Virginia Tech Shootings - Gun Debate

[repiV]

Continuing on from the earlier thread in off-topic...

To some extent I'd agree with what you're saying, I think poverty plays a large role in causing such things also.
I myself went to a very working class school in the center of Burnley, there was a large racist sentiment there, Burnley has alot of BNP supporters you see. The school 10 years back was a mess, people were going in, getting taught by crap teachers, the school system failed them, they left schooling at 16 with no GCSE's and many went into a life of crime and whatnot. Thankfully, the school has improved massively when I was there, now it seems medeling bureaucrats have forced it to close and merge with another school causing all the teachers to leave and setting the local education back 10 years, but I suppose the money invested looks good in the labour manifesto ey?

When kids go up in crime filled areas and what not, they're more likely to turn to crime.

Certainly, poverty and crime have a strong correlation. I would stop short of saying that the poverty itself causes crime. Again, I think it all comes down to values, upbringing, and a good social framework.
Our society has a great degree of class mobility, although I hate to use the term since I think the concept of class is irrelevant today - so the social framework is there.
Kids who grow up in poverty need to be inspired and shown that if they work hard and take advantage of the opportunities they do have, they will be able to make a better life for themselves. Often the attitude seems to be "well it was like this for my parents, and it's like this for me now, why bother?", envy of and aggression towards people more privileged than themselves.
It all comes down to mindset. When combined with the right attitude, growing up in poverty can actually be a very valuable experience. I had a horrific childhood, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. It taught me perserverance, resilience and tenacity and got me where I am today.

 

[CptStern]

meh I'll throw this in from the other thread but I really dont want to continue this debate because for the most part gun advocates are unreasonable ..no amount of facts will pry their guns from their hands ..only death's icy grip will do that (**** you chuck heston)

Yes, the crime rates are not equal - the amount of gun crime, respectively, is way off compared to the percentage of households that own guns. As I said, a bad society always blames its tools.

again we're talking specifically about gun related homicides ..there's well over 500,000 incidents yearly where a gun was involved yet there was no homicide

The only guns that private citizens can legally own in this country are shotguns, for farming etc. use which require a license.

same as in canada ..most crimes are commited with handguns, handguns are prohibited

Nobody in somewhere like London owns a gun legally - which again just supports my point that despite there being shitloads more guns in Toronto than London, London has a higher gun crime rate.

no that's not really true ..in gun related homicide the two cities are close in stats as long as you adjust for population ..30 odd a year in toronto and anywhere from 50-70 in london

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...omicide_year_051227/20051227/?hub=TorontoHome

Because it's a cultural issue, and the UK is a much more violent and dysfunctional society than Canada. For many reasons irrelevant to the topic at hand.

it's about the same factoring in population differences

 

[Solaris]

Stern, I do actually think RepriV is advocating legalising handguns in the UK, more so pointing out how silly policies such as 'Gun Free Zones' are in America. They just mean that criminals can go to a mall in full knowledge they will be the only one with a gun and can kill as many as they want.

 

[Geogaddi]

As much as I dislike guns, I dislike government control over this sort of thing even more.

 

[repiV]

meh I'll throw this in from the other thread but I really dont want to continue this debate because for the most part gun advocates are unreasonable ..no amount of facts will pry their guns from their hands ..only death's icy grip will do that (**** you chuck heston)

Suits me. Stereotyping the millions/billions of people who hold a perfectly valid political viewpoint isn't exactly condusive to fruitful discussion.

 

[No Limit]

I am all for laws that say you can't have a 50 cal machine gun mounted in your back yard.

But I just don't see how you can ever get rid of guns. And as long as criminals will have those guns I think lawful citizens should be able to posses them with proper documentation for their own protection.

 

[BeenJumpin]

It's pretty hard to overthrow a government that has all the guns

 

[CptStern]

Suits me. Stereotyping the millions/billions of people who hold a perfectly valid political viewpoint isn't exactly condusive to fruitful discussion.

hey I answered your last points ..and how am I stereotyping? in my experience most gun advocates are unreasonable ..obviously you have to see the context behind the statement ..which is obvious if ask me. I'm sure there's plenty of reasonable gun advocates ..they just dont tend to argue with me because they may agree with a point or two ..the diehards (cold icy grip of death kind) are the ones you couldnt move an inch no matter how persuasive the evidence

 

[Ennui]

I think guns should be illegal. Saying that that infringes upon ones's right to defend themselves is like saying that a ban on crack cocaine is unjustified because it violates one's right to be addicted to and die as a result of crack.

There are plenty of ways to defend yourself that don't involve guns. It's a matter of scale... guns are simply too dangerous to be widely available, sort of like rocket launchers. The facts speak clearly... a ban on guns reduces gun-related murders.

You do understand that when there's a gun in someone's home, rather than being protected, they're more likely to be murdered in the event of a robbery? Guns kill people, period, and they aren't picky about who they kill.

 

[IonizeMyAtoms]

There`s really no reason whatsoever that any person should have a gun. Period. I`m not even going to bother coming back into this thread because gun nuts freak me out.

 

[FieryGoose]

Why would you want to make guns illegal just because a few people dislike them doesn't mean the right answer is making them illegal. In fact it is absurd to do so, how is my/your grandpa going to defend his wife when someone comes to hurt her, with his years of kung fu experience and superb agility? If a criminal really wants to kill someone they'll find a way. Making guns illegal isn't going to significantly lower homocides, It will obviously lower gun homocides but that's just because it's in most cases easier to kill a person with a gun than with a knife. Are we going to ban cars next because they have just as much potential to kill someone as a gun does? I realize it is not a vehicles main function to kill but it could be considered too dangerous to be released into the public. If someone comes into your house and wants to hurt you, your wife or your kids, and you don't have a gun and they do, your going to wish you did. At the most i think everyone who has a gun should be required to attend firearm safety class, so for those of us who don't plan on killing people know how to keep accidents from happening.

 

[Murray_H]

In fact it is absurd to do so, how is my grandpa going to defend his wife when someone comes to hurt her, with his years of kung fu experience and superb agility?

When? If you're so sure he's going to get hurt, tell the police now!

What about when he has to open the safe the gun is stored in and then load it, cock it, aim it, pull the trigger, aim again because he missed and shot the microwave...a gun is not an adequate subsitution for kung fu skills. Train him now.

 

[tehsolace]

I think the general public should only be allowed non-lethal weapons like stun guns or bean-bag shotguns or baseball bats.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

yeah about the bats...
either way many things can be used as weapons. But yeah firearms with the sheer capacity to do it so easily should be off the streets.

 

[BeenJumpin]

I have a friend who teaches gun safety classes three nights a week. He has a few hand guns and a rifle in his house. Although he doesn't keep any ammo in his house, he's still a real menace to society. I mean, he's never harmed any and poses absolutely no threat, but dam, people like him really should be locked away in prison for a few years. Now if only we could make what he's doing a crime. He just doesn't deserve to be part of society anymore.

 

[Tyguy]

its a hard topic. Obviously there wont be a ban anytime soon, yet i dont think it should be as easy as it is to own a firearm.

 

[Direwolf]

Not exactly sure what most of this has to do with the shootings, especially since as far as I'm aware they've released nothing about the shooter, his weapons, their legality, and his motive.

For my two cents, I'm always wary of legislating laws against something for the sake of protecting the public from itself. I don't think that gun deaths are really something that laws can solve, or maybe even should. It does however seem to be a fairly important social issue, and I think it should be addressed as that.

Declaring them illegal seems like it might bring about many of the same problems we saw with prohibition, and today's war on drugs. Making something harmful illegal can lead to just as much harm.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I have a friend who teaches gun safety classes three nights a week. He has a few hand guns and a rifle in his house. Although he doesn't keep any ammo in his house, he's still a real menace to society. I mean, he's never harmed any and poses absolutely no threat, but dam, people like him really should be locked away in prison for a few years. Now if only we could make what he's doing a crime. He just doesn't deserve to be part of society anymore.

Care to elaborate his menacing views?

 

[FieryGoose]

When? If you're so sure he's going to get hurt, tell the police now!

What about when he has to open the safe the gun is stored in and then load it, cock it, aim it, pull the trigger, aim again because he missed and shot the microwave...a gun is not an adequate subsitution for kung fu skills. Train him now.

Yea i guess your right i must start up a dojo for old people, they are supposed to be the most flexible out of all age groups. Sign yours up too...
But i really don't understand how making guns illegal is going to decrease crime rates, I'm pretty sure that when allowing concealed weapons in Texas crime rates decreased.

" When criminals suspect that the costs of committing a crime will be too high, they are less likely to commit it. The possibility of a concealed weapon tilts the odds in favor of the potential victim. Studies have shown that rape victims who resist with a gun are only half as likely to be injured as those who do not resist.

In More Guns, Less Crime (1998), the University of Chicago's John Lott examined the impact of concealed carry permits. Using data from all 3,054 U.S. counties between 1977 and 1992, he found that after controlling for other factors:

* Concealed handgun laws reduce murder by 8.5 percent, rape by 5 percent and severe assault by 7 percent. [See Figure II.]

* Had right-to-carry prevailed throughout the country, there would have been 1,600 fewer murders, 4,200 fewer rapes and 60,000 fewer severe assaults.

These reductions are beyond the general decline in crime rates that the U.S. has experienced during the past eight years.

In the early 1990s, Texas' serious crime rate was 38 percent above the national average. Since then serious crime in Texas has dropped 50 percent faster than for the nation as a whole. For example, during the 1990s Texas' murder rate dropped 52 percent compared to 33 percent nationally, and the rape rate fell by 22 percent compared to 16 percent nationally. In light of Lott's research, it is likely that Texas' concealed carry law has contributed to the declining crime rates. "

^Deathmaster I think he was being sarcastic...

 

[Ennui]

There`s really no reason whatsoever that any person should have a gun. Period. I`m not even going to bother coming back into this thread because gun nuts freak me out.

lol. :cheers:

Why would you want to make guns illegal just because a few people dislike them doesn't mean the right answer is making them illegal.

A few points: I doubt anyone in their right mind actually likes guns, and we're not saying that they should be illegal because they make us uncomfortable, we're saying they should be illegal because they tend to cause people to kill each other, and I think we can both agree that's not a very good thing.

In fact it is absurd to do so, how is my/your grandpa going to defend his wife when someone comes to hurt her, with his years of kung fu experience and superb agility?

Statistically speaking, both he and his wife are less likely to be killed if he's unarmed. Buy a tazer or something. Seriously, Grandpa is going to go for his gun and either get killed in the process or accidentally shoot his wife. An old man isn't much of a threat to a criminal... but if he has a gun, he becomes one, and all of a sudden the criminal feels that he must be eliminated for personal safety.

If a criminal really wants to kill someone they'll find a way.

Two things. One, most criminals who end up killing people don't really intend to, but it just happens in the heat of the moment or on accident or because the other person is trying to defend themselves with lethal force and so the criminal has to respond in kind. Secondly, in the rare event that it's a criminal who DOES want to kill someone, we shouldn't make it easier for them to do so... seriously, think about it, we don't give high explosives to insurgents or terrorists, but they kill people anyway. It's minimization of fatal gun violence (and violence in general) not elimination.

Making guns illegal isn't going to significantly lower homocides, It will obviously lower gun homocides but that's just because it's in most cases easier to kill a person with a gun than with a knife.

Go look at the statistics surrounding the situation and come back and maybe you'll feel a wee bit silly for factually stating something that's simply not true. Also, just reading what you're saying, this statement almost supports gun control if you look at it right.

Are we going to ban cars next because they have just as much potential to kill someone as a gun does? I realize it is not a vehicles main function to kill but it could be considered too dangerous to be released into the public.

The thing is that it's NOT, and guns are.

If someone comes into your house and wants to hurt you, your wife or your kids, and you don't have a gun and they do, your going to wish you did.

Think about it realistically. First, people with murderous intent don't generally break into houses in the middle of the night looking to kill people. Most crime-related gun deaths are not the primary intention of either party. Secondly, if someone has a gun and is hellbent on murdering your entire family, they're probably going to be able to do it whether or not you have a gun... considering they're inside your house pointing a pistol at you, you're groggy, half-asleep, and in bed, confused and seperated from your gun in the shoebox on the floor in the closet by 10 feet, a homicidal maniac waving a gun around (that he would not necessarily be able to get otherwise), and a closed door.

Also, did you know that more family members get accidentally killed by a gun-wielding defender of the household than criminals?

At the most i think everyone who has a gun should be required to attend firearm safety class, so for those of us who don't plan on killing people know how to keep accidents from happening.

Why would you own a gun if you don't want to kill anyone? That's all they're good for, you know.

I have a friend who teaches gun safety classes three nights a week. He has a few hand guns and a rifle in his house. Although he doesn't keep any ammo in his house, he's still a real menace to society. I mean, he's never harmed any and poses absolutely no threat, but dam, people like him really should be locked away in prison for a few years. Now if only we could make what he's doing a crime. He just doesn't deserve to be part of society anymore.

Don't be a douche. No-one's saying that... you're putting words in our mouths and then responding to them in a dick way. The problem here is the guns themselves, not the people who own them.

 

[BeenJumpin]

Don't be a douche. No-one's saying that... you're putting words in our mouths and then responding to them in a dick way. The problem here is the guns themselves, not the people who own them.

That was really rude :/ I'd appreciate an apology (Preferably through PM)

I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth... not sure how you think I did that. I was merely saying that if this were a law, then this individual would be a criminal, which would be a travesty.

The problem here is the guns themselves, not the people who own them.

I'm wondering if you really meant that or not... Personally I've got a bigger problem with the nutjobs who go out and shoot people than I do the inanimate tool

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

I have a friend who teaches gun safety classes three nights a week....Now if only we could make what he's doing a crime. ...

 

[Qonfused]

I'm going to sum up the next ten pages in this thread.

UK people: Ban guns.
Americans: No we like them.
UK people: You barbarians! All guns do are kill people!
Americans: [amendment argument]
UK people: That was written a long time ago, and that doesn't apply now.
Americans: Blah, blah.
UK people: Rednecks.

Etc.

 

[Ennui]

That was really rude :/ I'd appreciate an apology (Preferably through PM)

I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth... not sure how you think I did that. I was merely saying that if this were a law, then this individual would be a criminal, which would be a travesty.

He wouldn't own guns or teach a gun safety class if it were against the law, so it's a non-issue, and it's pretty self-evident how you put words in the mouths of whatever opposition you were responding to.

I'm wondering if you really meant that or not... Personally I've got a bigger problem with the nutjobs who go out and shoot people than I do the inanimate tool

In the context of this debate, I certainly mean what I said. The 'inanimate tool' you speak of serves only the function of destroying other life.

 

[BeenJumpin]

He wouldn't own guns or teach a gun safety class if it were against the law, so it's a non-issue

Well, ya, he wouldn't. Or perhaps it would be better to say that he couldn't... because if he did, he'd be doing something so awful that society would strip him of his rights and send him to prison for a few years... Seems wrong to me.

and it's pretty self-evident how you put words in the mouths of whatever opposition you were responding to.

I apologize if that's how I came across. Certainly not my intention

 

[DeusExMachina]

I don't believe in banning guns.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Gun safety is awful? Hanging intricate tubes of metal on your wall is awful?

Man you are just retarded.

 

[BeenJumpin]

Gun safety is awful? Hanging intricate tubes of metal on your wall is awful?

Man you are just retarded.

If you're talking to me.. you might have gathered from my other posts that I'm against prohibition of guns and that my first post was intended as tongue in cheek.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Man you are on the internet. You have to make things like that obvious. Remember on my end you are nothing but a string of text.

So far it is difficult for me to pinpoint what you think without you just saying it outright like that.

 

[Ennui]

Well, ya, he wouldn't. Or perhaps it would be better to say that he couldn't... because if he did, he'd be doing something so awful that society would strip him of his rights and send him to prison for a few years... Seems wrong to me.

It seems to me like having much tighter gun control laws would be beneficial overall though. In a perfect world no rights would be infringed upon - I certainly get queasy at the idea of taking away someone's rights, but it seems like a good law regardless because the benefits outweigh the negative in my eyes. I assume it would also stand up to a strict scrutiny test, if you could really conclusively show that outlawing guns for citizens would help save lives.

There are a lot of more damning moral parallels to this that already exist in our government... cannabis prohibition etc.

 

[BeenJumpin]

I was half tempted to relate my feelings about this to marijuana laws because they call on really similar sentiments (but with some clear differences). And the good may outweigh the bad. I really don't know. But is making good people like my friend criminals really justifiable? I say make the people who hurt other people go to jail. If you can't do that don't come after me instead

 

[Ennui]

Well the thing is that making the killers go to jail doesn't really help, as evidenced by our current situation. That's fixing the symptoms, not the problem.

I'm also just fundamentally morally opposed to the idea of a gun and I'd prefer to see as few of them as possible.

 

[BeenJumpin]

Well the thing is that making the killers go to jail doesn't really help, as evidenced by our current situation. That's fixing the symptoms, not the problem.

The problem is sociopathic killers. I think fixing that problem is going to take a lot of social evolution and eliminating poverty

I'm also just fundamentally morally opposed to the idea of a gun and I'd prefer to see as few of them as possible.

And a great percent of the population feels the same way about porn and countless other things. Luckily other people not liking something doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it, especially in the privacy of my home.

 

[Ennui]

I doubt that sociopathic killers make up more than 1% of all gun-related deaths

 

[BeenJumpin]

I doubt that sociopathic killers make up more than 1% of all gun-related deaths

And 98% of the rest can be taken care of by making sure gun owners are educated.

But all of this just gets away from my point that a law that makes innocent citizens (i.e my friend) criminals is a bad law. He just isn't doing anything that deems fit of being removed from society.

 

[Ennui]

Education has nothing to do with it if an armed criminal enters your house and shoots you because you point a gun at him, or if you are walking around in the dark trying to find him and shoot your daughter by mistake.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with owning a gun or wanting to defend yourself, but the guns themselves should be illegal. Plus, by that definition, we have a hell of a lot of bad laws. The main distinction here from something like marijuana prohibition is that someone smoking weed isn't hurting anyone else, whereas that's the entire problem with guns.

 

[CptStern]

Why would you want to make guns illegal just because a few people dislike them doesn't mean the right answer is making them illegal. In fact it is absurd to do so, how is my/your grandpa going to defend his wife when someone comes to hurt her, with his years of kung fu experience and superb agility? If a criminal really wants to kill someone they'll find a way. Making guns illegal isn't going to significantly lower homocides, It will obviously lower gun homocides but that's just because it's in most cases easier to kill a person with a gun than with a knife. Are we going to ban cars next because they have just as much potential to kill someone as a gun does? I realize it is not a vehicles main function to kill but it could be considered too dangerous to be released into the public. If someone comes into your house and wants to hurt you, your wife or your kids, and you don't have a gun and they do, your going to wish you did. At the most i think everyone who has a gun should be required to attend firearm safety class, so for those of us who don't plan on killing people know how to keep accidents from happening.

why are so many faithful christians also strong gun proponents? doesnt jebus tell you that if someone tries to break into your house and rape your wife you should also offer up your daughter cuz of that whole "turn the other cheek" thingy?



no, but seriously why do so many christains want to blow criminals away with double barreled, jesus approved, american made instruments of righteous judgement? arent you supposed to love everyone equally? including the rapists, murderers and especially sodomites?

 

[Krynn72]

I am for the banning of guns, because while, yeah they may be fun to some people, they are extremely deadly. People who murder others wont stop shooting people because of some "gun safety" class they took. Id imagine it would make things a bit worse, since they would be more trained.

As for the "good guys wont have guns to fight back" argument... rarely does the "good guy" have his own gun at hand during the incident. I dont recall many murders where both the victim and the murderer shot at each other. Most cases its just a couple shots kills the person before they even realize it.

 

[delusional]

If everyone has guns i doubt anyone would go on a shooting rampage since they would be immediately shot.

And if you ban my guns i'll buy a crossbow and go on my rampage and kill everyone, and once thats banned i'll go on a rampage killing everyone with a sword, and once those are banned i'll go on a rampage killing everyone with a knife, and once those are banned i'll go on a rampage killing everyone with a pencil, and once those are banned i'll go on a rampage killing everyone with my mind, then all everyone's mind will be banned from thinking.

 

[BeenJumpin]

Education has nothing to do with it if an armed criminal enters your house and shoots you because you point a gun at him, or if you are walking around in the dark trying to find him and shoot your daughter by mistake.

Most gun safety classes recommend against both of those

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with owning a gun or wanting to defend yourself, but the guns themselves should be illegal.

Again, that would put my friend in prison, when he clearly belongs no where near one.

Plus, by that definition, we have a hell of a lot of bad laws.

Ha. Hell ya we do.

The main distinction here from something like marijuana prohibition is that someone smoking weed isn't hurting anyone else, whereas that's the entire problem with guns.

Ya. That's why i was reluctant to make the comparison. Although the concerns I have with people being arrested for smoking pot in their house is the exact same I get when I think of my friend being arrested. They just aren't doing anything wrong themselves and shouldn't be punished for it. Innocent people don't belong rotting in jail