Useless theories

[lame-o]

1) Is it possible that through our society's (American, so white Christian people) supposed overly non-discriminative attitude towards minorities and other religions - like taking down a crucifix because it annoys some religious folk - is actually, in the end, creating discrimination for white Christians?

2) Is it possible that prejudice will not cease to exist as long as people keep noticing it? For example: I notice someone is black.

3) Is it possible that we are all hypocrites who realize we suck but don't do anything about it? IE. We say McDonald's sucks but we still eat there.

4) I forgot.

 

[CyberPitz]

You're right, useless theories

But all in all, you have some interesting points in life, but can be summed up into just one thing.

We are human. That's it, we can't change what we are. We will always follow this route, and I seriously doubt it will change by the time this race is gone.

 

[Vegeta897]

Is it possible this thread is pending some hot debate action?

Yes.

 

[Cheomesh]

1) Is it possible that through our society's (American, so white Christian people) supposed overly non-discriminative attitude towards minorities and other religions - like taking down a crucifix because it annoys some religious folk - is actually, in the end, creating discrimination for white Christians?

Yes. This is called appeasement, I think. We are "making up for it" by reversing the roles.

2) Is it possible that prejudice will not cease to exist as long as people keep noticing it? For example: I notice someone is black.

Not quite sure what you mean. I notice people are different from myself but I don't mistreat them because of it. For instance, I don't look down on / expect less from someone who's black because they are black.

3) Is it possible that we are all hypocrites who realize we suck but don't do anything about it? IE. We say McDonald's sucks but we still eat there.

People who pick on others for something normally do so because they dislike such a trait in themselves.

4) I forgot.

We've pills for that.

 

[lame-o]

Yeah actually I think you're right about the prejudice thing. I was saying that prejudice is inevitable if people keep seeing differences in each other - I didn't care to think that it's impossible (and probably would be horrible) for everyone to be exactly the same or to simply ignore our differences. That would be messed up... shoooo

EDIT: anyone else have theories? lol

EDIT: I also worded it wrong which made it look like I was being racist.

 

[hydrometeor]

2) Is it possible that prejudice will not cease to exist as long as people keep noticing it? For example: I notice someone is black.

No. Black people have on average a much lower IQ than everyone else, so they will never be socially equal.

 

[Cheomesh]

No. Black people have on average a much lower IQ than everyone else, so they will never be socially equal.

*blow to your head* gtfo with your intolerance.

 

[lame-o]

Well the statistics are true, and although society is hampering black people from getting good educations, doesn't mean they can't... Just like being an immigrant, you gotta work for it.

 

[hydrometeor]

*blow to your head* gtfo with your intolerance.

Sorry, fact is black people have lower IQs on average, and studies show it's partly genetic.

 

[Cheomesh]

I say skewed test results.

 

[[Matt]]

1) Is it possible that through our society's (American, so white Christian people) supposed overly non-discriminative attitude towards minorities and other religions - like taking down a crucifix because it annoys some religious folk - is actually, in the end, creating discrimination for white Christians?

In those specific cases where people complained about crosses bieng erected to signify something or other such as police officers killed in the line of duty in one southern state (forget the case name now) they're for the most part complaining about the use of government funds build them. The US constitution forbids the government to promote religion in any shape or form and i cant see a cross bieng anything other than a religious symbol.

2) Is it possible that prejudice will not cease to exist as long as people keep noticing it? For example: I notice someone is black.

Prejudice will never entirely vanish because sadly its human nature to fear anything different to us. At best we can educate people who discriminate on differences to treat others as equals instead.

3) Is it possible that we are all hypocrites who realize we suck but don't do anything about it? IE. We say McDonald's sucks but we still eat there.

As has been mentioned before people who pick on other peoples faults may simply be doing so because we dont like the same trait when it arises in ourselves. If you say macdonalds sucks but still eat there you're really wishing you we're not addicted to junk food and had the willpower to eat better?

4) I forgot.[/QUOTE]

Look into my neuraliser! *FLASH* Your name is jon you didnt see that large glowing disk in the sky and you never were asking these silly questions in the first place!!

 

[[Matt]]

Sorry, fact is black people have lower IQs on average, and studies show it's partly genetic.

And lol.... you do know you can raise IQ levels by merely having a better education? Revise for an IQ test beforehand and you can raise you're final score by as much as 17 points :>

I've never valued IQ tests for that reason. They can be a rough indication that someone might be smarter than average but nothing more. To me getting a good score on an IQ test means your just good at taking IQ tests.

 

[hydrometeor]

I say skewed test results.

Just because you want everyone to be equal doesn't mean they are.

 

[No Limit]

Just because you want everyone to be equal doesn't mean they are.

You aren't going to post any sources, are you?

 

[hydrometeor]

Race differences in brain size have been examined in a number of studies. East Asians have an average cranial capacity of 1,364 cm3, Whites 1,347 cm3 and Blacks 1,267 cm

Another researcher Philippe Rushton found African university students averaged an IQ of 84. In some studies, by other researchers, they have scored lower (IQ = 77).

1.

The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.
2.

Race Differences are Most Pronounced on Tests that Best Measure the General Intelligence Factor (g). Black-White differences, for example, are larger on the Backward Digit Span test than on the less g loaded Forward Digit Span test.
3.

The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.
4.

Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.
5.

Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
6.

Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.
7.

IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.
8.

Race Differences in Other "Life-History" Traits. East Asians and Blacks consistently fall at two ends of a continuum with Whites intermediate on 60 measures of maturation, personality, reproduction, and social organization. For example, Black children sit, crawl, walk, and put on their clothes earlier than Whites or East Asians.
9.

Race Differences and the Out-of-Africa theory of Human Origins. East Asian-White-Black differences fit the theory that modern humans arose in Africa about 100,000 years ago and expanded northward. During prolonged winters there was evolutionary selection for higher IQ created by problems of raising children, gathering and storing food, gaining shelter, and making clothes.
10.

Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data? Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ, especially the East Asian data. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or "Head Start" programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=9530

There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so.

 

[repiV]

Can we ban him now?

What, because you don't like what he has to say?

Let's burn the witches while we're at it.

In answer to "useless theory #1", of course. It manifests itself as official government policy in the guises of affirmative action and positive discrimination amongst many other forms.
Ironically the vast majority of racially motivated crimes are committed against white people.

 

[Cheomesh]

Hydro, by that study, why don't we remove all but the Asian race? They are obviously 'superior'.

 

[hydrometeor]

Hydro, by that study, why don't we remove all but the Asian race? They are obviously 'superior'.

The study doesn't advocate removing races.

 

[Krynn72]

Why is everyone pissed off that hydrometeor is posting statistics? Just because they dont fit in with our politically correct society doesnt mean that its not true. Its not like it makes any difference anyways.

 

[CyberPitz]

People bitch about hydro just being a racist, then he posts statistics, and he's getting bitched at about something else?

It's never ending.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I disagree with what hydrometeor says, but I respect his right to say it.

 

[Krynn72]

You cant really disagree with the statistics, unless you have evidence that they are inaccurate.

The only thing he has said in here that you can possibly disagree with or get angry with is this quote:

so they will never be socially equal.

Which, I do disagree with.

 

[kirovman]

Isn't he knghenry?

I mean, thats a capital offence in itself.

 

[Cole]

1) Is it possible that through our society's (American, so white Christian people) supposed overly non-discriminative attitude towards minorities and other religions - like taking down a crucifix because it annoys some religious folk - is actually, in the end, creating discrimination for white Christians?

2) Is it possible that prejudice will not cease to exist as long as people keep noticing it? For example: I notice someone is black.

3) Is it possible that we are all hypocrites who realize we suck but don't do anything about it? IE. We say McDonald's sucks but we still eat there.

4) I forgot.

1.)Americans are not all white christian people. America is not discrimination free, no country is.

2.)It's ok to notice details and adjectives. That's cool. If I seen a black man, he is black. Theres nothing wrong for noticing or saying that detail. However it is illogical it make assumptions about that man simply because he is black.

3.)Not everyone eats at McDonalds. I don't. While some believe McDonalds is bad for you, they do enjoy eating and enjoy it enough to not care about there health.

4.)So do we all...

 

[hydrometeor]

Which, I do disagree with.

They can be legally equal, and in fact already are. That's fine. But black people, on average, will always be poorer and have worse jobs. This is impossible to fix, unless different races interbreed enough to eliminate any intellect distinctions.

 

[theotherguy]

They can be legally equal, and in fact already are. That's fine. But black people, on average, will always be poorer and have worse jobs. This is impossible to fix, unless different races interbreed enough to eliminate any intellect distinctions.

**** you you racist pig.

 

[repiV]

**** you you racist pig.

He may or may not be right - in fact, he's almost certainly wrong, the causes behind chronic underachivement amongst blacks are likely to be mainly cultural. But he has something intelligent to say, whether you want to hear it or not. And there is no rational reason to assume that genetic differences between races would end at the brain. They extend far beyond a simple matter of skin colour.
So grow the **** up.

 

[hydrometeor]

He may or may not be right - in fact, he's almost certainly wrong, the causes behind chronic underachivement amongst blacks are likely to be mainly cultural. But he has something intelligent to say, whether you want to hear it or not. So grow the **** up.

Almost certainly wrong? I posted various sources showing how the differences are partly cultural and partly genetic. Did you see the theories about how colder climates led to natural selection favoring intelligence? Please explain why young black children are dumber than young white children, if it's mostly environmental.

If blacks are significantly dumber (as every source I've seen says), then they can never be socially equal. Again, I'm talking about averages - many blacks are certainly very successful.

 

[repiV]

Almost certainly wrong? I posted various sources showing how the differences are partly cultural and partly genetic. Did you see the theories about how colder climates led to natural selection favoring intelligence? Please explain why young black children are dumber than young white children, if it's mostly environmental.

Young black children are brought up in black culture, young white children are not. The reality is that there is a veritable culture chasm between the two groups, especially in the USA.

If blacks are significantly dumber (as every source I've seen says), then they can never be socially equal. Again, I'm talking about averages - many blacks are certainly very successful.

Now according to a wonderful book called Freakonomics, if you isolate all the other variables then race makes no difference whatsoever to educational attainment or career success. A black person and a white person from the same background will have an identical chance of being successful.
Which means that it must be a cultural and/or economic thing.

 

[repiV]

Isn't there a rule against racism on these boards? The last image dump thread was closed recently because of several excessively racist posts if I recall correctly. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the meaning of the word "racism", instead of being a politically correct numpty trying to shut down free speech.

 

[theotherguy]

Almost certainly wrong? I posted various sources showing how the differences are partly cultural and partly genetic. Did you see the theories about how colder climates led to natural selection favoring intelligence? Please explain why young black children are dumber than young white children, if it's mostly environmental.

If blacks are significantly dumber (as every source I've seen says), then they can never be socially equal. Again, I'm talking about averages - many blacks are certainly very successful.

That is a flat out lie.

Race is meaningless in genetic terms. Very very few genes are responsible for determining a person's race, and most of them have to do with very slight changes in melanin levels and facial features. None of them have to do with neuronal changes.

Intelligence, Race, and Genetics. Authors Robert J. Sternberg, PhD (Yale University), Elena L. Grigorenko, PhD (Yale University), and Kenneth K. Kidd, PhD (Yale University), submit that research that attempts to link genetics and race with intelligence is invalid-based in folklore and not in science. Race is a social construction, not a scientific one, according to the authors, and studies of the relationship between race and other constructs may serve (or harm) social ends, but they do not serve science well.

"There is nothing special about the skin color that serves as a basis for differentiating humans into so-called "races," the authors state.

All your IQ studies prove are the social constraints placed on people of minority races and the effect that it has on mental development and acheivement. It is not genetic, it is environmental.

Genetic racial identification is a myth, and should be buried, along with the KKK, the nazis and all the other fools and tyrants who espouse its hateful, eugenicist message. Including you.

 

[repiV]

That is a flat out lie.

Race is meaningless in genetic terms. Very very few genes are responsible for determining a person's race, and most of them have to do with very slight changes in melanin levels and facial features. None of them have to do with neuronal changes.



All your IQ studies prove are the social constraints placed on people of minority races and the effect that it has on mental development and acheivement. It is not genetic, it is environmental.

Genetic racial identification is a myth, and should be buried, along with the KKK, the nazis and all the other fools and tyrants who espouse its hateful, eugenicist message. Including you.

He might be talking bollocks, but so are you. Race is not just a social construct, although that is a completely separate issue and involves a different meaning of the term altogether. There's a reason that the best athletes are black - they're flat-out physically superior to other races.
Does that make me racist too?
Evidently the different human races exist for a reason - white people aren't very well equipped to live in hot climates without the aid of technology.

The biggest bollocks of all though is your quip about "social constraints placed on people of minority races". Black people get the most help of all, and whites are discriminated against on a daily basis in order to give unfair priority to them. Other racial groups perform better than whites, both in the West and in their home countries. Asians (particularly East Asians and Indians) consistently outperform whites in education and in the workplace, in both our countries.
Blacks, on the other hand, most certainly do not. Black culture rewards people who can't speak English properly (no wonder they can't get a job), make nothing of their lives (if you wear a suit and try and make it in the white man's world, you're a sellout and you're acting white) and is generally the anti-thesis of anything that would inspire success. Just look at hip-hop for christ's sake.
For the last time, it ain't all the ****ing white man's fault. The white man has actually been assraped for the last 40 years to give minorities unfair advantages. Got it?

 

[repiV]

Okay.

Oops. Looks like racism to me.

Looks like you cherry-picked your definition to me. Racism is prejudice applied to race. Discussing science as it applies to race can never be racism, and frankly I think you need to grow a backbone instead of trying to censor other people's discussions. Even if anyone here was being racist (if anyone, it's theotherguy and his notions of white shame), so ****ing what?
If you don't like it, get involved in the discussion yourself instead of being a busybody back-door moderator.

 

[hydrometeor]

A survey was conducted in 1987 of a broad sample of 1,020 scholars in specialties that would give them reason to be knowledgeable about IQ (but not necessarily about race). The survey was given to members of the American Education Research Association, National Council on Measurement in Education, American Psychological Association, American Sociological Association, Behavior Genetics Association, and Cognitive Science Society. According to the report, regarding the question "The source of black-white difference in IQ":

This is perhaps the central question in the IQ controversy. Respondents were asked to express their opinion of the role of genetic differences in the black-white IQ differential. Forty-five percent believe the difference to be a product of both genetic and environmental variation, compared to only 15% who feel the difference is entirely due to environmental variation. Twenty-four percent of experts do not believe there are sufficient data to support any reasonable opinion, and 14% did not respond to the question. Eight experts (1%) indicate a belief in an entirely genetic determination.[175]

Seems that most well-qualified scholars agree with me about it being partly genetically based.

 

[Wanted Bob]

Is it possible this thread is pending some hot debate action?

Yes.

How right you were.

How much of an intelligence difference are we talking? Is it enough to be of any significance, or is this "worse jobs" idea just a generalization?

Just another thought, but does ones IQ dictate their success in life? I wouldnt think so, therefore I dont think ones IQ should affect their social acceptibility.

 

[repiV]

You need to calm down.

I'm calm.

How right you were.

How much of an intelligence difference are we talking? Is it enough to be of any significance, or is this "worse jobs" idea just a generalization?

Just another thought, but does ones IQ dictate their success in life? I wouldnt think so, therefore I dont think ones IQ should affect their social acceptibility.

IQ corresponds very strongly with economic success in life.

For a somewhat wider perspective, check out "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" when you have a moment.

 

[Wanted Bob]

If I get the chance I will

I dunno though, success in life isnt nescessarily economic. There are some people that are perfectly happy with jobs that dont give out massive paychecks.

 

[hydrometeor]

If I get the chance I will

I dunno though, success in life isnt nescessarily economic. There are some people that are perfectly happy with jobs that dont give out massive paychecks.

Your economic status/power in life is the most important part of success. Otherwise someone more powerful than you can throw you into solitary confinement or kill you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[repiV]

If I get the chance I will

I dunno though, success in life isnt nescessarily economic. There are some people that are perfectly happy with jobs that dont give out massive paychecks.

That's true, but in the modern world we tend to define success in terms of wealth and status.
Although there is no significant correlation between IQ and happiness. On a more anecdotal level, from speaking to various people I've known from all over the world I'd be very inclined to believe that people from the third world are often actually a whole lot happier than we are in the West.
It's not too hard to believe - happiness is all about your attitude, after all. We're always chasing the next thing we think we need to achieve happiness, but in a village in Africa there are no big dreams or aspirations. Perhaps they just learn to be happy with the things they do have in a way that all too few of us can understand.
Personally speaking, apart from the usual bouts of frustration and loneliness, I'm no less happy since I shattered my leg in a motorbike accident a few weeks ago. I'm certainly a lot worse off now - it'll be six to eight months before I can walk or ride again, I'm practically housebound and I don't know when I'll be able to go back to work, but it's changed my perspective on life to quite an extent, if you see what I mean.

 

[Wanted Bob]

Your economic status/power in life is the most important part of success. Otherwise someone more powerful than you can throw you into solitary confinement or kill you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

No matter how powerful you are, you are gonna have at least one other person that has more power than you, so that risk is prominent regardless of your economic status (more of a generalization of the public, as not everyone is a dictator of a country).

Yes, according to most people economic power is important in success, but to lay that down as an absolute fact is wrong IMO. repiV made mention to Third-World communities that do in fact get along without thousands of dollars, yet are still happy and successful to themselves.

Why not just leave it at "some people dont need social power to be successful in life"? What you define as success isnt what another person might think.