Why are we hated in the Arab World?

[Devilphish]

I know next to nothing about her, I just posted those quotes because I happen to agree with those statements. IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely, but there is no logical way to do it without causing more disruption in the mid-east. The next best way to set things right there is to invade each dictatorship and set up a proper and free form of government. This will cause more disruption for a short while, then things will settle down into much better conditions than they were beforehand. Under the conditions of living in some of these slave nations, it's no wonder people are driven to hatred and eager to die for false and illogical beliefes, and take innocent lives with them in the process. In this age there should be some effort in bringing the rest of the world into a more enlightened form of government, and it is more than acceptable to use force in the case of the stragglers and hardheads like the slave dictatorships in the mid-east. This is why the war in Iraq was justified with or without WMD, or wether our main motivation was oil or not.

But thats just the way I see it. :upstare:

 

[Pogrom]

First of all, we're a democracy. We're not a single person who decides he doesn't like a country and then joins a terrorist cell with a bunch of other people who decided the same way. We rule by majority, or in this case the president ruled with help from lots of advisors and information from one of the world's top intelligence agencies.
Second: WE ARE NOT TARGETTING CIVILIANS. Do you understand that? We target only the people who hold guns, we do not organize to attack CIVILIANS. Mistakes happen some times.
Once the middle east has an actual government set up (and not a dictatorship like Saddam's) then they can actually make informed decisions on when and when not to use force.

So if the terrorists starting targeting soldiers again (like when they set off that boat bomb next to the US aircraft carrier) then they'll be justified in using force?

You still haven't addressed the issue of the extremists having no real recourse except for terrorist action. Even though the US is trying to install a democracy right now, in the past the only way for them to express themselves was through action.

And the "We're a democracy, they aren't" argument is invalid also.

Okay - so one country decides to use force... What about international democracy? Shouldn't this be decided upon by a majority of nations?

What is the point of installing democracy in other countries if everything at the top level of society is going to be decided by one country?

 

[CptStern]

IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely, but there is no logical way to do it without causing more disruption in the mid-east.

you cant be serious? while you're at it get rid of christianity because some of the radicals are dangerous...in fact lets just kill anyone who remotely looks suspiscious.

btw Ayn Rand was an author who was often accused of being communist because of her "collectivism" ideology. She's best known for her books: Atlas Shrugged, and The FountainHead

 

[Pogrom]

IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely.
But thats just the way I see it. :upstare:

Would you please like to explain that point of view to the millions of peace-loving, law-abiding muslims of the world?

Being a muslim does not mean being against freedom and democracy. I am amazed sometimes

 

[Devilphish]

Okay - so one country decides to use force... What about international democracy? Shouldn't this be decided upon by a majority of nations?

No. ANY free nation has the right to invade a rogue, slave dictatorship. They are an outlaw nation that needs to be set right for the good of it's citizens. No nation is obligated to invade them, but if they have an interest in it any free nation has the right to. Outlaw nations have no right to not be invaded. A free nation does not need the permission of any other nation, free or otherwise, to invade an outlaw nation. This is the only way to move forward. We must think of the greater good. All men have the basic right to be free. This is the most fundamental right of all. If a nation imposes slavery on it's citizens, it has no right to be safe from invasion.

 

[Pogrom]

No. ANY free nation has the right to invade a rogue, slave dictatorship. They are an outlaw nation that needs to be set right for the good of it's citizens. No nation is obligated to invade them, but if they have an interest in it any free nation has the right to. Outlaw nations have no right to not be invaded. A free nation does not need the permission of any other nation, free or otherwise, to invade an outlaw nation. This is the only way to move forward. We must think of the greater good. All men have the basic right to be free. This is the most fundamental right of all. If a nation imposes slavery on it's citizens, it has no right to be safe from invasion.

It does sound like you are living in a fantasy world.

 

[Warbie]

IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely

That is one of the stupidest things i've ever read :/

Maybe we should eradicate all the idiots in this world - would save us reading such crap.

 

[Devilphish]

while you're at it get rid of christianity because some of the radicals are dangerous...in fact lets just kill anyone who remotely looks suspiscious.

Christianity is a religion of peace. Although some of it's members are meatheads, the religion itself is peaceful. Islam is not. Islam encouranges eradification of the infidels and horrendous violence against innocents. Givernments based on this religion are tyrannical and oppressive. Although some people are capable of practicing Islam without murdering infidels, this is only due to the natural sense of wrong and right within every normal human being. The people who practice it in a peaceful way are doing so only by ingoring the violent commands of their holy book. The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

 

[CptStern]

No. ANY free nation has the right to invade a rogue, slave dictatorship. They are an outlaw nation that needs to be set right for the good of it's citizens. No nation is obligated to invade them, but if they have an interest in it any free nation has the right to. Outlaw nations have no right to not be invaded. A free nation does not need the permission of any other nation, free or otherwise, to invade an outlaw nation. This is the only way to move forward. We must think of the greater good. All men have the basic right to be free. This is the most fundamental right of all. If a nation imposes slavery on it's citizens, it has no right to be safe from invasion.

"The United Nations Charter requires that countries exhaust all peaceful means of maintaining global security before taking military action, and permitting the use of force in self-defense only in response to actual or imminent attack"

here read this: The US signed the charter and therefore bound to it

 

[ComradeBadger]

Islam. Is. Not. A. Religioun. That. Encourages. Extremism.

It's people like you that let the pro-Iraq-war side down with your stupid views.

 

[CptStern]

Christianity is a religion of peace. Although some of it's members are meatheads, the religion itself is peaceful. Islam is not. Islam encouranges eradification of the infidels and horrendous violence against innocents. Givernments based on this religion are tyrannical and oppressive. Although some people are capable of practicing Islam without murdering infidels, this is only due to the natural sense of wrong and right within every normal human being. The people who practice it in a peaceful way are doing so only by ingoring the violent commands of their holy book. The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

are we talking about the same religion? christianity about peace????????? the Crusades, the inquisition, witch burning etc...these were peaceful events?

 

[babywax]

Okay - so one country decides to use force... What about international democracy? Shouldn't this be decided upon by a majority of nations?

What is the point of installing democracy in other countries if everything at the top level of society is going to be decided by one country?

The sanctions were imposed by the UN, and they were not obeyed by Saddam, but high level politics are not always, shall we say, entirely honest.

So if the terrorists starting targeting soldiers again (like when they set off that boat bomb next to the US aircraft carrier) then they'll be justified in using force?

They won't be justified, but they will atleast gain enough respect for us to listen to them. I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever for ANYONE who targets civilians. If they feel they must use force against innocent people (whether or not they see them as innocent is irrelevant, they aren't well enough informed to make the decision) then, atleast for me, their word carries no weight.

You still haven't addressed the issue of the extremists having no real recourse except for terrorist action. Even though the US is trying to install a democracy right now, in the past the only way for them to express themselves was through action.

I understand that they have no other course. They will soon (hopefully). However, this does NOT justify what their attacks.

And the "We're a democracy, they aren't" argument is invalid also.

I don't see why?

EDIT:
And I would like to make it clear I don't see anything wrong with most of Islam.

EDIT2:
This will hopefully be my last post

 

[Devilphish]

The United Nations Charter requiring countries to exhaust all peaceful means of maintaining global security before taking military action, and permitting the use of force in self-defense only in response to actual or imminent attack"

The UN is corrupt and useless. The UN will never bring change to the places that need it. Iraq defied the orders of the UN for many years, and they sat on their thumbs doing nothing. If we had not taken action and brought liberation to the people of Iraq, the UN would still be twiddling their thumbs 30 years from now, issuing resolutions and not acting when they are defied. When they show the world no action will be taken when resolutions are defied, they become useless. No free nation should be influenced by such a useless system. No free nation should give up it's right to act on it's own interests because of such a useless organization.

 

[CptStern]

The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

holy shit!!! where do you get this crap from?

 

[ComradeBadger]

Devilphish, I'm afraid if you don't cease your mindless abuse, this thread will be closed, and you may well face a ban of some length.

 

[CptStern]

The UN is corrupt and useless. The UN will never bring change to the places that need it. Iraq defied the orders of the UN for many years, and they sat on their thumbs doing nothing. If we had not taken action and brought liberation to the people of Iraq, the UN would still be twiddling their thumbs 30 years from now, issuing resolutions and not acting when they are defied. When they show the world no action will be taken when resolutions are defied, they become useless. No free nation should be influenced by such a useless system. No free nation should give up it's right to act on it's own interests because of such a useless organization.

ya you're right...the UN is useless...they should have charged the US with war crimes in the first gulf war...they had all the documents written up...oh and also for crimes against humanity in Panama, and Bosnia.

oh btw the US helped write the UN charters

 

[Devilphish]

are we talking about the same religion? christianity about peace????????? the Crusades, the inquisition, witch burning etc...these were peaceful events?

Those were violent people who took a peaceful religion and corrupted it to their own interests. The religion itself was not responsible. The religion of Islam is responsible for the tyrannical and oppressive governments in the mid-east because it encourages such. It's the people who practice Islam in peace who are not following all the commands.

 

[CptStern]

Devilphish, I'm afraid if you don't cease your mindless abuse, this thread will be closed, and you may well face a ban of some length.

not really my place to comment...but I dont think he should be banned for having an opinion...no matter how wrong it is...he hasnt said anything too hatefull...although the islam thing was rather close

 

[Pogrom]

The sanctions were imposed by the UN, and they were not obeyed by Saddam, but high level politics are not always, shall we say, entirely honest.

The resolutions were imposed by the UN, yes. But the US going in there was still tantamount to vigilanteism... i.e. NOT JUSTIFIED.

They won't be justified, but they will atleast gain enough respect for us to listen to them. I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever for ANYONE who targets civilians. If they feel they must use force against innocent people (whether or not they see them as innocent is irrelevant, they aren't well enough informed to make the decision) then, atleast for me, their word carries no weight.

Here is where you contradict yourself. They had been targeting soldiers before, but nobody listened to them with respect. If you were in their position, what would be the next logical step?

I understand that they have no other course. They will soon (hopefully). However, this does NOT justify what their attacks.

So they are supposed to just sit back and take it? You admitted hat they had no recourse. Were they just supposed to wait in hope that somehow some magical solution would present itself? Who would have predicted 4 years ago that America would take up nation-building again in the Middle East?

I don't see why?

EDIT:
And I would like to make it clear I don't see anything wrong with most of Islam.

EDIT2:
This will hopefully be my last post

 

[Devilphish]

Then answer this. Why doesn't a free nation of the right to invade a dictatorship nation? Why does the tyrannical government that oppresses and enslaves it's people have more of a right to keep it's people enslaved without interference from a free nation, and the enslaved and oppressed people have less of a right, or no right, to be liberated by the invading free nation? Who gave the tyrants the right to enslave and took away the peoples right to freedom and security in their own country? Why does an outlaw government who enslaves it's people have any rights to security from free nations at all?

 

[babywax]

The resolutions were imposed by the UN, yes. But the US going in there was still tantamount to vigilanteism... i.e. NOT JUSTIFIED.

Not justified? For how long did Saddam refuse to disarm?

Here is where you contradict yourself. They had been targeting soldiers before, but nobody listened to them with respect. If you were in their position, what would be the next logical step?

I've seen plenty of Iraqi's on Fox news (don't critisize me for watching it, I like O'Reilly and Cavuto). A lot hated Bush, a couple hated america. However, most seemed to like America, but this obviously can't be used as an indication that the middle-east likes america as the majority IN America will like America.
Right now they are listened to with LESS respect than before. They didn't get much of an audience before, but the audience they did get wasn't nearly as hateful towards them as now (I'm speaking about terrorists not muslims). Although they have a much larger audience, they are in a much worse situation.

Were they just supposed to wait in hope that somehow some magical solution would present itself?

I don't know all, I don't know what they should have done. I just know they shouldn't have done what they did.

 

[ComradeBadger]

not really my place to comment...but I dont think he should be banned for having an opinion...no matter how wrong it is...he hasnt said anything too hatefull...although the islam thing was rather close

Hence me saying may well. We don't ban for holding opinions, but that was pretty close to the bone.

Oh, and as a side point. Where would you rather live/work/raise a family...

Saddam's Iraq

Or the Iraq that should shortly be coming

?

 

[CptStern]

Hence me saying may well. We don't ban for holding opinions, but that was pretty close to the bone.

Oh, and as a side point. Where would you rather live/work/raise a family...

Saddam's Iraq

Or the Iraq that should shortly be coming

?

yes after I wrote that I re-read your post and I releazed you had said "may" be banned...but then it was too late to edit

It doesnt matter who is in charge of iraq...sooner or later it will revert to a dictatorship or worse a secular state...just like it did when the CIA supported Saddam after the 1963 coup that was orchestrated by the cia

 

[ComradeBadger]

So, let it be? You think we'll only make it work? Why bother to change anything, if it may not work

 

[babywax]

It doesnt matter who is in charge of iraq...sooner or later it will revert to a dictatorship or worse a secular state...just like it did when the CIA supported Saddam after the 1963 coup that was orchestrated by the cia

Well, I guess we'll see

 

[Javert]

then you sir, are clueless...

"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak."

Just some things we've done to gain their ire:
Unpopular, pro-democratic regime change.
Economic sanctions damaging the livelihoods of the populace.
Brutal air bombings causing destruction and deaths.
Capitalist control of oil and businesses, resulting in localized bankruptcy.
Public criticism and ridicule of their faith and custom in the media and in politics.

 

[Edcrab]

*starts taking bets to whether we end up creating a violent dictatorship in Iraq*

Part of the bet is you'll have to live there, so if I lose you'll all be dead. Wee.

Those were violent people who took a peaceful religion and corrupted it to their own interests. The religion itself was not responsible. The religion of Islam is responsible for the tyrannical and oppressive governments in the mid-east because it encourages such. It's the people who practice Islam in peace who are not following all the commands.

I'm sorry to say it depends on which "form" of Islam is being adhered to- as has been stated. Look at the Jehova's Witnesses- they follow an altered edition of what is usually accepted as the original version of the Bible. Theoretically, any religion could be twisted and corrupted by terrorists for their own purposes. "Default" (ha) Islam is oddly similar to Christianity.

 

[Javert]

Christianity is a religion of peace. The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

I hope admins can excuse my one and only time of pose-cussing by saying !@$%^.
I don't care if you have differing opinions, as a matter of fact I accept and promote unorthodox thought. But that is plain ignorance, unsupported in your statement and irrelevent to the issue at hand.
It's not religion, it's foreign policy and public prejudice on both sides.

 

[Tr0n]

I hope the admins or mods don't mind me saying this....but....

Devilphish you're a complete dumbass.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

that's "you're" not "your" :thumbs:

 

[Tr0n]

Oh yes thank you lil timmy....but I can't edit now.. :|

 

[Max_Payne]

well im canadian ... and im just gonna say this.... im a huge fan of the united states nothign wrong wit the country at all! very beautiful and cool. But man ohh man have u guys have had some **** ups for presidents. ....cough cough.. bush cough...

PEace

Mike
:cheers:

 

[Silent_night]

wow , pretty hot debate going on here, well i just wanna say i am muslim and it is a very peacfull religion(do some research on it) , beating women and killing innocent people has NOTHING to do with Islam. Muslims treat women with respect, now i cant say this for all muslims becuase it all depends on the person. A real muslim should not hate a person for being American or whatever, but whats wrong with our countires , is that people their dont learn, if they r being taught to hate Americans well, what else r they gonna learn? I dont hate Americans but i difinalty dont like all of them because they are not all that good either, we BOTH do mistakes. Pluse there are MANY stories u can find on arab sites (official sites) on American's killing innociant people , firing misslies , but u never hear these stories outside the arab world. Hopefully all these wars will end soon , i just hope Bush loses the next election. thanx


here is just a nice pic u can see , this was an earthquake that hit Turkey like about 6-7 years ago http://islamicweb.com/resources/turkey3.jpg

 

[Yakuza]

Actually, he is somewhat right. I mean, half of Europe hates Americans too, but they don’t shoot you guys down on a sight. Why? Because they have a good life.

If one is living with hate, how "good" of a life can he live.

 

[Yakuza]

holy shit!!! where do you get this crap from?

Probably the same place that you grabbed the assumption that Christianity is not peaceful because of 'some" people who commited un-christian things in the name of christianity.

are we talking about the same religion? christianity about peace????????? the Crusades, the inquisition, witch burning etc...these were peaceful events?

Christianity is not properly represented by the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. Though these things happened in the name of "Christianity" it does not mean that this is what Christianity teaches. Instead, Christianity professions conversion by love not by torture. Those who you used coercive means did so against the Christian scriptures.

Matt. 5:43-44, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ 44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."
Rom. 16:19, "For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good, and innocent in what is evil."
Col. 4:5-6, "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned, as it were, with salt, so that you may know how you should respond to each person."
1 Tim. 3:7, "And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he may not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
There have been times in the Christian church where those who have claimed to follow Christ have done horrible things. They have done these things not because Christ teaches them to, but because they have not listened to the word of God. As is frequently established in history when anyone comes into complete political and military control that abuse almost always follows. The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic invention intended to root out all sorts of "heresies." The Inquisition used torturous means to force confessions out of people. Thousands were killed mercilessly and unjustly. The Protestant Reformation distances itself from the Catholic Inquisition. However, it has its own sordid history and the witch trials we had here in America among some Puritans is an example. They allowed their paranoia and ignorance to overtake reason and scripture. As a result, many people were killed because they were accused of being witches -- and they weren't.
Again, this does not mean that Christianity is false anymore than the police force is false because one or two cops did bad things in the name of the law. Instead of looking at the two cops, the whole of the police force, its goals, other cops, and its history of sacrifice and protection must be examined as well. The same as Christianity. It has a great history of helping countless people, establishing orphanages, building shelters, helping famine ravaged countries, and seeking to aid the downtrodden.
If anyone wishes to condemn Christianity because of the failures of its members, then will they also look at its successes and approve of Christianity? It would only be fair to look at the whole of Christian history and more importantly at what the Bible actually teaches, in particular the New Testament, from which Christianity is derived.
Believe in Christianity because Jesus Christ claimed to be God in flesh, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and has given us the New Testament. Believe in Jesus because He performed miracles in front of eyewitnesses and He said that He was the way the truth in a life (John 14:6). Believe Christianity because of who Jesus is, not because of what some so called Christians did in error.

 

[Yakuza]

Oh and I'd just like to point out that in ALL organised religions, non-believers are looked down on or forcibly converted where possible so hoop-de-f*cking-doo for the idea that Islam is solely and completely condescending. If you're going to criticise something look at the bloody equivalents first, will you?

Hmmm, I guess you could say that Jesus "looked down" at the non-believers, but then again you kind of have to when nailed to a cross. And jeez its not like he even forgave them for doing it either.

 

[Yakuza]

If you guys would understand how alike Islam and Christianity are. We belive in the same god, they belive in Jesus etc.

yet its the differences however small they appear will seperate Islam and Christianity. Because we believe Jesus is in fact GOD, so we really dont believe in the same God.

 

[Tr0n]

yet its the differences however small they appear will seperate Islam and Christianity. Because we believe Jesus is in fact GOD, so we really dont believe in the same God.

Wait....wtf?I thought he had most of the powers GOD could do.But that didn't make him the creator/god.I'm confused.....

 

[Yakuza]

Wait....wtf?I thought he had most of the powers GOD could do.But that didn't make him the creator/god.I'm confused.....

note the New Testament scripture refers to Jesus and the Old Testament to GOD or Yahweh

Creator:

GOD, "YAHWEH"

Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
Isaiah 40:28, "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."

JESUS

John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

The "I am"

John 8:24, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)
John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" See Exodus 3:14
John 13:19, "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
See also Deut. 32:39


Judge

2 Tim. 4:1, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."
2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
Joel 3:12, "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side."
Rom. 14:10, "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

 

[Eejit]

He's talking about the holy trinity.