a moral/ethical question regarding the bannings

[coleco]

Never mind my above post now :angel: .. you've answered now anyway.

 

[The Dark Elf]

I've been reading this thread with some interest but could someone please explain a few things to me..

Firstly when they ban an account do they lock out the legitimate keys associated with that account? This seems like an important point because if they don't then the whole argument is moot because anyone that's banned can re-register their legit keys under a new account. That makes the banning of account nothing more than an inconvienence.

I can't see that valve would lockout legit keys because then you'll have copies of games floating around with keys that don't work. Including people that bought legit copies of previous valve games then used an 'pirate' key with halflife2 and got banned. Then you could sell that game on ebay or something and the keys wouldn't work any more.

I'd also like to point out that if someone hacks your computer and finds out your key and steam login, you are sol; throw your copy of halflife2 in the garbage. You can't play in single player or multiplayer ever again.

Also I'd like to point out that fair use laws state that when you buy something that you own it and you can do whatever you want with it, provided you aren't breaking the law (I don't live in the US so the DMCA doesn't apply to me). If I want to hack halflife2 that's my perogative. If I want to use halflife2 with a cd-crack so I don't have to hunt for the cd all the time then that's also my perogative. Am I going to get banned for using a cd-crack now?

What happens if you lose the cd-key? I've done it before. I guess we go back to the scenario having to throw the game in the garbage.

The awful truth AFAIK is that people do d/l pirate games to evaluate before they buy. I do it all the time. Guess what? most games suck, I d/l them, I try them and delete them the same day. I've always done it. I d/led farcry before I bought it and I d/led NFSU2 before I bought it. A lot of games look good, sound good in the review then lick sweaty ballsack when you try them. It isn't $10 we're talking about here, it's $60, that's a lot of money.

Also I'd like to point out that punitive action against pirating is not the responsibility of valve, it's the responsibility of the government. If you infringe copyrights, you can be charged but it would have to go through the courts. Regardless of the morality of pirating hallife2 Valve is still leaving themselves open for a class action lawsuit if they actually disable people's games (I'm not sure we've proven that they even have yet) just based on the fact as discussed that unknowing people with legit keys could be sold useless games for various reasons.

Finally I'd like to point out that digital content providers are increasing pushing a model where we don't 'own' content, but rather 'lease' it in that we must abide by whatever restrictions they decide. What valve has done with Steam is essentially a DRM system for games. If you were required to log in and register a music CD with an account before you could listen to it, how would feel about that?

the dling warez to test a game before buying is silly.. play the demo, most have them, HL is different currently in that respect, but there was always the CS:S beta as a trial run.

There is no good reason in the world to pirate games instead of buying them. Besides, no point pirating on steam, everytime Valve update the steam platform or the game you'll need to wait for a crack to come out

As for banning accounts, they are allowed to, including disabling anything attached to that account.. If someone was stupid enough to register a legit copy on the same account they were trying to use a version illegally, then nobody in the world can disagree that they must be a few cans short of a six pack.

 

[GetCool]

Also I'd like to point out that fair use laws state that when you buy something that you own it and you can do whatever you want with it, provided you aren't breaking the law (I don't live in the US so the DMCA doesn't apply to me). If I want to hack halflife2 that's my perogative. If I want to use halflife2 with a cd-crack so I don't have to hunt for the cd all the time then that's also my perogative.

Not exactly. You purchase a license when you buy software, which means the software is still technically the property of the developer, and they have the right at any time to break your license agreement, essentially taking back the software from you. Think of it as "leasing" something. It sounds screwed up, but that's the way all EULAs are. Read the HL2 EULA if you want an example.

Also I'd like to point out that punitive action against pirating is not the responsibility of valve, it's the responsibility of the government. If you infringe copyrights, you can be charged but it would have to go through the courts. Regardless of the morality of pirating hallife2 Valve is still leaving themselves open for a class action lawsuit if they actually disable people's games (I'm not sure we've proven that they even have yet) just based on the fact as discussed that unknowing people with legit keys could be sold useless games for various reasons.

You're right, but Valve is not prosecuting criminals. They are simply breaking end-user license agreements. They are playing the part of the protective owner of copyrighted material, not legal prosecutor.

Finally I'd like to point out that digital content providers are increasing pushing a model where we don't 'own' content, but rather 'lease' it in that we must abide by whatever restrictions they decide. What valve has done with Steam is essentially a DRM system for games. If you were required to log in and register a music CD with an account before you could listen to it, how would feel about that?

I've got news for you; computer software has been like this for a very long time alread. Read any of the EULAs you agreed to in the last 10+ years. Steam is just a terrifically convenient new means for Valve to enforce EULAs.

I know that's only answering a few of your questions, but you have a lot in there and I just wanted to start with the legal stuff. I don't agree with any of it any more than you do, but I thought I should point out these things.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I've been reading this thread with some interest but could someone please explain a few things to me..

Firstly when they ban an account do they lock out the legitimate keys associated with that account? This seems like an important point because if they don't then the whole argument is moot because anyone that's banned can re-register their legit keys under a new account. That makes the banning of account nothing more than an inconvienence.

They disable the entire account. That includes any games associated with it.

I can't see that valve would lockout legit keys because then you'll have copies of games floating around with keys that don't work. Including people that bought legit copies of previous valve games then used an 'pirate' key with halflife2 and got banned. Then you could sell that game on ebay or something and the keys wouldn't work any more.

Well, they do.

I'd also like to point out that if someone hacks your computer and finds out your key and steam login, you are sol; throw your copy of halflife2 in the garbage. You can't play in single player or multiplayer ever again.

Not true. If you registered your steam account to a valid email address, you can get the password and change it. Your CD key is not stored in plaintext anywhere on your PC for someone to get.

Also I'd like to point out that fair use laws state that when you buy something that you own it and you can do whatever you want with it, provided you aren't breaking the law (I don't live in the US so the DMCA doesn't apply to me). If I want to hack halflife2 that's my perogative. If I want to use halflife2 with a cd-crack so I don't have to hunt for the cd all the time then that's also my perogative. Am I going to get banned for using a cd-crack now?

It's highly unlikely.

What happens if you lose the cd-key? I've done it before. I guess we go back to the scenario having to throw the game in the garbage.

Why would it be any different? You lose the CD key, you've effectively lost the game. Don't lose your CD key Although, if you've already registered the key with Steam, it doesn't matter. You only need your Steam login.

The awful truth AFAIK is that people do d/l pirate games to evaluate before they buy. I do it all the time. Guess what? most games suck, I d/l them, I try them and delete them the same day. I've always done it. I d/led farcry before I bought it and I d/led NFSU2 before I bought it. A lot of games look good, sound good in the review then lick sweaty ballsack when you try them. It isn't $10 we're talking about here, it's $60, that's a lot of money.

That still doesn't justify it, or make it right.

Also I'd like to point out that punitive action against pirating is not the responsibility of valve, it's the responsibility of the government. If you infringe copyrights, you can be charged but it would have to go through the courts. Regardless of the morality of pirating hallife2 Valve is still leaving themselves open for a class action lawsuit if they actually disable people's games (I'm not sure we've proven that they even have yet) just based on the fact as discussed that unknowing people with legit keys could be sold useless games for various reasons.

And the government are doing such a sterling job of halting game piracy, aren't they?
Valve disabled 20,000 accounts that were using the same key. I think it's unlikely that it's down to some fraudster selling them on ebay...

Finally I'd like to point out that digital content providers are increasing pushing a model where we don't 'own' content, but rather 'lease' it in that we must abide by whatever restrictions they decide. What valve has done with Steam is essentially a DRM system for games. If you were required to log in and register a music CD with an account before you could listen to it, how would feel about that?

Well, I definitely own HL2. Paid for, up front. If I do something that causes my account to get banned, then that's my tough luck.

 

[barabis]

I dont think they should have disabled his legit cd key. His account maybe but not his legit key.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

/me bangs head against desk

Valve disabled his account .

He had registered his legit key to that account. Therefore, he lost the ability to use that key.

 

[barabis]

/me bangs head against desk

Valve disabled his account .

He had registered his legit key to that account. Therefore, he lost the ability to use that key.

I know what he did but its the blocking of the key just because he used it on a banned account which I think is OTT. Surely Valve must know that once the illegal key was used the second key was in all probability a legit attempt at playing the game.
Ofcourse there is always a chance they might reactivate the key if he emails them and explains.

 

[^Ben]

Shesh.

Some people here are idiots,

I tell you what when all the good companys have gone bust like valve, id and all the other good companies that are not tied to a publishers leash, and we only have companies that only purpose is putting out shitty games that the mass market will only consume, like madden 2004/5/6/7/8. And the only viable gaming platform is the console i'll know who to turn too.

Pirates.

If you where dumb enough to put a widley circulated CD key into an online authentication system and THEN put in a legal CD key. You should be fired from the internet and should hand in your keys at the desk as you leave.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Just get a pirate copy and stop worrying about it. You bought the game so why shouldn't you? Steam is crap and everyone knows it. Also, most of the people here are just assholes, so don't listen to them.

Why are you posting here then?

 

[.ñµkËz]

Bull. You used a WareZ copy of the game. Glad to see that Valve's system works.

 

[.ñµkËz]

you could take the game back to shop if you bought it from shop . replace it with a new one saying the disc is faulty

Retailers will not give refunds on HL2.

 

[TEDR]

They do if u say it not work they give u replacement. they have to by law. they dont have to refund you are right but i NEVER said that . learn to read

 

[Blublu]

Why are you posting here then?

Why not? By the way, I bought the game, legally and everything. I just don't see why the original poster should buy another copy of the game. Of course, it would be better if he could get a replacement from the store (with a new key and everything), but I doubt that will happen.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Also, most of the people here are just assholes, so don't listen to them.

Taking your advice...

 

[Blublu]

If you're going to quote and mock the post I made, you could at least not delete the original post, so that others can at least read it in context. Oh well. I'm leaving this thread, it's getting too hot.

 

[NikolaX]

steam = breadshop monopoly.

lol

 

[Squeetard]

Bah. They did a mass banning of an illegal key. 22,000 of them. They neither had the time nor resources to look for special cases like yours.

I dl lots of games. Got sick of paying $50 for the crap lots of developers try to pass off as entertainment. But if I like I buy. So I guess I'd be pissed too if this happened to me.

 

[cabe]

i'm sure they had the time to look for cases like mine. it's not like the bad key actually worked. nobody was getting HL2 for free. to boot, those 20k disabled accounts were not necessiarly USING the key, but had only ATTEMPTED to use the key. my account was using a legitimate paid-for HL2 key when it got disabled.

i also agree that the EULA is unethical, especially in the case of how valve enforced it in this instance. (please realize that i'm not arguing the legality. if anyone is under the impression that all laws are perfect, i assure you, they are not)

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I'm sure Valve had the time. I don't see them having much inclination though, and why should they?

You want to discuss ethics?

Attempting to steal a game is unethical.

 

[FictiousWill]

The fact that he bought the game is irrelevant.

He tried to illegally obtain the game. The consequences are fully deserved.

Quite right.

 

[cabe]

I'm sure Valve had the time. I don't see them having much inclination though, and why should they?

You want to discuss ethics?

Attempting to steal a game is unethical.

not arguing that point, either. however, it sounds like you're saying that it justifies valve acting in whatever manner they feel, even if it's unethical.

plus valve's copy protection WORKS! why should they care if i tried to enter a hundered illigitimate keys? none of them actually worked! the only thing valve has lost is a little bandwidth when i tried to register the thing. no harm done to valve.

eye for an eye justice may seem effective, but i hope we can all agree that it's not ethical.

 

[Squeetard]

Oh please, you entered the key from a known pirated version of the game.

We are discussing morals and now you are nitpicking.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

and if people agreed that it was unethical? Then what? Would it make you feel better? Would it give you back your copy of HL2?

So what does it matter?

 

[cabe]

well, i've already exchanged my game, so i'm not trying to get valve to give me back my copy of HL2. i knew that posting on a forum wasn't going to help me get the game back in the first place, either.

i am just looking for some other peoples' opinions, because i've got some free time and felt like discussing it. it's been a pretty enjoyably interesting debate thus far!

 

[coleco]

I'd just like firstly to say that I don't particularly agree or disagree with piracy. I buy games so therefore I don't care.

I don't *support* piracy because I want to give my money to a developer if I play it and I like it. Steam is a good idea on the one hand because it's cuts out the greedy publisher.

On the other hand I admit to d/ling games in the past. If I play it any more than week then I buy it. I'm just admitting it because I'm not a hypocrite. By the way, I also d/l .mp3s before I buy the cd. :O

Piracy is a great marketing tool, don't forget that.

Lets not weep for the developers too much. An old friend of mine was a game developer.. he worked on the original Homeworld. He openly 'didn't care' if pirated it because he was making good money anyway. Have you seen the numbers for the big game companies these days? They're rolling in money like you wouldn't believe.

Halo 2 made $125 million *in the first day* I'm sure Half life 2 isn't doing half bad either.

I still don't *support* piracy. If I couldn't pirate I might buy less games though.

They disable the entire account. That includes any games associated with it.





Not true. If you registered your steam account to a valid email address, you can get the password and change it. Your CD key is not stored in plaintext anywhere on your PC for someone to get.

Keyloggers? And they can get ahold of your email and change your password too. Oops.

And the government are doing such a sterling job of halting game piracy, aren't they?
Valve disabled 20,000 accounts that were using the same key. I think it's unlikely that it's down to some fraudster selling them on ebay...

You misunderstand. I'm saying if a key is banned permenantly, then I can sell the game on ebay and the key won't work for the person that buys it.

This is problem really with DRM and banning accounts and such. Because if someone pirates a game you are assuming firstly that they *won't buy the game* and that they will *never buy another game from you* because you're assuming that if someone copies a game that they are a sociopath and steal everything all the time. Obviously this is not true. People pirate and buy all the time, probably 90% of people fall into this catagory. What ever happened to 'the customer is always right'.

The other problem is assuming that everyone can afford if or would buy it if can't pirate it. Every pirated copy doesn't represent a lost sale because some people simply can't afford it. So stringent copy protection may have virtually no effect whatsoever on sales of a game. But it might mean that little 14 year old Jimmy that can't afford the game is now permenantly pissed off at valve.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Lets not weep for the developers too much. An old friend of mine was a game developer.. he worked on the original Homeworld. He openly 'didn't care' if pirated it because he was making good money anyway. Have you seen the numbers for the big game companies these days? They're rolling in money like you wouldn't believe.

Publishers make lots of money. Developers typically make very little - usually enough to pay back their advances with a little bit of profit.

Keyloggers? And they can get ahold of your email and change your password too. Oops.

If your system is that badly compromised, you have bigger problems than your Steam account.
Besides, remove keylogger, change email password, change steam password.

You misunderstand. I'm saying if a key is banned permenantly, then I can sell the game on ebay and the key won't work for the person that buys it.

Same applies for any game that has online authentication.

This is problem really with DRM and banning accounts and such. Because if someone pirates a game you are assuming firstly that they *won't buy the game* and that they will *never buy another game from you* because you're assuming that if someone copies a game that they are a sociopath and steal everything all the time. Obviously this is not true. People pirate and buy all the time, probably 90% of people fall into this catagory. What ever happened to 'the customer is always right'.

The other problem is assuming that everyone can afford if or would buy it if can't pirate it. Every pirated copy doesn't represent a lost sale because some people simply can't afford it. So stringent copy protection may have virtually no effect whatsoever on sales of a game. But it might mean that little 14 year old Jimmy that can't afford the game is now permenantly pissed off at valve.

That's Jimmy's problem.

 

[cabe]

obviously valve isnt disabling the accounts to prevent piracy, however. the duplicate CD key check prevented THAT. (i mean, the 'bad' cd key never actually worked in the first place) so why did they disable the accounts? my guess is to teach people a lesson. was it legal? yep. was it really necessary? well.. that's up to you...

 

[^Ben]

It did actually work.

There wasa sequence of events that you had to-do.

 

[cabe]

i read the instructions, and it *looked* like you run the game without connecting to steam. so, if you run the game without connecting to steam, i guess the ban really doesnt affect those people who sucessfully used the key, does it...

 

[coleco]

That's Jimmy's problem.

True. I totally agree with that. *but*

We're still forgetting about situations in a household where for instance mulitple people use a single computer. Say I bought a number of valve games in the past. Now little Jimmy wanders in and installs halflife2 with an invalid cd key. All my other valve games no longer work. I guess "That's my problem."

cabe brought up a great point that banning accounts is totally pointless because no one can pirate the game anyway. In that case banning accounts is purely to 'punish the immoral'. Valve claiming anything at all that they decide do as "my problem" doesn't sound very moral to me. Perhaps if I find a way to pirate valve games with out getting caught "That's their problem"

Bear in mind I'm not defending piracy I'm arguing against DRM because it walks all over privacy and fair use. Every fifth or so time I run Halflife 2 steam says "verifying game files" for about five minute. I'd really like to know what they are doing. Monitoring my brosing habits or something?


Also by the way increasing complexity on a system reduces performance and endangers secruity. Steam takes up 20 megs on my system. This is annoying. You say, "oh well, that's my problem". *Every program* these days want to cluter your systray with useless gay programs. Is every game company going to do this now? And all these little tray progs seem to take up 20 megs a piece. Steam also leaves an open port, btw, which means it's recieving connections. Let's hope that no one figure out how to hack Steam. But I suppose if they do, "that's my problem"

 

[fantasiser]

I dont agree with banning accounts even if the pirated game in question has subsequently been BOUGHT. If the person bought the game, dont disable them, simple as that. If they knew the bad cd keys why didnt they just update steam so that it would no longer accept the fake ones and wait for people to buy the game and key in a real one?

 

[Dirty_Harry]

You deserve to be banned because you were too stupid to first start up a new "non-hacking" account before using your legit purchased key.

You are out the money solely because of your own stupidity, and now want to blame it on Valve.

God punishes stupidity, now deal with it. Perhaps this $60 lesson on the dangers of stupidity will help you in the rest of your life, in which case it is a worthwhile investment. (I'm not holding my breath, however.)

 

[cabe]

You deserve to be banned because you were too stupid ... You are out the money solely because of your own stupidity ... God punishes stupidity, now deal with it.

this is a perfect example of how ethics dont work, which is what we're discussing here.

 

[illiterati]

F.ck the ethics debate, f.ck little Jimmy and f.ck the need to "road test" machines on pirate copies. I pirate crap all the time, for that very reason -- it's crap which I'd never pay for but it's available so I take it because I can.

That thought, however, never occurred to me with HL2. Not only did I buy my own copy ASAP, without ever checking for bugs or even if the game's any good, I also bought hundreds of dollars worth of hardware to make sure it *would* run good. And I'm not wealthy in the least. As a matter of fact, I must forgo purchasing books and/or movies for a notable length of time to afford all the things I specifically bought for HL2. I just have that much admiration for Valve and the HL series. If anyone in this industry is worth my money, they are.

That's not to say Valve are beyond mistakes. I think the Steam registration requirement for playing the solo campaign is an idea so immensely and pointlessly stupid, had any game other than HL2 been tied to it, the weight of bad press would've brought down the entire development house in question, Ion Storm style. But you are the only one to blame for using an illegal key to register online. You're gonna hold it against Valve for not giving your stupid ass enough credit to check whether you ended up buying the game? Get the f.ck outta here. To paraphrase a previous poster, a fool and his money are soon parted. Go and sin no more, d!ckwad.

 

[cabe]

F.ck the ethics debate ... To paraphrase a previous poster, a fool and his money are soon parted.

this thread is not titled "the facts of life," but rather "a moral/ethical question." so, no, don't "f.ck" the ethics...

You're gonna hold it against Valve for not giving your stupid ass enough credit to check whether you ended up buying the game?

absolutly!

and if it makes you feel any better....

well, i've already exchanged my game, so i'm not trying to get valve to give me back my copy of HL2. i knew that posting on a forum wasn't going to help me get the game back in the first place, either.

i am just looking for some other peoples' opinions, because i've got some free time and felt like discussing it. it's been a pretty enjoyably interesting debate thus far!

i'm happily enjoying my HL2. :smoking:

like i said, just looking for others' opinions.

 

[DoctorGordon3]

well, if it makes you feel any better....

i'm happily enjoying my HL2. :smoking:

like i said, just looking for others' opinions.

You exchanged your game? So...someone else after they buy the game is gonna find that they have a banned cd key? ...How thoughtful

 

[cabe]

being that the game was opened and also that i told the shop the CD key doesn't work, i don't think it's going to be getting reshelved....

 

[TEDR]

they send it back to the supplier so valve will get the game back!! haha

 

[willwittey]

Ok...

Ok, How I see it Cabe... Even though you did attempt to use an invalid CD Key to play, Valve has a responcibility to deal with that offence in any standing they choose, but it should be in a Timely Manor. In my eyes, Valve stole back there product from you... Look at the losses and say if its really due Justice...

Valve Recieved:: $59.99 + Account containing around an Additional $40.00 of content = $99.99

Your acts:: Attempting to use an invalid CD Key on a piece of software.

Valve basically stole back the product you purchased legitly... For anyone who says "an eye for an eye", look at the Justice system of America. It is **ILLEGAL** to bring up previous offences / violations in court, that simple... We are not arguing that what Cabe attempted to do is wrong, he admit it was... we are arguing the fact that Valve stole a Video Game from a Client, without any intention of reimbersment or any prior notification. Valve has a moral obligation to act in your favor in this case, so it does not matter if he tried to use an invalid CD-Key or not.

Im with you on this one Cabe. Its morally wrong for Valve in this case, and how I see it - the ball is in their court.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Read the user agreement. It probably says plainly that Valve can disable the steam accounts of anyone who violates the terms there.
Cabe took a risk by expecting them not to enforce the rules that he should have read. If he had understood the thing it tells him to read and understand, he wouldn't have fouled up.

Ethically, there is only one important point: ignorance of the law is never a valid defense.
Cabe was ignorant (willingly or otherwise) of his contractural obligation, and his ignorance of such caused him to voluntarilly give Valve 50 bucks.

Everyone here seems to like analogies, so here's the one that most validly applies:

There's a gas pump. A huge sign above that gas pump says "If you are caught stealing gas, you will be banned from using gas forever."

Cabe stole some gas. Then he bought a car.

A few minutes later, the police found the stolen gas and confiscated it.
And now he's whining that his car is useless because he can't use gas.

The moral of the story?
Don't buy a game after signing a contract saying you can never play it.