Xen - Combine controlled or not

[Langolier]

Everyone is making lots of assumptions...

Fact: We don't know that we were in a Citadel on Xen.

Fact: We don't know for sure if all Citadels on all Combine Controlled worlds are the same.

The Citadels we saw through the portal seemed to be hovering, where-as the ones on Earth seem to burrow into the ground.

Remember that if they were on Xen, they might not be able to burrow because not all Xen landmasses are dense. Also, there might not be much in the way of metal on Xen, and so it might just be more efficient to use native materials.

Perhaps the first Citadels were like the ones on Earth, and then later, their structure was gradually replaced with natural Xen organic and rocky materials. If the Combine did control Xen, we have no idea for how long. It might have been five months, it might have been five-hundred years.

The Citadels on Earth initially appeared in the ground manufactured from alien materials, however some have suggested that the strange walls seen 'eating' the city may be taking the rubbel and processing it at the Citadel. S it is possible that in time, perhaps a very long time, that the Citadel(s) will eventually resemble Earth structures or materials more-so than they do now. However, this is only speculation. All of it.

Any of this information can be interrprted in different ways.

There is one thing though:

Vortigaunt and Nihilant Quotes. I don't know any perfectly off the top of my head. However I seem recall hearing that Nihilant says: "Slaves. We are their slaves."

And Vortigaunts: "We must achive total victory, or suffer our own extinction. There can be no more compromise."

The Vortigaunt quote could be interpretted in different ways, however Nihilanth's quote is pretty convincing to me.

I will admit though that I'm not positive of the Nihilanth quote because I didn't hear it myself... I've always found it hard to understand what he's saying. I'm sure there is a way to verify it though.

 

[ríomhaire]

Nihilanth did say "Slaves. We are their slaves."
I think the vort one is "MAy this war end in either total victory or our extintion. No further compromise shall we alow."

 

[Sufferin-rebel]

The thing i dont get... When the Combine took over the Xenians, Did they change the way they spoke... Cuz in HL1 I heard Vorts saying Aweega Aweega.. And talking like an alien.. But in HL2 the Vorts now sound American My guess is the rebels taught the Vorts English language.. and how to speak it. One thing I do think of... is the reason why No combine are actually on the planet.. My guess is, That becuz of the way Xenian Wildlife worked... You had Ant lions on there.. Bull squids who were enemies of Gonarch.. The reason i know is becuz I see Bullsquids killing headcrabs in hl1, So I presume for the safety of the Combine if the Bullsquids were killing in Packs the Combine would be overwhelmed, Which brings me to my next question? Are the Xenians a kind race... I see why that Nilly person wanted u dead.. Becuz we came on his planet and stole his crystals... which makes us the bad guys in a way, But still. If the combine didnt control The xenians, Would they be nice to us, becuz we see the Vorts helping us? I hope in HL3 or in a HL2 Expansion we get to see Xen on the Source engine.. and hope to see more of the creatures..

 

[Langolier]

The thing i dont get... When the Combine took over the Xenians, Did they change the way they spoke... Cuz in HL1 I heard Vorts saying Aweega Aweega.. And talking like an alien.. But in HL2 the Vorts now sound American [/qluote]

They do? What Americans are you talking to?

My guess is the rebels taught the Vorts English language.. and how to speak it.

I would think so. We do hear them using their native tongue a few times in the game.

One thing I do think of... is the reason why No combine are actually on the planet..

Do you mean Xen? That's the whole debate you see. If the game were reversed, and you were a Vortiguant scientist that opened a portal to Earth that started transporting people and then later Soldiers to Xen... and you were later on Earth and killed Earth's "Leader" and ended the siege... would you know for sure what the Combine was if they then came to Xen? After all, you'd likely only whind up killing Combine Soldiers (which would just be normal Human soldiers to you) with maybe the odd Strider. Nothing that for all you knew wasn't native to Xen.

My point is, is that if Xen is/was under Combine control, then the Alien Grunt would be the Earth Equivalent of the Combine Soldier. He'd would appear native to the Xen enviroment since he'd be derrived from the indigenous inhabitants. I know that when I first played Half-Life I assumed that Nihilanth was just running his own show. When I first played Half-Life 2 I didn't really even think about Xen... I figured the Vortigaunts were just 'free' now because I killed Nihlanth... which is true. However it is only in going back and collecting information that I've come to the conclusion that Xen was indeed under Combine control. (there is room for debate of-course, but that's how I've interpretted the avialbe information)

 

[ríomhaire]

We have only ever seen 1 combine (and that is open to debate) the advisor.

 

[Jandor]

I'm actually kinda sceptical about the Combine on Xen.
For one big reason.
Stalkers, often put forward as the alternative human version of the Vortigaunts. Except Vortigaunts can survive without there collars or masters. How many stalkers could survive?
Now it is possible that Vortigaunts are actually heavily modified, or that the Stalkers being as they are is because of Breen.

afterall, the Combine might want Xen because of its resources to be mined (crystals, etc.) so they needed strong workers, while Breen is trying to show the humans to be a valuable military asset.
Hence the apparent weakness of Stalkers to Vortigaunts.

But still. I've decided not to defend either side until I'm more sure one way or the other.

 

[Mith']

Citadel = Combine? WRONG!

The word citadel have been around for a LONG time before HL2 came out, and people (insects too, termites,ants) have always wanted to build tall buildings, so if you found a tall building on Xen, it doesn't prove combine interaction, it only tells us that tall buildings are great!

"The metal is so typical combine, there almost isn't any on Xen, therefor no combine on Xen!" WRONG!

If I conquered Egypt, i wouldn't build igloos there, just because I'm from the Northpole! I would have made bricks of something around to build houses! Not of the most rare material in the region! Since most of Xen was organic, they buildt things out of that..

Trying to be as neutral as possible, don't want to be proved wrong..

 

[Angry Lawyer]

"The metal is so typical combine, there almost isn't any on Xen, therefor no combine on Xen!" WRONG!

Valve chose the metal because it looks so alien to all Earth things, and looks otherworldly.

Where else on Earth would you find metal of that type?

A lot of things on Xen were organic, but I don't think it was 100% organic. Still consisted of rocks.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Combine Elite]

Democracy works people
The creator of this thread should have started with a simple poll

Democracy : an illusion to give the masses the perception of actual choice.

On good authority. There is a bigger threat than the Combine or Xen. One who controls both. And we will find out. Hopefully not in six years or more like HL2. These 'races' are used at different stages of exploration and or conquest. Ah the mystery that is the HalfLife Universe. What wonderous sights there are to be.

 

[Jandor]

Democracy : an illusion to give the masses the perception of actual choice.

If I recall correctly.

Democracy does give you actual choices.
However, most of us live in Republics.

 

[Laivasse]

Everyone is making lots of assumptions...

Fact: We don't know that we were in a Citadel on Xen.

Fact: We don't know for sure if all Citadels on all Combine Controlled worlds are the same.

The Citadels we saw through the portal seemed to be hovering, where-as the ones on Earth seem to burrow into the ground.

Remember that if they were on Xen, they might not be able to burrow because not all Xen landmasses are dense. Also, there might not be much in the way of metal on Xen, and so it might just be more efficient to use native materials.

Perhaps the first Citadels were like the ones on Earth, and then later, their structure was gradually replaced with natural Xen organic and rocky materials. If the Combine did control Xen, we have no idea for how long. It might have been five months, it might have been five-hundred years.

The Citadels on Earth initially appeared in the ground manufactured from alien materials, however some have suggested that the strange walls seen 'eating' the city may be taking the rubbel and processing it at the Citadel. S it is possible that in time, perhaps a very long time, that the Citadel(s) will eventually resemble Earth structures or materials more-so than they do now. However, this is only speculation. All of it.

Blah, blah blah....don't mean to be rude, but you're doing what all people who believe the Combine controlled Xen have done over and over, which is to twist your theory into corkscrews to make it fit. And it can't be denied that it can fit. The only problem is that there is no reason to try. There is nothing that suggests the Combine were on Xen, ever, ever, ever, yet people jump through hoops trying to develop super complex theories that sound stupid but just about manage to fit everything in. Why do this...DESIST!

"Slaves, we are their slaves.

If Nihilanth had said this in HL2 when the Combine existed, there would be no argument - the Combine would be on Xen, and we'd all be sipping tea together marvelling at how simple the story is. However, Nihilanth said this in HL1 when the Combine didn't exist - if Valve wanted this to mean that the Combine were controlling Xen, they'd have had to been able to see into the future and predict their own invention of the Combine. This is possible although incredibly unlikely. What is impossible is that they would open that potential plotline, and then completely neglect to close it in HL2. The proof of Combine on Xen has to come from HL2, because HL2 contains Valve's updated vision of the HL universe. But there is no proof at all....there isn't even the suggestion of it.....and yet people insist on....aaah,whatever.

"We must achive total victory, or suffer our own extinction. There can be no more compromise."

(btw this is a complete misquote) A more accurate version of this is iirc "Let this conflict end in either total victory, or our own extinction. No further compromise will we accept" This quote says nothing at all about CoX-theories one way or the other, but I suspected you were trying to say that the Combine would wipe out the Vortigaunts if they won, implying past history together. Note the bit I have boldized which shows that it is the Vortigaunts who are dictating the terms of this conflict - the reason they would be wiped out is because they would have fought up until their own obliteration.

"The metal is so typical combine, there almost isn't any on Xen, therefor no combine on Xen!" WRONG!

RIGHT! actually. As Lawyer said, Valve chose that weird looking metal as a symbol for the Combine's presence wherever they were, because it clashed so obviously with any natural earth materials. The Combine build all of their stuff out of that substance, whatever it is. There is none of that particular type of metal on Xen=no Combine. However, it is obvious that there would be none of that metal there, since the Combine were not concieved of at that point. Therefore, if Valve intended their new badguy to exist retroactively in the story, they would have explained how in HL2.

The circle is complete.

*waits for someone to ask "but wot abuot teh nilahrababbarnhth azzjet l0lz0rzzz!!!!11111"* :|

 

[Edcrab]

Personally I think the Combine had conquered Xen long ago but had more or less abandoned them to their own devices once all hope of freedom had been lost.

Nihilanth certainly looks like he was wired up into the Combine's angular technology, but he seems so ancient I don't think it'd be wrong to wonder how long it had been since the Combine last intervened in that particular dimension's fate.

We're led to believe that the Universal Union has thousands, maybe even millions of member planets/dimensions, so perhaps once a world has been fully assimilated they "allow" their own imposed regime to adapt more fully to the world's nature- i.e., taking advantage of the Xen organisms that are, in essence, biological machines (a bit like the self-replicating Synth).

I always thought that once Earth was fully assimilated into the Combine there'd be less of a military presence, for instance, and a lack of off-world support (i.e., complete use of humans and native technologies- or semi-native like the Hunter-Seeker helicopters, instead of the heavy reliance of Synth), because the planet would become independant.

In the same way, I wonder if, perhaps, the Combine had almost forgotten about Xen as the populace- under the watchful eye of Nihilanth- had been subdued long ago.

And then Gordon is caught up in the middle of a Resonance Cascade- deliberately initiated or perhaps accidental- that causes the collision of the two worlds and brings Xen to the fore of the Combine's political activity...

 

[Jandor]

Do the people at Valve actually know?

The Combine have appeared out of thin air with little explanation about where they came from.

Hmmm.

*EDIT: I guess I'm the only one who thinks the 'Combine' metal just looks like normal metal?*

 

[Edcrab]

Sometimes I wonder just how far ahead Valve planned, concerning the Combine- i.e., precisely who the Xenian's mysterious masters really would turn out to be.

I don't think the Combine still hold sway over the Xenians, however. All the Vort talk regarding their freedom implies to me that Nihilanth was the psychic power controlling them in the first game- with his demise, the Combine can't exploit their natural telepathy and hive mentality.

I think the "Combine" metal is just some sort of alloy they cobbled together from the ores readily available beneath the Earth's crust. I personally suspect the waxy black finish on some of the surfaces is due to some sort of protective sealant. Or perhaps one of their manufacturing methods.

 

[Laivasse]

Personally I think the Combine had conquered Xen long ago but had more or less abandoned them to their own devices once all hope of freedom had been lost.

Nihilanth certainly looks like he was wired up into the Combine's angular technology, but he seems so ancient I don't think it'd be wrong to wonder how long it had been since the Combine last intervened in that particular dimension's fate.

We're led to believe that the Universal Union has thousands, maybe even millions of member planets/dimensions, so perhaps once a world has been fully assimilated they "allow" their own imposed regime to adapt more fully to the world's nature- i.e., taking advantage of the Xen organisms that are, in essence, biological machines (a bit like the self-replicating Synth).

I always thought that once Earth was fully assimilated into the Combine there'd be less of a military presence, for instance, and a lack of off-world support (i.e., complete use of humans and native technologies- or semi-native like the Hunter-Seeker helicopters, instead of the heavy reliance of Synth), because the planet would become independant.

In the same way, I wonder if, perhaps, the Combine had almost forgotten about Xen as the populace- under the watchful eye of Nihilanth- had been subdued long ago.

And then Gordon is caught up in the middle of a Resonance Cascade- deliberately initiated or perhaps accidental- that causes the collision of the two worlds and brings Xen to the fore of the Combine's political activity...

By that rationale, the Combine are just going to casually leave Earth and humanity alone at some unspecified point far in the future. In fact we know from what Breen says that the Combine are going to wipe out humanity utterly - either by adding them to the Combine as transhuman troops, or by a simple cull. Of course, after that they might simply leave Earth, but either way I think it would definitely be obvious to whoever arrived on Earth afterwards that the Combine had been here. Earth will not become "independent" - Earth is dead under the Combine. They aren't here to improve life, or convert people to Scientology or build some schools, they're here to turn humans into weapons, which is what they do everywhere, the evidence being the synths you fought.

If the Combine went to Xen and left leaving little to no trace, then, um....what exactly did they do there? They subjugated the Nihilanth and the vorts...in order to leave them alone and not use them? No races assimilated into the Combine for usage in conquering other worlds (ie, Earth in HL2)? No structures?

You mentioned the Combine's "angular technology" which is an important thing to note - the Combine are all angles, corners, blue metallic sheen, and sophisticated energy weapons with big gun barrels. Xen is just like some random messed up nest - there's order there, even machinery, but it is not Combine order or Combine machinery, since it doesn't bear any of the hallmarks (indeed couldn't possibly because the Combine didn't exist as a concept at the time of HL1). It feels clear to me that in creating such a different feel to the enemies between HL1 and 2, Valve intended to create an enemy that had no link to any previous enemies. This is borne out by all the evidence, yet can be countered if you cook up unlikely-sounding and excessively complicated theories to explain otherwise. I don't see why it is necessary to do so.

Do the people at Valve actually know?

The Combine have appeared out of thin air with little explanation about where they came from.

Hmmm.

As I've said, I believe they wanted to show a distinction. It is still possible that Valve may decide on a link between Combine/Xen in future, perhaps after seeing how many people seem to think there is one (but WHY?!?!?!). If Valve do this I would consider it a story development so retarded that it would rival Gearbox' finest moments, since you would have to overlook the absence of, and even evidence against a Combine/Xen connection in HL2.

 

[Edcrab]

Well, all the Valve "sponsored" literature (well, RTB basically) alludes to a Combine presence on Xen, regardless of what we decide.

I'm not saying that the Combine leaves a planet entirely, I'm saying that rather than populating it with their own soldiers they use the native fauna/technology instead, so as not to spread their own "conquering" armies too thin. I'm not trying to indicate that we'll be absorbed into their empire and ignored, just that they won't see the need to place a Synth battalion on our soil- and then the planet will become a glorified mining colony, or perhaps they'll consider our own combat craft/personnel useful enough to take to other worlds (like the Synth they absorbed long ago).

Although it's quite possible that they considered Xen entirely useless, and merely invaded long ago because a) they could or b) considered them a potential threat in the future. Just as you ask why its necessary for us to try and prove a Combine presence on Xen with convoluted theories, I ask why you feel the need to disprove it when Valve themselves- illogical as it seems- wrote the Xenians in as an example of Combine exploitation

 

[Laivasse]

Well, all the Valve "sponsored" literature (well, RTB basically) alludes to a Combine presence on Xen, regardless of what we decide.

Um, no it doesn't. At all.

 

[Edcrab]

So what do you make of all the Vortigaunt talk of slavery and the fall of a lesser master eventually leading to the fall of their greater master?

Basically, they repeatedly make vague statements along those lines and we keep encountering enshackled Vortigaunts still working as Combine labour. It's generally conceded that the Combine had some hand in the workings of Xen.

So you think that the Combine were aware of Xen- just had no interest in it- and then detected the cascade (and thus the existence of Earth), and thus decided to invade via that dimension? An interesting possibility...

 

[Laivasse]

Valve themselves- illogical as it seems- wrote the Xenians in as an example of Combine exploitation

The Xenians only become an example of Combine exploitation after you've accepted that the Combine were there on Xen. And you already need to have thought up a convoluted theory to be able to consider that seriously.

That theory should include all the usual, such as:

-why the Combine can't local teleport, despite that being Nihilanth's speciality and Xen's main feature (this implies they don't even know about Xen's existance)
-why there are no Combine structures on Xen
-why the Combine haven't assimilated any Xen races
-why, if Valve wanted to create a connection, they included no connecting evidence or storyline pointers
-why you're willing tocook up a theory that makes the Combine look like some cack incompetent force you've already beaten once, when the idea of a completely new enemy with new methods is far more intimidating and cool (BTW, this is the reason that I'm unwilling to ignore all the supporting evidence for the Combine-NOT-on-Xen stance)
...and so forth.

 

[Edcrab]

So you think that the Combine were aware of Xen- just had no interest in it- and then detected the cascade (and thus the existence of Earth), and thus decided to invade via that dimension? An interesting possibility...

I'll take that as a "yes"... heheh.

You could argue that the Combine are a new enemy, and that we- that is, Freeman- merely fought one of their member civillisations in the first game, while now we fight two (the Synth and, essentially, a part Combine technology-part human taskforce that hasn't been entirely perfected just yet).

I still think the reason Synth (a species I presume to be the Combine's adopted warriors) are present on Earth and not Xen is because we'll eventually be "independant", in the sense that we'll gladly maintain their stranglehold on our planet ourselves, through augmented humans and our own bastardised vehicles.

I see it as similar to the actions of British colonialists- when we barged into India for no justifiable reason we recruited willing natives as local peacekeepers but kept our own elite (or at least more expansive) military on hand to respond to crisis situations in neighbouring provinces.

 

[special-ed]

Is that Nihilianth Breen is always talking to on his monitor?

 

[Laivasse]

So what do you make of all the Vortigaunt talk of slavery and the fall of a lesser master eventually leading to the fall of their greater master?

Glad you asked! Well, I explained it once before in a thread long ago, well enough to satisfy myself at least....whether I can recall the argument sufficiently to convince anyone else is another matter.

We all know that the vorts are prone to speaking mistily and vaguely, right? So for a start that makes everything they say open to multiple interpretation...

They also say in HL2 "something secret steers us both, we shall not name it" - *this* is not the Combine. They do not control the vorts and they damn well don't control Gordon....so it's obvious they're talking about GMan. We still don't know exactly where GMan stands or whether he's benevolent or not (unlikely) - perhaps the greater master is him? Some have speculated that he now controls the vortessence (not my argument, but compatible)...

Bear in mind also that this "lesser master" may not necessarily be connected to the "greater master" - the greater master may only be "greater" in terms of its evil and power for destruction. Also consider that the greater master may not even be the Combine - considering what the vorts say about GMan "steering" you both it could allude to the showdown that all players hope is coming. The vorts want freedom not only from slavery but from this destiny bitch-play that the GMan seems to play a part in orchestrating...? Possible.

Finally the Nihilanth's "Slaves, we are all slaves" - bear in mind for a start that the Combine didn't exist when this was recorded OK so maybe Valve were alluding to the possibility of slavery to some unknown race yet to be thought up....considering they didn't suggest any link in HL2 (other than the vort quotes, which are highly subjective), I reckon you can condemn this "slaves" stuff from HL1 to be metaphor. You might sneer at this....but when you think about it, it's not too far from "something steers us both", which obviously refers to GMan.

Quick synopsis of my version of HL1 plot - Nihilanth is having species stolen by curious scientists and is angry. Gman wants Nihilanth dead (reasons unknown). Gman sets up conditions for resonance cascade to allow Nihil to gain foothold into our dimension and send over stuff randomly in anger. Gman does this knowing that there will be govt military response (which he also has a hand in) and that he can use those troops to go on and get Nihilanth. Troops get minced. Random scientist named Freeman shows promise. Gman transfers his attention to Freeman, troops told to "Forget about Freeman", andFreeman ploughs a path through corpses to get to Nihilanth. Nihilanth is not stupid - he begins to realise he's been set up and explains random tidbits to Gordon as you are porting around towards the end. "You are all thieves", "he's not man", "we are all slaves" - my view is that you could interpret this to mean that Nihilanth is referring to himself and Gordon, saying that GMan is pulling the strings and that there is more going on behind the scenes than we realise.

So you think that the Combine were aware of Xen- just had no interest in it- and then detected the cascade (and thus the existence of Earth), and thus decided to invade via that dimension? An interesting possibility...

Nah, I don't think the Combine knew about Xen at all. I remember hearing it said though, that the Combine were initially attracted to Earth by the dimensional disturbances that happened after the Nihilanth died (the ones that ruined Earth)...maybe someone quoted that from the Prima guide? not sure....

 

[Edcrab]

Aha, so you're thinking that Xen was basically just a backward place the Combine hadn't even noticed, and then- due to G-man's intervention in putting Freeman in a good enough position to kill Nihilanth- the Combine spotted us and attacked, taking advantage of the fact that Earth was now populated with humans and Vortigaunts? Two species for the price of one!

It wouldn't be too far fetched to presume that the Gman used the Vorts as a pawn (as your own interpretation of their speech may have hinted) merely to attract the Combine to Earth for some reason. Or perhaps that wasn't an occurence he planned for, and despite you killing Nihilanth off in accordance with his wishes the Combine stepped in and ruined the party...

I've never read RTB back to back- but would I be wrong in thinking that the portal storms that attracted the Combine's attention resulted from Nihilanth's violent death? We all know it was his "special ability" to manipulate and maintain portals, and his demise would've caused chaos considering how many he'd started.

Oh, and Nihilanth isn't the Combine Advisor, who is a "true" Combine, a sluggish species that uses its advanced technology to overcome their physical decline and enslave civillisations to do their own work for them. Although I've heard speculation that Nihilanth is, somehow, a Combine species... I always thought he was maybe cobbled together from spare parts to act as a telepathic slave driver.

 

[Laivasse]

Essentially, I just think it's much easier to argue away the Vort quotes than it is the fact that the Combine seem so incompatible with Xen (ie, no Xen forces, no Xen teleporting, no structures on Xen). Also that the Combine, for me, make a much more imposing enemy, and HL2's story becomes so much more harsh and affecting, if you consider them as completely unrelated.

The idea that some curious scientists can screw up enough to make Earth unlivable just through one experiment gone wrong, and invite the wrath of one deadly alien race in HL1...and then when we're just about trying to deal with that, another, 50x deadlier extraterrestrial threat comes along, parks mile-tall buildings all over us, turns off reproduction and starts turning us into expendable shock troops...that's some impact!

 

[Edcrab]

I suppose, ultimately, the end result is the same regardless of the backstory- either the Combine somehow enslaved the Xenians post-HL1, or they've never seen either of our species before and are simply opportunists who have spotted us living alongside stranded Vorts- either way, we all end up enslaved!

'Cept for that Gordon Freeman guy, but what difference would he make...

DOUBLE EDIT: You have a good point in that the Combine- who are meant to "steal" the best abilities of every species they encounter- don't use something as undeniably potent as simple teleportation, without the need for slow-charging, bulky apparatus.

But then I thought- what if they did, but the loss of the portal-encouraging mineral stockpiles of Xen and the Nihilanth who could focus them all robbed them of that ability?

But then, in yet another counter argument, why the hell weren't the Combine defending or rushing to the aid of such a useful force?

Maybe it is better to think of them as seperate entities who had their own strengths and weaknesses- hell, human scientists can make better teleporters than the Combine, for crying out loud! That's a weakness if ever I saw one...

 

[Laivasse]

I've never read RTB back to back- but would I be wrong in thinking that the portal storms that attracted the Combine's attention resulted from Nihilanth's violent death? We all know it was his "special ability" to manipulate and maintain portals, and his demise would've caused chaos considering how many he'd started.

Yes, I was under the impression that the portal storms were similar to the portal disturbances at Black Mesa, just taken to a global scale. The scientists in the lambda lab seemed to think that killing N. would stop the disturbances, but HL2 shows us that they got much worse - you could make believe that this was misinformation fed by the GMan. That would serve numerous purposes - 1) Gordon would want to kill Nihilanth to stop the portals, 2) the portals would spread and ruin Earth (Gman wants Earth ruined?), 3) the Combine would somehow notice with their Dimensionaldisturbanc-o-mometer (Gman wanted to attract the Combine?)

I have been told that RtB says that "Portal Storms" refers to the portals the Combine arrived in on...I don't remember that bit in RtB, anyway, so I'm sticking to my theory.

 

[Laivasse]

or they've never seen either of our species before and are simply opportunists who have spotted us living alongside stranded Vorts- either way, we all end up enslaved!

That pretty much sums up what I think - the Combine are deadly and incredibly effective opportunists. They didn't notice or go to Xen for whatever reason...but there's a ton of reasons why they'd notice and take an interest in Earth. Lots of disturbance here (during and since HL1) to attract their attention, they evidently like our tech, we're practically finished anyway, and they get to knock off 2 fully sentient races into the bargain.

Although the vorts seem to be on floor-sweeping duty while we get sent to the front line...maybe they've got some Trans-vorting on the agenda, which involves sticking brooms in place of arms and sponges on the soles of their feet.

 

[Laivasse]

But then I thought- what if they did, but the loss of portal-encouraging mineral stockpiles of Xen and the Nihilanth whou could focus them all robbed them of that ability?

...

Maybe it is better to think of them as seperate entities who had their own strengths and weaknesses- hell, human scientists can make better teleporters than the Combine, for crying out loud! That's a weakness if ever I saw one...

Remember that the teleporters built by the resistance are reliant on Xen somehow - Mossman waffles about it for a few seconds. So that would suggest that whatever gave Xen its strange teleportation properties still exists. If the Combine knew about Xen, and knew about teleporting, but were dependent on humans to build their teleporters for them (a la Mossman's knowledge and the Nova Prospekt machine), well that would be shameful....hang your head, gasmasked potato-slug.

 

[Laivasse]

By the way

Is that Nihilianth Breen is always talking to on his monitor?

No. That is a Combine "advisor". He represents the original race that the Combine empire grew from.

 

[Edcrab]

Congratulations, you're probably the first person on this forum who has ever managed to change my opinion on something

Admittedly I'm not going to go fully either way in case Valve introduces something drastically different which makes me look like an idiot, but I will admit that your interpretation is certainly more intense

 

[Laivasse]

Congratulations, you're probably the first person on this forum who has ever managed to change my opinion on something

Admittedly I'm not going to go fully either way in case Valve introduces something drastically different which makes me look like an idiot, but I will admit that your interpretation is certainly more intense

Thanks very much! :thumbs:

If you want you can call it 1 - 1, cos there's a wav that you mentioned in another thread which has shaken my conviction that Civil Protection are modified humans, instead of just voluntary sign-ups...I've been the lone "CP are transhuman!" guy for ages ;( Gonna have to mull that one over...

As for Valve, you can never know what they're going to do next...personally, I wouldn't betoo bothered if they left questions vaguely unanswered (as they have done until now), instead of giving crap answers because they were forced to. Like, "oh yeah, GMan is Gordon from the future, bet noone saw THAT coming!!! Impressed, eh!!?"

Everyone on Halflife2.net: " :| "

 

[Langolier]

Blah, blah blah....don't mean to be rude, but you're doing what all people who believe the Combine controlled Xen have done over and over, which is to twist your theory into corkscrews to make it fit. And it can't be denied that it can fit. The only problem is that there is no reason to try. There is nothing that suggests the Combine were on Xen, ever, ever, ever, yet people jump through hoops trying to develop super complex theories that sound stupid but just about manage to fit everything in. Why do this...DESIST!

No offense, dude, but it does come across as kind of rude. I, and everyone else, has already explained how tid bits of evidence in the first game, and in Half-Life 2 can be interrpreted to be alusions to a past Combine presence on Xen. No, it is not definate fact, but it is also not a certain fact that they weren't there. As it currently stands it is completely up to your own opinion. Nothing PROVES it either way. I never said it did, only that it was possible.

If Nihilanth had said this in HL2 when the Combine existed, there would be no argument - the Combine would be on Xen, and we'd all be sipping tea together marvelling at how simple the story is. However, Nihilanth said this in HL1 when the Combine didn't exist -

Do you know that for a fact, or are you just assuming? (as my grandmother would say, assuming makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me') If it is directly stated somewhere then I'll concede that. I will also admit that it is very possible that Valve hadn't dreamed up the Combine in the first game. Once again though, the reverse is also true, and things in the first game, when compared to the second, can be interrpreted both ways.

if Valve wanted this to mean that the Combine were controlling Xen, they'd have had to been able to see into the future and predict their own invention of the Combine. This is possible although incredibly unlikely. What is impossible is that they would open that potential plotline, and then completely neglect to close it in HL2.

Right, because Valve has made sure to answer all our questions about the storyline so far.

The proof of Combine on Xen has to come from HL2, because HL2 contains Valve's updated vision of the HL universe. But there is no proof at all....there isn't even the suggestion of it.....and yet people insist on....aaah,whatever.

Again: many things can be interrpreted both ways. Nothing is known for sure, it's up to the player to decide.

(btw this is a complete misquote) A more accurate version of this is iirc "Let this conflict end in either total victory, or our own extinction. No further compromise will we accept" This quote says nothing at all about CoX-theories one way or the other, but I suspected you were trying to say that the Combine would wipe out the Vortigaunts if they won, implying past history together. Note the bit I have boldized which shows that it is the Vortigaunts who are dictating the terms of this conflict - the reason they would be wiped out is because they would have fought up until their own obliteration.

You're taking your own opinion again and stating it as proven fact when it is not. Maybe they mean that they will not allow the Combine to opress them on Earth as they did on Xen. Maybe they mean they won't let the Combine opress them on Earth as Nihilanth did on Xen (independent from the Combine). Maybe they are just speaking for the Resistance as a whole. It is suggested by Breen in Nova Prospekt that if Humanity does not incorporate itself into the Combine, that if it does not prove itsefl useful, that it will go extinct. Perhaps the Resistance knows this... perhaps they would all rather be dead than serving as the newest branch of the Overwatch.

RIGHT! actually. As Lawyer said, Valve chose that weird looking metal as a symbol for the Combine's presence wherever they were, because it clashed so obviously with any natural earth materials. The Combine build all of their stuff out of that substance, whatever it is. There is none of that particular type of metal on Xen=no Combine.

I already explained how that might not be true, and the person who originally started to resist the idea of a Combine presence on Xen was going on the basis of what we don't know. Well... you don't really know a whole lot about the Combine do you? You don't know that the methods of control and conquest used on Earth are identical to all those used on other worlds. We know very little about the Combine.

However, it is obvious that there would be none of that metal there, since the Combine were not concieved of at that point. Therefore, if Valve intended their new badguy to exist retroactively in the story, they would have explained how in HL2.

The circle is complete.

Very possible, but not fact. It's open to interrpretation.

*waits for someone to ask "but wot abuot teh nilahrababbarnhth azzjet l0lz0rzzz!!!!11111"* :|

That Nihilanth quote is perhaps the strongest possible evidence that Valve did think up the Combine from the very start. He was certainly referring to something. What exactly is, as I've said many times, not known for sure. I don't think we ever will know for sure. Both sides of this argument are equally plausible.

Edit: Typo

 

[Laivasse]

No, it is not definate fact, but it is also not a certain fact that they weren't there. As it currently stands it is completely up to your own opinion. Nothing PROVES it either way. I never said it did, only that it was possible.

This debate has never been about the facts of the story, since they're relatively few. I said that in my own post. It's more about which scenario seems most likely, and was originally brought up in response to the fact that everyone seemed to automatically assume that the Combine were connected to Xen, leaving a few of us bemused and wondering why.

That said, just a few points:

If Nihilanth had said this in HL2 when the Combine existed, there would be no argument - the Combine would be on Xen, and we'd all be sipping tea together marvelling at how simple the story is. However, Nihilanth said this in HL1 when the Combine didn't exist -

Do you know that for a fact, or are you just assuming? (as my grandmother would say, assuming makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me') If it is directly stated somewhere then I'll concede that. I will also admit that it is very possible that Valve hadn't dreamed up the Combine in the first game.

It stands to reason, no matter how you look at it, that if the Combine existed at the time of HL1 then that's mutually exclusive with Combine control of Xen. It's simple - if Valve knew what the Combine were and wanted them on Xen, they would have put some Combine hallmarks on Xen. However, I don't try and argue that route, I think it's far more logical that Valve hadn't thought up the Combine by then.

You can see in RtB the convoluted path of design that the Combine took. Granted you could assume that this begun before HL1 was released, but at that time Valve had no way of knowing there would be any demand for a sequel. This is borne out by the tons of opened story threads Valve opened in the first game, without seemingly knowing or caring what they were doing other than the fact that they were adding depth - faceless Administrator, "Government" man, "Xen is under our control", human soldiers under a Xen skybox at the end, lots of bizarre Nihilanth quotes, etc.

With the "slaves" quote from the first game (and the assjet, if you insist :|) Valve had left the route open for unveiling a race that may have controlled Nihilanth, purposefully or not we don't know. With the Combine, they potentially had that race - the synths are our evidence for the fact that the Combine go to different worlds in order to take species, make them funky, and use them in future conquests. For Valve to make a nice neat continuous storyline that included Xen all they had to do was add some pointers.

Right, because Valve has made sure to answer all our questions about the storyline so far.

Answer, no, very heavy handedly imply, yes! The Gman can't speak properly, vanishes into thin air, and wears a nice suit and strolls around the countryside at a time when humanity is being systematically exterminated - hmm, human? Valve have left it open to opinion, but only by the barest margin. For Valve to go consciously out of their way in HL1 to suggest a master alien, and then not even allude to it in HL2 (and there really isn't anything in HL2 that contsitutes an allusion - prove me wrong)...that would be very cackhanded storytelling for Valve. I said "impossible before"...well, I don't associate Laidlaw so far with bad storytelling, so to me it is impossible.

As for the vortigaunts and their waffle:

Maybe they mean that they will not allow the Combine to opress them on Earth as they did on Xen. Maybe they mean they won't let the Combine opress them on Earth as Nihilanth did on Xen (independent from the Combine).

I'm sorry, but the quote is not that open to interpretation. A human could say exactly the same line and you wouldn't blink (except at the weird syntax). It wouldn't mean that humanity had prior experience with the Combine. This is *not* evidence (either for or against). If the vorts had said something like..."we shall not let them take us again...!" I wouldn't even be arguing. You have to wonder why Valve, if they really had intended a Combine/Xen link, haven't included a pointer like that. But this line you've stated is nothing like that. It's just an affirmation of war. You could read some background into it if you already believe something about their background...the same way you can read into "my employers" when GMan says that, because he's so damn weird, but the statement on its own means nothing.

Weird metal + absence of, on Xen:

I already explained how that might not be true, and the person who originally started to resist the idea of a Combine presence on Xen was going on the basis of what we don't know. Well... you don't really know a whole lot about the Combine do you? You don't know that the methods of control and conquest used on Earth are identical to all those used on other worlds. We know very little about the Combine.

Well as I said, it's perfectly possible to construct a serpentine theory which encompasses Combine on Xen. What is fact is that Valve aren't totally random with the hints they drop (I mean...come on). Behind much of the weirdest stuff they create is one big pointer, with a lot of supposition as an alternative. You could assume that GMan is somewhat special....or you could construct a massive theory about how he's some drunk guy who fell asleep in his office at Black Mesa and is desperately searching for his way home. Of course, that's hyperbole but other subjective points with *big* pointers are:

that blue metal - Combine signature
synths - combine make semi-mechanical forces out of conquered species
citadels seen through portal - citadels are a combine signature

Like I say, you can umm and ahh, and say "ah, well maybe the Combine forgot to bring that metal when they went to Xen...and it was too soft on the surface, so no citadels...!...and yeah, maybe they ended up on Xen by accident, so didn't use the Xen species for anything....oh yeah and I remember you only saw about 20 of those yellow crystals on Xen in HL1 so that would mean the Combine would eventually run out of Teleporto-Force, which is why they can't do it in HL2". You can argue that...

Well... you don't really know a whole lot about the Combine do you? You don't know that the methods of control and conquest used on Earth are identical to all those used on other worlds. We know very little about the Combine.

...but I think it's wilfully ignoring the apparent intention behind elements of Combine design in HL2. Which is IMO kind of missing the point of some cool storytelling and design ideas.

Unfortunately some people latch onto this tactic of Valve's, of telling the story through gentle hints, and then pick up *any* element and then inexplicably try and bend all the other stronger hints around that one aspect. Like "omg, the nlihaght has a meatl azz!!...teh CR0mbine have meatl t00...wut duhz zis meern?!?!?!1/1/1/1 :naughty:" I dunno, I just think that no Combine on Xen is the most common sense, and coolest feeling approah.

 

[Laivasse]

You might also want to check this thread's sister thread (now long-dead), which this thread was started in response to because the Combine-on-Xen believers were taking too much of a kicking

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72731

 

[Mith']

RIGHT! actually. As Lawyer said, Valve chose that weird looking metal as a symbol for the Combine's presence wherever they were, because it clashed so obviously with any natural earth materials. The Combine build all of their stuff out of that substance, whatever it is. There is none of that particular type of metal on Xen=no Combine. However, it is obvious that there would be none of that metal there, since the Combine were not concieved of at that point. Therefore, if Valve intended their new badguy to exist retroactively in the story, they would have explained how in HL2.

But you can't make a golden neclace without gold! With no obvious metal resourses on Xen, they couldn't make any metal citadels, or control points, buildings and control panels... And instead of importing all that metal, they imported only the needed materials (assjet), and learned to use Xen resourses, on earth, the combine could knock themself out with metal, like they prefer..

 

[ríomhaire]

You might also want to check this thread's sister thread (now long-dead), which this thread was started in response to because the Combine-on-Xen believers were taking too much of a kicking

Is Pai-Mei still with us?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, all the Valve "sponsored" literature (well, RTB basically) alludes to a Combine presence on Xen, regardless of what we decide.

Ever read Raising the Bar? If anything, it further distances the Combine and Xen.

To quote:

"Vortigaunts are a hive-minded, energy-wielding slave race, inadvertently liverated by Gordon Freeman when he destroyed the Nihilanth in the final battle of the Black Mesa Incident. Rather than fall under the dominion of the Combine, those Vortigaunts now stranded on Earth have joined with humans to fight for the freedom of all"

Notice the way they say it: "Rather than fall under the dominion of the Combine"

If they were already dominated by the Combine, it'd be phrased "Rather than fall under the dominion of the Combine a second time".

And the whole citadel was gated in at once, so the metal has to be off-world. And by the looks of things, the Combine aren't hopping from world to world just to be abusive to the inhabitants. They're after every resource the planet has. After all resources are gone (people included), they'd likely leave.

Which leads us to the point of, if the Combine were on Xen, why weren't they strip-mining the place like they are on Earth? (The moving walls, burrowing citadel, draining waters). And you'd see the citadel in the distance on Xen if it were there.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Jandor]

You might also want to check this thread's sister thread (now long-dead), which this thread was started in response to because the Combine-on-Xen believers were taking too much of a kicking

I wouldn't say taking a kicking.

And the whole citadel was gated in at once, so the metal has to be off-world. And by the looks of things, the Combine aren't hopping from world to world just to be abusive to the inhabitants. They're after every resource the planet has. After all resources are gone (people included), they'd likely leave.

Which leads us to the point of, if the Combine were on Xen, why weren't they strip-mining the place like they are on Earth? (The moving walls, burrowing citadel, draining waters). And you'd see the citadel in the distance on Xen if it were there.

Look at the planet, its made up of fragments, it looks pretty abused by the time we get there, also there are the funny green mining glowing things.

Where would they put a Citadel on Xen anyway?

However, I am sort of falling away from the Combine on Xen theory. I might just stay neutral until an expansion .

 

[ríomhaire]

Which leads us to the point of, if the Combine were on Xen, why weren't they strip-mining the place like they are on (The moving walls, burrowing citadel, draining waters).Earth?

There's not much on the part of Xen you were on to 'strip-mine'.

And you'd see the citadel in the distance on Xen if it were there.

I don't think so, I'd say the atmosphere of Xen is quite thick, you couldn't even see much more than the few platforms around you so there is a good chance you couldn't see it even if you were relativly near it. You may hve been really far away from it. Plus nobody said there was a citadel on Xen. Maybe they didn't have the citadel technology then, maybe they were even talor-made for the Earth invasion, they did know what they were doing as they teleported the ciadels right into the middle of the cities.

 

[Langolier]

Argh. Spent so much time reading the replies on page 4 that I forgot what the hell thread I was in.
...consider this an accidental double post.