 

[gh0st]

The amount of off topic, "mines bigger" type arguments in here made me vomit a little bit in my mouth.

How about getting on topic instead of all this "I know how to debate" BS

Dodgeball jokes aside, why dont you let things work themselves out? Why dont you see that conversation is dynamic not a static entity defined by threads? Obviously it provokes more discussion so why shouldnt it be allowed?

 

[bliink]

Dodgeball jokes aside, why dont you let things work themselves out? Why dont you see that conversation is dynamic not a static entity defined by threads? Obviously it provokes more discussion so why shouldnt it be allowed?

Because it devolves into the same back and forth arguments that are either about "My politics are better than yours" or "I'm smarter than you"
Neither of those are helpful or wanted.

 

[CptStern]

funny how this all de-railed as soon as I posted ..ironically enough I was on topic

 

[kmack]

The amount of off topic, "mines bigger" type arguments in here made me vomit a little bit in my mouth.

How about getting on topic instead of all this "I know how to debate" BS

huzzah, its the voice of reason! Save my topic Mod Of Justice!

 

[bliink]

huzzah, its the voice of reason! Save my topic Mod Of Justice!

stop going off topic, and maybe I can.

 

[kmack]

OK third attempt to reiterate this thread and maybe get some discussion about the topic.

My main point (Supported by eyewitnesses, government officials, and documented from a respected news source) was that the CIA (Under a "extraordinary rendition" bill signed by our 41st President) is using a Gulfstream V and a Boeing 737 to transport SUSPECTED terrorists to countries whose regimes tolerate and utilize interrogation methods deemed torturous. These include boiling of limbs, pulling off toe and finger nails, and pulling away skin with pliers, as well as physical beatings, and mental anguish with deprivation of food and light. How can we (The U.S.) on one hand condemn Iraq under Saddamm Huessein for torture, and use the other hand to bring suspects to regimes who use torture, in the interest of getting information.

Just because the United States is not directly torturing these people does not allow us to condemn the act when we bring suspects to the torture chambers and utilize the evidence (if any) which we find.

Torture is long considered only semi-useful as it creates false leads, under such physical and mental stresses captives say whatever they can to stop the process.

Is it OK for the U.S. to condone and utilize torture in this fashion?

 

[Calanen]

hahahah you guys are so freakin hilarious ..seriously, I chuckled to myself at some of your crazy, no wait ...insane ramblings ..all this attention for just little ol me? ..dont have much time right now, but I'll be back to square up

Trolling violation! Bliink he was mean to me! He hurt my forum feelings!

 

[bliink]

Trolling violation! Bliink he was mean to me! He hurt my forum feelings!

Is just a tiny amount of fricken maturity too much?!

 

[kmack]

Is just a tiny amount of fricken maturity too much?!

is this your first time in the politics forum? Because I assure you, it is too much to ask :naughty:

 

[bliink]

is this your first time in the politics forum? Because I assure you, it is too much to ask :naughty:

You're on 8 warnings, so I'd watch out, k?

 

[kmack]

You're on 8 warnings, so I'd watch out, k?

sry,

k everyone shows over, back on topic

*edit* already one post after this one is off topic
and with that, the thread dies, sad truth is, on topic is too hard for some people.

 

[Calanen]

Is just a tiny amount of fricken maturity too much?!

Probably not. But laughing at stuff gets me through the day, or days. Ill try though.

 

[bliink]

Probably not. But laughing at stuff gets me through the day, or days. Ill try though.

Great. Here's the joke thread. Now back on topic.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Rendetion was enacted under Clinton. You can't blame this on Bush.

Yep. Oh you know, they're going to eat it all one day. That'll be after we eat are's, as is the pecking order around here.

this is what I have to endure in lieu of attacking facts ..at every step of the way you knucledraggers must use the same tired over-simplified rationale in discrediting me as "just another america the brave hater" .."terrorist sympathizer" "communist" "hippie" ....your motivations are transparent ..I will not be shouted down by malcontents and loudmouths bent on discrediting every single last criticsim aimed at the war.

Truth hurts, does'nt it Stern? Oh, I was'nt attacking you, I was just questioning it. I'd be interested to see your answers.

shellback you cant disguise your bigotry

You can't disguise yours either. See, this is what you make us endure. You plot and ploy with these passive-aggressive remarks, and then go cower in a corner when we reply with something equally as aggevating.

Tsk Tsk Tsk, indeed Stern.

ya that sounds like someone who's been waiting all his life to engage in terrorist activities

This is of course, only because you did'nt fill in the blanks.

 

[jondy]

not really, look at thier leaders, madmen at thier worst.

itll be like terrorists with lots of money, technology and military power.

so your saying if saddam was the leader of a country like america, with all his officials with him, he would cause havoc, try and push his weight around and invade and kill millions of innocent people (WWII style).

You're not listening! I said that the hypothesis is paradoxical, because to be a country like America you have to have a high GDP and clearly if Saddam or said other nasty, nasty men were in power, the country inherently would not achieve said high GDP and as such wouldn't be able to punch the same political / economic weight as America.

C'mon, you know I'm right

 

[Bodacious]

The CIA would not officially comment on its operation, known as "extraordinary rendition." The program began under an executive order signed by President George H.W. Bush in December 1992

Sorry, but I can blame this on Bush. You can't enact whats not there.

Took me long enought but I found it.

What is your source Kmack? My source says extraordinary rendition was created under clinton:

Presidential Decision Directives - PDD #39

Presidential Decision Directives - PDD #62

http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/?050214on_onlineonly01

President Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales all made similar statements last month, asserting that not only does the United States condemn torture, it also does not send U.S.-held suspects to other countries for torture. In reality, the record appears to be quite different. Beginning around 1995, the Central Intelligence Agency inaugurated a form of extradition sometimes referred to as "extraordinary rendition," in which captured foreign terrorism suspects have been transported by the U.S. to third countries for interrogation and prosecution.

And just so you can't blame this all on Bush:

Extraordinary Rendition: Not Just for Republicans!

CIA-Backed Team Used Brutal Means To Break Up Terrorist Cell in Albania

By ANDREW HIGGINS and CHRISTOPHER COOPER
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

TIRANA, Albania -- Ahmed Osman Saleh stepped off a minibus here in the Albanian capital in July 1998 and caught what would be his last glimpse of daylight for three days. As he paid the driver, Albanian security agents slipped a white cloth bag over Mr. Saleh's head, bound his limbs with plastic shackles and tossed him into the rear of a hatchback vehicle.

Supervising the operation from a nearby car were agents from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency.

Mr. Saleh's Albanian captors sped over rutted roads to an abandoned air base 35 miles north of Tirana. There, recalled an Albanian security agent who participated, guards dumped the bearded self-confessed terrorist on the floor of a windowless bathroom.

After two days of interrogation by CIA agents and sporadic beatings by Albanian guards, Mr. Saleh was put aboard a CIA-chartered plane and flown to Cairo, according to the Albanian agent and a confession Egyptian police elicited from Mr. Saleh in September 1998. "I remained blindfolded until I got off the plane," Mr. Saleh said in the confession, a document written in Arabic longhand that he signed at the bottom.

There were more beatings and torture at the hands of Egyptian authorities. And 18 months after he was grabbed outside the Garden of Games, a Tirana childrens' park, Mr. Saleh was hanged in an Egyptian prison yard.

By the Script
His capture was one of five scripted and overseen by American agents as part of a covert 1998 operation to deport members of the Egyptian Jihad organization to Cairo from the Balkans. At the time, Egyptian Jihad was merging with Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network. U.S. authorities considered the Tirana cell among the most dangerous terror outfits in Europe. The CIA has refused to acknowledge the 1998 operation. But privately, U.S. officials have described it as one of the most successful counterterrorism
efforts in the annals of the intelligence agency....

About a dozen U.S. agents arrived in Albania to plan the arrests, according to their Albanian counterparts. CIA and SHIK operatives spent three months devising the operation, often meeting in a conference room next to Mr. Klosi's office.

On June 25, 1998, the Egyptian government issued a prearranged arrest warrant for Mr. Attiya, the forger, and demanded his deportation. Most such requests to Western countries had been ignored in the past, said Hisham Saraya, Egypt's attorney general at the time. This one was not.

That day, while driving in his 1986 Audi in Tirana, Mr. Attiya found himself being trailed by an Albanian police car and another vehicle, he later recalled in his confession. He was stopped and arrested. The same day, Albanian security officers raided his home and found more than 50 plates and stamps used to produce fake visas and other bogus documents, according to court records from his 1999 trial.

Several days later, he was taken, handcuffed and blindfolded, to the abandoned air base, north of Tirana. "There, a private plane was waiting for me," he said in his confession. Once in Cairo, he was blindfolded again and driven to Egypt's state security offices on July 2, 1998. "Since then, the interrogations have not stopped," he said.

Mr. Attiya later told his lawyer, Hafez Abu-Saada, that while being questioned, he was subjected to electrical shocks to his genitals, suspended by his limbs, dragged on his face, and made to stand for hours in a cell, with filthy water up to his knees. Mr. Abu-Saada, who represented all five members of the Tirana cell, subsequently recorded their complaints in a published report.

Also deported from Tirana was Mr. Naggar. He was nabbed in July 1998 by SHIK on a road outside of town. He, too, was blindfolded and spirited home on a CIA plane. In complaints in his confession and to his defense lawyer, Mr. Abu-Saada, Mr. Naggar said his Egyptian interrogators regularly applied electrical shocks to his nipples and penis.

Mr. Naggar's brother, Mohamed, said in an interview that he and his relatives also were -- and continue to be -- harassed and tortured by Egyptian police. He said he had suffered broken ribs and fractured cheekbones. "They changed my features," Mohamed Naggar said, touching his face.

About two weeks after Messrs. Attiya and Naggar were deported to Egypt, Albanian security agents took Mr. Tita, the dues-collector, from his Tirana apartment. They covered his head and put him on a plane. "After I was arrested, [Egyptian interrogators] hung me from my wrists and applied electricity to parts of my feet and back," he said in his confession.

As the CIA operation drew to a close, an Arab newspaper in London published a letter on August 5, 1998, signed by the International Islamic Front for Jihad. The letter vowed revenge for the counterterrorism drive in Albania, promising to retaliate against Americans in a "language they will understand."

Two days later, U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were blown up, killing 224 people. U.S. investigators have attributed the embassy bombings to al Qaeda and now believe the attacks were planned far in advance. At the time, American officials were rattled enough about the possible connection to the
Tirana arrests that they closed the U.S. Embassy there, moving the staff to a more-secure compound across town.

The embassy bombings didn't stop the CIA from going after Mr. Saleh in Tirana. In August, Albanian security agents grabbed him outside the children's park. During two months of detention in Egypt, he was suspended from the ceiling of his cell and given electrical shocks, he told his lawyer, Mr. Abu-Saada. Also rounded up was Essam Abdel-Tawwab, an Egyptian Jihad member who had lived for a time in Tirana before moving to Sofia, Bulgaria. He, too, later told Mr. Abu-Saada he was tortured. Egyptian prosecutors acknowledged in court documents that they observed a "recovered wound" on Mr. Tawwab's body.

 

[jondy]

Bodacious, you've gotter fix your sig, it's just embarressing

 

[CptStern]

Derailing the thread a bit - I don't think highly of Stern

hmmm ...that's revelation :upstare:

But I think he often clouds his reason with *bluster* and I can imagine him frothing at the mouth and smashing his computer room over some of the things that are said. Bit intemperate....

well considering I'm either at work or at home late at night with the baby sleeping in the next room kinda percludes me from "frothing at the mouth and smashing his computer room " ...what do you do when you lose your temper? fire off a couple of rounds? pledge allegience to the flag? read a few chapters out of Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual? ....pretty baseless accusations I making huh? it goes both ways

But Stern should be aware of his prejudices too - he gives every pass he can to the left, and bashes America from every angle whether there is proof or not by saying 'maybe...' "could have....'

and how would you know? it's not like you spend anytime outside of the politics forum anyway (besides the first few posts you made so as to not draw any suspiscion) ..do you even play games? do you even own a computer? or is the delapidated 386 in the barracks enough for ya? ...again, pretty baseless accusations I'm making here ....huh? hey maybe you're a baby eating cigar chomping rambo type who loves to carve up babies on the side ....pretty baseless accusations I'm making here ...huh?

You then default to 'You don't know me so dont say what I think' or something like this. You say that I know nothing of you. This is true, as far as whether you or your wife puts the garbage out at night.

you have no clue ..I could be a murdering rapist or a traveling minister for all you know ...oh I used to be a space cowboy but I had to give that up because the boys at cygnus x1 told me to ....sounds pretty rediculous when someone bases an opinion based on what another person writes ...Hey when I was young I strangled 2 pythons, an elephant and a small dog ..but hey, you should know that cuz ...you know my "type"

But I have seen enough of a pattern in your posts to see a clear anti-US agenda, that is more than critical of foreign policy, but raises every half-truth and loony comment made by any1 that is adverse to the United States to be gospel proof undeniable of the Evil American Empire. And when these half-truths and lies are smashed, more half-truths and lies are found.

bullshit ..is this a half-truth? ...if it truely is, why dont you disprove it?

Stern also posts inaccuracies, and then repeats them over and over again, and then finally drops them when you have bludgeoned him with them sufficiently. Like the 90% of car pursuits are only because of minor traffic offences, ie the people in the cars pursued are just poor traffic violators. That was not right. It was never right. He knew it was not. And he posted again, and again 90%..... until finally dropping it.He then quotes the reference to one study which suggested that, that *I* put there - and said, see you were wrong - when this study was only part of matters referred to, and came from an interview of offenders and their opinions, not actual arrest records. This was me attempting to give both sides of the argument - but where has Stern ever done this?

and so maybe I should list all the good things america has done in iraq when talking about the water treatment plan bombings ..."oh they're fighting for democracy ..oh but they killed 500,000 children" ...ya, that makes a lot of sense

But this pattern continues througout his posts and he operates on the Moore journalistic standard of take a sandlike grain of truth and make it into a beach of falsehoods to promote 'the cause'.

sandgrain of truth?

But Ghost, take heart in a story a US friend of mine told me when he was recently in London. He was there for a few weeks, and had copped crap from the champagne socialists about the War (he said do you think the President gives me a call when he needs advice? or that I can pass on complaints to him), American Economic policy, and George Bush. He took this all in his stride until, on the last night at dinner with a group of people a Scottish guy went into a big diatribie about the US, and then said

'You Americans think that you rule the world!'

And he said 'Let's be clear about this. We do rule the world, and all of your bitching is not gonna do a damn thing to change that.'

hah, 6 guys armed with box cutters proved you otherwise. Sure you may have the most weapons, money etc but that's meaningless in this day and age when most attacks come from unexpected areas ...bask in your "imperialism" for one day, just like rome, all the bad karma will come back to bite you in the ass

 

[Calanen]

Stern - your post was just trolling and insults and you posting another copy of the Centcom report about bombing in the Gulf War.

I am not going to degenerate into a slanging match with personal insults thrown back at you.

But the fact that you seem to take 'delight' in the deaths of people in the terrorist attacks on the United States:

hah, 6 guys armed with box cutters proved you otherwise. Sure you may have the most weapons, money etc but that's meaningless in this day and age when most attacks come from unexpected areas ...bask in your "imperialism" for one day, just like rome, all the bad karma will come back to bite you in the ass

the majority of whom were civilians, just demonstrates clearly, to everyone what your agenda really is.

And Stern, Im betting that the USA will be here, long after you are gone.

 

[kmack]

Stern - your post was just trolling and insults and you posting another copy of the Centcom report about bombing in the Gulf War.

I am not going to degenerate into a slanging match with personal insults thrown back at you.

But the fact that you seem to take 'delight' in the deaths of people in the terrorist attacks on the United States:



the majority of whom were civilians, just demonstrates clearly, to everyone what your agenda really is.

And Stern, Im betting that the USA will be here, long after you are gone.

and what may I ask, is this post?

This has nothing to do with my topic. Please remove. Same with you Stern

please keep this thread on topic. Keep your petty problems with Stern to PM's.

 

[jondy]

But the fact that you seem to take 'delight' in the deaths of people in the terrorist attacks on the United States:

And Stern, Im betting that the USA will be here, long after you are gone.

Bullshit. He's simply highlighting your arrogance, which is even more evident above.

Don't try and tar him with the 'hates america' brush, it's old-****ing-hat, and it says more about you than him.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

This has nothing to do with my topic. Please remove. Same with you Stern

please keep this thread on topic. Keep your petty problems with Stern to PM's.

One lowly member to the next -- keep your nose out of such things.

Bullshit. He's simply highlighting your arrogance, which is even more evident above.

Or yours, by posting a belief, which is indeed just for shock factor, on how arrogant another member's behavior is simply to savior your side's arguement.

I debate with arrogant people all of them time -- we all do; but it does'nt mean we should'nt listen to their opinions. ... and not like you'd think, is everyone here arrogant or deserving of insults.

Infact, none are.

 

[kmack]

One lowly member to the next -- keep your nose out of such things.

My thread buddy, I have a right to ask people who are dragging it off topic with petty fights to stop.

Or yours, by posting a belief, which is indeed just for shock factor, on how arrogant another member's behavior is simply to savior your side's arguement.

I debate with arrogant people all of them time -- we all do; but it does'nt mean we should'nt listen to their opinions. ... and not like you'd think, is everyone here arrogant or deserving of insults.

Infact, none are.

Give me a single thing in this post that correlates in any way shape or form to the US outsourcing of terror which I posted this thread to discuss.

Please, everyone, stay on the topic, No one cares about what you think of someone else's debating style.

 

[kmack]

NOw, back to the topic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7120650/

how can we possibly condone this type of behaviour!