A Thread For UK Elections 2005

Yes, at the time I'm sure IDS was the latest example of military stealth testing gone bad. It wasn't his fault they hit him with a Meek-and-Harmless 3000 Covert Beam.

Laivasse said:
Cynicism has crept in in a big way since Iraq. Hardly anyone looks at politics ideologically any more. Everyone's just trying to size up the biggest bastard and keep them out.
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My own political stance aside, that's definitely a fair and accurate summary of the state of our electoral populace. More's the pity.
 
BaconIsGood4You said:
Just to jump in here, having any kind of royalty is wrong (not morally). For one, the British royalty and all its functions are supported by tax payer dollars (euros whatever). Tradition should not override equality. Also, for the state to recognize someone as a noblemen (King, Prince, Duke, etc.) by birth implies they are superior. I, however, don't see anything wrong with being Knighted, since it is a position recognized by the state for service.
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To be honest, I think this view is a little naive. There is no equality in society. People get born to swish positions in life all the time, or they land a big money position due to a handy company contact. Society is full of injustices and shortcuts, and pricks who hold positions that they don't deserve. Life is not a meritocracy. I can cope with the idea of having a rich woman wearing crown and sitting on a throne, if it means a few extra tourists and a continued link to the past. Besides, she has no effective power.

(anyway this monarchy thing is a bit OT) back to politics....!
 
Did anyone listen to PM's Questions today?

It was a bit of a charade. And I laughed a bit.

You can listen to it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/fivelive/aod.shtml?fivelive/pmqs

And I agree with people that Tories are just attacking what Labour has done. They should be concentrating more on what they will do. Although I don't think that Howard is the demon (or Vampire) peopel make him out to be.
 
vote lib dem and throw your vote away *laughs maniacilly*
 
Laivasse said:
People vote for Labour because they think they are the same party they were 20 years ago. For Ethnic minorities Labour has always been the traditional party to vote for, however nowadays they pass laws allowing 'terrorists' (ie. Moslems) to be locked up without trial and without evidence (or any that needs to be shown to anyone). They're about as conservative as you can get while holding a straight face nowadays.
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Yeah, because the Tories would repeal questionable anti-terror laws that've been brought in/kicked about thus far.
If anything, the Tories would be far worse.

Laivasse said:
People are considering giving their vote to the Conservatives this time around because they know the Lib Dems have no hope (that's me :p ).
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A lot of people may be voting Tory because they're unsure about Labour and going further left doesn't work for them. But people desperately need to realise that the Tories are much further right than they think. Or maybe that works for those voters...

Laivasse said:
The Lib Dems have no hope because traditionally, noone votes for them. I'll give them a chance some day when I could stomach the prospect of the ruling govt staying in power. Not this election, then.
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It's really sad; people don't see the Lib Dems as a viable option because traditionally they haven't been, so they won't be so much this time, and the whole cycle repeats itself and so it's basically Labour or Tory.
Although it speaks volumes about the Tories uncertainty about the LibDems that they keep urging people not to vote for them and "waste their vote" - clutching at straws if you ask me.


jimbo118 said:
vote lib dem and throw your vote away *laughs maniacilly*
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It's NOT a wasted vote. Just 'cause you pretty much know they won't get in, it hasn't been "wasted". It sends a message to the other parties to smarten up their act. Especially as the LibDems are increasingly seeming a more viable third alternative.
 
Feath said:
Did anyone listen to PM's Questions today?

It was a bit of a charade. And I laughed a bit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/fivelive/aod.shtml?fivelive/pmqs

And I agree with people that Tories are just attacking what Labour has done. They should be concentrating more on what they will do. Although I don't think that Howard is the demon (or Vampire) peopel make him out to be.
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lol i actually watch this quite a bit after getting up at 11(i love college) but 1 thing that gets me is there always seems to be a 'question' from a labour party mp that just gives tony blair a chance to bang on about how gr8 they are,that annoys me
 
Laivasse said:
I might be giving a completely skewed view (anybody feel free to step in if I am, I'm not exactly a veteran of politics), but I would definitely say people are not voting completely on issues. I know I'm not.

Some big motivating factors this time around would be, say, lack of trust in Tony Blair, the past record of the conservative party, the Lib Dems chance of success, and so forth. Cynicism has crept in in a big way since Iraq. Hardly anyone looks at politics ideologically any more. Everyone's just trying to size up the biggest bastard and keep them out.
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Absolutely - there's a big issue with trust at the moment. Oh well; we'll see. After what they've done I would like nothing better than for Labour to go down, but considering the alternative, I know where my vote's going.
 
He is Thatcher's demonic aide! Hiss! Hiss!

'Tis just as unfair to label him a vamp as it is to label Blair a gurning idiot, mind. I just wish they'd stop sniping at each other, it makes them both look like incompetent hypocrites.

...wait. They are.
 
Laivasse said:
I'd just add that I think it's so bizarre that the Labour party see Blair as anything other than a liability. Is there anyone left in the country who still trusts that forced earnestness?
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i see your view,i agree with a former labour mp who was speaking on newsnight about a week or 2 ago who said that he hopes labour wins but that they are pushed close so tony blair will get off his power trip and be replaced..............but whatever its not like i can vote
 
el Chi said:
It's NOT a wasted vote. Just 'cause you pretty much know they won't get in, it hasn't been "wasted". It sends a message to the other parties to smarten up their act. Especially as the LibDems are increasingly seeming a more viable third alternative.
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i know,i was only joking,hence my other post about labour being re-elected but pushed close so they haveto take on the other voters views

another thing thats worrying,again i cant vote,is that labour and tories both are channeling the supposed 'risks' of voting for the other and to peoples fears,just look at what blair said today at pmqs about a vote for the tories will cost you your college place,your job,your health service etc,its almost like bush and his fear campaign although that was more directed at terrorism
 
jimbo118 said:
another thing thats worrying,again i cant vote,is that labour and tories both are channeling the supposed 'risks' of voting for the other and to peoples fears,just look at what blair said today at pmqs about a vote for the tories will cost you your college place,your job,your health service etc,its almost like bush and his fear campaign although that was more directed at terrorism
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I fully agree with you there...if there's any more of a shift towards US-style electioneering techniques (on both sides) I'll vomit. When politicians try to scare people into voting for them, by telling them how the other parties will burgle their house and eat their babies, it makes me so angry I have to set things alight. Because I know that a lot of people are stupid and will fall for it.
 
jimbo118 said:
i know,i was only joking,hence my other post about labour being re-elected but pushed close so they haveto take on the other voters views
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Phew! Just checking...
 
I'm (so far) voting Tory, based soley on their policies against labours and the lib dems.

It's not all about spending more money to make things like the NHS work el Chi, its the money going to the right places. The NHS under labour has more managers than beds and these managers earn in excess of the average salary... and they cure noone. Instead they have to meet Labours targets by forcing Doctors to treat patients faster (and not wash hands speading mrsa as a consequence).

Labour seems to want more of the same in the next 4 years, when they got into power, they said Education Education Education... what did they do? Nothing, we have a crisis, we've had to draft teachers in from old colonial countries to cope... class sizes are larger if not the same size as before and therefore teaching standards and capabilities are sent down.

In 2001 labour said, Health Health Health.... what happened? More money into the NHS going to these managers, targets set decreasing the quality of care people recieve in hospital and what could be a pandemic spread of MRSA, of which labour has done nothing to stop. The extra money shouldnt be going to managers, it should be going to cleaners and nurses to do there jobs properly... instead of al the nurses going into agencies for higher pay and cleaners just not bothering.

This year they say, Economy Economy Economy... which they only kept going after a pretty damn good economy after the previous conservative leadership.

For me the Lib Dems just arent an option, its not that they havent been in power, its there polcies i personally dont agree with... sure, make University Free! Give the Elderly free pensions! ... but to pay for this, they increase congestion charging... go into the EU constitution asap... and go head first into the Euro, which is a failing economy that'll drag us down.

Those are my main reasons, the things concerning me... Anti-social behaviour, yobs, student finance, education, health... arent being challenged enough by any other party sufficiently in my view. Labour have got it wrong so far, I want a change... but im not a liberal person at heart, so as appealing as the Lib Dems are, i fundamentally cannot vote for them. As much as I want my younger friends not to have to pay student tuition... I also dont want to intergrate too far into Europe and I dont want them spending the Euro. I dont want a 50% tax rate crippiling new business and firms being in Britain and forcing them offshore.

Im rambling, but i feel with the state of this thread that im a lost voice amongst Labour and lib Dem fans, feel free to win over my vote... if you can, I want the best for this country as much as anyone else.
 
The NHS under labour has more managers than beds and these managers earn in excess of the average salary... and they cure noone. Instead they have to meet Labours targets by forcing Doctors to treat patients faster (and not wash hands speading mrsa as a consequence).
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Id hope that a hospital administrator would earn in excess of the average salary. I imagine that paying him or her minimum wage might not attract the sort of people that would be good for hospitals.
 
I have a problem with some of the lib dem policies that stops me voting for them,
"would start phased withdrawal of troops with year-end deadline"
"50% tax rate on earnings over £100,000 a year"
" Would work towards the right conditions for joining the euro"
"extend vote to 16 year-olds"

But overall they have a good setup, they'll get allot of votes.
 
The way I see it you've got a typical slimy tory, Bush's lapdog or an unassuming scotsman. No prizes for guessing who's going to get my vote.

Besides being the lesser of three evils, the Lib Dems seem to throw less shit about the other parties than the others. I might be mad but I think political campaigning should concentrate more on what each party will do and less on what the other parties won't be doing.
 
oldagerocker said:
I have a problem with some of the lib dem policies that stops me voting for them,
"would start phased withdrawal of troops with year-end deadline"
"50% tax rate on earnings over £100,000 a year"
" Would work towards the right conditions for joining the euro"
"extend vote to 16 year-olds"

But overall they have a good setup, they'll get allot of votes.
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1. I don't entirely agree with this, and certainly not within a year.

2. I don't have so much of a problem with that. Perhaps 50% is a bit too high, but at least they're not claiming to be able to lower taxes whilst still keeping public services running, a la Conservatives.
I say "claiming" I mean "lying"

3. Join the Euro. Good Thing.

4. Hmmm... If a 16-year old is motivated to vote at all, there's every chance they're mature enough to make a semi-informed decision.
It's not as if there aren't 25-year olds making retarded voting choices anyway. Just look at anyone who votes for the BNP.
Most teens I know couldn't give a flying f*ck about voting, so whatever.

Whatever the Lib Dems failings, they have one extraordinarily fabulous saving grace:
They aren't the BNP; they aren't UKIP or Veritas; and most of all,
They aren't the Conservatives.

For that alone they deserve a good quantity of votes.
 
if those are the lib dems bad points.. then surely they have won already ... lol *crosses fingers*

joining the euro is good, I think the conservatives are patriotically blinded opposing this.

extra taxing on the rich is simply to try and cool the divide between poor and rich... its a sensible handycap, you still earn alot.. but because of that your expected to give more back, because you 'can'. fair enough.

troops withdrawal, sure... why the hell are they in there anyway...? because the US are... because we want a slice of the cake made of black gold..?... its certainly not because Iraq is a threat to the western world anymore.

plus arnt they taking more tax from the rich so they can introduce more readily available grants for students and apply it it other key areas of education and healthcare.. transport etc, I heard they want to abolish university fee's :).
 
clarky003 said:
troops withdrawal, sure... why the hell are they in there anyway...? because the US are... because we want a slice of the cake made of black gold..?... its certainly not because Iraq is a threat to the western world anymore.
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I didn't really agree with the war, but now we're there, we can't simply withdraw. It would be incredibly irresponsible and cause a lot of problems.
If you invade a country and f*ck it up, have the courtesy to stay and try and undo some of the damage.
 
true, aslong as there not going to do any more damage..im all for doing some clean up, but dont forget what politicians said in such confidence that put them there in the first place.
 
Basically your vote is down to whether you believe the Conservatives will do what they say... or if they are lying just to get back in power. But you can say that about the Labour party, wasn't it in either 97 or 01 they said they'd bring in Matrons?.... i swear i heard that on the news... yet they havn't.

Lib Dems removing troops from Iraq will **** that up, you really cant trust the Americans to get it right and i believe at the moment going into the Euro would be a very bad idea.
Im scared to vote Lib Dem, to sort the country out you need a good leader... not some bloke who isn't really quite sure and just wants to please everyone, they're never going to do that.

Labour could get in, but not with my vote.
 
Labour



Because the lib dems realistically are a wasted vote this time. Allthough next time round might be a different story

That leaves labour and the conservatives.



I am not risking letting the conservatives in the feck everything up once again. They have done enough dammage in their time in my opinion. :hmph:
 
clarky003 said:
if those are the lib dems bad points.. then surely they have won already ... lol *crosses fingers*

joining the euro is good, I think the conservatives are patriotically blinded opposing this.

extra taxing on the rich is simply to try and cool the divide between poor and rich... its a sensible handycap, you still earn alot.. but because of that your expected to give more back, because you 'can'. fair enough.

troops withdrawal, sure... why the hell are they in there anyway...? because the US are... because we want a slice of the cake made of black gold..?... its certainly not because Iraq is a threat to the western world anymore.

plus arnt they taking more tax from the rich so they can introduce more readily available grants for students and apply it it other key areas of education and healthcare.. transport etc, I heard they want to abolish university fee's :).
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I'd rather see British troops in Iraq decrease as the trained Iraqi army and police force numbers increase, not a forced withdrawal within 1 year, no matter what the condition Iraq is in at the time.


I am voting for Labour.

They are moving towards Europe and the Euro, but after a referendum, they have done great things with the British Economy and kept it growing. Also, Michael Howard just doesn't come across as a powerful leader, Tony Blair isn't as powerful as he used to be though. I am just hoping that Gordon Brown will step up and become Prime Minister, someone i think could do a great job.
 
marksmanHL2 :) said:
Because the lib dems realistically are a wasted vote this time. Allthough next time round might be a different story
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This is a UK General Election not a US one. You aren't just throwing your vote away by voting for another party. If you want to vote Lib Dem, then vote Lib Dem. Lib Dems (probably) won't win the election but that doesn't mean that you won't end up with a Lib Dem MP for your area. And that means you would have someone representing your views in Parliament.

I live (and I think I vote) in Edinburgh South. According to the 2001 results, Labour won but The Lib Dems came second. So if I voted for Labour just so the Tories don't win, it would be pointless, especially if I supported The Lib Dems.

By the way, if anyone doesn't get what I mean by saying "This is a UK election not a US one" then check out these two equivilant maps

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/
http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/projects/electionmap/

The US one is just different shades of red and blue, the UK one is more complicated, because there are three main parties.
 
Lib Dem isn't a wasted vote, they'll gain more seats this election... and the next they arethe opposition... and they have a real chance of getting in power. Ofcourse it's not wasted. Vote for the party you support, wether they are big or not.
 
I appreciate the above replies.


I'm a new voter and not a terribly knollegable one obviously.


Think i'll do some research soon. :)
 
oldagerocker said:
Basically your vote is down to whether you believe the Conservatives will do what they say... or if they are lying just to get back in power. But you can say that about the Labour party, wasn't it in either 97 or 01 they said they'd bring in Matrons?.... i swear i heard that on the news... yet they havn't.
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Whilst Labour might be tellin porkies to get into power - and truths are, I have no doubt, being stretched - at least I don't know for a cold, hard, recorded-on-tape fact that they're lying.
Which, just to remind everyone, is what the Tories are doing. Former (or at least he is after this revelation) MP Howard Flight - I believe he's good friends with Michael Howard, to boot - was caught on tape by a journalist as saying that their policies have been toned down or stretched to appeal to the voters. Once they get in power, they intend to change those to suit their own ends. It is worth noting that the journalist was undercover and he thought he was amongst friends.

When a party f*cks up that badly, you KNOW they're worth avoiding.

And don't even get me started on the "Are you thinking what we're thinking?" campaign.
Private Eye renamed it: "Are you sinking like we're sinking?" :)
 
I see your point Chi, its easy to say whats wrong with the country and make out like you'll do everything, instead of standing for you're real beliefs... which will come out eventually. Is that what you believe the Tories are doing?
 
Basically yes. I wouldn't trust Michael Howard as far as I can throw him. Not far at all.
You can't cut taxes and keep public spending acceptable in the way that the Tories claim they will. It's nonsense.
 
el Chi said:
Basically yes. I wouldn't trust Michael Howard as far as I can throw him. Not far at all.
You can't cut taxes and keep public spending acceptable in the way that the Tories claim they will. It's nonsense.
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Absolutely. It boggles the ****ing mind. 'We're going to cut taxes, reduce public spending, and still run the NHS better than labour'

Nope. Sorry Howard. Not buying it.

Did anyone see Kennedy with Frost this morning? I was listening to him, and he made an insane amount of sense. They were talking about cannabis reclassification, and he was saying something along the lines of taking the emotive politics out of the equation and setting up an independant group to process research and take the appropriate actions. He also comes across as a genuine bloke.
 
A genuine politician? Wow, that might just catch on.

The Tories are basically Labour, except with an even worse track record (if you could believe that) and laughable policies.

I couldn't help but wince watching Bremner Bird and Fortune tonight- Rory's take on Howard was worryingly close to the bone, because both sides have pledged to do the exact same things (or already done them in the past) and yet they're sniping at each other for carrying out, in essence, each others ideas.

Bloody politicians. But the poor buggers can't win- the war and the educational/medical reforms was ignoring the people's opinion, and yet the recent school-dinners overview is "jumping on the bandwagon" (which is already filled to capacity with knee-jerking Conversatives).

What do these people want? A true democracy? Because I don't, not until we've got an entirely sensible populace. And that'll never happen.
 
jondyfun said:
Absolutely. It boggles the ****ing mind. 'We're going to cut taxes, reduce public spending, and still run the NHS better than labour'

Nope. Sorry Howard. Not buying it.
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Well, from their point of view, a lot of money is wasted in the the NHS. I heard someone use the phrase "More managers than beds" the other day. In their opinion, they can cut the fluff and end up with a more efficient, yet cheaper Health Service.

Note: This post represents the view of the Conservative party, and may not reflect the viewpoint of Feath. So don't anyone have a go at me for it.
 
Edcrab said:
The Tories are basically Labour, except with an even worse track record (if you could believe that) and laughable policies.
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Yeah, and with added "I'm not racist, but..."
Edcrab said:
I couldn't help but wince watching Bremner Bird and Fortune tonight- Rory's take on Howard was worryingly close to the bone, because both sides have pledged to do the exact same things (or already done them in the past) and yet they're sniping at each other for carrying out, in essence, each others ideas.
Click to expand...
It was amazing, wasn't it? He perfectly pinpointed how Howard is so unsettling.
If you were caught behind enemy lines, and Howard was interrogating you, you'd shit yourself three times over and confess to almost anything just to apease him. He's clearly a terrifying sadist.



Feath said:
Well, from their point of view, a lot of money is wasted in the the NHS. I heard someone use the phrase "More managers than beds" the other day. In their opinion, they can cut the fluff and end up with a more efficient, yet cheaper Health Service.
Click to expand...
The NHS is bound to have a lot of administrative problems and red tape; it is, sadly, simply a matter of course, given the type of institution it is.
However, I do not believe that the Tories will streamline it into efficiency. They may "streamline" it to meet their tax-lowering promises, but I'd rather their claims focussed on streamlining, rather than taxes; it simply makes it seem less feasible and more like a bribe.
 
The Lib Dems have some great ideas - the problem is - they as a party are very weak.. as it's traditionally where failed politicians go to have one last stab at power...

What this country needs is a firebrand.
 
el Chi said:
The NHS is bound to have a lot of administrative problems and red tape; it is, sadly, simply a matter of course, given the type of institution it is.
However, I do not believe that the Tories will streamline it into efficiency. They may "streamline" it to meet their tax-lowering promises, but I'd rather their claims focussed on streamlining, rather than taxes; it simply makes it seem less feasible and more like a bribe.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well. It's up to voters whether they believe they'll do it. I'm just saying, it's not absurd what they say they'll do. You shouldn't assume that if they cut taxes the NHS will get worse. Putting more money into the NHS won't necessarily make it better and putting less money into the NHS won't necessarily make it worse.
 
Oh, absolutely. I just don't trust them one little bit, that's all.
 
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