a question to you folk about the iraqi war!?

[jverne]

I want you to quickly summarize the consequences the war will bring to your PERSONAL life!!!

-post short answers in rows
-the consequences must not exceed 10 years from now!
-stay away from generalistic answers (eg. it will bring prosperity to the US, and alike)


"example:

1.the current gas prices wont allow me to visit my GF...or something
2.xxxxxxxxxxx
3.xxxxxxxxxxxxx"

i especialy want to hear the answers of the most eager supporters and opposers!

i'm guessing it won't make any difference whatsoever!


and another point i'm trying to expose is that noone here is a true supporter or a true opposer...i don't see anyone protesting publicaly or going to war to support it...you just like to spend some time arguing on this forums! whic isn't neccessarily a bad thing...i find it stupid to demand someone to go to war...or calling someone a wuss for not!

eventualy you'll realize that it's the best not to give a shit about it! you'll just have to adapt to new circumstances as the rest of us!

people who don't give a shit:

http://www.forbes.com/2002/02/28/billionaires.html
http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists...ListType=Person&uniqueId=C0R3&datatype=Person
http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists...ListType=Person&uniqueId=0RD0&datatype=Person
http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html


why we don't see any famous people in iraq? yes, thats right...they don't give a damn!

 

[qckbeam]

i especialy want to hear the answers of the most eager supporters and opposers!

I have multiple reasons for opposing the war which have nothing to do with my personal life. This may shock you, but you can take a stand on an issue even if the outcome won't affect your day-to-day life. However, I do have family serving in the military today (albeit not in Iraq), and some close friends of the family have sons, people my own age who I know and like, serving in Iraq right now. So I have a personal stake in the war, yes.

i'm guessing it won't make any difference whatsoever!

What is that supposed to mean?

and another point i'm trying to expose is that noone here is a true supporter or a true opposer...i don't see anyone protesting publicaly or going to war to support it...you just like to spend some time arguing on this forums!

Nice work "exposing" that point of yours. Perhaps you "don't see anyone protesting publicaly or going to war to support it" because you, oh, I don't know, have no idea who any of us are? Jumping to wild conclusions like that makes you look stupid. Perhaps some of us have lives outside our computers. I know one member, Asus, worked for the Kerry campaign, and I personally have done things outside of this forum to voice my opinion. Anyways, you don't have to join a public protest to be a "true supporter" or a "true opposer". It's called voting. Many people spoke with their ballot last November.

eventualy you'll realize that it's the best not to give a shit about it! you'll just have to adapt to new circumstances as the rest of us!

Not giving a shit is called being apathetic. Apathy is the worst thing a human can strive for. Just shrugging your shoulders at the world and its problems is a true waste of life. Might as well jump off a building and save us all some trouble. You won't be contributing to humanity anyways so it doesn't matter.

why we don't see any famous people in iraq? yes, thats right...they don't give a damn!

Boy, you sure do know a lot about the lives of others don't you?

 

[PickledGecko]

Not giving a shit is called being apathetic. Apathy is the worst thing a human can strive for. Just shrugging your shoulders at the world and its problems is a true waste of life. Might as well jump off a building and save us all some trouble. You won't be contributing to humanity anyways so it doesn't matter.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

(No i'm not comparing GW to Hitler or the US to the NAZIs!)

 

[Stigmata]

and another point i'm trying to expose is that noone here is a true supporter or a true opposer...i don't see anyone protesting publicaly or going to war to support it...you just like to spend some time arguing on this forums! whic isn't neccessarily a bad thing...i find it stupid to demand someone to go to war...or calling someone a wuss for not!

Ahh, ignorance. Without you, there would be no Politics sub-forum.

 

[jverne]

I have multiple reasons for opposing the war which have nothing to do with my personal life. This may shock you, but you can take a stand on an issue even if the outcome won't affect your day-to-day life. However, I do have family serving in the military today (albeit not in Iraq), and some close friends of the family have sons, people my own age who I know and like, serving in Iraq right now. So I have a personal stake in the war, yes.




What is that supposed to mean?



Nice work "exposing" that point of yours. Perhaps you "don't see anyone protesting publicaly or going to war to support it" because you, oh, I don't know, have no idea who any of us are? Jumping to wild conclusions like that makes you look stupid. Perhaps some of us have lives outside our computers. I know one member, Asus, worked for the Kerry campaign, and I personally have done things outside of this forum to voice my opinion. Anyways, you don't have to join a public protest to be a "true supporter" or a "true opposer". It's called voting. Many people spoke with their ballot last November.



Not giving a shit is called being apathetic. Apathy is the worst thing a human can strive for. Just shrugging your shoulders at the world and its problems is a true waste of life. Might as well jump off a building and save us all some trouble. You won't be contributing to humanity anyways so it doesn't matter.





Boy, you sure do know a lot about the lives of others don't you?

why the hell did they join the army?? and if you really oppose the war why would you defend them and feel sorry for them...it's their own personal wish to go?! the best thing you could do is to wish them luck...if my brother would want to go to war i would call him a moron...but fortunately he isn't that stupid!

i'm trying to say that it won't change your day to day life!...ok, maybe if your father was in the millitary and would get shot...then it would be catastrophic...but if you know that he is serving...atleast part of you should be prepared for the worst...and if you do care for him that much why did you let him go in the first place?...i'm sure there are other jobs in the US...or maybe your father doesn't give a shit about his family?

didn't mean to offend you or something it was just an example


Tell me what did you do to help your agenda? i'm glad that asus assisted the kerry campaign...so why is bush up there? and yeah...if you belive that "democracy" that will help you then your mistaking...if you don't help yourself noone will!.......remember......help yourself and god will help you!..........


i'm not aphatic...i just don't care that much for far away problems...but that doesnt mean i'm not expecting them!

example....in five years time the gas would be so expensive only the rich could buy it....so you have the option to whine about it, like most of you do it now...or you're going to do something about...???!!

No i don't im just guessing...but i know that what you have done didn't really change anything...people are more alike than you think!!

 

[jverne]

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

(No i'm not comparing GW to Hitler or the US to the NAZIs!)

hey man if you would stick up with the communist you would get carried away like the rest...at least you managed to survive the most...and that what really counts!! :angel:

 

[The Monkey]

What do you got against communists?

 

[jverne]

What do you got against communists?

nothing...it was just first on the list!

 

[CptStern]

why the hell did they join the army?? and if you really oppose the war why would you defend them and feel sorry for them...it's their own personal wish to go?! the best thing you could do is to wish them luck...if my brother would want to go to war i would call him a moron...but fortunately he isn't that stupid!

i'm trying to say that it won't change your day to day life!...ok, maybe if your father was in the millitary and would get shot...then it would be catastrophic...but if you know that he is serving...atleast part of you should be prepared for the worst...and if you do care for him that much why did you let him go in the first place?...i'm sure there are other jobs in the US...or maybe your father doesn't give a shit about his family?

didn't mean to offend you or something it was just an example


Tell me what did you do to help your agenda? i'm glad that asus assisted the kerry campaign...so why is bush up there? and yeah...if you belive that "democracy" that will help you then your mistaking...if you don't help yourself noone will!.......remember......help yourself and god will help you!..........


i'm not aphatic...i just don't care that much for far away problems...but that doesnt mean i'm not expecting them!

example....in five years time the gas would be so expensive only the rich could buy it....so you have the option to whine about it, like most of you do it now...or you're going to do something about...???!!

No i don't im just guessing...but i know that what you have done didn't really change anything...people are more alike than you think!!

you make it sound like changing the way society thinks is easy. The simplest example would be the re-election of GW Bush ...I mean come on! they knew bush had sent america to war on false pretenses but they didnt care ...they couldnt care because voting for the other guy would be an admission that they were wrong ...horribly wrong

Change doesnt come about overnight (not in social movements) but rather after a long battle ..by the time the mainstream is aware of an issue there are literally thousands of people who've been working at it for years. It all comes down to commitment ..we all have the same opportunities, the same resources, the same access to information ..yet people can only do so much or only wiling to do so much ..witness the continued support of the iraqi war by some of our members. Even after all this time they still cling to their ideology through sheer will alone despite the overwhelming facts ..they've consiously chosen to selectively take in information that is supportive of their beliefs, which to an extent we all do, but this goes beyond bias, this is deliberate masking of the truth ..a truth I'm convinced they're aware of

 

[Tr0n]

Most of america is pretty much aware now considering that latest rating approval vote thingy.

 

[Korgoth]

* the uncertain economy cost my father a good paying job becuase the company had to make cuts because buisness slowed.

*Two of my best friends have been and still are in harms way. One in Iraq, and one in kuwait/saudi arabia. My friend in Iraq was hit by a car, and involved in many fire fights, hes changed a lot. (not for the better)

*Where I work they've been forced to lay off several workers, some of which were good friends of mine.

*I intended to have my debts paid and be in school by next semester, however inflation and rising gas prices have prevented that from happening.

Theres a few. And yes the economy and the war are related. Anyone who says one doesn't affect the other is a fool.

 

[Tr0n]

Many of the members here don't pay taxes yet (neither do I) so I don't think they really understand the effects of the war and economy. (Neither do I)

 

[Glirk Dient]

I'm just interested to see if anyone can pull up some links to prove that the rising gas prices isn't due to the worlds largest country by population now using cars and requiring a lot of oil themselves. Or the fact that our oil reserves are running out. Also..how is the war directly ruining our economy?

Also...jverne your an idiot. If you think everyone joins the army because they want to go to war then you are wrong. Hardly anybody wants to go to war. When they sign the papers they realize it is a possibility. Many people join because of the vast amount of benefits, to serve their country, for college, to get technical skill training and experience. There are many reasons. Also, most jobs in the military are non combat, so if they really really don't want to go to war then they can do something, like say, be a recruiter and they are still serving and have no chance of going to war. Yes it was their decision to fight for their country, no it wasn't their decision to go to war with Iraq. The quicker we bring our soldiers back, the better.

 

[CptStern]

so you're saying that now that china is using cars (for the first time in history according to you) they're causing the gas prices to go up? ..........has nothing to do with the fact that thousands of military vehicles are being used on a daily basis? has nothing to do with the fact that the worlds second largest producing oil fields is currently working on far less than half capacity ...it has nothing to do with the fact that the people in power also have a huge stake in the oil industry and that high prices means more bling bling in their pockets ........yup I can see how this is all the fault of the chinese ............. :upstare:

 

[seinfeldrules]

so you're saying that now that china is using cars (for the first time in history according to you) they're causing the gas prices to go up?

You do realize how many people live in China. Correct?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Jesus christ, sit in Hong Kong and scream in a corny North Korean accent, "FOR JIM KUNG IHULL!!" ... see how many of those asian beefs cream your ass then.

What are you guys kidding? I think skyrocketing prices are involved specifically with China, and our damn money-mongering corperations taking our jobs over there.

 

[CptStern]

You do realize how many people live in China. Correct?

yet the US, a country that has 30% of the population of china, uses almost double the amount of Oil ...ya I can see how china is a big problem ...Japan with a population that is 1/10th that of china consumes more oil

source

in case you're wondering the US consumes 7.7 million b/d

 

[Korgoth]

You do realize how many people live in China. Correct?

You do realize how many of those people also drove a motor vehicle prior to this month correct?

 

[seinfeldrules]

yet the US, a country that has 30% of the population of china, uses almost double the amount of Oil ...ya I can see how china is a big problem ...Japan with a population that is 1/10th that of china consumes more oil

That 50% (the majority at least) just started in what, the last 5 years or so? And that number is sharply on the rise. Thats a LOT of new people over a short amount of time. The more capitalism they inject into the country will create more opportunities for people to drive.

Furthermore, those are 2001 est. you are using. I would wager that all countries usage has risen, but China's more quickly then the rest.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Which is a true observation -- their economic standards are almost matching BUSH'S, which, for a country that big means we will naturally be overtaken in a few short years time.

 

[Korgoth]

Want to fix that problem? Boycott walmart, shop "made in America", stop driving gas hogging trucks/suvs unless absolutely needed, protest manufacturing/material goods jobs and outsourcing in general, AND... heres the clencher,

ELECT SOME ONE WHO GIVES A ****

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ Amen. We need some good Philosphers of Economy to do something ... Philosophical like to prevent our economy from falling like Nostrodamus Prophecy at a Kindergarten Welcoming Speech.

 

[CptStern]

That 50% (the majority at least) just started in what, the last 5 years or so? And that number is sharply on the rise. Thats a LOT of new people over a short amount of time. The more capitalism they inject into the country will create more opportunities for people to drive.

Furthermore, those are 2001 est. you are using. I would wager that all countries usage has risen, but China's more quickly then the rest.

yet you ignore the obvious fact that your country spends more than double than anyone else

and no the nationmaster source is current ..the US source is from jan 2005 ...where did you get the 2001 figure?


btw from their FAQ:

"We always like to use the most up-to-date information. Often the statistic you see here is the newest you'll find anywhere."

 

[seinfeldrules]

Just some figures to throw out there from the Time magazine (June 27, 2005)

China:
1996- 10 million cars
2004- 25 million cars

1995- 2.7 million barrels/day
2005- 6 million barrels/ day

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Personally...the war has had no effect on me as of yet. The economic ramifications are in a lag currently, IMO. We're starting to feel it at the pump, and it's going to go further with other good as these severe deficits cause greater inflation. It's all lagged though....how soon we'll feel it depends on the FED.

I'll tell you what really burns my ass though. The feeling that whenever we leave Iraq...that whole country is going to go right back to hell in a handbasket. It's almost like punishment for the mistake we made.


Sorry Stern, I'm with Seinfeld on this one....at least if he's going where I think he's going. China's economy is beginning to grow rapidly in all areas. I don't think this particular rise at the pump is the result of China alone, but it's a certainty that China will become a bigger factor in the near future. When demand rises not as a result of falling prices and supply remains the same, prices go up. I don't think enough supply can be tapped to compensate and keep those prices down. It's a complete shift of the demand curve and it's happening now. I firmly believe fuel is one place we're going to get hammered. As far as consumption goods as a whole, it's like 1/6th of the world population suddenly woke up in many ways. Looking into investment and crowding out becomes a terrible reality for many other company's that are in the market for funding. I'm glad to see the people in China will be enjoying many of the same things we do, but the economic reality is staggering. Obviously, this isn't an overnight type of thing, but long-term ramifications are a certainty.

 

[seinfeldrules]

and no the nationmaster source is current ..the US source is from jan 2005 ...where did you get the 2001 figure?

You're first source is using 2001 estimates. Read it.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/ene_oil_con&int=-1

 

[seinfeldrules]

I'm glad to see the people in China will be enjoying many of the same things we do, but the economic reality is staggering.

Exactly my take on the issue. Its not like anyone is accusing China of ****ing us over on purpose by providing automoblies.

 

[CptStern]

Just some figures to throw out there from the Time magazine (June 27, 2005)

China:
1996- 10 million cars
2004- 25 million cars

1995- 2.7 million barrels/day
2005- 6 million barrels/ day

not according to this:

from 2002


United States: 19.993 b/d
Japan: 5.423 b/d
China: 4.854 b/d


this one here from 2004 puts the top three at:

United States 20.5 b/d
China 6.5 b/d
Japan 5.4 b/d


this one here from 2001 says the same as the first one:


United States 19,650,000
Japan 5,290,000
China 4,975,000



as you can see china has indeed increased it's oil consumption ....but according to all these graphs china is not the problem here


Lt.Drebin: I never claimed that china wasnt increasing it's oil consumption ...I was calling into question the assertation that China is responsible for the high gas prices as one of our members suggested

 

[seinfeldrules]

Sorry stern, I'll take a major news source like Time over three (well two at least) random ass websites any day of the week. As would most people.

Furthermore, the US has been a powerhouse in oil consumption for quite some time. It is to be expected. China is the wildcard, I dont think many people planned on the impact they would have. My figures speak for themselves.

I also find it absolutely shocking that your stance is against America yet again.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Furthermore, the US has been a powerhouse in oil consumption for quite some time. It is to be expected. China is the wildcard, I dont think many people planned on the impact they would have. My figures speak for themselves.

I think China and India combined are squashing most economic models as well as most world consumption estimates, in ALL areas. There's no question.

Lt.Drebin: I never claimed that china wasnt increasing it's oil consumption ...I was calling into question the assertation that China is responsible for the high gas prices as one of our members suggested

I was speaking more of a long-term issue and didn't mean to imply that that is what you were claiming. Saying that China is responsible for the immediate fuel issue is the result of tunnel-vision and I don't even think Seinfeld was implying that.....maybe I'm wrong. Anywho, I wasn't insulting your intelligence.

 

[CptStern]

Sorry stern, I'll take a major news source like Time over three (well two at least) random ass websites any day of the week. As would most people.

Furthermore, the US has been a powerhouse in oil consumption for quite some time. It is to be expected. China is the wildcard, I dont think many people planned on the impact they would have. My figures speak for themselves.

I also find it absolutely shocking that your stance is against America yet again.

I guess the link from the CIA source book isnt good enough for you? and why would you think my stance is against america in this particular issue? ..Glirk said this:

"I'm just interested to see if anyone can pull up some links to prove that the rising gas prices isn't due to the worlds largest country by population now using cars and requiring a lot of oil themselves"

I was just answering his question


Lt.Drebin: no offense was taken

 

[Kebean PFC]

Interesting....

The demand curve is changing becuase America is outsourcing everything. The unfortunate part is then China and Taiwan and MExico will essentially own us. If we keep going the way we are going, America will collapse and as a effect of that, so will democracy everywhere.

I see little chance of this happening in our lifetimes, but it may happen to our grandchildren.

 

[SAJ]

Stern, Im amazed that you and seinfeld have made an arguement out of this issue, if you both called a coin toss Im sure we would see three pages of "heads!"......."no, tails!".
Theres no doubt that rising chinese demand has been a contributing factor in the price of oil and I havent read anything here that suggests that, by making that statement , any form of blame is being suggested, its just economics.
Global demand for oil has been rising for some time and that is placing pressure on oil production infrastructure that is geared towards small changes in supply and demand.

On the other hand ,you both might want to look up "hubberts peak", and also look at what date oil discovery (global) peaked.
Its pretty disturbing stuff.

 

[Tr0n]

Interesting....

The demand curve is changing becuase America is outsourcing everything. The unfortunate part is then China and Taiwan and MExico will essentially own us. If we keep going the way we are going, America will collapse and as a effect of that, so will democracy everywhere.

I see little chance of this happening in our lifetimes, but it may happen to our grandchildren.

Didn't bliink talk about this book that said "democracies only last 200-300 years"? Now I'm starting to think that guy was right.

 

[CptStern]

Stern, Im amazed that you and seinfeld have made an arguement out of this issue, if you both called a coin toss Im sure we would see three pages of "heads!"......."no, tails!".
Theres no doubt that rising chinese demand has been a contributing factor in the price of oil and I havent read anything here that suggests that, by making that statement , any form of blame is being suggested, its just economics.
Global demand for oil has been rising for some time and that is placing pressure on oil production infrastructure that is geared towards small changes in supply and demand.

On the other hand ,you both might want to look up "hubberts peak", and also look at what date oil discovery (global) peaked.
Its pretty disturbing stuff.

I was legitimately answering a question ..seinfeld challenged what I posted ...why I supposed to just let it go? so it all boils down to ..."he started it first"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

No it does'nt, it all boils down to, "Modern Societies become lazy, and dont want to walk or use bikes. So then the car was the next best thing. BLING! Oil crisis."

 

[jverne]

^ Amen. We need some good Philosphers of Economy to do something ... Philosophical like to prevent our economy from falling like Nostrodamus Prophecy at a Kindergarten Welcoming Speech.

you are kidding right!?



the thing is that if the gas prices are rising you have to follow them...not lag behind and nag! you have to adapt...thats the very essence of evolution...if you're stuck in an ideology you'll get stuck quite soon!
people in power don't like what is happening...but they try to make the changes to benefit them...not sit on their ass and complain...those that do have and will fall! personaly i'd rather have dinner on a table and be a communist (for instance) than to starve to death by being a democrat!

it's a bad example because there are two ideologies mentioned...the best job for someone would be an weapons developer....people will always fight due to diffrent ideologys and they'll need you to provide the weapons...that's why you'll survive because your are needed....altough i know it's hard to stay neutral!

 

[seinfeldrules]

I guess the link from the CIA source book isnt good enough for you? and why would you think my stance is against america in this particular issue? ..Glirk said this:

Because everyone else seems to believe that China is playing a role in the increasing oil prices. You refuse to believe that, all while blaming America. Maybe we have a misinterpretation here. Are you saying that China isnt playing a role (possibly major) in these prices?

 

[Solaris]

What percentage of the worlds energy does America use up again?

 

[CptStern]

Because everyone else seems to believe that China is playing a role in the increasing oil prices. You refuse to believe that, all while blaming America. Maybe we have a misinterpretation here. Are you saying that China isnt playing a role (possibly major) in these prices?

every country is to blame for the rise in prices ..they've all increased their consumption ...but that still doesnt mean that china is the sole reason for today's gas prices ...which Glirk's post seemed to imply