US Government Denies Animal Cruelty -- US Marines Video Document It and Laugh

[K e r b e r o s]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54e_1182844511

In light of the Blackwater shootings there's also something thats not getting the media spotlight -- animal cruelty.

Before we argue the semantics of whats more important, I'd like to state that I view both in the same lime light -- soldiers that are taught to be machines, excused of they're conduct concerning they're occupation (unexcusable in my opinion), and who are frusterated with they're own repressed thoughts and emotions reguarding a very mislead war, choose to vent they're psychological frusterations out on the things that are most vunerable and more likely to be hurt by they're power.

Civilians and Animals.

This might sound a bit odd coming from me, but I've had a change of heart in recent months and feel that this topic should at least be brought up if not discussed into oblivion. Consider that I've been known around here to defend US military personel against forum regulars charging them with excessive force and brutality, like say for instance, a certain discussion we had awhile ago concerning the attrocities at Haditha. But I forgot again, one crucial part to explaining that whole event, and its this:

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder -- its not just war that causes this in soldiers and civilians -- some people can even get it before being shipped to boot, or while they're even at boot, or from even watching or listening to stressful things. This appears to be in a very real affect on these men especially when you consider that they're own response to something elses suffering, is well, laughter.

My Personal Aside:
It's impossible sometimes to mandate an agenda that concerns the saftey of animals when it's compared to more demanding objectives concerning the military elite, such as securing a town or keeping the peace. But, I think the problem with our military strategists is'int that they commit to these objectives or complacently ignore others, its just simply that they're no longer willing to be gentlemen or rational thinkers.

This video is'int affecting our image in the eyes of the insurgents -- who for whatever they're reasons (list them at due), already hate us. But, this is affecting the war at home where support for the war is declining rapidly. If the reasons don't start at human rights accusations of 500,000 plus dead, then they'll middle out at Black Water, then end at this. So why the dog?

I call bullshit on this one. All war is guile. We should be wise -- something I think our current advantages have blinded us from understanding. The reasoning here is that a dog is no comparitive threat to a fully armed squad of marines -- but that some fully armed marines could kill at will, a civilians pet, and that a conspiracy of silence would fall curtains around they're pathological errors.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

meh, it's war. War = death and problems. When you think of a way to make war moral and clean, come back.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I'm a little dissapointed that the only greeting I've gotten so far is this here, above mine.

Can you, explain you're position a little bit better? I guess I'm not understanding where you're coming from.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

Just about every other person is a sick ****. Sadly, this applies to those generally upstanding Marines as well.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

What, so are you saying we should ignore because, "we're all sick, its common, no attention needed here?"

Explain this a little bit to me here because I'm not quite getting it -- are you saying, it's excusable? I know you've said it was sad and all but I have trouble believing your sincerity when you attempt to mitigate this issue of animal cruelty, as more, a comparison?

 

[golden_fang]

makes me mad and very sad to see stuff like this.

 

[Ennui]

To be frank I'm a lot more worried about them killing humans not dogs.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

To be frank I'm a lot more worried about them killing humans not dogs.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Animal-Cruelty:--The-Key-to-Serial-Minds&id=35856

The element of fantasy in a serial killer's development is extremely important. They often begin fantasizing about murder during or even before adolescence. Their fantasy lives are very rich and they daydream compulsively about domination, submission, and murder, usually with very specific elements to the fantasy that will eventually be apparent in their real crimes. Others enjoy reading stories or seeing photographs in magazines featuring rape, torture, and murder. In some cases, however, these traits are not present.

Some serial killers display one or more of what are known as the "MacDonald triad" of warning signs in childhood. These are:

Fire starting, or arson invariably for the thrill of destroying things, for gaining attention, or for making the perpetrator feel more powerful.

*Cruelty to animals (related to "zoosadism"). Many children may be cruel to animals, such as pulling the legs off spiders, but future serial killers often kill larger animals, like dogs and cats, and frequently for their solitary enjoyment rather than to impress peers.

*Bed wetting beyond the age when children normally grow out of such behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killers

Cruelty to animals is considered a warning sign to an individuals declining rational psychological functions and they're growing infatuation with violence that could potentially lead them to even worse distresses: more directly stated, its a warning sign of serial killers, where most if not all, choose to abuse or kill animals at a certain point in they're lives as a response to emotionally or psychologically upsetting situations.

These marines are responding to the stress of war by killing a civilians pet -- comparitively, we can say that these marines might later go on to killing civilians as a result (empowered of course by they're prior actions going unnoticed or unpunished). If you're going to neglect the importance of these warning signs Ennui, then you may aswell choose to not be suprised when civilians are actually killed for no explicit reason.

These are things we should take careful consideration of.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

What, so are you saying we should ignore because this, "we're all sick, its common, no attention needed here?"

Explain this a little bit to me here because I'm not getting it -- are you saying, it's excusable? I know you've said it was sad and all but I have trouble believing your sincerity when you attempt to migtate this issue of animal cruelty, as more, a comparison?

No. I never said that. They should be reprimended.

 

[LandStander]

There are rabid dogs all over Iraq that feed on the human remains that lie in the streets. They have squads go out for the specific purpose of killing them. It's pest control.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

There are rabid dogs all over Iraq that feed on the human remains that lie in the streets. They have squads go out for the specific purpose of killing them. It's pest control.

It's also propaganda.

Just like the propaganda we heard concerning Haditha about Marines coming under fire as an explanation for they're house to house attrocities, but they never did. And of the recent Black Water killings where a boy and his mother where amungst 19 others who were shot to death by the contractor firm; details are no shots we're fired at the Black Water personel either.

Whenever they'res a, "bad no-no" that we commit the media and the military band together to always cover it up or develope a series of excuses to make a clear understanding of the facts difficult or delayed.

Coincidence or convenience, I might ask?

We're a professional military commiting attrocities of war.
This is becoming a unique pattern here with our oversea's personel and it appears to be JUST us. Comparitively, how come the British haven't done this yet? Well for one they do not employ the use of contractors as much as we do, if any for that matter. Why? Because they're a more professional military then ours is currently, thats why. How come they're not euthanizing, 'rabid dogs', a blatant cover up by the military to exempt themselves of answering to the demands of responsibility concerning this incident and they others like it?

Because they don't need to or its of very little threat. Or, it's because of they're occupation demanding more professionalism then the American military which is backdoor hiring people with criminal backgrounds to serve.

Don't you find it a little bit disturbing that other soldiers in the video wanted to shoot the dog too? Or that they were laughing about it? Or were commenting on how awesome it was?

"Rabid Dog Control" -- an excuse that just doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[LandStander]

Actually if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the marines charged in Haditha were absolved of any wrong doing. And if you had talked to anyone who has been to Iraq you would know that civilians and military personnel or constantly being attacked by said dogs. Please do some research before you talk about atrocities. Sawing people's heads off. That's an atrocity.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Why there was support for a war in Iraq in the first place will be forever questioned by historians. Good marketing from Bush and his evil cronies i suppose.

This is just another addition to the list of disgraceful acts perpertrated by American soldiers on foreign soil. The amount of videos i've seen of American soldiers disgracing themselves and their country in Iraq is pretty astounding.

The undeducted idiots of the U.S are being recruited to spread their moral idiocy around the world. These are your standard society dropkicks. Dumbass alcoholics who, if not recruited, would live out perfectly banal lives working in 7-11s or blockbusters getting plastered on the weekends and perhaps involving themselves in petty crime. Take these kind of guys overseas into a war and it's a recipe for disaster.
/frustrated

 

[golden_fang]

Why there was support for a war in Iraq in the first place will be forever questioned by historians. Good marketing from Bush and his evil cronies i suppose.

This is just another addition to the list of disgraceful acts perpertrated by American soldiers on foreign soil. The amount of videos i've seen of American soldiers disgracing themselves and their country in Iraq is pretty astounding.

The undeducted idiots of the U.S are being recruited to spread their moral idiocy around the world. These are your standard society dropkicks. Dumbass alcoholics who, if not recruited, would live out perfectly banal lives working in 7-11s or blockbusters getting plastered on the weekends and perhaps involving themselves in petty crime. Take these kind of guys overseas into a war and it's a recipe for disaster.
/frustrated

racist

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Actually if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the marines charged in Haditha were absolved of any wrong doing.

Despite otherwise -- we were already aware of the government not wanting to accept responsibility for this, because it might and has already affected Washingtons military credential.

And if you had talked to anyone who has been to Iraq you would know that civilians and military personnel or constantly being attacked by said dogs.

Uh-huh. Thats why in this video they had to go out of they're way to shoot the dog in its own peace.

Please do some research before you talk about atrocities. Sawing people's heads off. That's an atrocity.

Of course -- but so is shooting a civilians pet, or even shooting the civilians who own it for that matter. It's benign to work out comparisons, so please, stop with it because the use of it for an excuse falls shorter everytime I hit that play button. (twice now, I might add.)

Although, if you're comparing things, maybe it would be permissable to add that we're supposed to be the "good guys". We're supposed to better then that or this -- and out of all our technological superiority, some voyeuristic boredom sets in, and some Marines get the vindictive idea to go out and kill something other then a legitimate threat, why? Because they're frusterated.

Shooting dogs doesn't quantify vengeance for a beheading.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

The undeducted idiots of the U.S are being recruited to spread their moral idiocy around the world. These are your standard society dropkicks. Dumbass alcoholics who, if not recruited, would live out perfectly banal lives working in 7-11s or blockbusters getting plastered on the weekends and perhaps involving themselves in petty crime. Take these kind of guys overseas into a war and it's a recipe for disaster.

That is exactly my point -- our entire military culture needs a complete reform, if that, our new commanders need to be exchanged for less desk jockies and more professional, on the ground, seen combat soldiers because they at least, could get it right.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

That is exactly my point -- our entire military culture needs a complete reform, if that, our new commanders need to be exchanged for less desk jockies and more professional, on the ground, seen combat soldiers because they at least, could get it right.

So I take it you've been in the US military? When did you serve?

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

racist

Learn what words mean before you start calling other people them. He never brought up race. He was bieng anti-american, but he didn't say something like "black americans are all evil" or something.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well, they shot a wild dog. Was killing mammoths any different in Cave man days?(except that we needed the food, yea I know) It's pest control probably anyways. Their like kids with toys though. When I was a kid I had a rubber band gun and shot it at spiders. Sliced them straight in half. As long as it's not humans they enjoy killing, don't worry. Although, I'd probably sing and dance after killing a few terrorists. War is war, and that's part of it's filth. On that note, my grandfather served in WW2, and nothing made him happier then to shoot Germans in the African campaign. And he, like all soldiers. got depressed after wards. It's war fatigue. Have you seen they things Patton or Pershing did? This is just modern versions of it, and it's just the way war is.

 

[repiV]

Learn what words mean before you start calling other people them. He never brought up race. He was bieng anti-american, but he didn't say something like "black americans are all evil" or something.

To be fair though, semantics aside, why is being indiscriminately anti-American (in the sense of saying for example that they're all stupid, not making legitimate criticisms) any less racist than being indiscriminately anti-black people?
Americans could be considered a race in the modern world - a race created from immigrants the world over.

On topic, the US military is designed to annihilate the enemy as ruthlessly as possible. That is how it is constructed and organised and that is how their personnel are trained.
Yet in Iraq they are being employed as a police and security force. Is it any wonder that bad shit happens? War destroys the sanity of even the toughest men, you can't necessarily blame the soldiers themselves for their actions if they're mentally ill.
One of the nicest people I've ever known told me he has on occassion killed people purely to make himself feel better when he was in US special forces some 20 years ago. He's unable to live a normal life due to his mental illness as a result of his experiences in the military.

The US Marines especially have only one purpose - assault and destroy. They recruit scary people and make them even more scary. That's all they should be used for.

The British army is trained to be used as a police and security force, and that's why we're a little more successful at it. You wouldn't send a SWAT team to fight a war, would you?

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

common sense at it's greatest /\

 

[<RJMC>]

people dont care about animals

 

[K e r b e r o s]

people dont care about animals

Unfortunately they don't care enough about themselves either.

Well, they shot a wild dog.

No, they shot a civilians pet. It wasn't wild or rabid -- just in its own peace.

Yet in Iraq they are being employed as a police and security force. Is it any wonder that bad shit happens? War destroys the sanity of even the toughest men, you can't necessarily blame the soldiers themselves for their actions if they're mentally ill.

So, you're saying the soldiers at Haditha and the employees with Black Water over they're recent massacres are excusable due to a claim of insanity?

Their like kids with toys though. When I was a kid I had a rubber band gun and shot it at spiders. Sliced them straight in half. As long as it's not humans they enjoy killing, don't worry.

Uhm, this is not an exactly counsoling point of view after you just got done describing the killing of insects no less, and how you probably derived pleasure from it. Please, don't waste your breath.

It's war fatigue. Have you seen they things Patton or Pershing did? This is just modern versions of it, and it's just the way war is.

you can't necessarily blame the soldiers themselves for their actions if they're mentally ill.
One of the nicest people I've ever known told me he has on occassion killed people purely to make himself feel better when he was in US special forces some 20 years ago. He's unable to live a normal life due to his mental illness as a result of his experiences in the military.

So, are the massacre's in vietnam excusable because our militarys soldiers are a little bit broken? Why not fix what should be repaired? Should we just ignore this problem because, "Oh, its war?" Don't you think that sweeping such troubles under the rug is what directly caused 9.11 and what will continue to cause problems in the future?

As far as our military men and women are concerned I don't want to send a criminal to the battlefield.

Our own attrocities are fueling the enemy on -- are brutality is crushing support for this war on the home front -- innocent people are dying that shouldn't have too. And these lives just aren't as important to you as your own soldiers? Excuse me, but even my Nationalism has limits. These are just several major detriments and setbacks to our military objectives inside Iraq and despite all of this patriotic pride, what I'm getting from most of you is little to nothing related to the facts, explaining your excuses, and apathy.

Waving this aside just doesn't suffice and I know why you do it because it makes our military personel look bad. So, risk it and bring the sick ones home before they cause more trouble and punish the ones who did wrong, because they know what they were doing was wrong. It's just the military has a habit of covering for they're mistakes -- this can longer be and population is largely demanding the same.

 

[repiV]

So, you're saying the soldiers at Haditha and the employees with Black Water over they're recent massacres are excusable due to a claim of insanity?

That's not what I said. I'm just bringing some common sense to the table as I'm sick of all the hysterical, uninformed bullshit that people spout about the military here when they have no clue what the hell they're talking about.
The scale of war crimes committed in the Iraq war by Allied forces has been positively miniscule - atrocities have always been committed in war, but only in the last 20 years or so have wars been given constant media coverage.
You just didn't hear about it so much before.

Incidentally, what do you think would happen to your mental health if you spent 20 hours a day for months on end in the searing desert heat/freezing night-time cold, exhausted and dehydrated on constant alert for the bomb that might explode, the bullet that might come your way, the terrorist that might pop his head round the corner and take you out?
My bet is that you would go insane. That so few atrocities are committed by our forces is surely a miracle, and a comment on the professionalism of our military.

So, are the massacre's in vietnam excusable because our militarys soldiers are a little bit broken? Why not fix what should be repaired? Should we just ignore this problem because, "Oh, because its war?" Don't you think that sweeping such troubles under the rug is what directly caused 9.11 and what will continue to cause problems in the future?

Erm, the only thing that directly caused 9/11 is Islamic extremism. Blaming everything that happens in the world on us is childlike and tiresome in the extreme.
Now, how do you propose to change the simple fact that killing people on a battlefield goes against basic human instincts and thus causes deep-seated psychological problems in almost everyone who takes part in war?
Prior to Vietnam, less than 20% of soldiers actually fired their weapons in battle. So they adopted techniques that condition soldiers to kill, resulting in for example a 95% kill rate amongst British forces in the Falklands - one of the main reasons we won that war. The price of this is a PTSD epidemic. The only way to avoid the problem is to avoid war. It only gets worse as time goes on because war now is total - there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, everywhere is part of the battleground. The scale of the carnage is horrendously huge. In the past, you could leave the battlefield, go to the rear lines or rest in the safety of your camp. Not anymore.
Moreover, the US military operates on the doctrine of overwhelming force - utterly destroy the enemy as quickly as possible. In a traditional war situation, it's very successful - nothing can stand up to the sheer might of it. Such tactics don't work in Iraq, however, and the soldiers who have been trained only to kill, kill, kill, cannot adapt so easily.

As far as our military men and women are concerned I don't want to send a criminal to the battlefield.

Our own attrocities are fueling the enemy on -- are brutality is crushing support for this war on the home front -- innocent people are dying that shouldn't have too. And these lives just aren't as important to you as your own soldiers? Excuse me, but even my Nationalism has limits. These are just several major detriments and setbacks to our military objectives inside Iraq and despite all of this patriotic pride, what I'm getting from most of you is little to nothing related to the facts, explaining your excuses, and apathy.

That's such bullshit. Our "atrocities" are very few and far between. The vast majority of the civilian casualties that were inflicted by our own forces are an unfortunate but inevitable part of modern war, and are not atrocities. Yet most of the innocents being killed in Iraq are being killed by other Iraqis.
If I remember correctly, over 25 million civilians were killed in World War II - certainly there were more civilians killed than military personnel. And they were intentionally targeted, too. Get some ****ing perspective on the matter - your idea of an atrocity is irrelevant because you don't understand the wider context. War is cruel, vicious and horrific - most people are just too sheltered to grasp that concept these days, even less so that Iraq is actually quite a tame war in the grand scheme of things.
And by the way, I've always opposed the Iraq war. It's a load of bollocks.

Waving this aside just doesn't suffice and I know why you do it because it makes our military personel look bad. So, risk it and bring the sick ones home before they cause more trouble and punish the ones who did wrong, because they know what they were doing was wrong. It's just the military has a habit of covering for they're mistakes -- this can longer be and population is largely demanding the same.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[jimbo118]

****ing idiot marines.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

I love how some people are trying to make an excuse for a clean war or blame it's filth on someone else, like jimbo118 here above. When has there been one? When you fight a war, you have to act as filthy and immoral in order to win. That's why the crusades were lost by the Euros, they tried a clean war, and failed horrible. First law of war is to survive, and that means often men will go crazy in order to prevent fatigue. You are NEVER, let me repeat it, NEVER, Going to find a clean war. If they seem clean, it's only because the dirt never got out of the closet.

People with Guns/swords/freaking lazer beams on their heads, are never going to act good in war.

Example: I play paintball, alot. And one thing I love to do is sneak behind enemy lines, and shoot the enemy at pointblank range. There are even some games which let you take prisoners for points. Do I? NO, I gun them down with so many paint balls that their legs are soar. In war, weather it be points in a fake one or national credibility in a real one, no one ever fights clean. You die if you fight clean.

 

[Solaris]

I think I agree with Repriv on this one.

 

[jimbo118]

I love how some people are trying to make an excuse for a clean war or blame it's filth on someone else, like jimbo118 here above.

yes, thats exactly what i did good one.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

The scale of war crimes committed in the Iraq war by Allied forces has been positively miniscule - atrocities have always been committed in war, but only in the last 20 years or so have wars been given constant media coverage.
You just didn't hear about it so much before.

So, are you saying our awareness is a good or bad thing? When we're aware of a problem, shouldn't we be entitled to fix it? Delays are only allowing worse things to happen.

Incidentally, what do you think would happen to your mental health if you spent 20 hours a day for months on end in the searing desert heat/freezing night-time cold, exhausted and dehydrated on constant alert for the bomb that might explode, the bullet that might come your way, the terrorist that might pop his head round the corner and take you out?

I'd probably try to keep a level head during all of this, which is what these people in the video should be doing. Infact, if they did that, this animal wouldn't have been shot, and Haditha and "Black Water" would be nightmares we had in our sleep, not nightmares we had to experience in real life.

That so few atrocities are committed by our forces is surely a miracle, and a comment on the professionalism of our military.

Surely a miracle? Apparently the professionalism of our military doesn't impact you as much you'd like us to believe it does.

Is it a miracle holding them back? That sleight of hand is something I don't want to play with. I want to know that they won't do it, and that when they do, they'll be punished far more severely then a simple court martial or five years in military prison.

Prior to Vietnam, less than 20% of soldiers actually fired their weapons in battle. So they adopted techniques that condition soldiers to kill, resulting in for example a 95% kill rate amongst British forces in the Falklands - one of the main reasons we won that war. The price of this is a PTSD epidemic. The only way to avoid the problem is to avoid war. It only gets worse as time goes on because war now is total - there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, everywhere is part of the battleground. The scale of the carnage is horrendously huge. In the past, you could leave the battlefield, go to the rear lines or rest in the safety of your camp. Not anymore.
Moreover, the US military operates on the doctrine of overwhelming force - utterly destroy the enemy as quickly as possible. In a traditional war situation, it's very successful - nothing can stand up to the sheer might of it. Such tactics don't work in Iraq, however, and the soldiers who have been trained only to kill, kill, kill, cannot adapt so easily.

Yes, but these attrocities are incidentally caused by this. Shouldn't we question they're effectiveness when civilians and animals become the target of sadistic crimes?

I think we should -- I also think we should pull the sick ones out, research the problem, and find a way to fix it before it fixes us. They're training is of no excuse -- they're human and should be respected as such. If there's a problem, work with it, before another Haditha.

Our "atrocities" are very few and far between.

500,000 plus accused dead? Ooops does not quantify that.

Also, calling it an inevitability is like saying, "shit happens". But through the excuse we can see clearly where marines have gone out of there way to voluntarily kill civilians and animals just for the value of entertainment. You don't find that morally repugnant of our own armed forces? Is'int that a little disturbing? What should we do about it?

I think I agree with Repriv on this one.

So, Haditha is excusable -- the Black Water killings are excusable -- Central or Southern America? Excusable?

I opt you to explain your position.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Black water isn't US army, it's a Mercenary company.

Haditha is the biggest bunch of bull there is. Half the Marines charged weren't even in the village they were said to be in.

And as for Vietnam, half of those guys were insane to be alive. I would be dead within a week.

Sure, charge them, but then you'd also have to charge the dozens of other incidents that happen in every war. Usually the right people are charged, but these days they're on a wild goose hunt.

 

[repiV]

So, are you saying our awareness is a good or bad thing? When we're aware of a problem, shouldn't we be entitled to fix it? Delays are only allowing worse things to happen.

The problem is that war drives people insane. The only way to avoid that is to avoid war.
I'm not sure why you can't put two and two together and realise that ordinary people often still in their teenage years being put in the position of shooting, stabbing, kicking and punching complete strangers to death and having the same things happen to your closest friends is enough to **** anyone up. And that's daily life for a soldier at war. After your "victory", you can walk away from the bleeding, rotting, fly-infested bodies and their putrid stench of death and wish you'd told your best buddy how much he meant to you.

I'd probably try to keep a level head during all of this, which is what these people in the video should be doing. Infact, if they did that, this animal wouldn't have been shot, and Haditha and "Black Water" would be nightmares we had in our sleep, not nightmares we had to experience in real life.

You'd "try to keep a level head during all of this". Wow, you're my hero.
Completely empty words as you don't have the depth of experience to even begin to understand what they go through, or that PTSD is a serious psychological disorder that destroys marriages, friendships and lives. Three times as many Vietnam veterans committed suicide after the war as died during it.
I experienced a very, very mild form of psychological trauma after my motorcycle accident a month ago. I kept seeing it happen, over and over and over again, whatever else I was thinking about just disappeared and was replaced with me being catapulted through the air and lying on the ground screaming. And when I came home from the hospital, it was quite difficult to adjust because I'd just been through such a life-changing experience and to everyone else it was just life as normal. Nothing had changed since I'd been gone, and noone acted any differently. Ramp that up by a factor of a thousand and that's the kind of trauma a soldier experiences and the kind of alienation and isolation they feel when they come home from war.

Surely a miracle? Apparently the professionalism of our military doesn't impact you as much you'd like us to believe it does.

Huh?

Is it a miracle holding them back? That sleight of hand is something I don't want to play with. I want to know that they won't do it, and that when they do, they'll be punished far more severely then a simple court martial or five years in military prison.

Even if they were clinically insane at the time?

Yes, but these attrocities are incidentally caused by this. Shouldn't we question they're effectiveness when civilians and animals become the target of sadistic crimes?

No?
The military is an enormous machine designed for mass killing. The mission of a soldier is to close with and kill the enemy. The rest of the army just helps the soldier to accomplish that aim.
The question is whether the military is being deployed in an appropriate fashion, or whether the function and set-up of the military should be fundamentally reconsidered.

I think we should -- I also think we should pull the sick ones out, research the problem, and find a way to fix it before it fixes us. They're training is of no excuse -- they're human and should be respected as such. If there's a problem, work with it, before another Haditha.

The forces are massively overstretched in Iraq, that's no secret. It's also not the fault of the man on the ground that he has to go back for a fourth tour in the desert in a row.

500,000 plus accused dead? Ooops does not quantify that.

You can't quantify an atrocity. 500,000 dead does not equal an atrocity - as I already pointed out, the vast majority of the civilian deaths were caused by other Iraqis, not by us. And of the civilian casualties we caused, maybe a handful of them were intentional at the hand of individual soldiers, and none of them were intentional at the hand of the organisation.
This war has been going on for longer than World War II - 500,000 dead is NOTHING. The Korean War lasted for three years, and resulted in one and a half million dead soldiers and many millions more dead civilians.

Also, calling it an inevitability is like saying, "shit happens". But through the excuse we can see clearly where marines have gone out of there way to voluntarily kill civilians and animals just for the value of entertainment. You don't find that morally repugnant of our own armed forces? Is'int that a little disturbing? What should we do about it?

It is an inevitably. The scale of the destruction available to modern armed forces, the importance of civilian infrastructure in military capability and the use of urban areas as battlefields ensures that.
I refuse to rise to your bait because you're focusing on one tiny issue which you don't understand and making a hysterical noise about it.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

If people are trying to blame the army for civilians getting killed in combat situations, then why don't the people leave. Not sure about you, but if I saw a column of Abrams heading my way, I'd leave. Their homes are mud shacks anyway. They can get repaired in a day.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

The problem is that war drives people insane. The only way to avoid that is to avoid war.

No, I know some very sane people who are actually over in Afghanistan -- the only way to avoid insanity is to properly train soldiers to identify emotional or psychological problems early, have them addressed, repaired, and sent back out again.

Something we don't practise as often as I'd like to.

You'd "try to keep a level head during all of this". Wow, you're my hero.
Completely empty words as you don't have the depth of experience to even begin to understand what they go through, or that PTSD is a serious psychological disorder that destroys marriages, friendships and lives. Three times as many Vietnam veterans committed suicide after the war as died during it.

Don't you think we could've prevented that? PTSD can be handled but can't always be fixed -- yet what we choose to do with the disorder can inadvertently be the difference between a soldier who commits suicide or who goes on a pathological rampage.

Insanity doesn't keep people alive -- the soldiers that loose they're heads in the middle of a firefight, usually panic and then get cut down because they're not focused or sane. I disagree with your assesment concerning a soldier needing to be insane.

I kept seeing it happen, over and over and over again, whatever else I was thinking about just disappeared and was replaced with me being catapulted through the air and lying on the ground screaming. And when I came home from the hospital, it was quite difficult to adjust because I'd just been through such a life-changing experience and to everyone else it was just life as normal. Nothing had changed since I'd been gone, and noone acted any differently. Ramp that up by a factor of a thousand and that's the kind of trauma a soldier experiences and the kind of alienation and isolation they feel when they come home from war.

But if those soldiers can be worked with we could save them -- and a lot of other lives aswell. PSTD is no excuse -- the government can't ignore it anymore. It needs to be delt with.

Huh?

You referenced that only a miracle was holding them back -- I believe they're should be something more, such as the value of an innocent lives, much rather then a difference between how emotionally repressed the soldier is or is not that day.

The question is whether the military is being deployed in an appropriate fashion, or whether the function and set-up of the military should be fundamentally reconsidered.

It certainly should and I believe this thread touches on that a little bit.

You can't quantify an atrocity. 500,000 dead does not equal an atrocity - as I already pointed out, the vast majority of the civilian deaths were caused by other Iraqis, not by us.

Proof?

This war has been going on for longer than World War II - 500,000 dead is NOTHING. The Korean War lasted for three years, and resulted in one and a half million dead soldiers and many millions more dead civilians.

Yes, and we can thank technology for those developements -- but its not technology thats the problem, it's the soldiers not allowed psychological treatment or enough respect by our own government. This animal video taped for killing, wouldn't have died, if these people had seen or talked to someone about they're problems.

Unfortunately, they did not and the results speak for themselves.

I refuse to rise to your bait because you're focusing on one tiny issue which you don't understand and making a hysterical noise about it.

I beg your pardon but this is not one tiny issue:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a5ee2d6eb

Under what circumstances is that a justifiable action?

Looks more to me like they're killing an animal just because they can -- support for the war is dropping, and you don't think this might be amung one of the many reasons?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elw298vElL4

Or is this justifiable? You can't weigh this out any more through invalid comparisons. What they're doing is animal cruelty, and they need to be charged with it, not excused because of PSTD.

 

[el Chi]

To be frank I'm a lot more worried about them killing humans not dogs.

Hear hear.

 

[repiV]

No, I know some very sane people who are actually over in Afghanistan

Your point being?
Please show me where I said every soldier is insane.

-- the only way to avoid insanity is to properly train soldiers to identify emotional or psychological problems early, have them addressed, repaired, and sent back out again.

Something we don't practise as often as I'd like to.

They aren't always obvious, and the symptoms sometimes don't occur until years after the event. You can be just fine for a decade and then something will trigger it off.
The nature of war also doesn't make it particularly feasible to bring people home whenever killing and carnage starts affecting them emotionally (you know, all the time for example).

Don't you think we could've prevented that? PTSD can be handled but can't always be fixed -- yet what we choose to do with the disorder can inadvertently be the difference between a soldier who commits suicide or who goes on a pathological rampage.

It would certainly have helped matters if we understood the disorder a bit better back then. You can't prevent it though. It occurs as a result of going through an acutely traumatic experience. Some people can get PTSD after a car crash in which they weren't even injured. Emergency services workers get it due to the nature of their experiences.

Insanity doesn't keep people alive -- the soldiers that loose they're heads in the middle of a firefight, usually panic and then get cut down because they're not focused or sane. I disagree with your assesment concerning a soldier needing to be insane.

The fook? Where did I ever say anything about a soldier needing to be insane?

But if those soldiers can be worked with we could save them -- and a lot of other lives aswell. PSTD is no excuse -- the government can't ignore it anymore. It needs to be delt with.

Obviously it's not that easy.

You referenced that only a miracle was holding them back -- I believe they're should be something more, such as the value of an innocent lives, much rather then a difference between how emotionally repressed the soldier is or is not that day.

I think you're missing the point entirely. Given the nature of the circumstances they have to fight in and the length of time they're exposed to those conditions, there are very few "atrocities" actually being committed. In fact the military ought to be commended for their generally upstanding conduct in the face of great danger, often from the very people they are trying to help.

It certainly should and I believe this thread touches on that a little bit.



Proof?

Why don't you prove that all 500,000 deaths were our fault? You're the one who made such a stupid claim in the first place.

Yes, and we can thank technology for those developements -- but its not technology thats the problem, it's the soldiers not allowed psychological treatment or enough respect by our own government. This animal video taped for killing, wouldn't have died, if these people had seen or talked to someone about they're problems.

Unfortunately, they did not and the results speak for themselves.

The hell has that got to do with the number of deaths in the Korean War?
Technology has very little to do with it, there is far more destructive power available today. The Korean War was just plain far more vicious, and an open war based on power and dominance rather than a series of police actions and small battles.
For a time, the US troops followed a doctrine of "stand or die". Fight to the last man, never retreat, even in the face of certain death. Hopefully a little illustration for you of the brutality of all war and how the Iraq war is really nothing special.
Our method of fighting the Iraq war has actually been extremely restrained, and ultimately a lesson in being cruel to be kind. We never used enough force, we never had enough troops and we never really took the fight to the enemy. Which leaves warring factions and terrorist groups free to suicide bomb civilians and leave traps for our soldiers.
We could have utterly annihilated all resistance in Iraq years ago, if we had brought the full might of the military to bear. Less people would have died in the long run, and the Iraqis would actually have a stable nation-state out of it into the bargain. Unfortunately, we decided to fight half a war. Again, a lesson on the necessity of brutality in war - you either deploy extreme and uncompromising violence, or you waste lives fighting a war where you were never going to accomplish anything anyway.

I beg your pardon but this is not one tiny issue:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a5ee2d6eb

Under what circumstances is that a justifiable action?

Looks more to me like they're killing an animal just because they can -- support for the war is dropping, and you don't think this might be amung one of the many reasons?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elw298vElL4

Or is this justifiable? You can't weigh this out any more through invalid comparisons. What they're doing is animal cruelty, and they need to be charged with it, not excused because of PSTD.

Who gives a **** about the goddamn animals?!
Jesus, of all the issues to be concerned about in the most bizarre and arguably evil business of war, you get obsessed with folks using some dogs as target practice.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Your point being?

That you don't need to be insane just to be a soldier -- as PortalStorm suggested.
As I was addressing both and nethire exclusively.

The nature of war also doesn't make it particularly feasible to bring people home whenever killing and carnage starts affecting them emotionally (you know, all the time for example).

Bring them home wasn't the operational thought at hand -- they need someone to talk to over there once and awhile.
They need more of an outlet besides they're gun and a civilian to shoot at.

Or, in this case, a civilians pet.

You can't prevent it though.

I think we've established that already.

But we can affect the life of someone whose life is being destroyed by it --
and hey, if we start awareness early, the better.

Obviously it's not that easy.

I disagree -- we can do better.

Given the nature of the circumstances they have to fight in and the length of time they're exposed to those conditions, there are very few "atrocities" actually being committed. In fact the military ought to be commended for their generally upstanding conduct in the face of great danger, often from the very people they are trying to help.

But don't we use that sometimes to excuse they're violence?

It's this whole guilt trip thing thats just not very convincing to whole facade -- can we admit that what soldiers did was wrong?

Or do we have to feel guilty for pointing it out?

Why don't you prove that all 500,000 deaths were our fault?

We invaded Iraq -- if it weren't for us 500,000 dead Iraqi's could still be alive right now and probably under more favorable conditions. (Of course, that depends upon who you ask).

So it was our involvement that directly caused those deaths. No involvement -- no mislead war -- no deaths.

The hell has that got to do with the number of deaths in the Korean War?

Was your question about technology or excessive force?

Jesus, of all the issues to be concerned about in the most bizarre and arguably evil business of war, you get obsessed with folks using some dogs as target practice.

I suspected as much; you knew they're ethics where questionable and you knew they were not apart of some nice little imaginary team of soldiers who're assigned to kill dogs with diseases. You also knew that primarly it was wrong.

I also got you to admit, like I suspected as much, that you didn't care if what they did was wrong or right -- however unfortunate the warning signs maybe that these soldiers might later go on to killing civilians. Infact this team of soldiers that somehow wanders around Iraq just to kill animals is at best, imaginary, or an unofficial cover up to illegal military conduct.

The soldiers are also endangering they're lives by discharging a weapon indiscriminately. The evidence is there: the animal was not diseased or a threat to the marines presence. Now to google something:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=US+Kills+Animals+to+prevent+diseases

Nothing. I hope you care to add a source that backs up your statements.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

You people are trying to humanize war. You phail. War cannot be put as a good thing, don't bother. Unless your killing Nazis.

 

[15357]

Or communist invaders.



War is so inherent in human nature that it is in every way human to make what has been long considered the most inhumane: war.

But, you wanna know what's worse than war? Poverty. Try poverty.

 

[Kyorisu]

You people are trying to humanize war. You phail. War cannot be put as a good thing, don't bother. Unless your killing Nazis.

No war is not a good thing but the US should at least be trying to show off their professionalism when it comes to occupying a country. Modern age media has shown again and again that select groups of soldiers/contractors decide to be dip shits just because they can get away with it.

 

[Raziaar]

I can't believe they were laughing giddily at killing that dog. :frown:

Mother****ers are sadistic.