Virginia Tech Shootings - Gun Debate

[leib10]

Yep, and it should never be infringed. That being said, I'm glad that machine guns, silencers, and other firearms mentioned by the National Firearms Act (NFA) are tightly regulated and not available to many people. Those are a few things that the ordinary citizen really doesn't need, even though they really are tons of fun.

 

[Jintor]

It's too late to pull them out of your country; guns are embedded into your very souls.

Er, in a sense. Not literal, you understand.

 

[Nemesis6]

Heh, just saw Bowling for Columbine by the blob called Michael Moore, and damn he's nice at portraying the firearms owners as nuts. Even went after Charlton Heston, editing various clips and omitting facts to: A - make him seem like a racist. 2 - Make him seem evil. 3 - Make him seem inconsiderate.

Michael Moore... Heh, his physique is the only argument you need to disprove half of his ideas of American society today. You know, that combined with the fact that he's all-around just a creep making money off the deaths of other people.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Michael Moore... Heh, his physique is the only argument you need to disprove half of his ideas of American society today.

That makes sense.

 

[CptStern]

Heh, just saw Bowling for Columbine by the blob called Michael Moore, and damn he's nice at portraying the firearms owners as nuts. Even went after Charlton Heston, editing various clips and omitting facts to: A - make him seem like a racist. 2 - Make him seem evil. 3 - Make him seem inconsiderate.

but not that he's a nut? he's a nut end of story

Michael Moore... Heh, his physique is the only argument you need to disprove half of his ideas of American society today. You know, that combined with the fact that he's all-around just a creep making money off the deaths of other people.

ahahahahahah but not charelton heston and the NRA? no they're respectful humanitarians that would never even dream of using a tragedy to further their agenda:

http://www.vpc.org/press/0507nra.htm

and his physique automatically makes him wrong? is that just him or all fat people in general?

you sure go out of your way to make yourself look like a fool ..it's actually quite enjoyable mostly because you're too clueless to realise when people are laughing at you not with you

 

[Tyguy]

what the hell do people need assault weapons for in the first place? Hunting!?!? GTFO

 

[CptStern]

what the hell do people need assault weapons for in the first place? Hunting!?!? GTFO

for those times when you simply must spray a forested area with 1000 rounds of hot lead in order to take out a single quail ..that's what for silly ...actually I wouldnt mind if they did use assault rifles during hunting ..great way to thin out the hunter population

spray & pray = much hilarity

 

[Tyguy]

I say we give them hand grenades and anti-take rounds, those see just as arbitrary

 

[Baserape>]

Recently I have been wanking up at about 5:30-6:00 AM. I have also aquired weapons in the last month or so.

I like to moisturise....

<To be cont..>

 

[Flyingdebris]

learn about your guns, dumkoffs

fully automatic weapons are not legal for civvie use unless you have a selling liscense, and even then you really aren't allowed to do anything with it aside from going to knob creek to fire them off at barrels and cars.

and nobody sprays "1000 of rounds" during hunting. Aside from regulatory hunting laws and aforementioned lack of automatic fire, hunting is about choosing your shots wisely.

also the term "assault weapon" does not = "assault rifle" The term assault weapon is just a buzzword that gungrabby politicians use to incrementally ban various weapon parts that make guns look scary. How barrel shrouds and pistol grips make a weapon more dangerous is beyond me. but thanks to the term assault weapon, things like that are illegal in numerous states for no good reason.

furthermore, eat some knowledge http://youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30&mode=related&search=

 

[leib10]

for those times when you simply must spray a forested area with 1000 rounds of hot lead in order to take out a single quail ..that's what for silly ...actually I wouldnt mind if they did use assault rifles during hunting ..great way to thin out the hunter population

spray & pray = much hilarity

Fully automatic weapons make poor hunting weapons because they, obviously, spray and waste a TON of ammo with little or no result. Most people who legally own machine guns are often very rich guys (legal MG's are very expensive; a full-auto M16 or MP5 would cost around $10000-15000. Keeping them supplied with ammo is also costly) who only use them for pleasure or for shooting competitions.

But most assault weapons in circulation are semi-auto only versions of their true military counterparts. It is illegal in most areas to hunt with these weapons with a high-capacity magazines, and in some states they're banned altogether (ie, California). They're still capable of a high rate of fire, though.

So yeah, 99% of people don't really need that kind of firepower, especially for hunting.

 

[Jintor]

I don't give a shit about what guns supposedly are or are not for. Military grade, hunting grade, whatever - guns are ****ing made to kill.

And they're embedded too deeply in the average American's soul to pull 'em out.

Man.

/EDIT PREEMPTIVE STRIKE Ok, ok, not paintball, airsoft, whatever. Yeesh.

 

[Cormeh]

For all intents and purposes Jintor, airsoft and paintball could be considered replicas as opposed to actual firearms.

 

[CptStern]

Fully automatic weapons make poor hunting weapons because they, obviously, spray and waste a TON of ammo with little or no result. Most people who legally own machine guns are often very rich guys (legal MG's are very expensive; a full-auto M16 or MP5 would cost around $10000-15000. Keeping them supplied with ammo is also costly) who only use them for pleasure or for shooting competitions.

But most assault weapons in circulation are semi-auto only versions of their true military counterparts. It is illegal in most areas to hunt with these weapons with a high-capacity magazines, and in some states they're banned altogether (ie, California). They're still capable of a high rate of fire, though.

So yeah, 99% of people don't really need that kind of firepower, especially for hunting.

ya cuz they're "assault" weapons ..used for "assault" ..no one could argue it has other more benign raisons d'etre like deer depopulator or redneck cookout/firearm family fun events

 

[Flyingdebris]

oh noes, not assault weapons!

civilian "assault weapons" are 9 times out of 10 no more dangerous than ones not classified as assault.

pistol grips, barrel shrouds, AR-stocks, foregrips, black polymer, and all those fun after market parts do a lot towards making a gun look mean and improving ergonomics, but functionally a .223 semi auto wood bodied hunting rifle is identical in most respects to an "assault weapon" 223 ar-15

 

[CptStern]

so you're saying that if police officers should confront someone with a "civilian assault weapon"/semi-auto hunting rifle they should take no chances and terminate the suspect with extreme prejudice? ...well then, I agree

 

[Tyguy]

What do people need with these weapons? Hunting is a piss poor excuse...you want to hunt? Get a hunting rifle....not a friggen ak-47, and dont try to justify having it solely for necessity.

 

[Flyingdebris]

what i'm saying is that your run of the mill semi auto weapon is not the killer death machine that spits out 1000 bullets of exploding death that you make it out to be

as for the necessity. What if i just want it? Why the hell should i justify anything to you? If i am responsible and i have the green, and i happen to like ak-47s then hell, I think i'd like to have one without somebody who's gun knowledge could be fit onto a post-it note telling me what i can and can't have.

 

[CptStern]

what i'm saying is that your run of the mill semi auto weapon is not the killer death machine that spits out 1000 bullets of exploding death that you make it out to be

yes because the image of a hunter strolling into a forested area and spraying it with 1000 rounds of hot lead is entirely realistic ...obviously I was being deadly serious :upstare:

as for the necessity. What if i just want it? Why the hell should i justify anything to you? If i am responsible and i have the green, and i happen to like ak-47s then hell, I think i'd like to have one without somebody who's gun knowledge could be fit onto a post-it note telling me what i can and can't have.

I'm sorry but that's not good enough ..you're responsible? how the hell do I know that? that's how stupid people get killed: they stupidly trust people will do the right thing ..well often they dont do the right thing, that's how toddlers kill their siblings, that's how wives end up bullet ridden that's how children get gunned down in public spaces

the only difference between you and a potential murderer is your word ..I dont know what you're capable of, you certainly have the means ..and simply legally purchasing guarantees absolutely nothing ..Seung-Hui Cho legally purchased 2 guns even though he was mentally unstable AND had been identified as such on at least 2 occasions yet was easily able to purchase firearms ....sorry but your word isnt good enough

 

[Nemesis6]

and his physique automatically makes him wrong? is that just him or all fat people in general?

Oh, shut up. Your purposeful misinterpretation is not funny anymore. By the way, your ad-hominems are getting weaker.

 

[CptStern]

Oh, shut up. Your purposeful misinterpretation is not funny anymore.

misinterpretation? what else could this mean? please explain:

Heh, his physique is the only argument you need to disprove half of his ideas of American society today.

sounds exactly like what I said you said ..but please do explain your reasoning for discounting him based on his size alone

By the way, your ad-hominems are getting weaker.

lol that sounds like a challenge ..there's plenty more to discuss within my last reply to you ..why do you only pick the "ad-hominem" statements to address when there's usually clear and concise points backed up with meticulously researched documentation ...oh right, you dont care about facts ..you'd rather deal in superficial observations that can be easily picked apart for inaccuracies by a child ...but if you feel man enough to actually answer ALL my points go right ahead, I wont even break a sweat as I make short work of your every statement

 

[Flyingdebris]

what about my word that i'm a good driver, or my word that i won't sell prescription drugs to kids looking to get high, or my word that i won't kill someone with a hammer or shovel. Most people are not criminals, and common decency and word should be enough.

the grand majority of gun owners are responsible level headed people, whether or not that fits with your world view of gun owners being camo wearing low brow psychopaths is something else entirely. Most gun owners are either collectors, hunters, people interested in their self defense or a little of all 3. The police are more likely to shoot you than a fellow civvie anyhow.

 

[Tyguy]

What if i just want it? Why the hell should i justify anything to you? If i am responsible and i have the green, and i happen to like ak-47s then hell, I think i'd like to have one without somebody who's gun knowledge could be fit onto a post-it note telling me what i can and can't have.

First of all you flaming gun nut...dont presume i know nothing about weapons....secondly, what if I wanted a Barrett m107 .50 caliber sniper rifle for my nice little apartment in Boston....I have the cash....

These types of weapons should be reserved for military and police....not any idiot with a few dollars and zero hobbies. You cant sensibly argue that handing out powerful weapons like this is a smart idea.

 

[CptStern]

what about my word that i'm a good driver

meaningless, I treat everyone on the road on the presumed assumption that they're an idiot

or my word that i won't sell prescription drugs to kids looking to get high

I dont know that

or my word that i won't kill someone with a hammer or shovel.

I dont know whether you're capable of that or not

Most people are not criminals

wrong, most people commit crimes multiple times throughout their lives ..whether it's jaywalking or cheating on your taxes, your statement is meaningless

and common decency and word should be enough.

we're talking the potential to end my life or someone I hold dear's life ..sorry human decency is for trusting fools your word is meaningless ..I wouldnt turn my back on someone I know is carrying or has access ..in fact I wouldnt trust that they wouldnt use it if provoked enough ...I'm very good at provoking people

the grand majority of gun owners are responsible level headed people

the vast majority of people are law abiding, does that mean we should trust them all because a majority are law abiding? trust no one till they give you a reason to ..all else is foolish

whether or not that fits with your world view of gun owners being camo wearing low brow psychopaths is something else entirely.

you cant seem to recognise the difference between scathing sarcasim and honest opinion

Most gun owners are either collectors, hunters, people interested in their self defense or a little of all 3. The police are more likely to shoot you than a fellow civvie anyhow.

that's utter nonsense ..fbi stats clearly indicate crimials are more likely to shoot you than police officers ..this whole "we need the guns to protect ourselves from the law" is the most idiotic aspect of gun rights advocacy ..it's like you all subscribe to this culture of ignorance that embraces an unrealitic justification (self defense against authority) in a vain attempt to justify your supposed right to arm yourselves ..it is sheer lunacy to believe that in this day and age people are still motivated by a fear of government that they need to arm themselves ..perhaps in Sierra Leon or Darfur ..but this is the US we're talking about ..if they wanted to undermine citizens rights they wouldnt do it by the sword ..you're all too eager to give your rights away ...like lemmings feeling an inescapable urge to plunge themselves into the abyss

 

[Flyingdebris]

who's just handing out weapons? They are expensive and a huge responsibility. I'm just saying that if a person wants one bad enough, provided they are shown to be responsible and without a history of crime, then they should be able to get one. besides have you ever actually heard of a crime commited with a 50 cal?

and you stern, going by what you say, seem to suscribe to the belief that everyone else is either an idiot or incompentent. Your misanthropic world view will get you places, i'm sure. But once again it comes down to you making gross decisions for the good of all based on your self centered point of view. And i frankly don't care that you have trust issues with your fellow man.

 

[Tyguy]

besides have you ever actually heard of a crime commited with a 50 cal?

No because they are illegal and closely monitored by the government and private military and law enforcement supplier organizations...

 

[Nemesis6]

sounds exactly like what I said you said ..but please do explain your reasoning for discounting him based on his size alone

I didn't discount his opinion, I just said that perhaps he should consider the fact that his BMI is a direct contradiction to the little delusional world he lives in where America is ruled by a government that, according to his own retarded head, masterminded the 9/11 attacks. Now, Michael Moore claims that America has big problems. He walks around decrying what America is, the values from which it has been built up, and yet he ignores the biggest criticism of his arguments, which is himself; how sweet his ****ing life is, making money off dead people, being able to live the sweet life -- Literally. He's a disgusting person and while he raises points, I don't take him seriously. The title "hypocrite" is the best possible title you could give Michael Moore.

 

[Flyingdebris]

No because they are illegal and closely monitored by the government and private military and law enforcement supplier organizations...

they aren't illegal, just expensive in both price tag and cost of ammo, and demonized by the media, they are in fact used for long range sport shooting

 

[CptStern]

I didn't discount his opinion, I just said that perhaps he should consider the fact that his BMI is a direct contradiction to the little delusional world he lives in where America is ruled by a government that..

his body mass is in direct contradiction to his viewpoint on america? that doesnt even make sense ..again please explain WHY his body mass is in any way tied to his viewpoint ..you're just clutching at straws and further miring yourself in your own ignorance

according to his own retarded head, masterminded the 9/11 attacks.

please provide evidence Moore believes the US government was behind 9/11 ..that's a pretty big accusation Nemesis ..prove it or retract it

Now, Michael Moore claims that America has big problems.

yes now he does ..despite the fact his entire career spanning over 20 years as a film maker has been dedicated to exposing corporate greed and government duplicity ..only now does he claim america has big problems because YOU've only just discovered him ..ya that makes sense

He walks around decrying what America is, the values from which it has been built up, and yet he ignores the biggest criticism of his arguments, which is himself; how sweet his ****ing life is, making money off dead people, being able to live the sweet life -- Literally.

damn you are truely an ignorant fool ..the "sweet life" is counterproductive to criticising american foreign policy? only homeless people should criticise the goverment? you truely are thick between the ears

He's a disgusting person and while he raises points, I don't take him seriously.

probaby because you dont understand them ..or you have your head up your ass and cant bear to hear something that completely contradicts everything you stand for ..regardless if it's accurate or not ..your basic argument is you dont like him because ..
a. he's fat
b. he says things you disagree with

you sound like a petulant child

The title "hypocrite" is the best possible title you could give Michael Moore.

no that would best suit you ..also fool, ignorant, reactionary etc

 

[Tyguy]

they aren't illegal, just expensive in both price tag and cost of ammo, and demonized by the media, they are in fact used for long range sport shooting

Let me state: Theya re illegal in a few states...but for the purpose of debate, lets change it to....an RPG

http://www.vpc.org/snipercrime.htm

 

[Flyingdebris]

reading through that list, only 2 of those instances actually saw the 50cal being used, during the waco incident and during an attack on a delivery truck, every other incident was "this guy is a criminal, and he happened to have a 50cal so we confiscated it"

and one flat out lie, the killdozer man never had a 50cal.

still though, this list is a drop in the bucket even if you do count them all. Its like what, 2, maybe 3 incidents involving 50 cals a year, most of which are never part of the crime.


why would you want to make roleplaying games illegal?

 

[leib10]

One thing I didn't understand was the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994. It supposedly banned the 5 "evil" features of assault weapons, such as pistol grip, hi-cap magazine, bayonet lug (now, who's gonna kill somebody with that), etc. Yet we were able to buy an SAR-1 (AK47 clone) from a legitimate business with all of those features, circa 2000, when the ban was still alive and kicking. The ban was a total failure.

And yeah, people grossly overreacted to the .50 BMG weapons.

 

[Nemesis6]

his body mass is in direct contradiction to his viewpoint on america? that doesnt even make sense ..again please explain WHY his body mass is in any way tied to his viewpoint ..you're just clutching at straws and further miring yourself in your own ignorance

You know what I mean. Don't be an ass about it. He complains about a lot of things without realizing that maybe he should elaborate on the things that he DOES like.

please provide evidence Moore believes the US government was behind 9/11 ..that's a pretty big accusation Nemesis ..prove it or retract it

Fahrenheit 9/11? He practically started the loony-left conspiracy theories. "Oh but that doesn't mean he believes it himself!" - Bullshit. Conspiracy theories about things where people died are virtually a spitwad in the face of the dead, and Michael Moore is making huge profit off of them. It's easy to paint yourself as a heartless ghoul, and Michael Moore proved that with his Fahrenheit 9/11 movie.

yes now he does ..despite the fact his entire career spanning over 20 years as a film maker has been dedicated to exposing corporate greed and government duplicity ..only now does he claim america has big problems because YOU've only just discovered him ..ya that makes sense

You're talking out of your ass here. Driving around in a golf car and shouting through a loud-speaker at government employees qualifies as "exposing greed and government duplicity"? That's retarded.

damn you are truely an ignorant fool ..the "sweet life" is counterproductive to criticising american foreign policy? only homeless people should criticise the goverment? you truely are thick between the ears

To be honest, I just see him as a whiner. The only positive thing I believe he has done is remove bullets from Walmart. He's a bottom-feeder, and he proved that by going for making money off of the dead, and denying the basic reality of their demise.

probaby because you dont understand them ..or you have your head up your ass and cant bear to hear something that completely contradicts everything you stand for ..regardless if it's accurate or not ..your basic argument is you dont like him because ..
a. he's fat
b. he says things you disagree with

you sound like a petulant child



no that would best suit you ..also fool, ignorant, reactionary etc

I understand his points, and they're ****ing weak. He blames America's gun problems on the NRA ignoring the fact that most crime is committed by gangs.

He might not like Charlton Heston, but he's far worse himself as he spews deceptive bullshit accusing him of racism, like you accuse me of, while, like Michael Moore, making an ass of yourself.

Now, in one scene, outside Heston's house, he places the picture of a dead 6-year-old who was shot by another child with a gun. And he felt he needed to lie about his identity to talk with him. Reactionary anyone? Liar?

So by that logic, we should place this picture at his door: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/P200336.jpg

Yep. The victims of 9/11. There's that moral equivalence you like to pull right there.

 

[CptStern]

You know what I mean. Don't be an ass about it. He complains about a lot of things without realizing that maybe he should elaborate on the things that he DOES like.

no I dont know what you mean ..and I'm not the one being an ass ..again you clearly say his weight is tied to his to whether his ideas are valid or not:

Heh, his physique is the only argument you need to disprove half of his ideas of American society today.

explain why you think that is so ..how does weight in any way relate to his ideology? and if it seems like I'm being an ass by pushing this issue it's because I want you to see how stupid that statement was

Fahrenheit 9/11? He practically started the loony-left conspiracy theories.

what part, I have it on dvd ..tell me the exact time frame so I can see it myself

"Oh but that doesn't mean he believes it himself!" - Bullshit.

you havent watched farenheit 9/11 have you ..that much is clear ..again point out exactly where he says the US government is responsible for 9/11 ..you just make up shit as you go along dont you?

Conspiracy theories about things where people died are virtually a spitwad in the face of the dead, and Michael Moore is making huge profit off of them.

what the fcuk are you talking about? the victems of 9/11? you dont think Haliburton is making money off the victems of 9/11? that was the justification for entering iraq. there is no greater definition of recieving blood money than the bush admin and their cronies who set up a virtual siv of US tax dollars to line their pockets ..from no contract bids, overspending on uncompleted work, to large sums of missing cash ...yet Michael Moore is the parasite here? you're truely a hypocrite ..and an ignorant one at that

It's easy to paint yourself as a heartless ghoul, and Michael Moore proved that with his Fahrenheit 9/11 movie.

how would you know you havent seen it ..again please point to the specific scene in F9/11 that says the US government was responsible

You're talking out of your ass here. Driving around in a golf car and shouting through a loud-speaker at government employees qualifies as "exposing greed and government duplicity"? That's retarded.

I'm convinced there are times you dont even understand what you're saying ...have you watched the aweful truth? you'll get another chance to prove how "retarted" when Moore's Sicko is released in theaters

To be honest, I just see him as a whiner.

based on what? we've already established you havent seem the majority of his work? reading little green footballs again?

The only positive thing I believe he has done is remove bullets from Walmart. He's a bottom-feeder, and he proved that by going for making money off of the dead, and denying the basic reality of their demise.

9/11 again? he's profiting from the dead? again do I need to point out your idiotic hypocrisy?

I understand his points, and they're ****ing weak. He blames America's gun problems on the NRA ignoring the fact that most crime is committed by gangs.

how would you know ...seeing as how you live lear across the world ..you'd think american media would be hard to come by in your neck of the woods? oh and I'd like to see you prove most crime is commited by gang members ..here, use this resource, it's easy to find victemization figures

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

He might not like Charlton Heston, but he's far worse himself as he spews deceptive bullshit accusing him of racism, like you accuse me of, while, like Michael Moore, making an ass of yourself.

yes moore is worse than Heston who even though was asked not to hold an NRA meeting a few weeks after the littledon massacre went ahead and did so anyways ..but this isnt a populartity contest ..how you feel about either of them shouldnt have any bearing on the validity of what they say ..really why does anyone have to explain this to you? are you truely that dense?

Now, in one scene, outside Heston's house, he places the picture of a dead 6-year-old who was shot by another child with a gun. And he felt he needed to lie about his identity to talk with him. Reactionary anyone? Liar?

what the hell are you talking about? he didnt identify himself? what does that have to do with the 6 year old? you're not making sense

So by that logic, we should place this picture at his door: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/P200336.jpg

Yep. The victims of 9/11. There's that moral equivalence you like to pull right there.

ok once again that makes no sense but I'll indulge your retarded train of thought and add my own little crazy photo


that's more of "moral equivalence" right? whaever the hell that's supposed to mean

 

[Tyguy]

Stern, stop taking what he is saying and countering it with intelligent and rational thought.........jeez

 

[HunterSeeker]

Nuclear weapons should be legal to sell to anyone, if they do not have a criminal background I can see no reason why they should be outlawed.

I might need one to defend myself, especially from the goverment and you can never have to much firepower, right?

 

[Flyingdebris]

now you're just being facetious

 

[Jintor]

I'm sorry, there's a bathroom over there.

/EDIT ARGH WTF. Someone delete these extras.

*kicks modem*

 

[leib10]

Nuclear weapons should be legal to sell to anyone, if they do not have a criminal background I can see no reason why they should be outlawed.

I might need one to defend myself, especially from the goverment and you can never have to much firepower, right?

Could you really trust Joe Sixpack with a nuclear warhead? Could he even use it without destroying thousands of innocent lives in the process? What you're saying makes absolutely zero sense.

I know you're just using it for comparison, but it falls flat.

 

[CptStern]

? it's not like the nuclear warhead has a fuse and Hunterseeker's house is full of cigarrette lighters. The analogy stands. It accurately illustrates that just because someone wants something doesnt mean they're entitled to it


where can I get some sarin toxin? I dont want a 5 day waiting period either ..I want my wmd now goddammit while I'm still angry