Valve Responds to L4D 2 Criticism

[alpha incipiens]

I think asking for it to be free is self-entitled, yes.

However, it's like you have this cheese burger with alright tasting beef, so in order to make the cheese burger taste better, they are taking the same cheese burger and covering it with lots of mayo, pickles, and mustard.

I don't think mayo, pickles, and mustard is what the cheeseburger needed. So I am not inclined to eat it.

I think it is more like you still have the first cheeseburger and you want to finish enjoying this cheeseburger before you buy another cheeseburger that is exactly the same but with mayo, pickles, and mustard on it.


But in real life guys I am not unhappy about L4D2 and I think it looks nice and I really like mustard, so it is okay

 

[Lobster]

60'000 'people' signed a petition last year because they found Diablo III to be to colorful... people have alot of time to moan about meaningless shit, I dunno where they find it.

Edit: Acctully ignore that, I tend to counter-whine to much about these things, its hypocritical of me.

 

[chimpmunk]

I think it is more like you still have the first cheeseburger and you want to finish enjoying this cheeseburger before you buy another cheeseburger that is exactly the same but with mayo, pickles, and mustard on it.

But that analogy is somewhat fallacious as it's not like VALVE are going to delete everyone's L4D and "force" them to buy L4D2. If you enjoy L4D, keep playing it!

 

[Absinthe]

Although Left 4 dead 2 may be a little too similar to the original to stand as its own sequal (despite applaudable new features like melee weapons, new creatures, survivors), its more or less the AMOUNT of new content it has, rather than the ACTUAL content itself, that makes it worth the 50 bucks and frankly, thats a lot of resources and money valve is using to make content that some lunatics think should be free. Valve should get something back, thus they bundle it together and charge ya for a new game, its only fair. it wouldnt be fair for valve if they are producing so much extra content and getting nothing in return except our charming comments over teh internets...

Btw, that analogy had fail all over it...

Valve has said they see new sales every time they make one of their free updates. It's worked out well for them.

Unless they're BS'ing.

 

[Krynn72]

people who buy games expecting TF2 style DLC support when 99% of other games dont do that, are nieve. Free updates are a bonus and not included in the money you pay for the box, if you base your purchase on magical content that may or may not come, then you set yourself up for disappointment.

But when the developers themselves say that they're going to be providing TF2 style DLC, then its not much of a stretch to believe that they'll be providing TF2 style DLC.

 

[FoxFire]

"Looking back, was the Orange Box a ripoff?" He said, on initial complaints at having to "buy" Half-Life 2 again in the compilation. "Give us a fair shake on this, read more about it, find out about it, we've already let people play it [at E3]... After that, if you want to vent, post to the forums. We do read them, we read all the forums."

I don't see how a box that came with 5 games (3 new games if you already owned the other 2) for $50 compares to an updated version of L4D at the same price.

Not trying to knock L4D2 or anything, but the criticisms against L4D2 are a little more legitimate then the complaints against having to re-purchase HL2 + Episode 1.

 

[Otto-Grainer]

Hmm, yeah, Valve have already said this numerous times. I'm not sure what the big discovery is.
Are the people joining that group not looking into anything? They really want a 20+ GB game growing
for free? Who do they think is being greedy now? Are they a bunch of six year-olds or something?


I'm really confused here.

 

[SirNuke]

To say off the bat, I'm not going to boycott L4D 2009 out of spite. When it comes out, I'll consider the price and content, and make my purchase accordingly. I won't make the mistake of believing L4D 2009 will receive new post-release content, explicitly promised or implied, but I'm not going to not purchase just to make a point. I don't imagine jumping for L4D 2009 at full price, but I'll wait until I know more about the game to make a decision. Lastly, I haven't joined that group, for obvious reasons.

That said, I'm not particularly happy with how Valve has treated L4D 2008. It's certainly been much better supported than how most developers/publishers act, but I don't compare Valve's actions to the standards of other developers. I compare them to how Valve has acted in the past, and for better or worse, their gold standard for multiplayer games is TF2.

Before L4D 2008's release, Valve explicitly stated that it would receive TF2 style post-release content (say what you want about the video, this doesn't get much more explicit). So far the updates to L4D 2008 that don't fit in the context of the original game (so excluding the additional two versus campaigns, bug fixes, balance tweaks, etc) is survival mode. Survival mode, however, pales on comparison to pretty much every content update TF2 has received; it's sloppy (half the maps don't make any sense at all, though admittedly there is a technical reason behind this), it brings out the worst in L4D's gameplay, and it isn't that big (the Last Stand is the only new map, and it really isn't that great once the novelty wears off).

I'm not necessarily angry or unhappy that Valve is making a sequel, or that they are releasing it so soon (though it will cause a nasty split in the community). It's not like it's going to prevent me from playing L4D 2008. I am annoyed, however, that you can't argue that L4D 2009's development hasn't cannibalized possible content updates to L4D 2008. Additionally, I think the writings on the wall as well, we aren't going to be seeing content updates to L4D 2008. Given L4D 2008's post-release treatment, I doubt L4D 2009 will see post-release content updates either.

I don't know if entitled is a good word to describe how I feel, but I do feel lied to. Valve's reputation has taken a non-trivial hit from this whole fiasco. I suspect no matter how well L4D 2009 sells, it will end up being a very bad move on Valve's part in the long run.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Hmm, yeah, they've already said this numerous times. I'm not sure what the big discovery is. Are the people joining that group not looking into anything? They really want a 20+ GB game growing for free? Who do they think is being greedy now?

Huh, the game is only 5 gig. People are not being greedy it's just that they did expect some small updates at least i'm not counting survival mode. But look at CS:S,TF2, HL2: DM they all got new maps etc. L4D has had none.

 

[Otto-Grainer]

Yes they have, they just gave you Survival mode and soon more, after the community completely thrails it with theirs as well. It is roughly twenty GigaBytes if you count the amount Left 4 Dead 2 is, then Left 4 Dead 1 (7.5GB actually) and then the estimated added amount for both. Might be 18 instead.


Well put, SirNuke.

 

[Eejit]

It's like if Peter Jackson had announced he was going to release The Two Towers before releasing the Special Edition DVD of The Fellowship of the Ring with all the extra scenes he promised. It's that gorram serious guys. I'm considering whether to write my MP.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Yes they have, they just gave you Survival mode and soon more, after the community completely thrails it with theirs as well. It is roughly twenty GigaBytes if you count the amount Left 4 Dead 2 is, then Left 4 Dead 1 (7.5GB actually) and then the estimated added amount for both. Might be 18 instead.


Well put, SirNuke.

Well my L4D folder is 5 gig so i haven't a clue when you got the extra 2.5gigs. L4D and L4D2 are 2 separate games so you can't them both up.

 

[MJ12]

I don't see how a box that came with 5 games (3 new games if you already owned the other 2) for $50 compares to an updated version of L4D at the same price.

Not trying to knock L4D2 or anything, but the criticisms against L4D2 are a little more legitimate then the complaints against having to re-purchase HL2 + Episode 1.

Lol this.

 

[Kinslayer]

It's like if Peter Jackson had released The Two Towers before the Special Edition DVD of The Fellowship of the Ring with all the extra scenes he promised. It's that gorram serious guys. I'm considering whether to write my MP.

Except The Two Towers contained all-new maps, new characters, new weapons, new enemies, a new storyline (or a continuation of the storyline at least), new music, and new sounds.

Not just reskins + horribly done banjo music + bad voice acting.

Oh, can't forget overpowered melee weapons. Gotta include that. That'll really make the game fun for those of us who think melee is ridiculous already.

 

[leib10]

As I've stated before, I'm against the game's design and marketing, not the fact that it's not being released as free DLC. Valve's given us plenty of free stuff that probably wasn't cheap to develop, so their decision to have L4D2 as a standalone game that we have to pay for doesn't irk me. What does is the game's direction, in that it might be taking the series a step too far towards the ridiculous. That's the reason that I might not buy it- because of a potential lack of quality in the game itself rather than on principle.

I don't see why people are still ranting about this though. L4D2 is coming whether you like it or not, so either buy it or don't buy it for whatever reason you deem important. Go ahead and join your boycott groups, it won't make a difference in the end and it only makes you look like a spoiled moron. I bet you only half of the people joined because of the lack of Episode Three info (which, granted, pissed me off too).

 

[Top Secret]

The (scoff) 'boycott' group - a true assortment of ignorant and uninformed tools,

Do you disagree that Valve said L4D would receive additional content in the form of Movies, Characters, Weapons, and monsters?

with some very serious entitlement issues.

I paid for the game with the knowledge that I would receive the above stated additional content after the game had been released (along with the SDK three weeks post launch).

Also, I have stated that I would be willing to pay for the DLC.

Reasonable argument and valid complaints and concerns have been dismissed;

No, they haven't. Feel free to show me where all of these facts have been refuted. Did Valve, in fact, not say that we would receive all of this content? Content that "Left 4 Dead 2" composes entirely of?

we are now dealing with a group of people that have deviated so far from the original point of contention that they wholeheartedly believe in the wanton trash they are putting in place of reason and sense.

You managed to say quite a bit without refuting anything.

 

[Otto-Grainer]

Well my L4D folder is 5 gig so i haven't a clue when you got the extra 2.5gigs. L4D and L4D2 are 2 separate games so you can't them both up.

Oh, really? My one in steamapps\common\left 4 dead (excluding languages) tells differently and I haven't even downloaded custom content.
Sorry about that....

 

[Top Secret]

Mine is 4.79 gigs. Yours is large, I am guessing, because your folder includes the core engine (Orange Box I believe). Do you not have Orange Box installed? I am fairly certain the games share the same engine "download". Left 4 Dead is 5 gigs, plus the 2 or so that Source engine games share.

 

[Danimal]

Valve is already treating those mother****ing backstabbers too well. If I were them, I'd just delete the ****ing group as soon as it reached 5000 ******s.

Thank **** you don't run Valve's PR department. LOL

 

[DoctorWeeTodd]

All reasonable criticism aside (whether it's valid or not) the "fans" that have this sickening sense of entitlement over them can go suck a whole bunch of dicks.

Considering the fans give them money for their games, they should be entitled to their opinion.

 

[Asus]

I understand where people are coming up with the idea that L4D would be supported after the launch of the game to the same extent as Valve's other games. But the game was developed by Turtle Rock prior to Valve picking them up, right? So things may be different right? I do think it was announced too soon though.

Saying that they "will do DLC like TF2" may not be the same thing as saying they "will do DLC to the same level of support that was done in TF2" because the first could be simply describing the type of DLC without going into specifics (this new map or this new feature) and not saying to what extent the support will be...which is what everyone may have assumed.

 

[CyberPitz]

I love people who are talking about "Oh, you say people who complain are backstabbers, we have VALID RIGHTS blah blah blah blah*

Seriously? You're "valid" rights are just a bunch of whining. "WAAAAH ITS NOT FREE AND IT SHOULD BE WAAAH"

What makes you think anything that Valve have given you are "should be free" updates? The ONLY company, that does this? Man, you guys are spoiled brats. Get your head out of your asses and just DON'T buy the game, and learn how to use the SDK and make GOOD community maps. Quit bitching about a company, that needs profit to survive, making a game sooner than your non-professional expectations.

 

[TwwIX]

Saying that they "will do DLC like TF2" may not be the same thing as saying they "will do DLC to the same level of support that was done in TF2" because the first could be simply describing the type of DLC without going into specifics (this new map or this new feature) and not saying to what extent the support will be...which is what everyone may have assumed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u4rNH9cqIM

He was actually quite specific about it.


Anyway, nobody is asking it to be free besides a few spoiled brats.
Those people are a minority in this group. They, however, do not represent the majority of us. It's a public group after all and everybody is free to voice their opinion.
Th majority of us "entitled whiners" actually expect this installment to be combined with the current game and sold to us as an expansion pack.
At a reasonable price, of course.
How any of that is considered whiny and demanding behavior, is beyond me.
But hey, continue with your raging and baseless bashing if it makes you feel superior.

 

[Asus]

He was actually quite specific about it.

He seemed to just list what came to his head.
When the guy in that video asks if they can forecast any specific content. Doug says "I think...probably...most likely" and then says "maybe a new campaign and maybe some new weapons and monsters to go with the campaign."
Not a real for sure answer. Not something I would write down as a promise.

What is this? 2 campaigns!
And it is free?!

And do you know what is yet to come out for L4D?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

From what's been released so far, I'm not buying L4D2. They've got a considerable amount of convincing to do.

 

[Apsalus]

He seemed to just list what came to his head.
When the guy in that video asks if they can forecast any specific content. Doug says "I think...probably...most likely" and then says "maybe a new campaign and maybe some new weapons and monsters to go with the campaign."
Not a real for sure answer. Not something I would write down as a promise.

What is this? 2 campaigns!
And it is free?!

And do you know what is yet to come out for L4D?

Anyone with an iota of sense would call Death Toll and Dead Air VS part of the full game. They're aren't "bonus content." They aren't "extras." They were missing from the game at launch. Survival mode is the only "extra" that we've seen, as pale as it is. Announcing the sequel to the game has been in development since two months after the first one shipped and not mentioning a word about real, extra content (regardless of whether or not it's being worked on) for the first game doesn't make a lot of people happy, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[SirNuke]

Say what you want about the video, but Gabe made it quite clear Valve was going to do TF2 style updates to L4D.

In roughly the same amount of time it took Valve to release the survival pack, TF2 has seen Badlands, CTF Well, Gold Rush, and the medic pack. I don't consider the two versus campaigns to be much of a post-release update (since they probably should have been in the game from the beginning), and survivor mode is pretty lackluster compared to say the medic pack.

To clarify one thing, many people (including myself) are not necessarily unhappy that Valve is making L4D 2009 or that they are releasing it so soon (though are legitimate complaints about this), but what this entails for L4D 2008. The post-release updates, so far, might be considered exception by the average developer/publisher's standards, but we hold Valve to Valve's standards. And by Valve's standards (specifically TF2), it's pretty lackluster.

At this point, it seems unlikely to me that we are going to see much additional content for L4D 2008.

 

[Apsalus]

Say what you want about the video, but Gabe made it quite clear Valve was going to do TF2 style updates to L4D.

Wow, nice find.

 

[Asus]

Anyone with an iota of sense would call Death Toll and Dead Air VS part of the full game. They're aren't "bonus content." They aren't "extras." They were missing from the game at launch. Survival mode is the only "extra" that we've seen, as pale as it is. Announcing the sequel to the game has been in development since two months after the first one shipped and not mentioning a word about real, extra content (regardless of whether or not it's being worked on) for the first game doesn't make a lot of people happy, in case you haven't noticed.

I haven't played L4D so I don't know what you might consider part of the game already or not. But the update I linked to said specifically "2 campaigns" so I guess Valve thinks they gave ya 2 campaigns even though you may think it was just some dust. I don't know what updates could still be coming for L4D.

But really, you shouldn't buy a game based off of what someone says might happen. Even a Valve game.
I got TF2 right away. I didn't buy it because of the changes and additions that were soon going to be coming. I got it for that MP game that was shipped as of launch and the community as of launch. The additions were bonus to someone who already had the game and incentive to those who didn't. If anyone is complaining about lack of content for L4D it should be Valve and their flat sales because of fewer new players. You knew what was in the game at the time when you handed over your money.

Things change before they get released because they are always getting reworked. Maybe they stop short of what they seemed like they were doing. And maybe you loose trust in them because you bet on it. But don't we know not to trust things that have not yet come (like release dates).

 

[DEATHMASTER]

lol rage game http://www.yoyogames.com/games/launch/84047

and vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWylFmqnwM

 

[Top Secret]

I copied this post from the one in the L4D2 section. They are essentially the same topic now. (Combine?? or no?)

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23911

Valve not committing to any new L4D1 content:

Leonard declined to commit to there being more Valve-created content for the game, instead pointing out some upcoming functionality tweaks and the potential in user-created levels for the PC version. "We are doing updates across the summer, adding new matchmaking features, and new features to facilitate user maps after the SDK is out," he said. "Certainly, user maps will be part of the ongoing Left 4 Dead 1 experience."

 

[leib10]

From what's been released so far, I'm not buying L4D2. They've got a considerable amount of convincing to do.

Me neither. I really don't feel like shelling out $50 for a game that, for the most part, is essentially the same as the first but with a few relatively minor tweaks, some of them kind of lame. I just can't understand why there's so much outrage over this, although I am going to feel a bit cheated if a lot of support for L4D1 is cut once the sequel is released.

 

[Inanimate]

I think the general feeling of "disappointment" was that they announced a L4D-sequel only 6 months after the first one. What people didn't realize was that it's not coming tomorrow, it's coming after a total of 12 months, which is quite alot afterall considering there's only 4 campaigns out there.

The idea of suddenly playing L4D, which got famous for its awesome leveldesign and darkness, in broad daylight obviously scared some people.
To be honest, when looking at the leveldesign of the sequel, I'm all but impressed. However, it's 6 months before release, I'm sure alot will happen.

Another thing that probably bummed people out was that EP3 wasn't announced, which people were hoping for alot more.
It is quite funny like someone said, that if they don't release games fast enough, people whine, if they release them too quick, people whine.

This boycott was just an idiotic thing to do, and it's basicly a ****ing slap in the face when you work your ass off to please the customers, and has done so for over 10 years.

 

[Apsalus]

I haven't played L4D so I don't know what you might consider part of the game already or not. But the update I linked to said specifically "2 campaigns" so I guess Valve thinks they gave ya 2 campaigns even though you may think it was just some dust. I don't know what updates could still be coming for L4D.

Wow. Really? You have to try it. It's a blast when you play with friends or even just a bunch of pubstars that are using mics by chance.

But really, you shouldn't buy a game based off of what someone says might happen. Even a Valve game.
I got TF2 right away. I didn't buy it because of the changes and additions that were soon going to be coming. I got it for that MP game that was shipped as of launch and the community as of launch. The additions were bonus to someone who already had the game and incentive to those who didn't. If anyone is complaining about lack of content for L4D it should be Valve and their flat sales because of fewer new players. You knew what was in the game at the time when you handed over your money.

I bought it because it looked ****ing awesome. I feel that it is $50 very well spent. It has given me many hours of quality entertainment. I was a bit sore about waiting for the unfinished Versus maps, but they were worth waiting for. Really, VS play is what makes the game and receiving the full game with two out of the four campaigns playable in VS wasn't a very nice surprise.

Things change before they get released because they are always getting reworked. Maybe they stop short of what they seemed like they were doing. And maybe you loose trust in them because you bet on it. But don't we know not to trust things that have not yet come (like release dates).

Don't forget that this game is also a part of Microsoft's Xbox Live service. If Valve said that they wanted to keep it alive by adding more content down the line and with MS hosting the updates free of charge to the players (very rare for XBL as far as I know), they would likely expect Valve to keep their end of the bargain.

 

[StarBob]

It's kind of "apples and oranges" to compare Orange Box and Left 4 Dead 2. I mean if Left 4 Dead 2 comes with Left 4 Dead and then delivers high quality content in the form of three excellent games. That's the actual problem, just like no one would have wanted to pay full price for HL2 Episode 2, no one wants to pay full price for the amount of content announced. Sure it may change if they announce some more additions, but less than six months really isn't a lot of development time considering a chunk of it will be polishing and distribution. They could be keeping things hidden, but considering the backlash I don't know if it's the best idea.

I hope for the sake of Valve's reputation alone that they offer something high quality. I mean we paid $50 for Orange Box for what could have easily cost $200 in separate packages... but I don't really want to pay $50 for a $20-$30 expansion...

 

[Naph]

Sod off Valve...



olene

 

[Top Secret]

I think the general feeling of "disappointment" was that they announced a L4D-sequel only 6 months after the first one. What people didn't realize was that it's not coming tomorrow, it's coming after a total of 12 months, which is quite alot afterall considering there's only 4 campaigns out there.

Actually, it's ten months.

Another thing that probably bummed people out was that EP3 wasn't announced, which people were hoping for alot more.

Don't really care about EP3 to be honest. Never even beat EP2. =/ (Though I plan to this weekend)

This boycott was just an idiotic thing to do, and it's basicly a ****ing slap in the face when you work your ass off to please the customers, and has done so for over 10 years.

No, sir. The slap in the face is when your promised free DLC content shows up with a fifty dollar price tag in a brand new box.

I am a capitalist, I know Valve needs to make money. I am willing to pay for their work. But this work was already paid for in terms of L4D1. You could argue that L4D2 is more content than L4D1 would have reasonably had in terms of DLC - and I would agree with you. But the difference is NOT $50 dollars. It's half that, at most.

 

[flamingdts]

People should ask themselves:
The age difference between L4D and the orange box
Of all games, would you have expected L4D2 with both teaser and gameplay trailer revealed, or a HL2 ep 3 teaser or portal 2?

In my humble opinion, I rather valve spend more time on portal 2 or HL2 ep3 rather than a L4D2, which is a year older than the first only.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

I'm actually going to give Valve the benefit of the doubt on this one. With the exception of a few missteps (namely CS:CZ), I've really got no major qualms with any full priced title they've launched since I've become a loyal customer of theirs. The way they are responding shows they still obviously care about the way their core audience perceives them, and they've remained cool headed and professional in the face of what could easily have set them over the edge like so many other developers.

I'll take heed and see if L4D2 seems compelling enough a product by the time it's approaching launch and if it is, I'll bite. If not, it's still beyond silly to antagonize Valve merely for approaching a sequel within a timeline you believe to be unacceptable.

L4D2 will sell very well, and I'll probably buy it eventually. Like Doug mentioned before (and I'll admit, he's not always the most well spoken or disarming man when it comes to PR men) Valve is a company that has never genuinely failed to deliver, and I sincerely doubt this will be an exception.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised as a reaction to all the Buzz from the forum ragers they announced some extra goodies for L4D2 buyers (especially with the comparison to Orange Box being made)

 

[Darkside55]

"...post to the forums. We do read them, we read all the forums."

Gabe. Gabe. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabe.

'Sup?