Abortion Thread <Serious>

moz4rt said:
Here is something I found at anecdotage.com. Thought it was interesting.

Abort?

A noted professor of medicine at the University of California once presented his students with a curious hypothetical question:

"Here's the family history: The father has syphilis, the mother tuberculosis. They have already had four children. The first is blind. The second died. The third is deaf. And the fourth also has tuberculosis.

"Now the mother is pregnant again and the parents have come to you for advice. They are willing to have an abortion if you think they should. What do you say?"

After a brief discussion, the students were broken into small groups and instructed to return with a decision. Each group recommended an abortion.

"Congratulations," the professor remarked, surveying the class. "You have just taken the life of Beethoven."
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That's the German mother and father from the other thread 20 years down the track :)
 
jonnyapps said:
imo you can't make a hypothesis about something which steals away your pride, your dignity, your innocence and your freedom. You can't work out how you would deal with a physical symbol of that violation growing inside you with your emotions.
Such emotional torment might be irreversible to both the mother and the child. I would hate to be told I was the product of rape
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Well you are hypothesising just like me so its rather silly to then say you can't do that.
 
Lucifer Crass said:
The only reason why there is abortion is due to mostly rape cases and life/death cases. Also the fact that the mother is providing the life is also a factor
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how wrong you are. Rape resulting in pregnancy is extremely rare as are cases where the mother could die from giving birth.

1998 1.3 million abortions performed

1996 32,101 pregnancies related to rape, which these doctors characterize as Four themes--relationship rape, power dynamics, maternal ambivalence, and social reactions--

Am J Obstet Gynecol 1996 Aug;175(2):320-4; discussion 324-5

Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and descriptive characteristics from a
national sample of women.


BTW, 50 million abortions have been carried out since 1973. That dwarfs the holocaust by a large margin.
 
Meh there are too many people in the world anyway and since they arnt truly "alive" so its ok. If bringing it into the world will make someones life worse which it most likely will, dont have it. Also pregnecy is incredibly painful and once its born you will be unwilling to give him/her away because of mothely instincts and stuff...probably.
I suppose it makes sense with the souls and stuff i dont understand :(. But anyway im taking a selfish approach and it makes sense to me:)
 
With the exception of rape, i think abortion is wrong. Especially today, when thier are numourous contraceptives available.
 
I'm curious to know the relation between people here who have posted that they disagree with abortion and whether or not they are christian....I dont know if it's just thrust into the forefront but it seems that christians are the most vocal. Are there any hindu anti-abortion groups or muslim? buddist? Zoroastrian?
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
Well you are hypothesising just like me so its rather silly to then say you can't do that.
Click to expand...

sorry farrow i thought i was stating the factual attributes of a rape and then saying we shouldn't make a statement about the emotional results?
 
I don't see why people resort to abortion, why don't they just have the baby and give it up for adoption? Its a better resort then taking its life
 
Fat Tony! said:
Meh there are too many people in the world anyway and since they arnt truly "alive" so its ok. If bringing it into the world will make someones life worse which it most likely will, dont have it. Also pregnecy is incredibly painful and once its born you will be unwilling to give him/her away because of mothely instincts and stuff...probably.
I suppose it makes sense with the souls and stuff i dont understand :(. But anyway im taking a selfish approach and it makes sense to me:)
Click to expand...

There are too many people in the world? Heh, that sentence made me laugh and in my opinion a silly silly argument. About the mother instincts and such, whats the problem if she decides to keep the child? That's about the best solution available. mother gives birth to child, mother keeps the child... Your arguments might make sense to yourself, but they really aren't valid in the real world...
 
Fat Tony! said:
Meh there are too many people in the world anyway and since they arnt truly "alive" so its ok. If bringing it into the world will make someones life worse which it most likely will, dont have it. Also pregnecy is incredibly painful and once its born you will be unwilling to give him/her away because of mothely instincts and stuff...probably.
Click to expand...

For one, yea you are right there are ALOT of people in the world, but there are not TOO many. Yet.

Secondly, giving birth is just as painful (so I hear) as abortion. Some abortion cases have the baby full born and the doctor would take it and drown, choak, or cut the spinal nerves. So in those aspects you still have to "deliver" the child. I sure as hell would not want to be around to see it.

So why not just have the kid? There is no reason not too and I am pretty sure if the woman wanted an abortion her "motherly instincts" would not be all that strong for the child.

Edit- I dont understand how someone can kill a child like that, I cant even think about it without tearing up (and im not one to tear up often). And I have heard of Mothers giving birth in a bathroom all by themselves and then throwing the baby in the garbage can. How can this world be so atrocious!?
 
The Morning After is something I support. But, I just can't support abortion, I think it's murder. As soon as development starts I feel it's a living creature.
 
pro-life, 100%.

OK, to the thread starter:
"If both parents can make the child, then in my mind they can have the ability to abort it also. "

so...thats the right to kill? It's proven a baby is learning at just a few weeks of age, it looks human in less then a month! Why abort it? Have it and give it to adoption if you don't want it. (What, your afraid you'll get emotionally attached to it if you keep it until it's due?)

bah. About the ONLY time I could possibly conceed abortion is if it's a 12 year old or something, where her body couldn't handle a child...otherwise.

YOU had sex, You get the kid. Don't commit murder just because you can.
IMO, anyone that has an abortion should be given a glass jar with the remains and forced to keep it on a shelf in their living room.

and anyone that says that is sick...well..it isn't human? How is it sick?
 
A2597 said:
IMO, anyone that has an abortion should be given a glass jar with the remains and forced to keep it on a shelf in their living room.

and anyone that says that is sick...well..it isn't human? How is it sick?
Click to expand...

Damn good point, my boy, damn good point.
 
none of you understand (well maybe the guy who's gf had one). I'm a parent...when my wife was pregnant she took a routine test that gives out percentages as to the likihood of your child having downs syndrome. It's not a "yes or no" answer..they give you odds based on age and other factors , it's not exactly accurate. My wife recieved a 1 in 200 chance we would have a child with downs...the only way we would be 100 % sure it didnt have downs was through a test that also had a 200 in 1 chance that the baby could miscarry due to the test. We had a window of 2 weeks to decide what to do....it was the longest 2 weeks of my life

I really considered aborting my child because I know first hand how hard it is to live with downs syndrome (I used to teach children afflicted with downs)

my son doesnt have downs but it was an agonizing decision that was trust upon my wife and I.
 
To everyone who is trivialising it...

[sarcasm]Yeah, it's one of the easiest decisions a person will ever have to make! It's like slipping into a warm bath![/sarcasm]
 
CptStern said:
none of you understand (well maybe the guy who's gf had one). I'm a parent...when my wife was pregnant she took a routine test that gives out percentages as to the likihood of your child having downs syndrome. It's not a "yes or no" answer..they give you odds based on age and other factors , it's not exactly accurate. My wife recieved a 1 in 200 chance we would have a child with downs...the only way we would be 100 % sure it didnt have downs was through a test that also had a 200 in 1 chance that the baby could miscarry due to the test. We had a window of 2 weeks to decide what to do....it was the longest 2 weeks of my life

I really considered aborting my child because I know first hand how hard it is to live with downs syndrome (I used to teach children afflicted with downs)

my son doesnt have downs but it was an agonizing decision that was trust upon my wife and I.
Click to expand...

You were willing to abort your child because of a 1 in 200 chance of him having downs?

Sorry, perhaps it's because I don't have any children of my own, but I don't understand your reasoning there.
 
Moritz said:
Sorry, perhaps it's because I don't have any children of my own, but I don't understand your reasoning there.
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he doesn't want to raise a child with downs.
 
he said that through his experiences of teaching children with it, he wouldn't want his own child to go through that.

simply stating that he doesn't want a kid with downs... bad connotation.
 
Jackal hit said:
he said that through his experiences of teaching children with it, he wouldn't want his own child to go through that.

simply stating that he doesn't want a kid with downs... bad connotation.
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mere semantics.
1. He doesnt want to raise a child with downs.
2. He doesn't want his child to have downs.

you can sugar-coat it, but it's still the same result.
 
Maybe he didn't want another human to suffer thorugh life with downs. Maybe his experiance led him ot believe that living with downs is worse than death.
 
my sister has downs
shes cute as can be, doesn't really look to have it. Slow learning, but never yells/complains. rarely talks at all. Laughs alot, and understands things with no problem. She is a pianist, rides horses with the special olympics, makes her own breakfast, cleans her own room, and thinks Shrek is one of the best movies ever.

just because there is a chance they have downs, doesn't mean every case is horrible. Yes, there are times that downs can be VERY bad, but there is no way to tell how severe a case will be.
 
A bit off topic but I think for good reason.

I'd just like to say that I'm very impressed that this thread has stayed civil for so long. I don't know many forums/communities that would be able to discuss something as controversial as this and keep it nice and civil.

Well done guys :) You're great! :cheers:
 
A2597 said:
my sister has downs
shes cute as can be, doesn't really look to have it. Slow learning, but never yells/complains. rarely talks at all. Laughs alot, and understands things with no problem. She is a pianist, rides horses with the special olympics, makes her own breakfast, cleans her own room, and thinks Shrek is one of the best movies ever.

just because there is a chance they have downs, doesn't mean every case is horrible. Yes, there are times that downs can be VERY bad, but there is no way to tell how severe a case will be.
Click to expand...

which i think demonstrates that every person should have a chance in life, even if they aren't "normal" like everyone else. We are reaching a point that is eerily reminiscent of Gattaca where parents can pick and choose what their child will be. i think that's scary.
 
Sometimes I wonder what normal really is...such a thing doesn't exist to me. We're all different.
 
Adidajs said:
mere semantics.
1. He doesnt want to raise a child with downs.
2. He doesn't want his child to have downs.

you can sugar-coat it, but it's still the same result.
Click to expand...
yeah i know, i'm just stating, one connotation is bad, and he didn't mean it to sound that way...i think, heh

edit: watch, now that chris said we're all civil, i'll unintentionally start trouble ;(
 
I knew you guys wouldnt understand...only a parent would. When and if some of you become parents you'll realize nothing (not even your own life) can compare to the safety and well being of your child.

When I said I thought about aborting my child because of downs it was not for selfish reasons as you're all so quick to believe is my motivation. People with downs syndrome rarely live beyond the age of 40. They can rarely lead a productive life and often have multiple disorders besides downs and will need life time care. What happens to him after I'm gone?...most likely institutionalized because private care is beyond the reach of most families. Obviously we never choose to terminate the pregnancy as we both decided to take that chance, and we'd love him either way.

May you never have to make that decision because I gaurentee you the thought will cross your mind
 
My sister had three miscarrages, and 2 live births which lead to my two adorable neices. One is 2 and the other is 5.

It was painful, both physically and emotionally for her, and I think she would have given anything to save her babies if she had a choice. But then there are people who carelessly destroy their children. I just dont get it.

What if the child they are destroying would someday turn out a cure for cancer or be some other kind of important person. Would they still abort it? I doubt they would, they should give that thought.

BTW my sister is 12 years older than me, im 18 so you do the math.
 
Deadline said:
What if the child they are destroying would someday turn out a cure for cancer or be some other kind of important person. Would they still abort it? I doubt they would, they should give that thought.
Click to expand...

on the flip side what if that child became hitler, or saddam, or the guy who cleans the toilet at work after you've gone home?
the point is everytime you have sex alone you could potentially be wasting hundreds of cancer researchers, rocket scientists, gynacologists and custodial engineers :)


btw my condolences to your sister
 
CptStern said:
on the flip side what if that child became hitler, or saddam, or the guy who cleans the toilet at work after you've gone home?
the point is everytime you have sex alone you could potentially be wasting hundreds of cancer researchers, rocket scientists, gynacologists and custodial engineers :)


btw my condolences to your sister
Click to expand...

Damn you lol.. never thought about that... Sad truely...

*wacks off*
 
Deadline said:
More like a few hundred thousand :p
Click to expand...


ya but only one of them was a rocket scientist....you need more fiber in your diet ;)
 
actually, most of deadlines would be hitlers.. :|

anyway, i'll chime in. i personally don't have much respect people who use religious creed to define their position on something so important as this. personally, i don't much agree with abortion, nor would i want my wife/gf/whatever to have one (in the general case). however, i'm fully pro-choice. i don't believe anyone can have the right to tell the woman what she can or can't do with her body. and yes, it is her body. until the fetus is able to live outside of the womb, imo, it's the woman's decision.

obviously, it should be a last resort. it's not like people are out there having unprotected sex and abortions willy nilly. from what i understand, it's a pretty traumatic experience for most people. personally, i think women seeking abortions should have access to free counseling, and should be 100% certain to the best of their abilities that it's the only option left to them. but anyone who thinks that the government should be allowed to invade a womans body gets no respect from me. i'm sure you're all very broken up about that.
 
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