Why HL2DM is necessary, and how to go about it

Physicles

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I really like Half-life's deathmatch, and I want to see it in HL2 as well. In this post, I'll explain why making HL2DM is a good idea, and how the community should go about it. Of course, my opinions reflect the fact that I'm a HLDM fan (I'm in an XDM clan), an experienced programmer with a simple HL mod under my belt, and a physics geek. But please don't let that stop you from considering what I've written.

HLDM is the skeleton for all multiplayer mods -- all such mods are modified versions of the deathmatch source (or, later on, the TFC source). Note that most of the mods that were made, but not necessarily released, fell within a small distance of HLDM, since few had the resources at their disposal to create entirely new content (mods like NS and CS are the exception). The point is that most of the HL2 mods that will be created will fall within a small distance of the content (and code, and therefore game play) on which they were based.

Think about it. What would you rather see: hundreds of near-clones of CS:S, or hundreds of near-clones of HL2DM? That's what this boils down to. I'd argue that the game play possibilities derived from HL2DM (with weapons like the manipulator) are much more intriguing than those derived from CS:S. Note that this is a separate issue from which game is better in and of itself. The player-minutes don't lie: CS:S is more popular. But it's not as suitable as a base for small-scale mod development.

I love playing HL mods with little tweaks like Rocket Crowbar, Oz deathmatch, and Deathmatch Plus, each of which likely took fewer than 100 hours to create. I've spent hours upon hours in nearly empty DM+ servers just goofing around. IMAGINE what one could do with a DM+ version of HL2DM: building simple structures with the manipulator, crashing vehicles into each other and driving up canyon walls, sending stuff flying across the level with huge explosions, building a raft out of barrels and propelling yourself by shooting weights off the back end...

Picture this: you're a first-time mod maker, and you want to try some stuff out. Given that you have access to CS:S and HL2DM, you could either (1) play with the damage of certain guns in CS:S, which you can't test without having someone else in the server, or (2) make the manipulator gun more powerful and throw a car across a canyon. I know which one I'd pick.

It's absolutely critical that HL2DM be available to the mod community shortly after the SDK is released. Otherwise, mod makers will jump on the CS:S bandwagon, and we'll have the mess of CS:S clones.

I've browsed online a bit for mod teams that are going to make HL2DM once the SDK comes out. One is at http://www.jhgamers.com/mcg_forums/ . They seem focused on adding extra cool features and on creating new content. I haven't found any other sites after browsing for about 20 minutes -- though I'm sure there are others -- but most probably follow some variation on this theme, which is making HL2DM a feature-packed game in and of itself.

This isn't what Half-Life's deathmatch was intended to be. HLDM implements the minimal set of features for vanilla deathmatch, and no more. Want CTF or King of the Hill? Create a separate mod. The right way to go about HL2DM, then, is to mimic HLDM as closely as possible: create a skeleton with the BARE MINIMUM of features, make it gold-plated and bug-free, and release the source to the community, keeping it updated with each new SDK release. Without this kind of direction, what will there be in the HL2 community but tens of competing versions of HLDM, each with its own unique set of features?

This call to action is based on a bit of speculation; that is, I'm assuming that the SDK will only include CS:S in the way of multiplayer. But if the SDK includes HL2DM, why wouldn't Half-Life 2 include it? Perhaps Valve will actually release a version of HL2DM later on. Perhaps the Sven Co-op team, which is probably creating a co-op mode for HL2 (don't remember where I heard that), is also working on deathmatch.

Maybe I'm just too much of a fan(atic). But I see real unique game play potential with mods derived from something like HL2DM, and it would be a real shame not to see that potential realized.

Just my $0.02.

(Btw, I am willing to help out in such a project, although my time is severely constrained because of college.)
 
Woah, I read the first line, saw the length of the paragraph and thought 'f**k that for a game of soldiers'.

You could have coded the mod by the time it took you to write that.
 
Maybe not having HL2DM will get rid of all those pretty useless DM clones and force people to actually come up with some new content.

Sounds good to me.
 
Yeah but there's one flaw

The SDK contains an "incomplete" HL2DM for easy mod making
 
czrsink said:
Woah, I read the first line, saw the length of the paragraph and thought 'f**k that for a game of soldiers'.

You could have coded the mod by the time it took you to write that.


thats simular to what i fort lol
 
Neutrino said:
Maybe not having HL2DM will get rid of all those pretty useless DM clones and force people to actually come up with some new content.

What the? Why do YOU have to bother with the "DM clones"? They're just minor modifications to make the game more fun, for those who want it.
 
Mods aren't going to be based off CS:S.

The SDK will contain, and I quote, "multiplayer examples"
 
i think not having hl2dm is just gonna make everyone come up with their own hl2dm, which is gonna result in heaps of similar mods, just the way CS spawned a whole godload of spec ops garbage.
 
skipper said:
thats simular to what i fort lol
Why post that if A) It has no relevence to the thread and B) Is hardly english? Some people confound me.

I agree with you on many points Physicles, but the fact of the matter is I highly doubt Valve will release the CS:S source to the folks in the SDK. More than likely it'll be a deathmatchy base sort of code that people can modify to their hearts content. CS, for one, is quite a bit of changed code from HL2 and I imagine that the CS devs along with the Valve devs would rather see HL2 being mimicked than CS. Don't worry, the SDK will be a nice base for modmakers. I doubt that you'll see lots of CS clones (well... any more than you already see for HL1 that is.).

Btw, very nicely said Physicles. :D
 
What physicles is saying, as I understand it, is that the SDK should have a very basic DM already, so that people can start with the bare minimum and create more original mods, rather than starting with modded Dm or CS.

I think this is a great idea. And, I know of one mod maker who is going to start making a straight-up HL2DM as soon as the SDK is released. I'll try and find the link to their site.

We're talking no extra weapons or anything, just DM form HL2. Once that is done I'd guess they could work on adding new weapons and stuff. but at any rate, I'd like to see some new variations, but mostly just DM. and new levels.
 
BRODIEMAN2k4 said:
Yeah but there's one flaw

The SDK contains an "incomplete" HL2DM for easy mod making

Pi Mu Rho said:
Mods aren't going to be based off CS:S.

The SDK will contain, and I quote, "multiplayer examples"

Fantastic, I wasn't aware of that. Where'd you get that info from?

Wesisapie said:
i think not having hl2dm is just gonna make everyone come up with their own hl2dm, which is gonna result in heaps of similar mods, just the way CS spawned a whole godload of spec ops garbage.

...yeah, that's what I was trying to say in my post.

UmbrellaMaster, you have some good points. True, they won't release CS:S to the community.

Homercidal, thanks for your support. I guess what we really need now is better information on what's actually out there.

Thanks for your input, guys. You've eased my fears.
 
Physicles said:
I really like Half-life's deathmatch, and I want to see it in HL2 as well. In this post, I'll explain why making HL2DM is a good idea, and how the community should go about it. Of course, my opinions reflect the fact that I'm a HLDM fan (I'm in an XDM clan), an experienced programmer with a simple HL mod under my belt, and a physics geek. But please don't let that stop you from considering what I've written.

HLDM is the skeleton for all multiplayer mods -- all such mods are modified versions of the deathmatch source (or, later on, the TFC source). Note that most of the mods that were made, but not necessarily released, fell within a small distance of HLDM, since few had the resources at their disposal to create entirely new content (mods like NS and CS are the exception). The point is that most of the HL2 mods that will be created will fall within a small distance of the content (and code, and therefore game play) on which they were based.

Think about it. What would you rather see: hundreds of near-clones of CS:S, or hundreds of near-clones of HL2DM? That's what this boils down to. I'd argue that the game play possibilities derived from HL2DM (with weapons like the manipulator) are much more intriguing than those derived from CS:S. Note that this is a separate issue from which game is better in and of itself. The player-minutes don't lie: CS:S is more popular. But it's not as suitable as a base for small-scale mod development.

I love playing HL mods with little tweaks like Rocket Crowbar, Oz deathmatch, and Deathmatch Plus, each of which likely took fewer than 100 hours to create. I've spent hours upon hours in nearly empty DM+ servers just goofing around. IMAGINE what one could do with a DM+ version of HL2DM: building simple structures with the manipulator, crashing vehicles into each other and driving up canyon walls, sending stuff flying across the level with huge explosions, building a raft out of barrels and propelling yourself by shooting weights off the back end...

Picture this: you're a first-time mod maker, and you want to try some stuff out. Given that you have access to CS:S and HL2DM, you could either (1) play with the damage of certain guns in CS:S, which you can't test without having someone else in the server, or (2) make the manipulator gun more powerful and throw a car across a canyon. I know which one I'd pick.

It's absolutely critical that HL2DM be available to the mod community shortly after the SDK is released. Otherwise, mod makers will jump on the CS:S bandwagon, and we'll have the mess of CS:S clones.

I've browsed online a bit for mod teams that are going to make HL2DM once the SDK comes out. One is at http://www.jhgamers.com/mcg_forums/ . They seem focused on adding extra cool features and on creating new content. I haven't found any other sites after browsing for about 20 minutes -- though I'm sure there are others -- but most probably follow some variation on this theme, which is making HL2DM a feature-packed game in and of itself.

This isn't what Half-Life's deathmatch was intended to be. HLDM implements the minimal set of features for vanilla deathmatch, and no more. Want CTF or King of the Hill? Create a separate mod. The right way to go about HL2DM, then, is to mimic HLDM as closely as possible: create a skeleton with the BARE MINIMUM of features, make it gold-plated and bug-free, and release the source to the community, keeping it updated with each new SDK release. Without this kind of direction, what will there be in the HL2 community but tens of competing versions of HLDM, each with its own unique set of features?

This call to action is based on a bit of speculation; that is, I'm assuming that the SDK will only include CS:S in the way of multiplayer. But if the SDK includes HL2DM, why wouldn't Half-Life 2 include it? Perhaps Valve will actually release a version of HL2DM later on. Perhaps the Sven Co-op team, which is probably creating a co-op mode for HL2 (don't remember where I heard that), is also working on deathmatch.

Maybe I'm just too much of a fan(atic). But I see real unique game play potential with mods derived from something like HL2DM, and it would be a real shame not to see that potential realized.

Just my $0.02.

(Btw, I am willing to help out in such a project, although my time is severely constrained because of college.)


If your any type of authority on FPS genre you would know that HLDM is crap. To put it simply, things have moved on. It represents the dieing gameplay that all game creaters should avoid. Fancy graphics can't save bad gameplay Ref. (doom3) They won't save CSs either.

HLDM is old and doesn't deserve to be remade. I really don't understand what all you people see in it. I just see a dead program in gaming history. It served it's purpose now leave it alone.
 
Wesisapie said:
i think not having hl2dm is just gonna make everyone come up with their own hl2dm, which is gonna result in heaps of similar mods, just the way CS spawned a whole godload of spec ops garbage.

and yet all the CS clones that cropped up for HL were all based off HLDM.

Physicles: Alfred from Valve made that statement on the HL Coders mailing list.
 
Truly creative people won't be hampered by the fact that there is no Deathmatch. People will make what they want from it. Although I don't see too many being as good as the first bunch of mods for HL.

People are driven by greed these days. I think UT2k4 has the new modding youth. Prizes for creativity and public advertisement for your mod team. What does HL2 offer? A physics engine. I would be modding UT2k4.
 
Wonkers, I believe what Physicles is worried about is the ease of creating new mods from an HL2 DM base. Trying to create something new out of code that's already been modded (CS:S) is much tougher than trying to create something new out of a base code (HL2 DM). Physicles was stating that the mod community will be better off with some HL2 DM code to base their mods off of than CS:S code. But as I mentioned before, I doubt CS:S code will be released.

Think of it this way, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, Natural Selection, all brand new game types, were all based off of a base DM code. Basing those off of CS code would have more than likely been a bigger pain than they were worth.
 
wonkers said:
If your any type of authority on FPS genre you would know that HLDM is crap. To put it simply, things have moved on. It represents the dieing gameplay that all game creaters should avoid. Fancy graphics can't save bad gameplay Ref. (doom3) They won't save CSs either.

HLDM is old and doesn't deserve to be remade. I really don't understand what all you people see in it. I just see a dead program in gaming history. It served it's purpose now leave it alone.
if u ask most 14 year olds what they think of hl they would say its shit compared to what u can buy now.
no one really wants hl again, they want hl2
no one wants hldm again, they want hl2dm
can u see the difference?
hl2dm can have its time like hldm can
 
No one has gotten the SDK yet. Maybe it's easier than people think. Honestly I wouldn't know. I see your point.

I figured that all the people who had programming and modding skills would just know what to do. And isn't their a ton of HL modding resoucres out there? There has to be like thousands of pages on coding & modding with hammer.

If your gonna make a good game you know what your doing in the first place. Who knows. I sure don't. I just don't want to see People waste time on DM varients.
 
If your any type of authority on FPS genre you would know that HLDM is crap. To put it simply, things have moved on. It represents the dieing gameplay that all game creaters should avoid. Fancy graphics can't save bad gameplay Ref. (doom3) They won't save CSs either.

HLDM is old and doesn't deserve to be remade. I really don't understand what all you people see in it. I just see a dead program in gaming history. It served it's purpose now leave it alone.
HLDM may have sucked, but it was the basis of all mods created.
HLDM2 would have the same purpose.
 
To be honest, I still like HLDM. I played it bunches when it was new and recently gone back to playing it and had a blast!

True, I've played UT-based MP for a while now, but even that isn't revolutionary from the original Unreal MP. Some new mods, but basically just DM. It's great, but going back to HLDM was refreshing, and I think the new engine has a lot of potential.

I agree that things could get more interesting if Valve or someone were to sponsor modding contests. That could draw some of the modders from other engines, and spur some new ideas into action.

Basically I'm looking forward to HL2DM because I don't like the "Spec Ops" or "tactical" shooters. A good Map goes a long way into making DM enjoyable.
 
mutt said:
if u ask most 14 year olds what they think of hl they would say its shit compared to what u can buy now.
no one really wants hl again, they want hl2
no one wants hldm again, they want hl2dm
can u see the difference?
hl2dm can have its time like hldm can


First off I am not 14. DM in itself is basic competition for fps's. To me it's simple. DM to me is a term for a game type, not a multiplayer component. All the weapons from the singleplayer that spawn in a map where you run around and shoot other players. It's simple and old.

HL2DM couldn't even in theory get played more than CSs. I suppose it's only relevence would be to help modders as explained to me above.

I just can't understand the people who want DM for the fun of actually playing it. Then again I don't understand why people like to fix and drive old cars. (they are inferior cars) But some people like old stuff. Simple stuff. I guess someone will make a mod for you people.

That's about all my feelings on HLDM. It leaves me scratching my cranium.
 
wonkers said:
First off I am not 14. DM in itself is basic competition for fps's. To me it's simple. DM to me is a term for a game type, not a multiplayer component. All the weapons from the singleplayer that spawn in a map where you run around and shoot other players. It's simple and old.

HL2DM couldn't even in theory get played more than CSs. I suppose it's only relevence would be to help modders as explained to me above.

I just can't understand the people who want DM for the fun of actually playing it. Then again I don't understand why people like to fix and drive old cars. (they are inferior cars)
Some are not. They may have less features, but some are built to run years longer, with less cost in maintenance. And they are simpler than new cars, and cheaper. If kept nice, theie value can often go way up. Most new cars do not go up in value Also, most people who restore old cars also have a newer vehicle for use as a daily driver, because of their advantages.

But some people like old stuff. Simple stuff. I guess someone will make a mod for you people.

That's about all my feelings on HLDM. It leaves me scratching my cranium.


Which games do you prefer? CS has been done for so long now, it can hardly be considered "new".
 
It´s impossible to make HL2DM and have the manipulator gun. Just think about the extra server stress the physics engine gives. And the CS source physics aren´t even accurate enough to have chairs and tables flying all over the place.

It would work without the manipulator and i´m pretty sure that there will be a mod that enables HL2 weapons on the CS source maps.
 
wonkers said:
If your any type of authority on FPS genre you would know that HLDM is crap. To put it simply, things have moved on. It represents the dieing gameplay that all game creaters should avoid. Fancy graphics can't save bad gameplay Ref. (doom3) They won't save CSs either.

HLDM is old and doesn't deserve to be remade. I really don't understand what all you people see in it. I just see a dead program in gaming history. It served it's purpose now leave it alone.

You are wrong, DM is not dead, but nobody is adding anything to the game (and still there are enough people what love it)

I like to play team based games more (tfc, cs, rvr :) ) but I can remember the good old days of duke 3d Dm and thats the only reason why I look forward to duke 4E. Can't wait to pickup that shrinker or icegun, what made DM more fun then competive.
Valve has now its own unique fun weapon (manipulator gun) and i'm sure it would be loads of fun playing with that in high interactive levels :)

DM is also played a lot on lans (at work? :) ) because its fast and FFA can be a better setting on some occasions.

Besides when something is dead for long enough it becomes popular again since alot of players expirience it as new at that time. Can give enough examples in car and fasion styles to prove that point :)
 
Team games like Counter Strike and Unreal Tournament are the future of multiplayer. Deathmatch has become stagnant simply because any time you attempt to improve it, it ceases to be deathmatch. It's a very limiting game type that resists innovation.
 
Ah but DM can still be fun. If you dont go into it thinking it's going to be some new revolutionary type of gameplay, you wont be disappointed. DM may not be too big on the net anymore, but small LAN crews like mine DM is about all we can play and still have fun. Try playing a round based game like CS and it gets old in a hurry since there's about 4-6 of us per LAN party.

It may be old, but it's lasted since pre-3D days (ala Doom 1, Duke Nukem 3D, etc), so that's got to tell you something. Just because YOU don't play DM, doesnt mean NO ONE does. *shrug* I see no reason to be actively against Valve making an HL2DM. They have enough manpower obviously to work on multiple games at once, and adding HL2DM to the mix only adds to the options of mods.
 
wonkers said:
If your any type of authority on FPS genre you would know that HLDM is crap. To put it simply, things have moved on. It represents the dieing gameplay that all game creaters should avoid. Fancy graphics can't save bad gameplay Ref. (doom3) They won't save CSs either.

HLDM is old and doesn't deserve to be remade. I really don't understand what all you people see in it. I just see a dead program in gaming history. It served it's purpose now leave it alone.


Everyones in a while it's fun. You cant replace the gameplay, it is unique to the hl2 weapons, the tripmines, snarks etc. Just because most online games are dm, doesnt mean new ones should be any different, they add their own flavour to the mix.
 
Well, the whole discussion shouldn't be whether DM is fun or not. It should be about why Valve, if they provided the core MP components, couldn't have at least given rudimentary DM options and a couple of maps.

Hopefully there will be enough there to mod from.

Surely the SP game is fantastic, but MP is what gives a game longevity. And even basic MP is better than nothing.
 
wonkers said:
HLDM is old and doesn't deserve to be remade. I really don't understand what all you people see in it. I just see a dead program in gaming history. It served it's purpose now leave it alone.

In your opinion, not everyone elses. There is still a large community for HLDM, but you wouldn't know that, cause its a "dead program."
 
Well said physicles, you bring up some excellent points. I completely agree with what you said - and am also comforted by the fact that 'multiplayer examples' are going to be included. They are crucial to mod teams. As anyone creative would know, it's rarely good to start working on a project, be it painting, song, book, whatever that's already been started.

Try painting on a half done canvas :stare:

I don't think regular dm will ever die - there's always room for a little vanilla on the side. It will never be hugely popular, but I think it's appeal will hold steadily.

*phew* i'm so glad those multiplayer examples are included.
 
deathmatch is fun between people that you know. Not so much fun against strangers, but it still deserves to exist.

I don't like CS. Never did, Probably never will. However I would like to get the oppertunity to fight other people with hl2 weapons on hl2 maps. Thats where hl2dm comes in
 
Yo, Homies.

For clarification, I prefer DM, or CTF or TeamMatch, or whatever, to tactical shooters, but then I don't play online. I play a very little bit of SP and once in a while we LAN game it. It's much more fun to pick on your friends, right there next to you than some stranger typing trash from hundreds of miles away.

Also, here is a link to at least one DM mod builder:

HL2 DM
 
I still want the Combine vs Resistance mod to come to life.
 
I appreciate all your comments, guys.

Thanks for the link, Homercidal. Pi Mu Rho, how would I get on the HL Coders mailing list?

It's nice to know that multiplayer examples will be included with the SDK.

To make a long story short, HL2DM doesn't justify its own existence, since it's not that popular. What will justify its existence is what's created from it.

Deathmatch still has a place in most of our hearts, even if it's the kind of place that one only visits once a month. But this doesn't justify its continued existence. There's no reason to include HL2DM simply on game play (the only reason HLDM was so popular for so long was because it's the default multiplayer component of Half-life). I happen to like HLDM; the majority of gamers do not.

But as I stated before, I think HL2DM is a good idea because of the gameplay options that can be derived from it. Things like king of the hill and especially phantom (two of four gameplay types in my quasi-finished HL mod) are hugely popular at LAN parties.

Flyingdebris said:
However I would like to get the oppertunity to fight other people with hl2 weapons on hl2 maps.
Hmmm, now that I think about it, perhaps a lot of people will be so enamored with HL2 single player that they'll want their fill of deathmatch and co-op too. Only time will tell.
 
I am also a physics geek. :p

If the SDK contains an "incompleate HL2DM", then couldn't someone make a "compleate HL2DM" rather easily and quickly?
 
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