UN Report says Israel targeted civilians in Gaza

[Escaep]

I didn't read past the first 2 pages but anyone find it ironic that the only christian in here is the one saying that bombing a shelfter full of innocent women and children is just fine? I thought the people without religion were supposed to be the ones that are morally corrupt?

Umm. What? So I if im a pilot and bomb a shelter full of civilian women and children thats not morally wrong?

kthx.

 

[No Limit]

kthx.

I should have clarified who I was talking about. Didn't realize we had so many christians here. Actually that kind of disappoints me.

 

[Escaep]

I should have clarified who I was talking about. Didn't realize we had so many christians here. Actually that kind of disappoints me.

Its disappointing that it bothers you.


But anyway, lets not have this get into another religious debate. Carry on.

 

[Maturin]

Puns aside, urban warfare is always exceptionally bloody, particularly when prosecuted by/against unconventional forces. Civilians will always die in an urban war.

That's true, and I'm not disagreeing with you, but Gaza is also different. The unprecedented, exceptional part is that the Israelis have locked these civilians in Gaza. They essentially forced them to remain on a firing range while they shoot at an enemy that they helped to create, and they created it with the express purpose of sowing strife among he Palestinians.

 

[CptStern]

I listened to a call from a palestinian doctor who worked on the israeli side but who was trapped in gaza by the war. His house was shelled and 3 of his daughters and a niece were killed by israeli shells. no aid was ever sent out.

edit: gotta love the internet, here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4fF2HN4

 

[Officer Combine]

You're a ****ed up little dude.



Immeasurably, yes.

Okay then.

 

[Absinthe]

I realize that probably wasn't the most constructive or contributing post I made, but surely you can muster more than that.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Warned ya!

 

[Officer Combine]

All religions have different moralities. Some agree on some points. Therefore, I can't possibly muster more.

 

[jet_porkins]

In Officer Combine's defense, he put his thoughts on a post just before you banned him.

Too late I guess.

 

[Sulkdodds]

It's for three days. Carry on.

 

[Fiberawptic]

this comes as no surprise to anyone who followed the 3 week war in gaza. Although this validates what most people already knew

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090323/ts_nm/us_un_rights_israel

more details:




Israel's response:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

Well you seem more interested in poking fingers at Israel who simply did what most countries have done in times of conflict. You're more worried about Israel, the West's only ally in the Middle East, killing a few a citizens in crossfire rather than terrorist organizations such as Hammas or Al Queda who have done much worse to civilian populations around the world. Heres a small one: 9/11. So why am i not seeing you create a topic when a suicide bomber takes the life of a dozen soldiers or citizens, which seems to happen almost every week in Iraq. Not to mention radical Palestinians have done it countless times in Israeli public places...

You liberals are so fun to have around.

 

[Eejit]

Wow, you're like a parody.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Well you seem more interested in poking fingers at Israel who simply did what most countries have done in times of conflict.

Most countries don't blockade an entire country and control all it's borders and airspace. The Palestinians are like prisoners, they can't import key supplies nor can they export goods destroying the economy.

You're more worried about Israel, the West's only ally in the Middle East, killing a few a citizens in crossfire rather than terrorist organizations such as Hammas or Al Queda who have done much worse to civilian populations around the world.

Al Queda have nothing to do with this conflict. Also ordering a Farther out of his house then killing his entire family does not sound like crossfire, nor does making an 11-year-old boy walk in front of them for several hours while they are invading. Israel used illegal weapons under international law such as White Phosphorous, and destroyed aid for the Palestinians.

Heres a small one: 9/11. So why am i not seeing you create a topic when a suicide bomber takes the life of a dozen soldiers or citizens, which seems to happen almost every week in Iraq. Not to mention radical Palestinians have done it countless times in Israeli public places...

How many die in Iraq due to suicide bomb? I can guarantee it won't be nowhere near as high as the amount Israel killed during this conflict. Also why bring 9/11 into it? The Palestinians were not involved in it, is it that they are Muslim in the middle east then they must hate the west and are fair game.

Again i hear the "radical Palestinians" line. Why are they radical, because they are trying to fight for their freedom. They are dieing in Gaza due to this blockade. You can't blockade an entire population and not expect resistance.

 

[Fiberawptic]

Most countries don't blockade an entire country and control all it's borders and airspace. The Palestinians are like prisoners, they can't import key supplies nor can they export goods destroying the economy.



Al Queda have nothing to do with this conflict. Also ordering a Farther out of his house then killing his entire family does not sound like crossfire, nor does making an 11-year-old boy walk in front of them for several hours while they are invading. Israel used illegal weapons under international law such as White Phosphorous, and destroyed aid for the Palestinians.



How many die in Iraq due to suicide bomb? I can guarantee it won't be nowhere near as high as the amount Israel killed during this conflict. Also why bring 9/11 into it? The Palestinians were not involved in it, is it that they are Muslim in the middle east then they must hate the west and are fair game.

Again i hear the "radical Palestinians" line. Why are they radical, because they are trying to fight for their freedom. They are dieing in Gaza due to this blockade. You can't blockade an entire population and not expect resistance.

I'll go through each paragraph. First of all, you probably aren't aware 'Palestine' was never a designated country. It was merely a name refering to a certain region of land in the mid-east. It was British owned for a long period of time and with permission of the UN, made a country called 'Israel'. So don't pull this bullcrap out of your ass like they went and swipped an entire country and terrorized its peoples. Thats not how it was and is, so until you've experience either Totalitarian rule, been to jail, or Communism, you have no right in blindly making assumptions 'oh, dey r lik prisonars'.

And you'd be suprised how often suicide bombing occurs in several areas of the mid-east. You again are making assumptions that are actually quite the opposite. I don't care enough about this debate to go do research on this, but a few years ago, a Palestinian man blew up an entire mall in Tel Aviv killing around 200 i believe. Thats just one time, and i guarantee you, theres many more.

I actually used the word 'radical' hoping to avoid people like you whining about generalizations. I used it to only refer to the people who commit atrocities, but not all Palestinians. You think i don't realize that not every Palestinian commits atrocities? If i just said 'Palestinians', that would be generalizing, but i'm only refering to the ones that do sick things hence i was specify radical Palestinians.

 

[CptStern]

but a few years ago, a Palestinian man blew up an entire mall in Tel Aviv killing around 200 i believe. Thats just one time, and i guarantee you, theres many more.

which one of these incidents are you referring to?

pattern of suicide bombings in Tel Aviv since 2000:

1. February 25th, 2005 / The Stage club: "Four people are killed and at least 30 people are injured in a bomb blast outside a night club in Tel Aviv, weeks after Israeli and Palestinian leaders declare a truce."
2. November 1st, 2004 / Carmel Market: "A teenage suicide bomber kills at least three people in the crowded Carmel market in Tel Aviv."
3. July 11th, 2004 / Near the Old Central Bus Station: "One person is killed and 21 are wounded by a bomb packed with metal bolts, which explodes near a bus stop in Tel Aviv."
4. April 30th, 2003 / Mike's Place bar: "A suicide bomber attacks a popular cafe in Tel Aviv, just hours after a new Palestinian cabinet wins approval under Abu Mazen who has pledged to crack down on militants. At least four people including the bomber are killed and dozens more injured."
5. January 5th, 2003 / Near the Old Central Bus Station: "At least 23 people are killed and 100 wounded when two suicide attackers set off charges in crowded, parallel and adjacent streets during rush hour in Tel Aviv, echoing an attack in July 2001."
6. October 10th, 2002 / Near the Old Central Bus Station: "A suicide bomber kills himself and a woman in an attack on a bus stop near Tel Aviv."
7. September 19th, 2002 / Near Allenby and Montefiore: "A suicide attack on a bus in Tel Aviv kills five and injures more than 50. A sixth victim - a medical student from Scotland - dies from his injuries the following day."
8. June 1st, 2001 / The Dolphinarium club: "Suicide bomb attack on a disco in Tel Aviv leaves 21 people dead and more than 60 others injured. Islamic Jihad claim responsibility."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm

Well you seem more interested in poking fingers at Israel who simply did what most countries have done in times of conflict.

use human shields, deliberately target civilians, fire upon medical personnel?

You're more worried about Israel, the West's only ally in the Middle East, killing a few a citizens in crossfire

crossfire?

Israeli soldiers shot a father after ordering him out of his house and then opened fire into the room where the rest of the family was sheltering, wounding the mother and three brothers and killing a fourth.

that doesnt sound like "caught in a crossfire"

rather than terrorist organizations such as Hammas or Al Queda who have done much worse to civilian populations around the world. Heres a small one: 9/11.

far far far more civilians have died by state terrorism than any rag tag group of nutjobs armed with boxcutters

casualties of 3 week Gaza war:

israeli casualties:
Total killed: 13
Soldiers: 10
Civilians: 3


palestinian casualties:

Total killed: 1,417
Militants and policemen: 491
Civilians: 926

your terrorists killed 3 civilians whereas israelis military killed 926 civilians ...whom is more effective at killing civilians?

So why am i not seeing you create a topic when a suicide bomber takes the life of a dozen soldiers or citizens, which seems to happen almost every week in Iraq.

well obviously you support terrorism because I have YET to see you start any topic on specific suicide bombers so it MUST mean you actually support them ......right?

You liberals are so fun to have around.

you've lost what little credibility you had (admittedly next to none) by framing this as a liberal or conservative issue ...you conservatives are predictable like that

 

[Sulkdodds]

I'll go through each paragraph. First of all, you probably aren't aware 'Palestine' was never a designated country. It was merely a name refering to a certain region of land in the mid-east. It was British owned for a long period of time and with permission of the UN, made a country called 'Israel'.

What precisely is the relevance of this?

 

[CptStern]

it's an excercise in brow beating his opponent through the use of unrelated facts?

 

[jet_porkins]

What precisely is the relevance of this?

I think he was referring to

Most countries don't blockade an entire country and control all it's borders and airspace. The Palestinians are like prisoners, they can't import key supplies nor can they export goods destroying the economy.

but as far as the topic-at-hand goes, I'm not entirely sure.

your terrorists killed 3 civilians whereas israelis military killed 926 civilians ...whom is more effective at killing civilians?

Stern I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but of course a large-scale military invasion will generate faster-paced civilian deaths than consistent, inaccurate (but still deadly) rockets and mortars being fired into a population zone.

Let's pretend that it were a full-scale Palestinian/Arab military invasion into Israel. My hypothesis is that if one were able to compare the numbers of casualties under the Israeli offensive versus casualties under a hypothetical Hamas military offensive, those amount of civilian casualties would be balanced at the very least.

Albeit whether you're right or wrong, it's unfair to point fingers at who caused more deaths without taking the two scenarios into context. Israel didn't have an army marching down their streets. You can't compare the two sides' casualties and treat it like both sides are faced with the same scale.

 

[Eejit]

What a bunch of liberal pansies you all are, trying to hold a nation state's armed forces to a higher standard of behaviour than suicide bombing terrorists! Obviously you must support their jihad.

 

[No Limit]

...

You "conservatives" really take pride in ignorance, don't you?

 

[CptStern]

Stern I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but of course a large-scale military invasion will generate faster-paced civilian deaths than consistent, inaccurate (but still deadly) rockets and mortars being fired into a population zone.

that's not the point:

An Israeli commander in the 22-day Gaza invasion said on Monday Israel's efforts to protect troops from Palestinian fire may have contributed to unwarranted killing of civilians.

we're comparing terror with terror

Let's pretend that it were a full-scale Palestinian/Arab military invasion into Israel. My hypothesis is that if one were able to compare the numbers of casualties under the Israeli offensive versus casualties under a hypothetical Hamas military offensive, those amount of civilian casualties would be balanced at the very least.

this doesnt help. it doesnt validate or invalidate anything. speculating what might have happened in other circumstances is besides the point and would in all likelihood support my point not yours. if the kill ratio between israel and palestinians is 300 to 1 there's little doubt that ratio would change all that drastically. It could escale it could decrease but no one would claim the tables were in danger of being overturned

Albeit whether you're right or wrong, it's unfair to point fingers at who caused more deaths without taking the two scenarios into context. Israel didn't have an army marching down their streets. You can't compare the two sides' casualties and treat it like both sides are faced with the same scale.

you're doing the same thing by comparing this situation to something that couldnt be possible in this context, in this point in time; formerly occupied gaza is still under the thumb of it's occupier cut off from the outside world. it's not a nation squaring off with it's rival on the same level playing field

 

[Kadayi]

I'm amazed by the frankly infantile 'eye for an eye' attitude of some of the posters here.

X killing Y doesn't mean Z is justified in killing A - F because he thinks X is hiding amongst them. Only a person of little consequence thinks in this manner.

If after the recent shootings in Northern Ireland the British Army had carried out a full scale offensive against the Republic and lit up every border town in retaliation. I doubt very much whether people would be arguing it was justified.

 

[delusional]

The people who say morals don't apply in war seriously piss me off.

 

[V-Man339]

I'm not sure which is more confusing/everchanging in dynamics; the Middle East, or this thread about it...

 

[Maturin]

The people who say morals don't apply in war seriously piss me off.

But I think it's worse to say that war can be moral.