Xen - Combine controlled or not

[Langolier]

I don't think so, I'd say the atmosphere of Xen is quite thick, you couldn't even see much more than the few platforms around you so there is a good chance you couldn't see it even if you were relativly near it. You may hve been really far away from it. Plus nobody said there was a citadel on Xen. Maybe they didn't have the citadel technology then, maybe they were even talor-made for the Earth invasion, they did know what they were doing as they teleported the ciadels right into the middle of the cities.

There are a few odd pointy structures that you can see in the distance. It's only visible in a few of the skyboxes, particularly the on used in that healing pool (with the two bullsquids) that Freeman teleports into. I can't remember where else that skybox is used. Anyway, one of the platforms in the distance has a very tall Tower coming out of it.

The quote about the Vortigaunts is interesting. Is there more to it? That quote could easily mean they don't want to fall under Combine Dominion again, or it could just as easily mean they don't want to get enslaved by a new force.

I used to be a firm believer that the Combine controlled Xen, but I will say that this thread has opened my eyes a bit to other possibilities. I'm inclined to believe the Combine controlled Xen, but maybe they didn't. I guess we'll just have to hope Valve makes the answer clear in the future.

This debate has never been about the facts of the story, since they're relatively few. I said that in my own post. It's more about which scenario seems most likely, and was originally brought up in response to the fact that everyone seemed to automatically assume that the Combine were connected to Xen, leaving a few of us bemused and wondering why.

Right, and the most likely scenario is dependent on how you interpret the 'facts'.

That said, just a few points:



It stands to reason, no matter how you look at it, that if the Combine existed at the time of HL1 then that's mutually exclusive with Combine control of Xen. It's simple - if Valve knew what the Combine were and wanted them on Xen, they would have put some Combine hallmarks on Xen. However, I don't try and argue that route, I think it's far more logical that Valve hadn't thought up the Combine by then.

Probably they didn't, but that doesn't mean that information learned about the Combine in HL2 can't be used to deduce Combine control of Xen.

You can see in RtB the convoluted path of design that the Combine took. Granted you could assume that this begun before HL1 was released, but at that time Valve had no way of knowing there would be any demand for a sequel. This is borne out by the tons of opened story threads Valve opened in the first game, without seemingly knowing or caring what they were doing other than the fact that they were adding depth - faceless Administrator, "Government" man, "Xen is under our control", human soldiers under a Xen skybox at the end, lots of bizarre Nihilanth quotes, etc.

You admit right there that they might have been alluding to one possible storyline in which another 'race' was controlling Xen. That race could easily be the "Combine".

With the "slaves" quote from the first game (and the assjet, if you insist :|) Valve had left the route open for unveiling a race that may have controlled Nihilanth, purposefully or not we don't know. With the Combine, they potentially had that race - the synths are our evidence for the fact that the Combine go to different worlds in order to take species, make them funky, and use them in future conquests. For Valve to make a nice neat continuous storyline that included Xen all they had to do was add some pointers.

Many people think there are pointers. Some disagree.

Answer, no, very heavy handedly imply, yes! The Gman can't speak properly, vanishes into thin air, and wears a nice suit and strolls around the countryside at a time when humanity is being systematically exterminated - hmm, human?

What's your point here? We aren't talking about the Gman. Perhaps you mean to imply that he could have been the one in charge? The "Slave keeper"? Sure, whatever, that's possible too, but you could also look at Breen as Earth's version of the Nihilanth.

Valve have left it open to opinion, but only by the barest margin.

If they were that concrete we wouldn't be having this debate.

For Valve to go consciously out of their way in HL1 to suggest a master alien, and then not even allude to it in HL2 (and there really isn't anything in HL2 that contsitutes an allusion - prove me wrong)...

I've talked about the Vortigaunt quotes... but you won't even consider anyone's interpretation but your own.

that would be very cackhanded storytelling for Valve. I said "impossible before"...well, I don't associate Laidlaw so far with bad storytelling, so to me it is impossible.

Right. Your opinion, your interpretation, not fact.

As for the vortigaunts and their waffle:


I'm sorry, but the quote is not that open to interpretation. A human could say exactly the same line and you wouldn't blink (except at the weird syntax). It wouldn't mean that humanity had prior experience with the Combine.

Considering some of their other quotes (which I'm not gonna try and write out off the top of my head), they seem to have suffered much in the past. They've been fighting a long time. Maybe they've been fighting/serving the Combine, maybe they're just tired of being handed from one slave owner to the next.

Weird metal + absence of, on Xen:



Well as I said, it's perfectly possible to construct a serpentine theory which encompasses Combine on Xen. What is fact is that Valve aren't totally random with the hints they drop (I mean...come on). Behind much of the weirdest stuff they create is one big pointer, with a lot of supposition as an alternative. You could assume that GMan is somewhat special....or you could construct a massive theory about how he's some drunk guy who fell asleep in his office at Black Mesa and is desperately searching for his way home. Of course, that's hyperbole but other subjective points with *big* pointers are:

that blue metal - Combine signature
synths - combine make semi-mechanical forces out of conquered species

Alien Grunts. Vortigaunt Slaves. The strange Xen "Ships" you see in the first game.

citadels seen through portal - citadels are a combine signature

Go back and look at those tall structures in Xen.

Like I say, you can umm and ahh, and say "ah, well maybe the Combine forgot to bring that metal when they went to Xen...and it was too soft on the surface, so no citadels...!...

Ok, first off, the reasons for the Citadel not being made with the same materials on Xen as they are on Earth is already explained above in the thread. Second: there is no reason for you to treat me, and anyone who disagrees with you, like a fool. So loose the attitude please. It is rude, and it is uncalled for.

and yeah, maybe they ended up on Xen by accident, so didn't use the Xen species for anything....oh yeah and I remember you only saw about 20 of those yellow crystals on Xen in HL1 so that would mean the Combine would eventually run out of Teleporto-Force, which is why they can't do it in HL2". You can argue that...

Huh? I'll take your word for it.

...but I think it's wilfully ignoring the apparent intention behind elements of Combine design in HL2. Which is IMO kind of missing the point of some cool storytelling and design ideas.

Thank you. My opinion is not the same as yours though.

I dunno, I just think that no Combine on Xen is the most common sense, and coolest feeling approah.

Fair enough. I feel they are both quite possible. Prior to reading this thread I took Combine control of Xen to be fact, now I just consider it possible.

 

[Jandor]

Why does everyone steal my thunder, I declare I'm wavering a bit on the Combine on Xen theory, and soon everyone follows. .

 

[ríomhaire]

Does anyone have a screen of those structures? on Xen?
I cannot find my HL CD so I can't play HL or OP4, are they anywhere in BS?

 

[Laivasse]

This debate seems to simmer up and die down like a bout of arthritis...since it seems to be dying down again I'll just try to cap off a few things:

Answer, no, very heavy handedly imply, yes! The Gman can't speak properly, vanishes into thin air, and wears a nice suit and strolls around the countryside at a time when humanity is being systematically exterminated - hmm, human?

What's your point here? We aren't talking about the Gman. Perhaps you mean to imply that he could have been the one in charge? The "Slave keeper"? Sure, whatever, that's possible too, but you could also look at Breen as Earth's version of the Nihilanth.

As you well know, we were talking about Valve's method of storytelling. I hate it when people make a slightly off-topic point, then when someone makes a likewise OT counterpoint they get accused of being OT. The characterisation of Gman is an example of the hints Valve drop in order to lead the player towards some form of conclusion, while still leaving it fundamentally open. My point was that Valve failing to leave hints leading towards a conclusion of Combine-on-Xen - and they have failed in HL2 apart from one extremely vague vortigaunt quote, which can be interpreted in any number of ways - is completely out of character with their storytelling.

Alien Grunts. Vortigaunt Slaves. The strange Xen "Ships" you see in the first game.

The grunts and vorts are still obviously organic, and probably entirely so. Synths seem more mechanical than organic. Vents, sparks, smoke, go clang, etc. The grunts also appeared to be "grown" from pods in some way, in the vein of Xen's strange organic-based factory, which is not a Combine trademark. I don't see any connection with those ships at all. I'll also reiterate that any Combine-on-Xen argument should not be based entirely on HL1 content, when it's highly likely that the Combine weren't even finalised.

Also the stalkers=vortigaunts thing is such a loose connection...you may as well make a parallel between any enslaved race and any other enslaved race. Were the Combine involved in ancient Rome?

citadels seen through portal - citadels are a combine signature

Go back and look at those tall structures in Xen.

They are nothing like the Combine citadel. Again, that's like comparing any tall building to any other tall building. I fail to see why the Combine would so drastically change their architectural style between invasions.And if you really think that the final section of HL1 (Xen Factory) was very similar to the final section of HL2 (Combine citadel) then there's nothing I can say that would make you see things differently.

Like I say, you can umm and ahh, and say "ah, well maybe the Combine forgot to bring that metal when they went to Xen...and it was too soft on the surface, so no citadels...!...

Ok, first off, the reasons for the Citadel not being made with the same materials on Xen as they are on Earth is already explained above in the thread. Second: there is no reason for you to treat me, and anyone who disagrees with you, like a fool. So loose the attitude please. It is rude, and it is uncalled for.

Get off your high horse. You have an argument that is barely backed up with anything, and because I don't nod my head politely and say "it's possible..." you accuse me of being rude. I said in my first post that I "don't mean to be rude" and you threw it back in my face immediately after; I didn't say anything, but don't harp on.

To clarify this has been about the 4th recent thread on this subject...I think they've all been at least 5 pages long, one stretched to 14 pages, and the ground is clearly staked out within them. If I seem tetchy it's because I've already spent a lot of time arguing and reading arguments about this, and seeing the same unchanging arguments over and over gets tiresome. However, bringing up old issues is fair enough because you only just joined, so if I came off as a little overzealous, I'm sorry about that.

Is Pai-Mei still with us?

Hasn't posted for a few weeks I think...holiday?

 

[ríomhaire]

The grunts and vorts are still obviously organic, and probably entirely so. Synths seem more mechanical than organic. Vents, sparks, smoke, go clang, etc. The grunts also appeared to be "grown" from pods in some way, in the vein of Xen's strange organic-based factory, which is not a Combine trademark

We don't know any Combine trademark. We see 1 citadel and you make the conclution that every other Combine building is identical. They have clearly adapted to using Earth tech so they could have adapter to Xen tech. We have seen no Combine forces, just synths and Overwatch. The army that defeated Earth in 7-hours is gone exept for a few synths. They pulled out of Earth when it was considered stable leaving a small peace-keeping force behind. Xen was completly stable (nobody had free-will) so they pulled out all forces.

 

[Laivasse]

We don't know any Combine trademark.

Well in a way that's my point about Valve's storytelling. You can assume that whatever the Combine have done on Earth is just specific to Earth, and they change their "style" wherever they go. However, there's no reason to think that. I'm not saying it couldn't theoretically be true, but if why start assuming that the Combine do stuff differently to what we see in HL2?

They have clearly adapted to using Earth tech so they could have adapter to Xen tech.

The Combine haven't "adapted" to Earth tech at all, they adapted Earth tech to their tech, then used that. They use some earth guns, but I reckon that would probably be for cheapness andconvenience more than anything else. Wherever the Combine have made their stamp - put down their own buildings, used their own architecture, etc - it's very obviously not that of Earth. Big shimmering blue metal walls devouring grey housing estates, etc...you don't see such disparate elements in the Xen landscape.

Xen was completly stable (nobody had free-will) so they pulled out all forces.

And got what out of it?

EDIT- misread you

 

[Angry Lawyer]

We don't know any Combine trademark

Almost everything in the Combine arsenal has an insignia on it, actually, from the largest of Synth, to the lowliest of Soldier.

And, in Raising the Bar, didn't one bit have the Combine using Vortigaunts in bottles as power sources, and you having to free them? Makes little sense for two worlds to use them in such different ways, if they are controlled by the same power.

If they were on Xen, and did pull out, they'd likely take absolutely everything with them. They don't seem to be the kind to waste anything.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[ríomhaire]

I'm glad Pai-Mei isn't here to see me argueing this again.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

He's here in spirit. Trust me.

-Angry Lawyer