USA Conscription

[Maskirovka]

yes but if I'm forced to go to schoool, the chances are I'm not going to get my gonads blown off by some guy with a beef against my country

besides I disagree with the military as a whole...so it would be a death sentence for me

what part of "this bill will not force you to join the military" do you not understand???

 

[Fat Tony!]

I wouldn't call it a decent job . Its a crap job, but its worthwhile so not bad, if i didnt have a job at the time I'd do it.but if i did and it was "the" job i wanted i would tell them to f*** off

 

[Pogrom]

To repeat for you Pogrom; also are you kidding me? By bringing it to public schools would keep it quiet? HAHA It would only attract the media like a shark to blood. Show me a site for that 71% number

I'm still looking for that statistics site, but here's something to tide you over until I find it.

Notice one of the last questions -
Q: What do you expect to happen with large numbers of soldiers coming back from Iraq?
A: Mass exit from the military. Mass!

And as for bringing it to public schools: Come on! How many things does the government do that does not make the national news?

Funding for the Military recruitment office (or whatever that thing's called) is being increased much faster than in other departments.

 

[Maskirovka]

I wouldn't call it a decent job . Its a crap job, but its worthwhile so not bad, if i didnt have a job at the time I'd do it.but if i did and it was "the" job i wanted i would tell them to f*** off

what job are you referring to? you have no idea what you would be doing...i was just guessing that it would be a decent job...whatever you end up doing it'll be better than bagging groceries at the supermarket or something like that...and you're not going to be making tons of money either...but neither do the troops

 

[Anthraxxx]

Anthraxxx, from your previous posts id say your quite sensible however that post was distasteful and pathetic think about what you say before you say it. This thread will soon be closed

Gar! I was just pissed at the time and needed to rant. Sry if I was rude.

 

[Fat Tony!]

^ Thought so , Its not like you.

 

[OoGoff]

Lolz, Guess its the army life for me! I might see that one guy who left. ummmm GhostValkery!

 

[Fat Tony!]

He joined the navy .....i think

 

[Cybernoid]

I'm all for it! I'm not going to join the military because I have other plans, but if they drafted me, I wouldn't complain. If my country needs me to perform a service in the name of preserving freedom, then give me a gun and an enemy to shoot at because it would be an honor to serve my country.[rant] All of those dick sucking Peace *of shit* activists can go have a horse blow a load on their grandmother's face! Where in the seven hells do they think that they should have the freedom to not answer their country's call of duty? In the words of the Tom Clancy commercials, "Freedom isn't free" Those of you who don't have the brass to serve the country that you freely live in and take for granted, please tell me. I'll buy you your one way ticket to France. The US would be better off without a bunch of anti-war pussies clogging the streets with your demonstrations and rallies. What a waste of air that I could be breathing. Go jump off a bridge. [/rant]

Quite the fanatic, aren't you? I don't see anything wrong with defending your country, but the last time the US had to defend itself was during World War II, if I'm not mistaken. All this Iraq business is just about grabbing oil and getting a better foothold in the middle-east. You'd be a complete ****wit to go along with Bush.

I've never understood why Americans have the need to foam about the patriotic defense of freedom when there's nothing patriotic or freedom-related going on. A bunch of mindless fanatics, judging by Internet message boards. Good thing you have Noam Chomsky.

 

[Fat Tony!]

He said he was sorry ...geez . Everyone be happy and friendly

 

[Champ]

We have draft in our country too, but that's only for homeland security. We don't get shipped out to Iraq unless we become professional soldiers...

 

[seinfeldrules]

I'm still looking for that statistics site, but here's something to tide you over until I find it.

Notice one of the last questions -
Q: What do you expect to happen with large numbers of soldiers coming back from Iraq?
A: Mass exit from the military. Mass!

And as for bringing it to public schools: Come on! How many things does the government do that does not make the national news?

Funding for the Military recruitment office (or whatever that thing's called) is being increased much faster than in other departments.

So one soldier represents the entire US military? Puhlease.

Quite the fanatic, aren't you? I don't see anything wrong with defending your country, but the last time the US had to defend itself was during World War II, if I'm not mistaken. All this Iraq business is just about grabbing oil and getting a better foothold in the middle-east. You'd be a complete ****wit to go along with Bush.

Yeah a terrorist slams a plane into a symbol of America(on American soil- 3000 dead), hijacks a plane (over American soil, intended for the Capitol- 300ish dead), and smashes a plane into the Pentagon (about 100 dead). Yeah, no attack against our freedom there :stare: . If we dont take the fight to them, they have shown they will take the fight to us. You just cant understand freedom if you cannot understand our will to fight. I would rather fight the war in Iraq then on the streets of NYC. Its better for our soldiers to fight them then our civilian police forces.

 

[KiNG]

Quite the fanatic, aren't you? I don't see anything wrong with defending your country, but the last time the US had to defend itself was during World War II, if I'm not mistaken. All this Iraq business is just about grabbing oil and getting a better foothold in the middle-east. You'd be a complete ****wit to go along with Bush.

I've never understood why Americans have the need to foam about the patriotic defense of freedom when there's nothing patriotic or freedom-related going on. A bunch of mindless fanatics, judging by Internet message boards. Good thing you have Noam Chomsky.

oh and those little people called iraqs.

seriously though, the war can be looked at in a good way and a bad way, its just depends how u want to view it. Coalition forces took a bad dictator out of power and is trying to set up a free government in iraq. im not saying it needed to be done but those iraq's children will be better off for it.

and i do get angered by ignorant people saying they dont owe thier country anything or that they dont want to die for something they dont believe in. do u believe in freedom or the well being of someone? they are strangers but they are people. it is nessessary to take lives in order to give it at times. the world does have bad people or people with very radical ideals probably more than u think and they wouldnt mind killing you wether your in fatigues or not.

i know most people dont like bush(including me) but he is trying to do a few good things. if i were drafted i wouldnt fight for him but for my country and yes there is a difference. but hey if you kids here would rather run around tryin to dodge the draft then so be it and let the men do the fighting and dying. i have no respect for the people in america who feel their country is a horrible tyrant that only wants money and power. our military defends more than our freedom and lives and im sorry u cant see that.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Agreed King (except for not liking Bush). I have no respect for an American who avoids the draft. You are the type of person who only looks our for yourself in life, you dont have the moral courage to stand up and accept responsibilty for your country which has supported you and given you freedom throughout your life.

You can say this all now, but what would you say if we hadnt gone in. Sure you wouldnt of said anything this year, or next year possibly, but how about 5 years from now. What would you say when NYC is hit with a biological weapon and hundreds of thousands of people die? You would blame Bush. It is about time for a President to take the inititave and attack before it is too late. It seems the world as a whole did not learn its lesson after WWII and many wars before that.

 

[CptStern]

if you hadnt supported saddam for 30 years he would have been overthrown a long time ago

I really dont see how any of you can think that the US will just hand over the government to the iraqis. Have you all completely forgotten about all the puppet regimes the CIA set up in south and central america over the last 50 years? Why would they have spent so much cash to destroy iraq, rebuild it only to hand it back?

and all of you who think that dodging the draft is cowardly are just naive...I'd rather spend the time in jail then go to a war that I am completely against.

 

[seinfeldrules]

That is why you are a moral coward Stern, putting yourself before the saftey of our country.

And if you dont know the reasons for us supporting Saddam, then I suggest you touch up on your history. We would obviously support him during that time period because of the Iranians. He was fighting them, so the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Not the most thought out plan, but what would you do if they took over your embassy and held hostages for years? Love them? Have YOU forgotten about Japan and Germany? It took us 8 and 10 years respectively to rebuild their countries and hold free elections. Today they have 2 of the most powerful economies in the world. This situation more closely resembles those two nations than our Central American attempts.

 

[CptStern]

That is why you are a moral coward Stern, putting yourself before the saftey of our country.

why would you assume I'm doing it out of my own safety? I morally object to the war, that's enough of a reason not to join

And if you dont know the reasons for us supporting Saddam, then I suggest you touch up on your history. We would obviously support him during that time period because of the Iranians. He was fighting them, so the enemy of our enemy is our friend.

so let me get this straight, it's ok for the US to sell chemical weapons to iraq to fight iran? Wasnt this the reason you went in this time?
Maybe you should brush up on history; the US was also selling weapons to iran through israel during that same war with saddam.

Have YOU forgotten about Japan and Germany? It took us 8 and 10 years respectively to rebuild their countries and hold free elections. Today they have 2 of the most powerful economies in the world. This situation more closely resembles those two nations than our Central American attempts.

I cant agree there, there was no resistance in occupied japan and they stayed for over 20 years (although, officially the occupation lasted 7).

 

[Anthraxxx]

why would you assume I'm doing it out of my own safety? I morally object to the war, that's enough of a reason not to join

If you morally object to war and don't feel that you could kill a man, then you support your country by serving in some other way, not by cowardly trying to dodge the draft so that you could end up in prison. Perhaps you don't know about it, but if you have a legitimate reason that you can prove, and you must have solid proof, then you tell that army recruiter that you would wish to apply for a non-combatant position. And don't think that you could fake the proof either, they will subject you to psychological tests to determine if you have the resolve to pull the trigger at another human being. They'll also do background research on you to see if people that you associate with(parents, friends, teachers...) can vouch for your supposed inability to kill. Dodging the draft is probably the most cowardly thing a person could do in the name of peace.

CptStern, do you actively support PETA?

 

[CptStern]

For the last time I object to the war on moral grounds, did you skip to the part where I said " I morally object to the war, that's enough of a reason not to join"...You are a fool if equate cowardice with having legitamate objections for going to the war in iraq. You are a fool for supporting your country without asking questions first. You're a fool for stereotyping people as "cowards" for standing up for what they believe in.

Conscientious objection is the most patriotic thing a person can do when their government is doing the wrong thing.

and what does PETA have to do with anything? Are you making assumptions? I could easily assume you're one of those gun happy hunter loons from kentucky named "Bubba", but I wont.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Omg at some of the opinions in here....it's actually quite disturbing.

Why are people so keen to become puppets of their government? Why are some of you so obedient and will unquestionably become a tool of evil?

Patriotism is DANGEROUS in the hands of idiots.

 

[Anthraxxx]

For the last time I object to the war on moral grounds, did you skip to the part where I said " I morally object to the war, that's enough of a reason not to join"...You are a fool if equate cowardice with having legitamate objections for going to the war in iraq. You are a fool for supporting your country without asking questions first. You're a fool for stereotyping people as "cowards" for standing up for what they believe in.

Conscientious objection is the most patriotic thing a person can do when their government is doing the wrong thing.

and what does PETA have to do with anything? Are you making assumptions? I could easily assume you're one of those gun happy hunter loons from kentucky named "Bubba", but I wont.

You say you have a legitimate moral reason for not serving you country in any way. Then why don't you tell us why? What reason do you have for not showing pride in your country? Would you rather have a tyrannical dictator like Saddam financially support terrorist organizations? Or is it morally wrong to forcefully remove Saddam from power in order to prevent what could have been even more funding for groups like Al-Qaeda to attack US soil?


If I'm a fool for supporting my country, than what does that make you? You seem to think that there is nothing that you could possibly do for your country that would be beneficial to other people. If you were asked to join the Nation Guard in order to help provide relief for flood victims in your own country, even though there could still be a risk of getting seriously injured, would you still join?

If the Islamic Jihad was brought to US soil and the call to arms to defend your country was needed, would you join? Or would you stand idly by while others die to preserve your freedom?

How can you call me a fool for stereotyping people as cowards who stand up for their beliefs, when you have already sterotyped me as a fool for standing up for my own beliefs and having pride in my country?


"I could easily assume you're one of those gun happy hunter loons from kentucky named "Bubba", but I wont."

You're just contradicting yourself.

 

[Pogrom]

Yeah a terrorist slams a plane into a symbol of America(on American soil- 3000 dead), hijacks a plane (over American soil, intended for the Capitol- 300ish dead), and smashes a plane into the Pentagon (about 100 dead). Yeah, no attack against our freedom there :stare: . If we dont take the fight to them, they have shown they will take the fight to us. You just cant understand freedom if you cannot understand our will to fight. I would rather fight the war in Iraq then on the streets of NYC. Its better for our soldiers to fight them then our civilian police forces.

Okay, so... A group of Afghan and Saudi terrorists perform terrorist acts in America. The US government ignores Saudi Arabia. The US government invades Afghanistan. The US government destroys the Taliban.

Then... The US says that Iraq is a threat to national security because Iraq has WMD. The US says Iraq has ties to Al Qaeda, even though Al Qaeda hated the secularism of Iraq. Bin Laden actually decried Saddam many times. Calling them allies would be like saying Churches are in favour of the 'No Prayers in Public Schools' Rule.

The US government said Iraq has WMD. The US said Iraq has ties to Al Qaeda. The US said the ONLY justifiable reason for going to war is because Iraq poses an immediate threat to the world. Colin Powell and Bush both stated before the war that just enforcing a regime change is not a justification for unilateral action.

After overthrowing the Baathist regime, the US changes it's policy, now saying it is OK for unilateral action if they are overthrowing a corrupt regime.

Invading Iraq was like invading the neighbour of your enemy. Sure, it might not be a nice guy, but he sure as hell wasn't in cahoots with your enemy.

----------------

And to all those equating moral disagreement with the war as the opposite of Patriotism - get a clue.

Patriotism as a definition is simply a love of one's country. It does not mean supporting everything the government does. If you hate Bush and think he lied about the whole mess in Iraq, it does not make you unpatriotic.

Freedom of thought and opinion is what a democracy is all about.

And enlisting as a soldier is not the only way to serve your country. Ensuring that your way of life is not destroyed is another.

If you allow the government to take away all of your freedoms (ala the Patriotism Act) then you have already lost against Terrorism.

 

[Cybernoid]

im not saying it needed to be done but those iraq's children will be better off for it.

Well, the ones who still have all their limbs and organs, at least.

i know most people dont like bush(including me) but he is trying to do a few good things. if i were drafted i wouldnt fight for him but for my country and yes there is a difference. but hey if you kids here would rather run around tryin to dodge the draft then so be it and let the men do the fighting and dying. i have no respect for the people in america who feel their country is a horrible tyrant that only wants money and power. our military defends more than our freedom and lives and im sorry u cant see that.

Oh my god.

Yeah a terrorist slams a plane into a symbol of America(on American soil- 3000 dead), hijacks a plane (over American soil, intended for the Capitol- 300ish dead), and smashes a plane into the Pentagon (about 100 dead). Yeah, no attack against our freedom there :stare: . If we dont take the fight to them, they have shown they will take the fight to us. You just cant understand freedom if you cannot understand our will to fight. I would rather fight the war in Iraq then on the streets of NYC. Its better for our soldiers to fight them then our civilian police forces.

Bin Laden is still on the loose, Iraq probably had nothing to do with 911 and you can't even combat terrorism with bombs. It's like trying to perform brain surgery with an axe.

It seems the world as a whole did not learn its lesson after WWII and many wars before that.

What were we supposed to learn? That war is necessary to keep the arms industry going and secure the oil from those evil arabs? Europe has been largely at peace after the two world wars because we actually know what war is like.

I swear, the Internet is full of complete ****ing morons.

 

[Pogrom]

Bin Laden is still on the loose, Iraq probably had nothing to do with 911 and you can't even combat terrorism with bombs. It's like trying to perform brain surgery with an axe.

Agreed. Now what is the original problem here?

Arab countries are full of anti-US sentiment.

Why?

Because the US had repeatedly shown two-faced dealings with them. Supporting first one, then the other. Selling chemical weapons, then spouting all sorts of nonense like chemical weapons being illegal. Also the US supports the hard line that Israel has been pursuing in their persecution of the Palestinians.

I don't condone terrorism, but what do you do when your entire family is killed, you have no army and you are trying to combat tanks and choppers?

And let us not forget that Zionist zealots were the ones who invented the modern terrorism method. In their bid to try and have an independant Jewish state, they set off a bomb in a crowded hotel, killing hundreds of civilians. Not Israel crys foul because the Palestinians are serving it back up to them?

What were we supposed to learn? That war is necessary to keep the arms industry going and secure the oil from those evil arabs? Europe has been largely at peace after the two world wars because we actually know what war is like.

I swear, the Internet is full of complete ****ing morons.

I believe he may be referring to the policy of Appeasement that led to Germany beginning WWII.

However, that is completely irrelevant here, as the US was not appeasing Iraq before the war. In fact, they were doing the opposite - imposing economic sanctions that were directly responsible for the deaths of millions f Iraqis.

 

[Fat Tony!]

God Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 :|.
How can you love your country? Its a piece of dirt, nothing. If you are drafted you are drafted not by your country but your government so whats the bloody point, your going out there blindly, with the possibility of dieing, giving your life for it, what a waste of life. Yeah its cowardly but who gives a shit, really. You shouldnt shovel your shit for ideas into other people's faces, people can do what they want. Its rape, a rape of your ideals, your time and possibly your life.
The only exception is when the country is in direct attack which it is not at the moment.

 

[Maskirovka]

THIS BILL IS NOT ABOUT THE DRAFT. THIS BILL DOES NOT FORCE MILITARY SERVICE. STOP TALKING ABOUT DYING FOR YOUR COUNTRY.

if this bill were about reinstating the draft, i would be against it too...i think the draft is morally wrong unless there is a conventional army that poses a serious worldwide threat (like WWII and say...if the soviets had invaded europe or something). not only is the draft morally wrong, but it's stupid unless we're desperate. the US army is so good because it's all-volunteer and professional. having a bunch of pissed-off draftees would just make things worse.

i don't understand why you guys wouldn't be willing to serve your country for 2 years AT HOME...IN THE US...NOT IN THE MILITARY. so if the gov't is screwing up and causing problems in the middle east, and terrorists want to destroy us, then you can help by defending your country...not in the ideological bullshit way of invading other countries, but by working with the dept. of homeland security or something similar.

surely there's honor in that even if you don't agree with the war. you can still protest the war and do your civic duty by disagreeing with the war, questioning the practices of whatever administration is in power, and casting your vote every 4th november.

 

[CptStern]

You say you have a legitimate moral reason for not serving you country in any way. Then why don't you tell us why? What reason do you have for not showing pride in your country?

oh jebus effing christ how do I have to say this to you so that you understand:

I DONT SUPPORT YOUR IMPERIALISTIC WAR BECAUSE I DONT THINK THE WAR IN IRAQ IS JUSTIFIED.

Are you proud when your country kills thousands of innocent civilians? I guess since it happened to non-americans it's no big deal

Would you rather have a tyrannical dictator like Saddam financially support terrorist organizations?

YOU financially supported Saddam for 30 years! you didnt give a crap when he turned the weapons the US sold to him on his own neighbours and citizens. You didnt care when the US did nothing to help the kurds.
If you truley believe the US was their to end the rule of a madman then you're a bigger fool than I thought. Right now as we speak there is ethnic cleansing in the Sudan...I guess the US being the staunch defender of freedom everywhere will charge to the rescue. Where were you when 10 million rwandans were butchered?

Or is it morally wrong to forcefully remove Saddam from power in order to prevent what could have been even more funding for groups like Al-Qaeda to attack US soil?

give me one shred of evidence that saddam was involved with 9/11.

How can you call me a fool for stereotyping people as cowards who stand up for their beliefs, when you have already sterotyped me as a fool for standing up for my own beliefs and having pride in my country?

you're a fool because you support the war without knowing the facts (as some of your statements made quite clear)

 

[Maskirovka]

it's true anthraxxx...saddam had nothing to do with al-qaeda except perhaps doing nothing about some al-qaeda affiliated camps in the northern part of iraq...there are no WMD in iraq and i don't buy that "they're in syria" bullshit.

and stern has a point about the sudan...if there was oil in the sudan, we'd be there trying to stabilize the country....which makes the "we're there to help the iraqis" argument total bullshit.

anyone who thinks the iraq war is about anything but the fact that we defeated saddam in the first gulf war and he didn't comply with the terms of the cease fire...he fired on our planes in the no-fly zone continuously, etc. saddam lost the war...he didn't comply with the terms of that loss, and he's gone now....very very simple.

the thing i object to is the fact that the bush admin. wants to justify it in all these false, stupid ways. i'm smart enough to know why saddam should be gotten rid of...i don't need this "immediate threat" and "omgz al-qaeda" bullshit justifications. just tell me that he wasn't complying with the terms of surrender and i'd be for the war.

still...the point is...i think it's not a bad idea to have mandatory NON-MILITARY service. it's good for the people participating in it, and it's good for the country...(as long as it's done right and it's not some godawful bureaucratic mess...which it very well might turn out to be if it's voted in.)

 

[Mr-Fusion]

The Al-quaeda - Saddam link was created to further convince the blindly patriotic (Anthraxxx type people) that the war is right.

Some day Anthraxxx, you'll start to question your government and the reasons why they invade and realise that you should be bearing arms against your own President instead of other countries....

 

[Fat Tony!]

Yeah the topics changed now maskirovka, we're talking in "ifs" now

 

[Maskirovka]

Yeah the topics changed now maskirovka, we're talking in "ifs" now

well if this argument is now about a military draft, then i've already stated my unchangeable opinion

though i hope nobody is seriously for a military draft...the fact that the US army is all volunteer is what makes it so good. i know i wouldn't want to be a commander dealing with trying to mix professionals soldiers with draftees...what a nightmare.