US policy is State Terrorism

[GhostFox]

The US is like the Yankees. Everyone loves to hate them because they are jealous of them.

Now that doesn't mean everyone in the world is jealous of the US. But it is a simple fact that most of the anti-americanism in much of the world spawns from usually subconscious jealousy. Just like people love to hate the Yankees becuase they are jealous of them.

Ever come to Canada? The whole country is defined by how jealous it is of the US at the moment and its feelings of inequality. It is a silly way to feel. But it is the truth.

 

[GhostFox]

Stern, again I am not saying the US never assisted in the demise of a "democratic" govt. All I am saying is that those actions were percieved to be the best course of action at the time, rather then out of malice like people are suggesting.

 

[CptStern]

The US is like the Yankees. Everyone loves to hate them because they are jealous of them.

Now that doesn't mean everyone in the world is jealous of the US. But it is a simple fact that most of the anti-americanism in much of the world spawns from usually subconscious jealousy. Just like people love to hate the Yankees becuase they are jealous of them.

Ever come to Canada? The whole country is defined by how jealous it is of the US at the moment and its feelings of inequality. It is a silly way to feel. But it is the truth.

huh!!??!! are you sure you live in canada? I dont have much time ..but man! canadians are NOT jealous of americans ...maybe a little fearful but not jealous

people are angry with the US because of iraq and decades of questionable foreign policies

 

[CptStern]

Stern, again I am not saying the US never assisted in the demise of a "democratic" govt. All I am saying is that those actions were percieved to be the best course of action at the time, rather then out of malice like people are suggesting.

no I dont agree here, in many cases (haiti, zaire) they replaced the democratically elected government with a murderous tyrant

but I do agree that it's the best course of action in these cases ...but only for the US ..the people of thse countries sure as hell didnt benefit from US intervention

 

[GhostFox]

but I do agree that it's the best course of action in these cases ...but only for the US

Ok, see there is a case you can try and build from. But to establish it you need to:

A: Show the positive benefits these actions had for the US time.
B: Show the negative benefits these actions had for the native people at the time.
C: Show the outcome of these actions today so they can be viewed longterm as +/- for both the people of those countries and the US.
D: Use contextual information to examine the facts that the govt. had at the time in making these decisions, to see if you criticism is based on hindsight.

If someone is willing to do this then we can talk. If people are going to insist on the "US IS EVIL!!!!" line of thought, I think I have sucessfully made my point.

 

[GhostFox]

but man! canadians are NOT jealous of americans ...maybe a little fearful but not jealous

Do you live here? There is no country on the planet more jealous of the US then Canada. We have the worlds largest inferiority complex here. I swear that if Kerry had won, Harper would be the PM right now just so Canada could say "We are different then the US, really we are. Pleeeease let us be different. We have such a massive little-brother complex we can only define our national identity as being different then the US. And it turns out they invented hocky and own Tim Hortons."

 

[CptStern]

Ok, see there is a case you can try and build from. But to establish it you need to:

A: Show the positive benefits these actions had for the US time.
B: Show the negative benefits these actions had for the native people at the time.
C: Show the outcome of these actions today so they can be viewed longterm as +/- for both the people of those countries and the US.
D: Use contextual information to examine the facts that the govt. had at the time in making these decisions, to see if you criticism is based on hindsight.

If someone is willing to do this then we can talk. If people are going to insist on the "US IS EVIL!!!!" line of thought, I think I have sucessfully made my point.

no, no you havent ...look I dont have to give the full burden of proof ..this is not a court, you are not a judge ..just look at the numbers, just read the facts ..there is no question the US had anything but bad intentions when they propped up: Papa doc duvalier, Castelo Branco, General Suharto, Mobutu Sese Seko etc etc ...all brutal dictators that killed collectively over 3 million people

just do a search of any of them ..each made saddam look like friggin mother theresa

 

[Tr0n]

Our goverment did it for two things...

Control and money.

 

[GhostFox]

there is no question the US had anything but bad intentions when they propped up

It there is no question then why can you not prove that?

 

[CptStern]

Do you live here? There is no country on the planet more jealous of the US then Canada. We have the worlds largest inferiority complex here. I swear that if Kerry had won, Harper would be the PM right now just so Canada could say "We are different then the US, really we are. Pleeeease let us be different. We have such a massive little-brother complex we can only define our national identity as being different then the US. And it turns out they invented hocky and own Tim Hortons."

okkkkaaaaayyyy :upstare: maybe things are different in winnipeg but I really dont see that at all ...if anything most canadians have little trust in americans. We see the US as friends and maybe even as the older bully of a brother who we have no choice but to emulate ..after all our biggest trading partners are the US. Just because we watch american idol, just because we let them run us over in softwood lumber, beef ban, fisheries etc does not mean we pander to the US ...if that were true we'd be losing our boys in iraq by now


..oh and Harper is a consevative, religious-right poster boy. If we left it up to him canada would probably have joined the coalition not to mention that we'd probably wouldnt be tabling legislation right now to give all canadians legal rights ..thankfully he didnt take the election

 

[CptStern]

It there is no question then why can you not prove that?

sigh ..look I've avoided enough work for the afternoon ..did you look up those names yet? it's self evident ..I really dont think linking to websites that support my assertion will change your mind, but do come back in 2-3 hours I'll have something for you

 

[Absinthe]

OK...let me try to spell this out slowly for you. Let us say that the US put Saddam in power (obviously ignoring the historical fact that he siezed power in a bloody coup).

...That was wholly supported by the CIA. Iraq was regarded as a tactical piece in the Cold War. When the previous leader was found to be purchasing Soviet weapons. The US was, like with Cuba, willing to aid in the overthrowing of the government so long as the new ruling party was neither a Communist or a sympathizer.
Once Qasim was assassinated, the USA gave lists of supposed Iraqi Communists to the Baath Party. They were then summarily executed.

I am not saying the US has never worked with bad people. But the police often use the thief to catch the murderer. Should they not be allowed to do that? Should the DA not give plea bargains to the guy selling the child pornagraphy to convict the child rapist?

Scum is scum, no matter how you look at it. I can understand the concept of siding with the lesser of two evils, but I also recognize that doing so still results with shit on my hands. It doesn't make me better. It just makes me less bad.
Either way you look at it, the USA has installed murderers and tyrants. They've done their best to sweep atrocities under the rug. They've gone right ahead and pretended that these people were swell guys, and they've also protected them.

The idea of spreading democracy across the globe is a farce. You do not spread democracy by aiding coups in foreign countries and kicking out democratically elected leaders. You do not spread democracy by placing a protective blanket around brutal dictators with very un-democratic methods. Relying on the kind of brute force methods employed by the Warsaw Pact (albeit more covertly) does not yield legitimate results. But then again, this is not the spread of democracy. This is the USA creating and exploiting temporary allies that it will inevitably turn on. All so that America is unchallenged.
I certainly don't see how installing tyrants in foreign countries is at all beneficial for those people.

Oppisition to what?

Used to be the Communists. What do you think it is today?

 

[GhostFox]

OK, let me give you an example.

Castelo Branco was the COS of the Brazillian millitary, correct? President Joao Goulart was about to dismiss congress turn his presidency into a dictatorship. Castelo tells the US embassy that he wants to preserve the Brazillian Democracy. So the US does nothing to stop Castelo when he removes Goulart from power.

So you are condemning the US for two things.

1) Non-action. The US did nothing to overthrow Goulart, they provided no weapons or funding. They just didn't stop him. Do you believe it is the mandate of the US to prevent all internal wars in foriegn nations? (that is the subject for another topic).

2) You are blaming the US for the fact that the Pro-Democracy Castelo who removed a dictator from power, ended up turning into a ruthless dictator himself. Did the govt. have a time machine back then that I don't know about? Because you cannot deny it seemed like a good thing to do at the time, for both Brazil and the US. Do you honestly believe that if the US govt. knew that Castelo would turn into such a brutal dictator they would have even remotely supportive of his actions?

 

[GhostFox]

Scum is scum, no matter how you look at it. I can understand the concept of siding with the lesser of two evils, but I also recognize that doing so still results with shit on my hands. It doesn't make me better. It just makes me less bad.

Ahhh...so doing nothing is the only noble cause in life? Man...I knew the US should have never gotten involved in WW2. Everyone should just always do nothing.

 

[Absinthe]

It's not so much that they had no idea when they first put these people into power.

It's that, despite the atrocious crimes these leaders eventually committed, the US continued to support and/or do business with them.

 

[Absinthe]

Ahhh...so doing nothing is the only noble cause in life? Man...I knew the US should have never gotten involved in WW2. Everyone should just always do nothing.

Ha! We got involved in WW2 because we perceived Hitler to be a threat to the United States if he conquered Europe. And there was also an oh-so-tiny event involving Pearl Harbor.

Don't kid me. Nobility was not the thrust of US involvement during that conflict.

Doing nothing may not be worthy of applause, but it can certainly beat the shit out of making huge messes that serve only as a means to an end.

In any case, I'm done for tonight. I'll discuss this with you lads again if the discussion isn't closed or off-track by tomorrow.

 

[CptStern]

Do you honestly believe that if the US govt. knew that Castelo would turn into such a brutal dictator they would have even remotely supportive of his actions?

yes:

The American ambassador, Lincoln Gordon, informed the State Department that ' a desperate lunge [by Goulart] for totalitarian power might be made at any time."

 

[GhostFox]

The American ambassador, Lincoln Gordon, informed the State Department that ' a desperate lunge [by Goulart] for totalitarian power might be made at any time."

I am confused by your point. Goulart was the president who was about to become dictator. How does this prove that the US knew Costelo was going to become a brutal dictator?

 

[burner69]

The US is like the Yankees. Everyone loves to hate them because they are jealous of them.

Now that doesn't mean everyone in the world is jealous of the US. But it is a simple fact that most of the anti-americanism in much of the world spawns from usually subconscious jealousy. Just like people love to hate the Yankees becuase they are jealous of them.

Ever come to Canada? The whole country is defined by how jealous it is of the US at the moment and its feelings of inequality. It is a silly way to feel. But it is the truth.

Wtf!?!?

Do you have any idea of how much people hate the US? DO you understand why? I won't bother listing them here, but there are plenty.

Perhaps people hate the US, not because they are jealous, but because... they do f**ked up things, have guns, execute people, sell lots of weapons to dodgy countries, invade countries on false premises... sorry, starting a list there.

I bet when Osama was planning his attack on 9/11, he was full of jealousy. All those maccy d's, all those guns, all those lovely big cars.

STOP TERRORISM: STOP BEING SO DAMN COOOOOL USA!

 

[KoreBolteR]

Wtf!?!?

Do you have any idea of how much people hate the US? DO you understand why? I won't bother listing them here, but there are plenty.

Perhaps people hate the US, not because they are jealous, but because... they do f**ked up things, have guns, execute people, sell lots of weapons to dodgy countries, invade countries on false premises... sorry, starting a list there.

I bet when Osama was planning his attack on 9/11, he was full of jealousy. All those maccy d's, all those guns, all those lovely big cars.

STOP TERRORISM: STOP BEING SO DAMN COOOOOL USA!

yes osama and co, are jealous of america, thats why they attacked, and thats why the terorists in Iraq still attack to this day. sigh... :bonce:

 

[Mechagodzilla]

yes osama and co, are jealous of america, thats why they attacked, and thats why the terorists in Iraq still attack to this day. sigh... :bonce:

I hope that's a joke, because that's pretty much the opposite of the reality of the situation.

Al Qaeda's motivation is almost entirely a religious extremist form of revenge. They consider the U.S. to be the most prominent in a long list of societies that they consider dangerous "infidels."
Bin Laden's extremist belief is that muslims and non-muslims can never co-exist peacefully and that one side will eventually wipe out the other. Therefore, Bin laden's goal is to destroy western society before it destroys his.
Even non-extremist muslims are considered targets, as they are seen as working for the west. It's a "with us or against us" mentality taken to extremes.
Backing up this belief is his resurection of long-dead xenophobic islamic teachings, and a laundry list of prior offences committed by western nations against the middle-east (both perceived and real.)

By terrorists in Iraq, I suppose you mean those of the insurgency. They are similarilly motivated. Just as Bin laden sees the US as a state out destroy the middle east, so do the insurgency.
Only they are living in a literal situation where America is destroying part of the middle east. These people see the US's invasion not as a liberation, but as a takeover, one that will most likely be permanent.
They see this freedom as corrupted by an american grab at oil and sway over the politics of Iraq.
And as such they are fighting because they do not wish to be the US's subjects.

So to say that terrorists are 'jealous of our freedom' is a dangerously flawed view. 'Know your enemy' is a philosophy to live by.
I'm always surpirised at how many people don't even know what Al-Qaeda is, other than 'evil' and 'not free'.