Why Work on Stupid Mods?

[Tsurphr]

uh, whatever

...sorry to be saying all this. My pursuit to correct people continues. As long as I see people like Cliffy B, I will always know that glory is a drug. Addictive and sourly corrosive.

And who commissioned you with the job of correcting people? Are you going to use your magnificent thesaurus skills to wow people with bad cliches in your quest against prosaism? I find your pompous banter about as impressive as Tonya Harding's ice skating.

So tell us Dario, what makes your mod so freakin special? You go on this huge rant basically insulting the mod community's intelligence, summarizing their creative efforts as unoriginal hapless dribble. I also read your other post describing your mod, and I'd like to know what makes you think that yours is so much better. All you're doing is ripping off HL2DM and throwing in some new weapons and maps. Whatever kind of mods that people decide to make is their business and their perogative, and it is most certainly not your place to judge or criticize. So why don't you put your own self-proclaimed genius to work and make a real, totally original, fun and engaging mod that isn't a ripoff, then come back here and spew your self-righteous fluff.

 

[Dario D.]

Thanks, but no-thanks.

A: I never once mentioned my mod, nor am trying to promote myself. Did I not just mention how I try to avoid glory? I've been working on my mod since June, first for Unreal, and now for HL2, and never ONCE adertised it, posted any threads about, or got any publicity for it, except when I needed to find someone to help me with it.

B: My mod is as far from HL2DM as could possibly be. Did I not just mention how much of a failure mods can be when they rip off of other thigns? This mod is a rip of NOTHING. Read this:
http://www.deefrag.com/hl2/war.htm

It's a very formal mod for HL2, with the story of HL and the caracters, and a few logical ideas used by lots of games (like buying weapons and taking control points), which are logical representations of reality to help keep the game deep, interesting, and based at least somewhat on reality - but the gameplay is of something far, far different, and never done before. Reading the whole thing will show that playing it is similar to nothing else.

-

90% of what you said hits the target dead-center, except the wrong target.

That's why I said; Thanks, but no-thanks.

And I'm so sorry my mod got involved.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

And who commissioned you with the job of correcting people?

I did. It's usually my job, but I've gone on a short break.

Glory can blind, but no matter what you're making, you'll want people playing it. Which is the glory part. People want glory in different levels: some want the interviews, some want people worshipping their every move, and some just want to see their name on their work that's being enjoyed by other players. I try to put myself in the third category, because Coding's the one thing I'll probably ever be good at. That, and drinking. I'd like people to know my talents, to play something I've made, to appreciate me. Although it'd be appreciated to an extent, I'm not really out to get people bowing to me over my uber-1337ness. If I did, then I'd have spent all my coding time producing concept art, maps, and models, as they are the easiest to display and cause people to get pumped.

Aiming for glory is what every modder dreams of. Aiming for an achievable level of glory is what they should be doing.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Spectre01]

I agree, some mods that are in development right now are just stupid. Why make crappy mods that very few people will play. I haven't seen many decent mods in the news.

 

[Ennui]

Although the mod scene is probably THE salvation of gaming - you know how innovation and evolution occurs much faster in small, unconnected groups - you have to realize that innovation is NOT as important as gameplay and fun.

Red Orchestra won because it was and is an exemplary mod, regardless of innovation. Sure, there are mods with more creative and original ideas, but RO is fun, engaging, and well-made. They deserve the prize.

 

[Geronimous]

You forget the most basic rule of MOD making, Dario...

You, or a team, should make a MOD for yourselve(s). If it becomes succesful, it is a big bonus. a MOD is something people make because THEY like to see it...

You however seem to be quite full of yourself. Can you predict what the next Counter-Strike will be? No. So stop posting useless rants. I think it is really sad to see somebody post so much on what makes a mod succesful. I'd just love to see your oh so succesful mod that made you richer than Bill gates, Dario.

I hate smartasses.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

He's actually trying to combat the multitude of threads stating things like "Making a mod! We're going to use the CS source code to remake James Bond in the Source engine! I need coders (17), mappers (6), musicians (12), and modellers(2)"

These folks don't have any idea what they're doing (example - CS source code isn't public), they're using IP without permission, and they're not doing anything but "co-ordinating". And the thing is, people with potential skill are actually joining them, only to have it fall apart, and become disillusioned with modding. And you'll notice that the majority of these types of mod are trying to copy either a copyrighted idea (James Bond, Resident Evil, etc), or an existing mod (Counterstrike). To extend this, look at the number of different Opposing Force mods that have popped up in the last month.

You, or a team, should make a MOD for yourselve(s). If it becomes succesful, it is a big bonus. a MOD is something people make because THEY like to see it...

The problem is, these teams that pop in and out of existence are lead by talentless morons. I mean, they don't bring any skills to their mod beyond "ideas" and "leadership". They aren't looking to create, but get others to create for them. They're in it to leech off of others' skills.

Still, no use complaining, as the mods will break themselves down. People will learn to avoid joining "stupid" mods.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Kalashnikov]

This rant is almost like saying:

"Don't start at the bottom at learn the most valuable experience, start much higher and get yelled at for being inexperienced."


EDIT: I strongly agree with Angry Lawyer on the points about how some leaders "bring nothing to the table" for a modification. Strong leadership and direction is what helps a mod succeeded (along with a strong-willed team for the project you are undertaking).

Many mods have original ideas and great ideas, just not applied correctly. For an example, take steam: It is an absolutely brillant idea to allow hard working developers reap the rewards for their hard work and not have producers take the profits and it also aids in instant access to games you've purchased from anywhere, and smoother updates. Except when it was first released, it was poorly marketed and was found to be a "pain in the ass" to operate and keep it running well, but it evolved into something gamers must now appreciate as the future. I'm not saying STEAM is like a mod, but its evolution is much like what a mod team can undergo, even though their foundations are weak.


EDIT2: I must agree with Gerenimous (spelling, my bad). When you make a modification, you make it because you want to play it and you want to see it out there: not for fame or fortune. If you jump in to only increase you're fame across a community, well, you've gone and done the worst thing possible. With many modifications, I see little talent in terms of expertise, but the dedication is there and its something that mod team wants to play and not because people will flock to them for it. At Black Mesa: Source, we have had many people come up and say "why bother" and other such comments. Why? Because we want to play the game on Source the way it was meant to be. We're not looking for fame and fortune (although fortune would be nice ), we're building it because we want to. Because we want to play it when its done. Because we want to say "we did it, cool. What's next?".

 

[Dario D.]

When you make a modification, you make it because you want to play it and you want to see it out there: not for fame or fortune.

My desire exactly. I'm just so bored with games of today that are so simple and dry, that I usually find myself making maps (and now mods) simply so that I can play something funner.

With the mod I'm working on (each person here now speaking for his own mod it seems) my greatest desire is to FINISH it one day, open the server browser, see 10,000 jam-packed servers, then sit down and actually play it, for the next couple of years. :thumbs: :bounce:

-

I also wanted to express my thoughts about Black Mesa: Source. I could never say anything publicly about mods that I don't have faith in, but BM:S is one that I think is a great project.

Black Mesa: Source, even though it's a remake of HL, is one kind of mod that is almost guaranteed success. The whole idea - bringing a tried-and-true great game to the next level - is an honest, clear-sailing endeavor that everyone knows will be good to some degree, at least.

If you're unsure about joining a mod, join this one, because there's no mistaking the direction this mod is heading. A blind man could see that this is an honest, good mod.

Now, some people say, "why bother", but everyone is definately going to be playing it and having a good time, no doubt, so imho it's very worth it.

-

Earlier someone said something about "being able to describe your mod in one sentence". If you were working on BM:E, it'd be so easy. "It's Half-Life, but better".

Other games and mods that are really good in formula:

Battlefield 1942: Two massive teams unleashed on a giant battlefield use vehicles and different weaponry classes to fight for control of spawn points and push back the other team.

Desert Combat: Just Battlefield 1942 with modern-day weapons, vehicles, and battlefields.

Your mod: I hope it's something fun! :angel: :thumbs:

It's NEVER too late to turn your mod into something good if you don't think it is already. NEVER too late... :thumbs:

 

[Dario D.]

I hate posting long posts

 

[Geronimous]

Well... that just comes to another conclusion..

why would you care so much about other people making crappy mods that never take off? Real artists and modders (the talented ones) tend to pick to join mods that will go strong in the first place.

 

[Dario D.]

I don't really mind whether or not the mods make it anywhere.

I care about the time wasted... about the people... and how much hard, long, painful, frustrating work gets thrown out, and often makes them give up and not want to try it again... for fear of it happening again.
-
And that's true what you said, that a lot of "better" artists are picky about what mods they work on,... but the little guys will also one day become "better" artists. Life would be better if every mod were a good one, so that the little guys who have less experience can get their experience and skill points by working on a "good mod" that, even if they make a lot of mistakes, at least the good part of their work can see the light of day with much satisfaction.

Making sure to only work on or start good mods is the best way to enjoy it's great satisfaction if you ever finish it. Otherwise, if you just finish a dumb mod, who cares?

Experience is good. But was the mod?

 

[Cole]

I don't think that Coders or Artists would be the best leaders.

I don't think any one person should be the leader. If you were to create a mod you should have an artist, coder, and idea thinker all come up with how it's going to work, what to try for in the gameplay, etc..

The idea thinker comes up with an idea, the coder tells him if he can or can't do it.
By no means am I implying that a mod team should be 3 people though.

One leader to me is never enough. If you making being the leader a joint operation I think you could achieve better results into what you want to see as well as fun.

I do know sometimes you can run into problems over who wants what, but things like that you have to try what works best to get the results you want.

Experience is good. But was the mod?

Yes the Experince is good, and it will help you for when you try again . If you try again, which you should.


Im just voice my opinon that you need more than just a Coder for your leader. But you do need people with good ideas as well as a person who knows the limiations.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

In my opinion, people should return to the days of one-man teams...

I'm not saying that Coders do make the best leaders - I just think that leaders should have at least SOME practical skill in the making of their mods.

As an analogy, picture two commanders in armies. One sits on his horse at the top of a hill, never gets into the battle, and just orders them from afar. The other has a sword in his hand, and is leading the charge into battle.

Which one are people more likely to listen to?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dario D.]

One-man teams would be best...

But I can't put out that much work...

Unless it's a mini-mod... :O

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, I'm converting HL2 into an RTS, and I'm a lone coder/mapper/everythinger. Although, to be fair, I don't have to model much, as it's using what's already in the game.

One-man mod teams are underrated. They work silently, and just jump out at you. Like a lawyer with an injunction.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[xdiesp]

no lone man could ever achieve a large base mod,believe me

 

[Llama]

um Dario can you give an example of a mod? We currently have no idea how things will shape out

 

[Angry Lawyer]

no lone man could ever achieve a large base mod,believe me

Wanna bet?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Llama]

Wanna bet?

-Angry Lawyer

hes probably right, one man would take years to make a good mod on his own - hed have to model, level desightn, texture, code all by himself

 

[short recoil]

I'm with Angry Lawyer on this, i mean the original counter strike was a one man job......i have actually seen very few worthwhile mods that have massive teams, if any.

I often see mods with massive "n00b teams" .....like about 8 mappers that have all started a month ago.......and the map between them turns out worse than 1 guy making a mod who can map, code, model e.t.c

There are too many mod teams making a mod "for the hell of making a mod" .........they are wasting their time.

If i had a quid for every "oh new mod idea, need coders, mappers, modellers" i would have enough to buy myself a new car!

 

[Llama]

really? God i need to open my mind a bit.
what do you think of Rouge Threat or Black Mesa:Source

 

[xdiesp]

Angry Lawyer: mine was actually a self-referenced joke ;-D (this new signature is obscene,anyway)

 

[Llama]

Substance rox my ass

 

[xdiesp]

I had this idea to change the mod's name in "The Xdiesp Supremacy"

 

[Angry Lawyer]

really? God i need to open my mind a bit.
what do you think of Rouge Threat or Black Mesa:Source

I've found there are three major categories of mod.

1. One man mod. I.e. me, XDI, and a few other ones that people won't notice for a while. These have the advantage of not having loads of team members failing to pull their weight. It's all down to the one guy/gal to go as fast as he/she wishes.

2. Big team mod type A. (One with members with actual skills). As an example, Neoshock, Black Mesa:Source, SvenCoop, and a large number of others (don't hate me if I didn't mention your mod in there, because I'm only picking the top of my mind).
These tend to be the popular ones with the community, and are destined to either wow everyone, or fall apart from some petty dispute in the team.

3. Big team mod type B. Now, these are the teams I hate (not mentioning any names, you know who you are). These guys have a mod team leader who's not hit puberty yet, and post regularly on "Help Wanted" boards with badly written messages saying "I need six coders plz!" and stuff like that. They end up with about 3 web designers, a load of "ideas people", a number of people who only started mapping a few weeks ago, and a guy who produces some really poor, boxy, unskinned renders (usually weapon renders). And no coders, because coders are usually smart enough to avoid this type.

Now, the original thread starter said he hated "Stupid mods" and didn't give a definition of what a "Stupid mod" was. I think the majority of you guys suddenly thought "OMG what if he's implying me!?" and took offence. In my books, a stupid mod is one that's being worked on by the third of the three teams. I think he was implying my point too.

And Llama,I have been working on my mod for a couple of years (the engine switch didn't help), but as I'm using a lot of content from the HL2, I've got a smaller workload.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dario D.]

Yeah, I meant the 3rd type...

A bit moreso, I meant any mod at all that's based on a "wierd idea", flimsy gameplay, or just not thought-out at all... at least not thought-out any more than a simple, vague image of what it would REALLY be like to play.

In such cases, they will be VERY surprised when they realize it's not at all what they thought it would be... because quite frankly, they didn't "thought" it would be anything. They hoped, but they didn't bother using mind-vision or proper planning to see what gameplay was going to actually turn out like.

- I agree though; your points seem very valid to me. Of the three mod teams, type 3 is most likely to fail... But even giant companies of top-notch people make stupid games - so a really good mod team can still output garbage without good game-design or at least a solid remake of existing gameplay.

 

[Dario D.]

New post: (yes, I've heard of the Edit button)

I just thought of a really good way to save yourself lots of time and trouble with your mods:

Take the "good gameplay" test to see if your mod is ready for prime-time yet:

Take each and every interesting weapon and write a fictional account of what it can do, and it what it's like to use. List all the fun things you can do with it in your game.

Write things that could happen. For example: Using the strip-mine, you rig things like cars, trucks, doors, and different things with explosives, then when someone uses them they detonate. Put one on a door, then blow someone up when they open it.
(of course that's kind of cheap, but that's exactly how you find flaws and fix them BEFORE making the weapon and realizing later that it's useless - write about things, and see if they will really be as fun or as good as you think)

You know that saying, "Know thyself"... Well, there's nothing more important for modders than to "Know thy mod".

And there's no better way to know your mod than write a detailed account of each item, weapon, gameplay feature, etc... Doing so will give you a GREAT understanding of your game, and after that you'll just KNOW if your mod is good or not.

Oh, and might I add; no deceiving yourself. Think clearly and don't convince yourself that a bad idea can be a good one. That happens a lot when there's something you really like that you don't want to let go of.

Remove it, change it, or fix it, but don't leave it.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Weird ideas can work, but only if they are fully thought through. Too many people are just using gimmicks to try to make their mod good, and they don't think of anything past that point.

Equally, some mods are too rooted in trying to recreate a popular mod to get very far. What's the point of making a Counterstrike-style game when people can just play Counterstrike?

Planning is key, as you've said.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dario D.]

Thanks.
-

And now... this thread can die...

I'm quite, quite, QUITE done explaining my part. :x

I just hope modders take this and really, really think their mods through and make something good of them, so they don't waste their time, and the time of all their team members.

Making a successful mod is easy if you "know thy mod".


The end.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

You're a smart man, Dario.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[bboymatty]

sometimes the best mods are one man jobs, and they can even outlast the big ones.

For example, my favourite mod would have to be 'Bootleg Squadrog' a relatively short (2 missions) single player modification for opposing force which just totally rocked.

The guy who made it, Blender, put a lot of time into it to come up with original ideas, missions and far more NPC-related events. Nothing happened without a NPC right with you with something to say about it. It explained itself and the missions incredibly well and left you with a feeling that said "im glad i spent the time playing this"

Ill never forget running around on the bridge trying to help black ops guys get to the extraction point while a group of grunts were engaging the big brained aliens flying in from over the canyon with their machine guns and MP5s, with spotlights rotating over the area. It was great, and something that never occured in Opposing force so it was original to the max as well

Mods which can achieve that kind of realism, originality and intensity are the ones that go down in game history. Im tired of people just regurgitating shit that we see everywhere - "QUICK, RUN AND KILL THAT ALIEN - THEN OPEN THE DOOR, THEN MOVE BARNEY TO THE SECURITY DOOR THEN GET INTO THE VENTILATION SHAFT."

I do hope that the talented modders out there make sure they research their endevours before signing on the dotted line. Everyone will benefit.

 

[SupremePain]

I've found there are three major categories of mod.

1. One man mod. I.e. me, XDI, and a few other ones that people won't notice for a while. These have the advantage of not having loads of team members failing to pull their weight. It's all down to the one guy/gal to go as fast as he/she wishes.

2. Big team mod type A. (One with members with actual skills). As an example, Neoshock, Black Mesa:Source, SvenCoop, and a large number of others (don't hate me if I didn't mention your mod in there, because I'm only picking the top of my mind).
These tend to be the popular ones with the community, and are destined to either wow everyone, or fall apart from some petty dispute in the team.

3. Big team mod type B. Now, these are the teams I hate (not mentioning any names, you know who you are). These guys have a mod team leader who's not hit puberty yet, and post regularly on "Help Wanted" boards with badly written messages saying "I need six coders plz!" and stuff like that. They end up with about 3 web designers, a load of "ideas people", a number of people who only started mapping a few weeks ago, and a guy who produces some really poor, boxy, unskinned renders (usually weapon renders). And no coders, because coders are usually smart enough to avoid this type.

Now, the original thread starter said he hated "Stupid mods" and didn't give a definition of what a "Stupid mod" was. I think the majority of you guys suddenly thought "OMG what if he's implying me!?" and took offence. In my books, a stupid mod is one that's being worked on by the third of the three teams. I think he was implying my point too.

And Llama,I have been working on my mod for a couple of years (the engine switch didn't help), but as I'm using a lot of content from the HL2, I've got a smaller workload.

-Angry Lawyer

Well I partly agree. But I don't see why you would "hate" a so called "noob team". Why is it your problem that people start something and mess up?

Some of you guys a dismissing that anyone should even start in the HOBBY (that's right, hobby) that is mod making, if they are not 100% pro's. Their doing it for the community and for the fun of it. Why bring them crashing down? Everyone starts from scratch. If you don't like what then that's pretty much your own problem, no reason for the mods to stop doing whatever their doing.

I agree though, it's sad when some people join mods that WILL crash and burn. But it's pretty much all about having the right team. And about everyone having the same level of tolerence.

 

[xdiesp]

it's not the mod that makes the modder,guys...
Those short-lived mods are products by people that have not the resources necessary to do a full spectrum one: they wouldn't be able to sustain projects not of the 3rd kind and after all the important is having fun when editing,not the final product delivery to the public

hey dario,are you italian too?

 

[lemmingzappa]

WHY, OH WHY, DO PEOPLE WORK ON STUPID MODS???!!

I cannot believe how many talented people I've seen sell themselves to some of the stupidest, most short-lived, paper-thin mods, utterly *doomed* to last no longer than 30 minutes before you've tried everything and squeezed it dry.

Why waste so much hard work? Can you modders, programmers, artists not see an inch past your nose? Can you not see that so many of these mods are just plain STUPID?

Im a modder and artist - I know how hard and fricken LONG it takes to get some content made, but the most important thing is knowing whether or not it's even WORTH anything.

I just wanted to give a heads up, before you sell yourselves to a year of fruitless work. Make sure you don't start or join any lame mods, whether they be based on paper-thin game design, uninvolving, unrewarding gameplay, or just plain suck... Real mod teams NEED YOU available to work on fruitful projects that could actually last.

It's just so sad that most talented people are sold to a guranteed failure mod out there.

Think before you join. :|
For every mod that's successful there are 10 mods that fail, and countless hours of wasted sweat and toil. Why? Because people didn't think things through first. The 10 mods that fail are 10 people who didn't use their eyes.

I can clearly see your not a real modder....otherwise you wouldnt care, and would praise people for the work they have put into things ....geee what a lamer.

 

[Ennui]

I can clearly see your not a real modder....otherwise you wouldnt care, and would praise people for the work they have put into things ....geee what a lamer.

UGH.


I think that Angry Lawyer's classifications are right. And I think Dario is a modder, and lemmingzappa isn't. Read the whole thread next time, instead of commenting on something five pages back.

 

[RomeoJGuy]

This is why I do all my mods alone without any strong reliance on anyone else.

 

[xdiesp]

Ennui: it's a bad habit to think that people that talk sh1t about the others have someway the right to do it,because they are superior - in this case,real modders

 

[Dario D.]

Ennui: it's a bad habit to think that people that talk sh1t about the others have someway the right to do it,because they are superior - in this case,real modders

Uhhhhhhh... I don't follow.

I wasn't talking smack about anybody, nor was Angry Lawyer. Ennui was correcting that guy for interjecting something that was wrong into the discussion without reading it. There was nothing biased about what he said.

Edit: wait, is this discussion still going on? :monkee:

 

[WaterMelon34]

Wow, I came in here about to flame your n00b ass because I thought you meant "why are people making mods?" in the title... I can't wait to see some moron go like "why are people making stupid mods? mods are teh stupid and no one plays them."

BTW talented people join crap mods because maybe they have never been in a mod before so they don't want to go into a good mod and screw it up because they can't commit to it properly. They just want to try to get a taste for mod making and be able to just go like "Alright, I understand now. See you fellas in hell!" and leave. You can't do that to a good mod.