Where is the originality?

[Sparta]

What? They come out all the time.

What i'm saying is, even though it may seem like a new game, its just the same formula all over again.

 

[TheSomeone]

What i'm saying is, even though it may seem like a new game, its just the same formula all over again.

No.

...

 

[Warbie]

What did HL2 add that was new? I know we've been here before, but I still don't see it.

The story is driven by superb cutscenes and filled with characters that are brought to life through unsurpassed facial animation and suprisingly decent, especially for a video game, voice acting. The result is a game world that feels more real than any other i've experienced - that is, untill the action begins.

And this is my gripe with HL2. The high level of production, the almost obsessive attention to detail, starts to fade into the backdrop once the fighting begins. There's nothing wrong with it, just as there was nothing wrong with it in HL, but it feels a little old and tired. A bizzare mix old and next gen.

While the improvements to story telling techniques and physics deserve to be applauded, they are just that, improvements. The action, which is the main driving force of the game, is far from original, and has been bettered years ago. It seems to me that Valve improved upon every possible area bar the one that was most important.

So, here I am waiting for PDZ. It will almost certainly fail to match HL2 in every area that HL2 exels. The action should be both very challenging and satisfying, though, and the arsenal varied and inventive. The bad guys, shuddering as each bullet hits home, will look and feel like they're being shot. It doesn't sound like much, but this makes all the difference in the world - and is why, after all these years, Golden Eye is loved by many 1000's of fans and still rated as one of the best fps ever made. It should feel like you're shooting people in a FPS, not holding a cursor over an enemy and holding down a button untill they fall over, which, despite what HL2 achieves (which is considerable), is what the combat feels like.

tbh I doubt PDZ will either qualify as original or match Golden Eye. If it does, it'll be the polar opposite to HL2 - a crappy story with hackneyed characters that live in cliched cutscenes, but with combat so meaty you'll see the shrapnel flying out of your tv screen. I've actually forgotten my point now (it's 3:30 and i'm very tired), and don't think it has much to do with this thread anymore ... something to do with developers worrying more about turning video games into interactive movies, and spending more time on graphics, animation, cut scenes etc etc than actually making them more fun and improving gameplay - which is the area that most needs originality, both in the way games are played and in how we control them.

 

[Sparta]

No.

...

Yes actually.

Name what you think is an original game that has come out over the past two years. Other than Katamari Damacy.

 

[Warbie]

Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat is pretty original - controlling a platformer by bashing tiny bongos, clapping, and genrally acting like a loony, works far better, and is more fun, than anyone could have imagined

 

[Sparta]

Thats one.

 

[Cole]

So when HL1 introduces something new, it's worthy of being called original. When HL2 introduces something new, such is not the case. Double standard? You decide. I think you people are complaining for the sake of complaining, yearning back for the old days to appease some faux sense of seniority.

What are you TALKING ABOUT.
Im not complaining at all.
I called both HL and HL2 ORINGAL.
Read everything man:
Half-Life 1: "Yet alot of the core concepts are still there."
Half-Life 2: "but still was true to the original format."
I called them both to the oringal format, I never said one was more oringal than the other. They were both oringal, and oringal dosn't mean you stray from the core concept\format.

Im not complaining at all im just defending the fact that you don't need to completely revamp the entire ****ing way games are played to be oringal but just to add something new that no game has grasped before and adds something that affects the game itself and how it's played.
The Gravity Gun for instance.

I was defining my thoughts on Oringinality not trying to strike it down or put jetpacks on it and have it fly up in the air.

 

[Warbie]

Yoshi's Touch and Go is also very original, unique infact. A platform game in which the user makes the platforms. Great stuff

 

[TheSomeone]

Yes actually.

Name what you think is an original game that has come out over the past two years. Other than Katamari Damacy.

Give me what you think is an original game coming from a date you specify from the "good old days" so I can judge what you want me to say.

 

[Sparta]

Yoshi's Touch and Go is also very original, unique infact. A platform game in which the user makes the platforms. Great stuff

Ooo i'm intrigued.
Thats two. Keep the list going.

An original game from "the good old days" would be something like System Shock. An original game from now would be something like those two Nintendo games Warbie mentioned.

 

[Warbie]

I'm running out - original ideas are a rare commodity in video games these days.

I think 4-swords should qualify - a 4 player co-op Zelda played on the same screen, but avoiding the limitations that come with this by giving each player their own tiny screen on the GBA.

 

[TheSomeone]

Hold on, you're comparing two years to two decades of gaming, that's not fair.

 

[Warbie]

Eye Toy! - great fun. Very original, and everyone likes it, incl. girls and my parents.

It's becoming more apparent that it's the way these games are controlled that is allowing for original concepts to be realised (there's not alot we can do with pads and m&k anymore) It makes the Revolution look rather attractive at the moment - especially to anyone who's interest in gaming has been flagging of late.

 

[Sparta]

Hold on, you're comparing two years to two decades of gaming, that's not fair.

Its entirely fair, because that was always the argument. Like i said, if you've been around long enough then you've played pretty much everything the gaming industry has to offer at the moment.

For example, compare Operation Flashpoint and Far Cry.

They both allow tons and tons of non-linear action. Tons of freedom. Both have their own mission editors and both have some pretty good A.I (for its OFP had some pretty good AI anyway). Both were very challenging, and both were set in environments usually not used in FPS's (You'll see why i'm comparing a War-sim to an FPS in a moment)
When Operation Flashpoint came out, it got some pretty damn good reviews and a massive cult following. When Far Cry came out it got some pretty damn good reviews and a big cult following as well.
I played Operation Flashpoint for about six months straight when it first came out. Loved it to death. Never played anything like that. When the demo for Far Cry came out, i downloaded it after everyone saying how amazing the A.I is and the freedom and yada yada. Didn't think much of the demo, because everything i'd done in that i did years before in Operation Flashpoint. Bought Far Cry anyway after everyone said it was as good as Half-Life. Everything that Far Cry did well, Operation Flashpoint did better 3 years before Far Cry came out, hence why i thought Far Cry was shit, and why i still think Far Cry is shit (Although Far Cry Instincts was really good).

 

[destrukt]

shadow of the colossus and katamari hands down.

most games aren't original, but they're fairly innovative which still makes them worth playing.

 

[Sparta]

shadow of the colossus

Is just a big puzzle boss fight, one after the other. Not entirely original, but yeah its still kinda original.
And yeah, Originality does not necessarily equate to fun.

 

[TheSomeone]

Okay, Indigo Prophecy.

And Rome: Total War. No strategy game like that I know of. And ragdoll-kungfu and darwinia. The movies. Brothers in Arms. Psychonauts. Fable. Trackmania even. (all PC games since it's all I play)

I don't think the originality rate has gone down, and if it has, it'll go back up when the new consoles come out.

 

[Warbie]

Not entirely original, but yeah its still kinda original.

Be fair, as most games go it is pretty original.

 

[Sparta]

Okay, Indigo Prophecy.

And Rome: Total War. No strategy game like that I know of. And ragdoll-kungfu and darwinia. The movies. Brothers in Arms. Psychonauts. Fable. Trackmania even. (all PC games since it's all I play)

I don't think the originality rate has gone down, and if it has, it'll go back up when the new consoles come out.

Actually, everything has been done before in one way or another. I can't say for Brothers in Arms, i've only played the demo. Haven't played RDKF or Darwinia but i hear they're good.

Fable is just any other RPG with tons of extra (and seemingly useless) features.

The Movies is simply another Sims-game focussed on movies.

Psychonauts is your average adventure game done extremely well. Think about it, Hero has powers, learns powers along the way as he visits different areas/places/worlds, beats badguy at the end, leaves room for sequel.

Trackmania has also been done before with many other stunt driving games. The earliest one i can remember was a really old stunt driver game on computer with one of those spinny wheel thingies for anti-piracy.

Rome:Total War is a sequel with the same gameplay as the games before it.

Indigo Prophecy is an adventure game with unique controls which turns most things into a mini-game. Works well at the time, but when i try to remember cool parts of the game all i can think of is flashing lights. Plus, the outcome of the mini-games are basically the same. Either you beat them, or its game over.

And Shadow Of Colossus : Not really, its simply removing the floods of badguys and giving you the bosses.

 

[Warbie]

Trackmania has also been done before with many other stunt driving games. The earliest one i can remember was a really old stunt driver game on computer with one of those spinny wheel thingies for anti-piracy.

Stunt Car Racer, perhaps?

I loved that game

 

[Sparta]

No actually it wasn't that old. This one was actually kinda 3d. Like the early Test-Drive games

 

[TheSomeone]

You're way too ****ing picky, I can't think of a single original game ever by your standards.

If you don't think Shadow of the Collossus or Indigo Prophecy are original, there's a problem with you mate.

 

[Sparta]

There are plenty of original games, but they've all been done now. Hence this thread.

 

[TheSomeone]

What? When has indigo prophecy been done? Name the game it's derived from.

And name those "original games" you're speaking of.

 

[destrukt]

Shadow Of Colossus : Not really, its simply removing the floods of badguys and giving you the bosses.

you can belittle any game like that, it's not hard at all.

show me a game that is similar to sotc and where it's gameplay/features have been used before, please.

 

[Sparta]

Indigo Prophecy is simply an adventure game (like Monkey Island or Grim Fandango) with a different (and some might argue better) control system.

Hero is presented with problem. Hero goes about using clues to solve other various problems along the way to solve the big problem. Usually alot of talking and combining objects is involved. Along with the worlds biggest inventory. Or bottomless pants (Guybrush Threepwood, where do you buy those?).

SotC: Zelda's Temples in boss form.

 

[TheSomeone]

Indigo Prophecy is simply an adventure game (like Monkey Island or Grim Fandango) with a different (and some might argue better) control system.

System shock is just an RPG played in first person, with a cyberpunk theme...



If you seriously, seriously think that's all there is to Indigo Prophecy, you completely missed the point.

I wrote this for an article at one point:

This may not be the awaited Citizen Kane of gaming, but it does bring an original and quite revolutionary concept: A game that uses story as foundation for gameplay rather than the other way around. I really couldn't do it justice by describing it, you'll need to try out the free PC-Only demo. Although it only contains one short scene from the beggining of the game, there is over half a dozen ways to complete it. Having played the full version, I can guarantee you that whatever you do in that first scene will have repercussions later on, adding to the depth of the experience.

There is a very intresting post-mortem where the developer/director of Indigo Prophecy explains the goals and hopes he had for Indigo Prophecy. However, I don't suggest you read it unless you've already completed the game or decide you will never do so, as it contains some spoilers.

Adventure games have always put riddles/minigames before story, but with Indigo Prophecy, gameplay? What gameplay? It's a dumbed-down "Simon says". The central focus really is the story.

EDIT: Seems like you lengthened your post while I was writing mine.

Hero is presented with problem. Hero goes about using clues to solve other various problems along the way to solve the big problem. Usually alot of talking and combining objects is involved. Along with the worlds biggest inventory. Or bottomless pants (Guybrush Threepwood, where do you buy those?).

1. There is no single hero.
2. There is no inventory.
3. There is one problem in the entire game that you need clues to solve, and the clues are literally "clues" that you have to put together at a police station.

 

[torso boy]

I think the problem these days is not originality in gameplay, but in art style. I would say the push for realism is to blame, but it may have something to do with hardware. Thats actually a switch from old games(imo), where games often looked very different, but they were pretty much all rpgs/shooters/fighters/platformers. To me, around the time of ps1/n64 I think we saw the most originality, because the third dimention just opened up for gameplay, and game companies had more unique designs because they didn't try to make completely realistic designs.

 

[Absinthe]

Someone, don't bother. Everybody here has a concept of originality so fantastic that they fail to even recognize it when its right in their face.

 

[Sparta]

Like Absinthe said, you have no idea what my concept of originality is. And if something is so original, why dont i notice it when its in my face? Because i dont see it as original at all. Only on rare occasions does something truly original come along.

As you say in your quote from that article you wrote on Indigo Prophecy, the game gives you many different ways to complete the same thing. So what? How many other games have done that? Tons. How many other adventure games? Not that much at all. But what does it matter if the game gives you different ways of completely the same thing, which ultimately leads to the same objective? I mean Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy, whatever) built itself up to be an almost completely dynamic game. But the only thing it really offers in terms of a dynamic storyline is about 4 different endings, all of which are subjective to a decision you make at the end of the game.

All it is, is teaching an old dog new tricks.

And i never said there was anything wrong with being unoriginal, otherwise i would've given up gaming years ago.

 

[Jintor]

I didn't see the same bland, expressionless crap as i do in clone after clone of FPS's, in Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy for yo crazy, crazy yanks). Which is to say, I don't see that Fahrenheit rips off the adventure genre.

 

[Sparta]

I didn't see the same bland, expressionless crap as i do in clone after clone of FPS's, in Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy for yo crazy, crazy yanks). Which is to say, I don't see that Fahrenheit rips off the adventure genre.

I never said it rips off anything. Besides, how can you rip off the genre you're apart of anyway?

 

[TheSomeone]

Someone, don't bother. Everybody here has a concept of originality so fantastic that they fail to even recognize it when its right in their face.

I was going to type up a long reply, but you're right. Sparta didn't even slightly make reference, needless to say adress, a single bit of my post.

Conclusion: If you think no original games are coming out these days, it's your problem because obviously gaming authorities (on which developers largely depend) and the majority of the gaming community disagrees with you. Just look up "Indigo prophecy review."

There's nothing wrong with the gaming industry on this point, you have to either:

1. Try to be more opened minded.
2. Accept you'll rarely encounter original games in your life.

Either way you need to stop whining about developers not making original games. That's like complaining to a chinese restaurant that their food sucks even though you hate chinese and know it.

For those of us who look past the surface, for those who don't classify every FPS as just another FPS because you aim with your mouse, and every RPG as just another RPG because you travel in a large fantasy world, we get to see something fresh every year.

 

[OCybrManO]

The problem is that games cost hundreds or thousands of times as much money to make, a dozen times the development duration, and require teams of many highly trained experts in various fields to make a blockbuster game... yet, because of the flooding of the market with tons of games, each individual game still sells only about as well as it did in the 80s. So, a single guy used to be able to develop a blockbuster game for maybe $1,000 and, after being published, it could rake in almost $50,000,000 in almost pure profit... whereas, now, you're starting to have to put up several million dollars just to get the games made. If you don't make that money back and then some, those years have been a huge waste of time. That's a huge risk. Most new developers just can't afford it. They have to depend on publishers wanting to take the risks for them... which is not common.

Of course, there are a few exceptions... Valve being one of them because Gabe got rich from working for Microsoft and could afford to fund Half-Life out of his own cash. Generally speaking, the only people you'll see able to develop new, crazy ideas are people that have already established themselves as reliable developers with a strong track record of successful games. Examples of these are Nintendo, Maxis, Lionhead, etc. If they hadn't made a name for themselves when it was easier to get in the business... they probably wouldn't be making games today. On the other hand, some developers with strong track records go in the opposite direction and focus on what they know, only adopting changes proven by others. These are the people the "hardcore" gamers turn to when they want their specific gameplay they've come to expect but with shinier graphics. Once they go down that path, there's no turning back... because, if you do, you will disappoint your "hardcore" fans and they will turn on you. They're your Epics and id Softwares.

Basically, originality isn't dead yet... but the current trend is definately threatening it. If game development costs continue to skyrocket and the market doesn't expand, originality is going to be very rare, indeed. So, I try to support people that do new things. I play(ed) B&W, the Movies, Darwinia, Giants, RDKF, Uplink, Beyond Good & Evil, and a bunch of other interesting ideas. If I had a PS2, I would own Katamari Damacy. I'm also thinking about getting a DS... but trying to convince myself not to so I can save some money.

 

[Sparta]

I was going to type up a long reply, but you're right. Sparta didn't even slightly make reference, needless to say adress, a single bit of my post.

Wrong, i did address your post. It wasn't a long post because i had to go out. So here, let me cut to the chase this time.

System shock is just an RPG played in first person, with a cyberpunk theme...

But it was the original cyberpunk RPG. Nothing like it had come before it in the gaming industry. Hence, original. The only thing that comes close to it is maybe Marathon, but that wasn't the first FPS/RPG, that was just an FPS.

Adventure games have always put riddles/minigames before story, but with Indigo Prophecy, gameplay? What gameplay? It's a dumbed-down "Simon says". The central focus really is the story.

The main focus of adventure games has always been the story. The gameplay has always come second, but giving the game a different control system to solve the same problems doesnt necessarily mean its original. It means its innovative not original. Original would mean giving the game a different set of control systems to work with an entirely different gameplay mechanic. You may see this whole "Simon Says" minigame stuff as "original", and yeah its sort of original, but it would've been more original before games like Resident Evil 4 ("Dodge" anyone?) or God of War, which i hear puts you into a minigame to kill certain bosses. Indigo Prophecy is innovative, sure, of course it is. Original? No.

1. There is no single hero.

This can be said for any RPG as well.

2. There is no inventory.

Where in the game do you actually need to use your head or items from an inventory to solve a puzzle? Think about it. I can think of one place, and thats in that chinese book shop, and that wasn't too hard either. Having no inventory may be original but its simply removing one of the biggest and most useful gameplay mechanics in an adventure game. And as for clues...

3. There is one problem in the entire game that you need clues to solve, and the clues are literally "clues" that you have to put together at a police station.

Not many clues are there? I mean, where is one part in the game where you actually have to do something other than a minigame in order to find/get/solve a clue? Two times, where the black guy is at home and white chick is at the office, and then vice-versa for the other time.
The only real original thing about Indigo Prophecy is that it tries to pass itself off as a movie rather than a game. But if you call that into account, then so does every Metal Gear Solid game ever made.

The gaming industry is not original at all. Neither is the movie industry or the music industry. The reason why these industries aren't always being original? Because sticking to something unoriginal is where the money comes from. Thats why there are 12 Final Fantasy games, 6 Mario Partys, 8 Nightmare on Elm Street movies, 3 Terminator movies and thats why all thats on the ****ing radio is hip-hop, RnB and the same shit that you've heard everywhere else, years before.

Differentiating from the normal (being "original") can tend to freak people out alot of the time. How many people here thought Katamari Damacy was designed by someone on PCP? How many people have seen Memento and thought "What the **** is going on?" the first time through? How many people have heard something from Mars Volta and though "MY EARS ARE BEING RAPED"?

People can get freaked out at first. Then most people get used to it and begin to love it (Except Mars Volta, i mean what the ****). In some cases, with games like Freedom Fighters or the Burnout series (specifically Burnout 3) people love it immediately.

And i encounter original games all the time. Have you heard of Gish by any chance? Look into it. Its a platformer that actually uses physics in ways other games haven't even bothered to think of. Its surprisingly fun to break the neck of a monster using your own body weight (comprised of tar). If it didn't use physics in an original way, then it would just be any other platformer.

The gaming industry is not as original as you're making it out to be. All it does, is find a gameplay mechanic/innovation and strangle the death out of it (Such as FPS games w/ physics, and adventure/action games with these Simon Says minigames).

As for the majority of the gaming community disagreeing with me, i doubt that, i'd say its about half and half amongst those of us who have been playing games for more than 10 years now. As for Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit, you could be right, they could/do disagree with me but thats not gonna change the fact that this Simon Says stuff has been done before.

 

[Jintor]

Hmm, my definition of 'orginality' differs from yours, i believe...

I think 'originality' is 'something that does not rip something else off'.

But i guess that's different to yours.