Word has just spread that hl2 will be going to ps2...

[Polykarbon]

Not a fanboy--post the facts, which are simply not good enough for you. You rely on blind words. You are the biggest fanboy...you do not know what you are talking about...etc. You do not post how/why your claims are justified. I talk to wanna-be game developers/programmerss a lot. The fact of the matter is, consoles in NO WAY are the same in development and system spec usuage with pcs. Your an idiot for even agreeing with whoever said this. "It is about how powerful the systems games are, and which system is the most powerful." This was directed to keep the post on track, not as a demeaning factor to substantiate my forms of truth. I already did that ^_~. "Yes it does mean something in the real world of console development, if it didnt i dont think microsoft would have went with a 733mhz processor." NO IT DOESNT. Go E-Mail Mircrosoft this. Go on any console development discussion forum and ask people this exact question. processing means nothing within a systems pipeline. Console ARE NOT PCS. PCs are not consoles. Try to understand this. Numbers mean nothing. When you say this you truley do expel any sense you have about programming and console gaming systems. A consoles processor does not do most of the work, it is the bandwidth and cache data that is used in the pipeline.


"Yes they like making childrens games. Hah" Sounded like "fanboy" talk to me. Sorry buddy but Sarcasm is tough to read in text. The hint was directed to the easy development of tools and software algs for the cube.

As for you Kingii. Again I do not care if you believe where I work lol. I never wanted you to believe me. Did you just compare a programmers input on something to a game art designers? lol...

Weltell did tell me. He told me how dumb-founded someone can be about console design.
Also regarding me posting--
You can leave, and you can expect me to reply to posts that are incorrect on a subject matter. I agree it has turned entertaining, and no the X-Box is not more powerful. Show me some proof. Or clam up, and go back to your "professor" lol.

Now--The only way you can prove me wrong is to provide facts. Stop bull-shitting around words and show me something. No your wrong Gamecube Fanboy...the processor does mean something...my professor knows more then you!

lol...

 

[kinggi]

yes the XBOX is more powerful! better cpu speeds and more powerful gpu- along with support from the hard drive- also programmers are very different from art designers- you tellin me im wrong- cause i know im right- now hurry, im expecting 10 more posts from you by tommorow morning!! cmon now you know you want to.:flame:

 

[Polykarbon]

Proof?

cpu speeds, and powerful gpus are only there for the output ranges of games and their functions. Everything else is handled and can be used around the memory bandwidth...texture bandwidth, the FAST Internal cache, the uber important IPS functions, etc, etc. All of this most likely does not exist though...because you sayz soz!

In your bizarro world, keep thinking that saying something without any kind of optional proof is valid at all.

Kinggi--Im telling you wrong, because you are wrong. Please--PROVE me otherwise if you can[You can't]

:cheers:

Edit-- Anthraxxx

lol...

 

[Anthraxxx]

Originally posted by Polykarbon

I could go on forever. There is a reason why developers LOVE the Gamecube.

Is it because the Gaycube has a purple Barney handle?

 

[kinggi]

the gamecube uses a fixed t&l structure which doesnt allow the amount of freedom developers have when using the xbox's t&l programming which totally relies on the gpu and doesnt take anything away from the cpu- this is the real advantage xbox has over the gc and clearly the ps2 which bases itself on 16 parralel pipelines which cant all be filled at once because of its terrible memory configuration. The 1t type ram provided in the gc is better but what its used for isnt. Certain amounts of ram are allocated to each section of the gamecube- 24 for example is used to support the gpu- now the xbox has 64 total to help out the gpu and the cpu- this looks bad on paper but actually allows more freedom when deciding what type of game yo want o make- visual games like doa3 and pdo allocate more ram to help buffer up the gpu in the xbox and the rest helps out the cpu. The bus in the gc is 160 something and the xbox has 133mhz. However once again the gamecube is limited in using that bus speed because of the configuration it has. The xbox hard drive really helps out when beuilding large expansive areas that have the detail required in close quarters. Swap files with the hard drive kinda act like ram when helping games compensate if they have too little allocated to the cpu. The gc has nicer wire setup then the xbox, and runs cooler- but extensive testing has proved that the heat buildup has little to no affect on gameplay. Xbox obviously kills all the other system in the sound department with the integrated 5.1- and is easily recognizable through listening. The xbox nv gpu has all the features from a geforce 3- even though the setup is that of a geforce 2 mx. The HD support in the xbox is clearly more advanced also, alowing higher than 480p, which is the gc max. Of coarse the limited bandwith in the gamecubes serial ports for its online components dwarf it also when compared to xbox's integrated ethernet port. The broadband adapter for the gc is really a slightly improved 56k. The intel cpu and nvidia combination is more powerful than the gc gpu- which actually has very good performance because of its use of 1T-sram embedded. But like you said- the raw specs mean nothing and so in conclusion for the overall winner in terms of graphical prowess the xbox comes out on top. Gc has some features that are more advanced- although none quite match the feature of having a fully programmable t&l setup like the xbox has, and the 4 layer textures of the gc allows for textures that can exceed the xbox's 2 layer system- however once again the gc configuration only allows the textures to fill in at the same speed of the xbox and thus making the use of those textures limited or confined to a smaller area- RE4 is a great example of this and in the case of smaller environments the texture layering can exceed that of xbox. But most xbox games are larger in scope because of the features it has, hard drive, t&l, ect, and thus it is able to do much more complicated graphical effects, which would cost the gc devs too much time and money. That is why it is common to see the wonderful water effects we see on xbox games that arent present in the gc or ps2 ones. As far as ps2 goes- the 4mb dram embedded isnt exactly useful- thus you can have one thing or the other- either a poly crunching game with great graphics- minus the advanced t&l features- and minus texture quality to fill those polys- or you can have a cpu driven game- like i said the parralel setup of the ps2 restricts it to one or the other- hopefully the devs of killzone wil have time to help out its ai- cause with the current look of the graphics- very little is left available to help out the cpu. That is why the vehicles are absent- the cpu power required to run the physics isnt there, and that is why half life 2 would either look like crap with physics, or look great with very minamal physics. Once again that is the great thing of having 64megs as opposed to having 40 something split up between gpu and cpu(as in the gc)- or 32 like the ps2 has which is just too little.The 64 megs to do with as you please allow smart devs to make smart descisions which will definately be more beneficial. However of coarse same can be said for devs on gc and ps2- however once the limitation is reached it becaomes evident in the choices that were made. The fixed T&L of the gamecube performs better ( gc games have better framerates at 60fps) but its restrictions keep it from displaying what the xbox can display- which can put those effects out at 30fps ( like halo 2)
I think im done with my rant but this is obviously sufficient proof for you all. Ill leave you with a qoute from arnand tech that sums up their summary on which system has the better hardware:

"..based on specifications alone, Xbox is the more powerful console overall. Although the Flipper GPU's use of 1T-SRAM embedded into its die improves performance considerably, the overall package is not as powerful as the Intel/NVIDIA combination beneath the Xbox hood. Features such as real-time Dolby Digital Encoding as well as a very powerful programmable T&L core whose instruction sets have been publicly available for the past year now are only the tip of the iceberg. The inclusion of isochronous channels within the Xbox's HyperTransport link guarantee uninterrupted bandwidth to those tasks that require it which is very important when dealing with something like DD encoding, streaming off of the hard disk or network accesses."

 

[WillH]

Everything else is handled and can be used around the memory bandwidth...texture bandwidth, the FAST Internal cache, the uber important IPS functions

hey Poly I just wanna get some input on you about the PS2. I'm not a dev or anything like that and haven't read up on the PS2 for a year or so but basically i read an Ars Technica article about the whole ps2's design and it pretty much said the PS2 was based around a large pipeline and small cache theory while the Xbox was more of a small pipeline large cache theory. I'm not exactly positive about my info as these articles are quite long and i didn't feel like reading them again, but in short does the PS2 make up its ground withe proper use of its fast caches etc.? Just something I was wondering. Once again I'm claiming no knowledge here so don't flame me for being a dumbass or anything.

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/2q00/ps2/ps2vspc-1.html
http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/1q00/playstation2/ee-1.html

 

[kinggi]

"PROVE me otherwise if you can[You can't]"

just did
:bounce: Now wheres the endless posts of you picking apart my facts- and they are indeed facts- information was all verified from various tech sites, guys that do this stuff for a living as well as supposedly you.

 

[Polykarbon]

No--you did not. I do not want "facts" from "Tech sites" regarding information on systems. Show me a benchmark...show me factual numbers...not some dumb statement which myself and others already laughed at for being incoherent to the situation. Show me a game, Benchmark, a proof of power if you will. You do not see people saying oh my Kia can go 160 MPH, because Kia said so! No...that is not contextual evidence to support the statement...rather...an open biased opinion that they somehow get from reading the information and trying to retort what someone else has said...which is clearly what you are/were doing. You keep posting, and saying nope I am still right...when myself and other/s have shut your meaning little babble down. I provide facts, you provide garble.

Stop garnering around the subject, it is getting old.

 

[kinggi]

^ i so owned you and now you resort to asking for proof almost nobody can give- your fighting a losing battle- facts represent themselves and the facts are the xbox is more powerful than the gc and ps2. Sorry you wanted proof, i gave it in large quantity with that post- now you want benchmark numbers- something that i dotn feel like opening up my xbox for and installing one to provide- dude get real you spend all your posts posting 'your" proof with specs and stuff- yet you tuen it all around when i fianaly deliver. LOL man certainly not something i would expect from a computer programmer.

"I provide facts, you provide garble",,,"I do not want "facts" from "Tech sites" regarding information on systems"


oh and "Not a fanboy--post the facts, which are simply not good enough for you"- just did

sorry im confused- if the info you were providing was "facts" and being the info i provided was "facts"- why would you care then if you provide those facts when you do not want them.....

AND THE only reason i came back to this thread after a day was because you were spouting your mouth after saying you were done with the thread- i tried to let it die, you didnt- so dont go turning it around on me like i started it back up again.

 

[Polykarbon]

By the way--everything you said up there was essentially copied and pastied from different places.You already reminded everyone that your intelligence on this matter is not quite up there to bat...so you needed to take a step further and paste things. That is also mainly all garbage as well. It just talks about true-form performance, not standard operations that both do. It gos on about the good things of the X-Box, and the bad of the Gamecube. It does not do otherwise. [very minorly...evn then puts the Gamecube down] Another mindless fanboyish post from someone. One of the key points in that post was the talk about Transform Lighting and operation channels being used from the core boards memory. It gos on about how the X-Box can handle this better, but it does not show standard proof. The Gamecube does. StarFox galaxies is the ONLY console game out to use true form refraction and reflection on water and just about everything else. The best X-Box game to use this is Blood Wake... oh but god knows if it was EASIER then the company would already put it in. I suppose they are holding back on visuals for us because it is to easy lol.

If you want me to explain to you in detail EVERY little thing you and tell you why its wrong then just let me know. You just keep copying and pasting things and talking as if you have any clue what is going on here.

 

[kinggi]

^ DUMB ASS I WROTE THAT WHOLE DAMN THING MYSELF- that was all knowledge ive learned in the past and just recently looked up to refresh myself on- i understand every word of what i posted and once again you turn it all around and pull the idea out of your ass that i coped pasted. you assume too much.

oh and im sorry but WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHAT YOU SAY IF WHAT I SAY DOESNT MATTER- all your info you provided is essentially the same i provided- just that i have solid sources and all of yours is mishmashed from different things. Please post your site that provides all the info saying the gc is better then the xbox in graphics- cause the only sites i can find all say the xbox is better. Just goes to show you how far someone can go on essentially nothing but his own knowledge- yet i provide my own and others. Seriously if i cant prove xbox tops gc, you cant prove gc tops xbox- thats it.

 

[TrueWeltall]

not. I do not want "facts" from "Tech sites" regarding information on systems.

Its alot better then the 'facts' that you pull out of your ass. So what you want is a fanboi opinion about it like your doing now?

I provide facts, you provide garble.

Haha, nice joke.

Stop garnering around the subject, it is getting old.

Your right it is old, but you dont seem to stop.

You keep posting, and saying nope I am still right...when myself and other/s have shut your meaning little babble down.

The irony! It hurts! *calls for a medic*

 

[Polykarbon]

You owned nothing. You are being hypocritical again...shame on you. I never resorted to asking for proof ROFLMAO. I ALWAYS asked for it. I can give you proof...its in Rogue Leader 3. What can you give me? Nothing. What facts are that the X-Box is more powerful? Give me some. That post? Don't make me laugh TOO loud. I have stated that entire time that benchmark/factual numbers ARE what defines the power. What exactly did you deliver? Copied material that you cannot comprehend without going to google? I am also confused as to why you keep taking everything I say and applying it to your general situation at hand. My FACTS are proof of WHY the Gamecube is better. They are numbers. Yours are just statements. Statements can be made by anyone. There are your talkers, and your workers. The information you provided was by some talkers. Go talk with Factor 5, they will give you numbers and not reasons why the Gamecube is better.[because of this!!!...very childish]

I was done with the thread, but decided to come back and post again. I wanted to let it die, until people who have no idea what they are talking about[like yourself] post and try to somehow change the situation at hand to get the highly favorish response.

I deal with people like you a lot. You think you know what you are talking about, and even if you don't, you will try your hardest to think that you do. Then if that does not work, you change the subject to benefit yourself.[Like a politician]

 

[kinggi]

^ poly wheres the others laughing at me...

"I deal with people like you a lot. You think you know what you are talking about, and even if you don't, you will try your hardest to think that you do. Then if that does not work, you change the subject to benefit yourself." deal with yourself dude.

 

[Polykarbon]

kingii just give me the word and I will explain what everything you said and why it is incorrect.

Weltell--Out of my ass? Really? Go look up the "facts" at Factor 5s webpage. It is not fanboyish. The truth hurts...do not be bitter. You are acting like a child...well...you sound like one anyway.
I do not garner around the subject, go quote me when I did.

 

[Polykarbon]

"^ poly wheres the others laughing at me..."

perfect example of you trying to benefit yourself to the situation for others. You are a lamer. In all honesty--it is the truth. I will wait for you and Weltell to reply with more soundish remarks to myself with direct quotes and statements that hold no bearing on the discussion other then making other people seem to agree in your favor.

 

[TrueWeltall]

I deal with people like you a lot. You think you know what you are talking about, and even if you don't, you will try your hardest to think that you do. Then if that does not work, you change the subject to benefit yourself.

That sums you up nicely.

My FACTS are proof of WHY the Gamecube is better.

You should just say 'My opinions' because thats all they are.

 

[kinggi]

Wait but you yourself posted that you and the others are laughing at my info- lol dude this is where your past quotes are gonna hurt you.

"Now--The only way you can prove me wrong is to provide facts. Stop bull-shitting around words and show me something"


I provided a large quantity of facts...

"an open biased opinion that they somehow get from reading the information and trying to retort what someone else has said"


how is factor 5's website info valid and useful then, hell its the website for the game they are making and they are probably doing all they can to embelish their work. At least i got mine from an outside source- someone that isnt involved directly with their own project..... essentially all your so called proof just became moot because of your own quote.

 

[TrueWeltall]

Weltell--Out of my ass? Really? Go look up the "facts" at Factor 5s webpage.

I do not want "facts" from "Tech sites" regarding information on systems.

Good job!

 

[Polykarbon]

How does it some me up? Oh right how everytime something was said I offered clear factual numbers of the power. The Gamecubes specs say it is possible to do 12 Million Poly/Second at once time. Yet--Factor 5 has pulled out 30 Million Polys/Second. Oh they also use Advanced T&L functions and every other trick in the book. It also does not need to use LOD algs for the graphics AND runs at 60 FPS. Oh but I forgot this is all BS. The Gamecube specs say this is impossible...so then it must be a lie. BY YOUR WAY OF Thinking...how is this possible. If the tech freaks say it can't be done...then it can't be done...end of discussion. Very very childish and lame.

They are not opinions...please...tell me how they are...I would love to know.

 

[kinggi]

didnt read the context- that one was my mistake- but really the others now- you gonna say all those are sarcastic too??

 

[Polykarbon]

lol your doing it again. Applying everything to your own formidable manner. That was clearly sarcasmastic--and was OPENLY clear in my writing.

Let us get back on the subject on the power of the X-Box being greater then the Cube. Offer me a real world presentation that is more powerful then Rogue Leader 3 [nope not Halo 2] and then you win.

 

[SpuD]

Everyone, get out of the fight, this is between kinggi and Polykarbon

This is interesting
/me gets popcorn

 

[handsomeplzer]

hey I heard PS 3 will suck monkey's eggs LOL and will cost a grand to buy because of the vivo option??

 

[TrueWeltall]

Sorry buddy but Sarcasm is tough to read in text.

That was clearly sarcasmastic

sarcasmastic isnt a word by the way.

 

[kinggi]

unfortunately poly SEEING a game and thinking its graphics are the best, especially when not everyone feels the same way, isnt proof at all- the only proof that can be provided are facts gathered from reputable sources. You are mistaking facts for opinions- you liking the way rogue leader looks is an opinion, and cannot be considered as proof- you just ended your arguement with that statement- cause all it is now is one word against the other- i think a shooter like pdo looks better than rs2- and you think the oppositte- and since RL3 isnt even out yet- yes i think halo 2 looks better as well.

 

[kinggi]

seriosly reply to these statements

"Now--The only way you can prove me wrong is to provide facts. Stop bull-shitting around words and show me something"


I provided a large quantity of facts...

"an open biased opinion that they somehow get from reading the information and trying to retort what someone else has said"


how is factor 5's website info valid and useful then, hell its the website for the game they are making and they are probably doing all they can to embelish their work. At least i got mine from an outside source- someone that isnt involved directly with their own project..... essentially all your so called proof just became moot because of your own quote.


cause really with the "facts qoute" and the "what someone else said quote" you just ended it.


I mean really what do you have??? i have sites backing up my claims- i have facts about the hardware- i have the knowledge that the overall attitude towards the consoles is that xbox looks the best

you have what? factor 5's website? your opinion on how rl3 looks? ...

 

[Polykarbon]

ok Listen Kingii--for what its worth I enjoyed this discussion. I do not think Rogue Leader 3 looks better. It just does based on all of the specs released. 3-D rendering engines are written with specific maxiumum limitations in mind, and Factor 5 has openly stated what Rogue Leader 2 and 3's specs are. Bump-Mapping on Everything, the higest console Polygon count on screen at once. Articulated Shadowing and Transform self lighting...volumetric fog. It is all there. Just go look it up. All while running at 60 FPS. People keep saying how great Halo 2 looks, but it honestly does not. It has high bump-mapped effects[the same as Rogue Leader] but has to dumb down the polygon levels. It is still also limited to 30 FPS. There is no excuse for this. If the X-Box is the more powerful system, then I am still waiting for that game to show me if it is. Until then, I stand by saying the Gamecube is more powerful. Can you understand this? I do not mind if you believe it. I suppose you do not mind if I dont believe what you say.[about the X-Box being more powerful]

This topic is NEVER going to get anywhere.

Let's just end it at a null point...

Edit--This honestly is my last post. This debate will never go anywhere. Just wanted to respond to what you said. Man go look everywhere about info on Factor 5s brilliant render engine. Go to IGN and read the previews on Rogue Leader 2[3]...read the reviews. Go to www.gamerankings.com and read the many reviews that rave about its MPS pushing and Mapping ability. Read on about its lighting ability and power rendering software. Factor 5 has gained some of the highest respect in the business because of their talented staff. From the creation of sound software drivers to software tools for others[including X-Box tools] they are "it."

 

[kinggi]

you still didnt relpy to your own quotes


pdo ran 60fps as a shooter. Halo runs 30 as a fps-


"I do not think Rogue Leader 3 looks better. It just does based on all of the specs released." you mean the specs released from factor 5 to hype up their game???? you have nothing reputable that is not in ties with the game developers- now i want proof from an outside source that says those specs are true and better then anything out there- cause all your arguments are based on the developer of the game your defending. Now of course you say to end the discussion when all of your credibility disappears.


....reviews are opinions.....hell i got a halo review that says its the best looking console game ever released. YOU definately misunderstand the meaning of "facts"

 

[kinggi]

in polykarbons own words everybody


"Just let this thread go. I beat you out. Ownage...1337 haxor lol...whatever you want to call it." :cheers: :bounce: :flame:

Hope you all enjoyed the show everyone!:cheers:

 

[TrueWeltall]

Huzzah, im going to sleep now.

 

[Apos]

Uh, did we sort of lose track of the point of this thread for a sec? The basic question is whether lombardi really said that it would be for the ps2. Did he, or did IGN just misrepresent what he said?