Why no waves?

G

Guest

Guest
I was wondering why there are now waves when a object or a person jumps into the water. The VSource is one of the best physics engine at this time and I still don't get it why there isn't dynamic water and waves. The main reason I don't like the Hl1 engine cause of lack of special effects when someone jumps into the water. I do like the effect when objects laying in the water and blurring cause of the other waves*

* = always moving waves. see docks media
 
There's already a huge amount of data processed in order to produce the effects you're seeing already- adding ripples, etc would put a huge hit on your processor.
 
Because I think the water is just a shader texture applied to a surface, and doesn't react as real waves (like in Outcast). But there are splaches and drips though :]
It would have been cool to have realistic waving water, but maybe it sucks too many CPU/GPU ressources...
 
You should try searching the mb: there are many many threads on this explaining exactly why it's impossible with current hardware.

I actually wrote a bit of a physics article on this to explain the problems. But the gist of it is that Source's physics model deals with rigid bodies (if you know physics, you'll know what that means). It doesn't do physics based deformation or (directly) stress breakage, BOTH of which are what would be needed, at a minimum, to do realistic water. Even then, it's a huge huge undertaking, because it wont REALLY work until the water is basically a bunch of smaller-than-viewable simulated particles with a surface tension holding them together. That's a crazy amount of processor work to do: far beyond even next-gen hardware.

Source's bump-mapped water is pretty incredible already without me worrying too much that I wont be able to pick some water up with my "jug" weapon...
 
Hehe...waves would crush probably 80% of people's computers and result in massive slowdown. I'll take what I can get, and wait for the future whent they can really pull true water dynamics off without sacrificing anything.
 
i cant belive theres no sand i would like to build little sand castles and then we can have a tournament to see who can build the largest.
 
Balders Gate: Dark Alliance for PS2 had extremely realistic wave and water effects. Every time someon would shoot an arrow into the water, jump in, or slowly wade through it would react realistically. Not to mention you could leave wake, etc. And it all changed dynamically depending on your movement.


I know it's unfair to compare consoles to PCs, as they have a lot of advantages, but I'm sure Valve could could come up with a similar system for Source even if it was only shown on the newer cards.
 
Originally posted by McWarren
There's already a huge amount of data processed in order to produce the effects you're seeing already- adding ripples, etc would put a huge hit on your processor.
Click to expand...

word
 
Originally posted by Tropico
i cant belive theres no sand i would like to build little sand castles and then we can have a tournament to see who can build the largest.
Click to expand...

i dare you!
 
There's this jet-ski and boat racing game for PS2 I forget what its called. I rented and played it about a year ago.

I remember that it had some very nice real-time wave effects. The water effects were amazing. They looked realistic to me.

Your jet-ski makes big realistic splashes as you go in and out of the surface. Check it out if you have a console, I don't think its available on PC.
 
Of course boat racing/fighting or whatever can take place in realistic water. Because they don't hog nearly as much memory. Only thing they have to draw is the water/craft/damage physics. HL2 has to draw tons of physics = rescource hog
 
ut 2003 waves

In ut2003 there are waves when you move or shot in the whater, although the waves are big, and not very real but its more cool that if they aren´t, isn´t it ?
 
I think the game I'm referring to is VR Power Boat Racing.

It looked cool when I first played but now probably looks dated. The water effects looked good but were low-res and not very detailed. Probably used a lot of good animations for the wave effects but I can't say for sure. Would have to play it again.
 
jet moto for n64 had awesome water and realistic waves and wakes
 
1. None of the above examples are real time physicaly simulated water effects. Just tricks and effecs. sorry.

2. The reason gordon doesent make any effect when he touches the water is because. well. There is no actualy gordon model is there. I mean Its just you. The view. If you look down you dont see his body.

Thats just my theory.
It could also be another *We turned off because it looked beter in the demo* things

who knows
 
Those games dont have physics based water models. They just use standard effects (sprites, particles, and wave models) to simulate things like splashes and ripples. Nowhere near the same thing, and HL2 certainly already has those things in effect (though I think they need to set their ripples to last longer)
 
Speaking of Gordon not having an actual body, Valve has to put in a model eventually, or it's going to detract from the quality of the game. Like in the Kleiner's lab video, it would have been cool if you could see Gordon's reflection in the monitor.
 
Cant be THAT hard to make some small waves in the water, can it?
I mean they are there and looking pretty ok at least, in quite a few older games (I dont care if its fake or not, as long as it looks like waves its ok I dont care how its done).

Like UT2003, Unreal 2, Morrowind.....damn I cant remember any others, but I think there are for sure a few titles that has it so it for sure aint impossible :)

Though some games with incredible water, like Pirates of the Caribbean, does NOT have waves after your character walks in it, so guess it doesn't matter very much ;)
 
Originally posted by Peks
jet moto for n64 had awesome water and realistic waves and wakes
Click to expand...

Never compare consoles to computers when it comes to hardware...
 
Originally posted by Apos

Source's bump-mapped water is pretty incredible already without me worrying too much that I wont be able to pick some water up with my "jug" weapon...
Click to expand...

jug weapon ...LOL
 
Adding cloth like deformations for water like in UT2k3 would probably kill off the refraction effects or add a lot more work to make it look so good.

It was probably a choice to leave water flat but not look flat. It might not even be flat in some parts of the game. We dont know yet.
 
If all you are interested in is small waves, what problems do you have with the docks video then? It definately looks like the surface is moving. And nothing beats that differential refraction/reflection effect. If what you are talking about is ripples, I think their splash/ripple effects look great: they just need to last longer.
 
Originally posted by marksmanHL2 :)
1. None of the above examples are real time physicaly simulated water effects. Just tricks and effecs. sorry.

2. The reason gordon doesent make any effect when he touches the water is because. well. There is no actualy gordon model is there. I mean Its just you. The view. If you look down you dont see his body.

Thats just my theory.
It could also be another *We turned off because it looked beter in the demo* things

who knows
Click to expand...


well valve keeps saying gordon is physically simulated, like if you jump on a barrel and walk backward it'll roll forward, etc..etc...so..yeah, and, they said it would be possible to show the legs of the character when you look down but they chose not to in the game, but mods can do it.
 
Xtasy0, I sent the email to gabe about whether you could see your player model when you looked down. :p. Also i thought about the physicaly simulated thing.
Which is why i put in the thing about taking it out just for the demo :p
 
Originally posted by Apos
You should try searching the mb: there are many many threads on this explaining exactly why it's impossible with current hardware.

I actually wrote a bit of a physics article on this to explain the problems. But the gist of it is that Source's physics model deals with rigid bodies (if you know physics, you'll know what that means). It doesn't do physics based deformation or (directly) stress breakage, BOTH of which are what would be needed, at a minimum, to do realistic water. Even then, it's a huge huge undertaking, because it wont REALLY work until the water is basically a bunch of smaller-than-viewable simulated particles with a surface tension holding them together. That's a crazy amount of processor work to do: far beyond even next-gen hardware.

Source's bump-mapped water is pretty incredible already without me worrying too much that I wont be able to pick some water up with my "jug" weapon...
Click to expand...

i guess since the ut2 engine can do it the source can't....
you don't need atomic particle engine to simulate water, first of all you only render the pixels that are being shown, games don't have molecular masses and atomic formation for pixels lol

waving water that reacts to debree, player models, ect is probably in the game already you can't really tell by the video. the water seems to be calm. im pretty sure its on the game but i dont think its soo dynamic that you can pour it in glasses and split it in parts ect, we need couple of years for that.
 
Displacement maps can be used to make water have waves. It IS possible now. But its hard. Just look at the screan show with the boat with the people waveing on it. If those arnt waves i dont know what are.

But truly dynamic water is a long way off. The problem with dynamic water is that it has to be able to change its shape fully so it moulds itself to a new container AND keeps the same volume!

difficult eh
 
i guess since the ut2 engine can do it the source can't....
Click to expand...

UT2 engine can't do it, and neither can source

you don't need atomic particle engine to simulate water, first of all you only render the pixels that are being shown, games don't have molecular masses and atomic formation for pixels lol
Click to expand...

We're talking about physics, not rendering. The reason water moves and acts the way it does is because it's much closer to a bunch of molecules loosely held together with a surface tension than it is a solid, rigid object.
 
UT2003 does it. when you shoot water or walk around in it, it makes waves. The water doesn't look as good as HL2, but it is effected by physics.

I usually turn waves off because I want more FPS :D
 
Originally posted by Apos
UT2 engine can't do it, and neither can source
Wrong again, yes it can play the game.
Originally posted by Apos
We're talking about physics, not rendering. The reason water moves and acts the way it does is because it's much closer to a bunch of molecules loosely held together with a surface tension than it is a solid, rigid object.
Click to expand...
Really????
the games don't need to make it so complicated. as to make it work in real life. they have many methods in which to do so, we're not asking that for water that pours out of containers boils and the steam is actually a part of the water mass and so on. we're talking about a water surface, if you shoot it, it makes waves (3d waves) if you watch the stupid docks video you can't see the waves because its not surfing season. but it does have waves you can look at the far side on the left and see that the water is going up and down a bit.
Click to expand...
 
Although im guessing here i imagine that the source engine most likely does have splashes and ripples when you shoot it (we have no evidence to the contrary?) and there is a good chance it has the same with gordons body. The movie doesent show this when he falls in but we have to take into account thats a relatively old version and alot has been done since then and as far as i know there is no official word from valve as to if its in or not.
 
Speaking of boats, it would totally rock if HL2 has driveable speed boats, or maybe jet skis!
 
Actually, Havok has water dynamics built into it if i'm not mistaken. And it isn't as hard on processing as you guys make it out to be.
It isn't simulating the water on a partical level, but instead it displaces the mesh that represents the surface. As a result, you can't have waves that curl, or splashes from these dynamics alone, but splashes can be done with particals in conjunction with this method.

Adam
 
UT2003 does it. when you shoot water or walk around in it, it makes waves. The water doesn't look as good as HL2, but it is effected by physics.
Click to expand...

No, they are simply static effects, no different than what HL2 seems to have.
 
There's no way Valve made water that gorgeous without figuring out a way to simulate waves. While it's not particularly evident in the docks video, there are a number of things that lead me to believe that's just a simple mock-up level for demo purposes only and is most likely based on a fairly early build of the engine (no environment shadows, 2D sky, crude weapons effects, and so on.)
 
Originally posted by Apos
No, they are simply static effects, no different than what HL2 seems to have.
Click to expand...

no

its not like decals. its a physics based plain that ripples up and down
 
It doesnt have waves, it has very advanced sprites. The water would have to indeed be made up of tiny little particals, lots and lots of them. And each one has to have its own physics system so it can interact (like a souce engine body) with the other water particals, and the sides of the lake. Your CPU couldnt handle it, and youd be down to a frame a minute.
 
Originally posted by urseus
It doesnt have waves, it has very advanced sprites. The water would have to indeed be made up of tiny little particals, lots and lots of them. And each one has to have its own physics system so it can interact (like a souce engine body) with the other water particals, and the sides of the lake. Your CPU couldnt handle it, and youd be down to a frame a minute.
Click to expand...


talking about HL2?
 
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