Valve > Pirates

[Fallout2man]

Nope, its still stealing. Its just theft of intellectual property instead of physical property. Theft is theft. And there is no difference, ethically. Thats just another way for people to justify it so they dont feel bad. In the end, its a load of BS.

This is based on the faulty notion that intillectual property and physical property are one in the same. An idea is an entirely different concept then an object. An object cannot be owned by more then one person at a time, an idea spreads freely without taking anything from anyone.

Intillectual property, is not a natural right, in fact it's technically a deceptive term, because an idea really isn't property. Rather, they are government granted limited monopolies on implimentation of an idea in the physical world. They're limited in scope because it's not even naturally possible to hoard ideas unless you never tell anyone.

It was made originally to spur the arts, and then warped beyond recognition by corporations. Copyright was originally only about 14-28 years, not the 90 after death or 90 after creation we have now.

 

[Alig]

LOL a keyboard bad arse. Get real and get a life. You think its ok to steal as long you dont get caught. Go get some morals. As far as me running into a real life criminal, my bet is your well on your way to meeting a whole bunch of em in jail.

Lol yeah ok.

 

[Gunner]

So much flaming going on here, you guys are hijacking the thread. What's done is done, if you got your account disabled then tough luck - go buy the game - if you bought HL² then good for you, everything's cool. Stop bickering like petty children over this.

 

[Fallout2man]

More justification to make one feel better about stealing.

Here's an idea, give me a justifacation for your claims. Why are intillectual and physical property the same? how can an idea have any loss associated with its spread? Give something to back up your position other then "just because."

 

[Dragoro]

I never said they were the same, but stealing either one is still stealing.

 

[Alig]

...Huh? How exactly does this work?

BT clients and p2p. The same way you got that HDD full of MP3's ..

 

[Absinthe]

BT clients and p2p. The same way you got that HDD full of MP3's ..

No, I mean what exactly makes them free? Last I checked, those songs had a price tag on them.

Just because the world can access it doesn't make it free.

 

[Fallout2man]

I never said they were the same, but stealing either one is still stealing.

If they're not the same then how can you steal? You can't steal an idea. I can't go reach in your head, and say, take a recipie for some food dish, or knowledge on how to run a computer, and then make it so you can never use that again.

I can learn your skills, but not take them away. As ideas are not really transferrable, but rather copyable. Because of this it is impossible to steal an idea, as there is no loss other then an assumed loss that "hey, if he hadn't have copied it, maybe I could've sold it to him?"

If we're going to treat assumed losses as actual losses, why don't we sue everyone who never buys major label releases (and never downloads them either) due to moral objection to the RIAA and their practices for lost sales?

And while we're at it, why don't we just sue everyone who never went to theaters and instead waited for DVD releases, because of convenience, for lost MPAA/theater revenue?

This is the type of logic you're using.

 

[OmegaX]

Ok what if they ban your account? Most people downloading illegaly by steam probably create a new account to do so, and if steam bans your account why not just make a new one? Its not big deal... VALVe is just trying to scare pirates.

 

[Fallout2man]

No, I mean what exactly makes them free? Last I checked, those songs had a price tag on them.

Just because the world can access it doesn't make it free.

And by the same token, just because something's legally wrong does not necessarily make it ethically wrong.

 

[Dragoro]

If they're not the same then how can you steal? You can't steal an idea. I can't go reach in your head, and say, take a recipie for some food dish, or knowledge on how to run a computer, and then make it so you can never use that again.

I can learn your skills, but not take them away. As ideas are not really transferrable, but rather copyable. Because of this it is impossible to steal an idea, as there is no loss other then an assumed loss that "hey, if he hadn't have copied it, maybe I could've sold it to him?"

If we're going to treat assumed losses as actual losses, why don't we sue everyone who never buys major label releases (and never downloads them either) due to moral objection to the RIAA and their practices for lost sales?

And while we're at it, why don't we just sue everyone who never went to theaters and instead waited for DVD releases, because of convenience, for lost MPAA/theater revenue?

This is the type of logic you're using.

You most certainly can steal an idea, your able to patent and copyright ideas, therefore your able to steal ideas, or there wouldnt be a need to copyright em in the first place.

 

[heroin]

Acting like people who legally bought it who wish to discuss this as "bickering like children" is like saying, "Bush was elected fairly, get over it what is done is done". It's pretty much saying, don't discuss, be apathetic and complacent what's done is done - why discuss? It's just ignorant.

That's not what America is about. People need to discuss these issues no matter how minute. Valve pulling these maneuvers should be analyzed and critiqued, just like the WTO, Bush, corporations or whatever should be analyzed, critiqued and criticized. Why should Steam be different or untouchable in discussion?

I find it interesting that Valve published a game about a future 1984-esque game with a police-state and all would pull something inspired from that same evil it seems like they are hinting at rebelling against. I guess that was all just a marketing strategy and they don't really agree with the content in their game?

 

[TMPer Tantrum]

the people who make MAME in there readme it says you can have these game for free but when your in the arcade play a few from you own pocket.

The games are not theirs to give away, or negotiate terms around.

That is no different from someone writing a Steam emulator with the Valve collection on and saying that it is alright to use it as long as you play a game or two in a cybercafe if you are in one.

 

[Absinthe]

And by the same token, just because something's legally wrong does not necessarily make it ethically wrong.

But there are many people that do warez games with the intent of playing them and without the intent of giving a single dime to the developer. The bottom line is that if you warez and play a game, you are indulging yourself in somebody else's hard work for no cost. Valve makes games for a living. Their success largely depends on how many games they sell. When people start adopting the kind of mindset of "Hey! Why bother paying for this game when I can get it for free?", Valve starts losing customers.

You can dance around the issue of what constitutes theft all you like. I just ask you to think for a second about where all your games would be if everybody d/led them through a P2P network rather than through a proper retail service. Most likely, people wouldn't be making games any more.

 

[Kommie]

You most certainly can steal an idea, your able to patent and copyright ideas, therefore your able to steal ideas, or there wouldnt be a need to copyright em in the first place.

Technically speaking copyrights were invented to provide incentive for people to invent, as they get a monopoly on the idea and the SOLE RIGHT to COPY their Ideas.
You are using the general definition of stealing which encompasses copying ideas "HEY you STOLE my idea" in which case you are right
But the reason copyrights were created is to keep people from copying and idea, you see ideas arent tangible things that someone could steal from you, Once someone copies your idea you still have it in your possesion as opposed to stealing in which it is gon from your possesion

Stealing (as of dictionary.com
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
5. Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.

copying (as of dictionary.com)
1. An imitation or reproduction of an original; a duplicate: a copy of a painting; made two copies of the letter.
2. One specimen or example of a printed text or picture: an autographed copy of a novel.
3. Material, such as a manuscript, that is to be set in type.
4. The words to be printed or spoken in an advertisement.
5. Suitable source material for journalism: Celebrities make good copy.

Technically speaking you are incorrect, morally and in the broader general sense you are correct (thats my opinion)

 

[Spiffe]

people that download hl2 are so annoying....
I can admit that i'm not an angel, and that i have downloaded some games in my days. But NEVER HL2 I didn't even think about it for a second. And now when i'm on dc and so on, there are so many that asks in the chat how to get hl2 to work, and what version to download. I tell them to buy it, and some other agree.. but the rest helps them out. and then they are back and like; Thanks guys now it's working.

Lets face it. noone can ever stop warez.... Sometimes it's saaaad... But thats it =(

 

[Kommie]

people that download hl2 are so annoying....
I can admit that i'm not an angel, and that i have downloaded some games in my days. But NEVER HL2 I didn't even think about it for a second. And now when i'm on dc and so on, there are so many that asks in the chat how to get hl2 to work, and what version to download. I tell them to buy it, and some other agree.. but the rest helps them out. and then they are back and like; Thanks guys now it's working.

Lets face it. noone can ever stop warez.... Sometimes it's saaaad... But thats it =(

He speaks the truth, The simple truth that No matter how strict the rules no matter how hard the punishments no matter what people will ultimately find a way to do what they damn well please.
I kind of find that refreshing the whole people finding a way to do what they want regardless of "opression" thing. not piracy

 

[ParaBellum]

It is everyone's moral duty to get an illegal copy of HL2 as long as that piece of crap steam is being forced on customers.

 

[Inertiadriftsc]

Listen women 1.Get a life! 2. Stop being a passive agressive snitch. 3. Do humanity a favor and never ever breed. It's pathtic people like you that truly bring humanity down to its (Why should they have something I dont WA WA WA!) most disgusting level.

I purchased half life 2. If someone wants to take the time to get it for free good for them. Wake up Valve is just as curropt as the people who steal from them.. Gabe is an immoral uneducated joke of a company president. I could go on and on but I just had to post becuase the two of you make me sick.

arent we on a vindicitive society is the spawn of satan mood. and uneducated is hardly a word i'd use for gabe but hey, im not a sexist, anarchist, society is out to get me, ted kazinski. (I have a real problem with things like "listen women")

 

[conquistador69]

The analogy of speeding on the road to game piracy is a good one. If one person speeds, no one is hurt--absolutely no one. If everyone speeds, society incurs additional costs, like increased wear on roads, added fuel usage, and increased injury and fatality counts in accidents. But no one individual can be blamed inordinately for any of it.

Piracy, like speeding, is wrong. However, there are degrees of wrongdoing, and physical theft of objects is certainly worse than piracy. That should be clear to anyone who actually thinks it all through, without getting blinded by one-sided rhetoric.

As for buying the game after an account has been banned, save your money. How are you going to play it? Valve has banned users who have attempted to register a pirated copy, and has not lifted the ban after they came back with a legitimate, store-bought copy and key. I'm sure some of you will think this serves them right, but think about it a little longer. If Valve cuts off part of their own legitimate customer base out of spite, there will be an added push to go mainstream with piracy methods to play the game. More people involved means more successful attempts to make it happen, and more widespread distribution. Then there is the legal morass that could come of Valve's practice, since in effect, some people are being defrauded when they plunk down their $50-60 American for this game. How's that any better, any more moral, than piracy?

 

[Malfunction]

No way I'm digging through this thread to see if it's been posted, so I'll just add to the fun for Valve.

http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/11/23/1723232.shtml?tid=204&tid=172

 

[Fallout2man]

You most certainly can steal an idea, your able to patent and copyright ideas, therefore your able to steal ideas, or there wouldnt be a need to copyright em in the first place.

But that's just IT. You're not stealing the ideas. You're infringing on the owner's government granted monopoly to copy, distribute, and control their idea in the first place. For theft to have taken place you'd have had to have taken something tangible that cannot be replaced, that is not the case. Rather, you are copying without their permission.

But there are many people that do warez games with the intent of playing them and without the intent of giving a single dime to the developer. The bottom line is that if you warez and play a game, you are indulging yourself in somebody else's hard work for no cost. Valve makes games for a living. Their success largely depends on how many games they sell. When people start adopting the kind of mindset of "Hey! Why bother paying for this game when I can get it for free?", Valve starts losing customers.

You can dance around the issue of what constitutes theft all you like. I just ask you to think for a second about where all your games would be if everybody d/led them through a P2P network rather than through a proper retail service. Most likely, people wouldn't be making games any more.

Actually, people would make games for the hell of it. We wouldn't have big million dollar blockbusters, but as the mod community has made evidence of, there is much interest in making games just for the sake of making games.

Will some people download and never buy? of course, however, would those people have bought it anyway were the download unavailable? that's the question on everyone's mind. It's just not possible right now to prove that sort of thing, so we're left with a big gray area.

For the record, I personally am paying for my copy of half-life 2 and never once downloaded it. Right now I'm impatiently waiting on my bank to get me my visa check card so I can buy the steam silver edition.

 

[conquistador69]

No way I'm digging through this thread to see if it's been posted, so I'll just add to the fun for Valve.

http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/11/23/1723232.shtml?tid=204&tid=172

Quote from your link: "People are discovering that when you buy any product that is subject to 'activation', you haven't really bought anything."

That's it in a nutshell. Even after spending all that good money, you have nothing unless Valve gives you their permission to use it. Or not. Good or bad, it's their decision, not yours. If you have no problems with granting complete strangers that much power over you, have fun, for as long a they decide it will last.

 

[Absinthe]

It is everyone's moral duty to get an illegal copy of HL2 as long as that piece of crap steam is being forced on customers.

Your problem. Not mine.

 

[SoheilsX]

Two threads first.

http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthr...threadid=184810
http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthr...threadid=185082

I'm a little hazy right now, but it seems that a sneaky way to pirate HL2 through Steam showed up on the intraweb. God know how many cheery warez scene cool kiddies proceeded to follow the instructions to enter a special key, unplug their connections and fool Steam into adding the game to their account. They could then extract the files from the caches and play with the -steam command line switch.

But wait - surely you should be able do that with any old pirated version? In fact, you couldn't at all. It now seems that the entire thing was a sting set up by Valve to catch out pirates, utilising Steam to finally let the developers take an offensive! All affected accounts were been disabled, and the fraudsters lost all their games including any legit copies of HL2 purchased after they realised they'd been tricked.

I'll post more info as soon as I can find it and make any corrections ASAP. Always buy your games people!

You guys are f'in morons, there are 18 different versions out, 15 of which dont even require steam to be installed on your machine. Valve caught 20k useless accounts, but missed just over 300k.

Bittorrent alone takes up over 34% of the worlds internet traffic, and piracy is at an all time high. No one, no company in the world can stop pirates from redistributing software.

I support valve and I actually bought this game, but to believe this is just idiotic. Pirating will NEVER stop.

 

[Krynn72]

lol. Saying piracy will NEVER stop is just retarded. Once it gets to be a big enough problem you better be damn sure that the man will stop it. I have no doubts that, eventually, laws will be passed which allow monitoring of whats being downloaded or uploaded by users. There will be some privacy infringment, and people will be pissed, but it wont matter, because what the govt wants, the govt gets. It would be quite easy to keep track of all you guys. Whether it be via the ISPs keeping records of where you are, or some other form, in the future, piracy will end. The effort and risk it will take will not equal the benefit. The only question is when this will happen.

 

[Fallout2man]

lol. Saying piracy will NEVER stop is just retarded. Once it gets to be a big enough problem you better be damn sure that the man will stop it. I have no doubts that, eventually, laws will be passed which allow monitoring of whats being downloaded or uploaded by users. There will be some privacy infringment, and people will be pissed, but it wont matter, because what the govt wants, the govt gets. It would be quite easy to keep track of all you guys. Whether it be via the ISPs keeping records of where you are, or some other form, in the future, piracy will end. The effort and risk it will take will not equal the benefit. The only question is when this will happen.

Ian Clarke's freenet is able to penetrate the chinese government's ultra-strict 'net monitoring. The technology is still a bit raw and unsuited to peer to peer file sharing right now, however within enough time and work it will eventually become one of the ultimate technologies used for things like that.

The reason? It was designed from the ground up, to be entirely unmonitorable. You can't tell what it's sending, where it's really being sent to, or any number of things. All you know is packet A full of heavily encrypted content is going to destination B. Not whether that's it's final destination, whether it was requested or just part of their caching algorythm, etc.

It's made to overcome just about any hurdle legal or technological and the fact it can make it through the great firewall of china is proof of its resiliance if even the chinese government cannot stop it.

 

[fantasiser]

There will -_=ALWAYS=_- be warez, no matter what they do. The more sophisticated countermeasures become, the more sophisticated the warez kiddies will get. Have ISP's tracking everyones move? ever heard of encryption??? Theyll be able to see you downloaded x bytes for x location but not what the hell it was, it wouldnt help. Even if they figured that part out th warez guys will set-up their own ISPs, or distribute it differently ie Bali so that you dont need to download it.
The severity, risk, and availability of warez may change, but it will always be there

 

[Janet Reno]

I love Valve!!! Ban the tards! Gabe really is a mang of the people!

 

[Janet Reno]

When i go on a warez site and read about it i dont see how this can stop anyone...the game doesnt run through steam or a steam account, it does'nt connect to steam, it does'nt use a CD-key...this is just a scare tactic to make the dumb people think they'll get banned and make them buy it instead.

This isn't true. Go back to your warez site forums, there are people posting that they were disabled.

 

[miked4o7]

Just think of it this way... there's no doubt that valve would make a hell of alot more money on hl2 one way or another if there was no piracy, or if the level of piracy was greatly reduced. By pirating the game, you're contributing to the problem... and directly or indirectly, depending on how you look at it, depriving valve of money that they worked hard to earn.

Now valve, even you pirates have to admit, is not stingy about the percentage of their profits that they're willing to pump into their games. The more money valve makes on hl2, the more it will pump into the development of hl3. No matter how indirect it may seem... you are f***ing with half-life as a series when you pirate... and that's what pisses me off about pirating.

 

[Prone]

This isn't true. Go back to your warez site forums, there are people posting that they were disabled.

You actually have no idea, right. Don't be a sucker for lies that your god VALVe tells you. There are more than one version...

@Dragoro, you must be the most idiotic person ever to terrorize the forums of halflife2.net...

Btw: I got two versions of HL2 for review purposes, the key to pre-load and the retail. The problems with the activation and steam just can't be "discussed" away. Those kill the last % to 100% for us journalists, simple as that. I'd gladly give the game 100% but not this way. All one package (graphics, sound etc. combined with installation and actually playing the game).

 

[miked4o7]

Btw: I got two versions of HL2 for review purposes, the key to pre-load and the retail. The problems with the activation and steam just can't be "discussed" away. Those kill the last % to 100% for us journalists, simple as that. I'd gladly give the game 100% but not this way. All one package (graphics, sound etc. combined with installation and actually playing the game).

Who do you review for? Also, I've been sending out e-mails to my favorite review sites with a suggestion so I'll go ahead and make it to you also. I think that reviews for games nowadays should be broken up and should have single player and multiplayer scores listed seperately. It really would give us gamers a better idea of what to expect from a game.

For example, I had a difficult time deciding whether or not to buy painkiller because I wanted a really good mp, deathmatch game at the time, but it's hard to decipher just how good the mp component of a game is when there's no numerical score to judge it against other mp games.

Also, it would give games credit that deserve it and not give games more credit than they deserve. I don't think that an excellent mp game should be given the same score as a mediocre mp game simply because the mediocre game comes with an equally mediocre sp while the excellent game has no sp. It goes the other way around too obviously.

Sorry for the rant...

 

[Prone]

miked, some of the mags I write for are in my sig. And we have a seperate SP and MP score so...

 

[miked4o7]

miked, some of the mags I write for are in my sig. And we have a seperate SP and MP score so...

Then you can expect me to make an attempt to refer to the mags you write for as much as possible. Thanks for doing that... most publications don't and I never understood why.

 

[Prone]

Are you German or can speak German? Except for gamesTM UK I write German as I am German (a lot of German in one sentence )

 

[Alig]

This isn't true. Go back to your warez site forums, there are people posting that they were disabled.

I'd show you the website and quote the entire NFO and user comments if i needed to proove something but i don't because i know the 4 different HL2 warez on the site i visit (not the one beginning with S) don't require steam on your computer. I'm not saying i've got HL2 warezed but i still know how it works as i downloaded it for a mate and put it on his NO-internet connection computer.

 

[Clavius]

i downloaded it for a mate and put it on his NO-internet connection computer.

How infinitely funny too see people always put disclaimers in their posts. "but I've got the retail" "Had no other choice, because..." "my credit card wouldnt work"
Cracks me out every time! :bounce:

 

[Jugdra]

now tell me how you think valve can track nonsteam warez?

With a permanently offline PC, no chance. Put a warezed copy on the same PC as a valid Steam account and it's easy, wouldn't even require a scan of your HDD, there go your valid HL/CZ games etc etc.

 

[HunterSeeker]

No matter what you say, pirating software is wrong unless it is abandonware, and thats the only valid reason IMO.