Afraid to talk about my beliefs

[tehsolace]

I've been contemplating discussing this personal topic for awhile now, mainly because I'm unsure if I will really gain anything from it. But lately, perhaps it be from the regulars in this forum impressing me with their mature and inspiring conversations and viewpoints, I have decided to ask for some advice from you all.

Firstly, let me say that at this point in my life I am unsure whether I am truly atheist or not, and for the most part I feel most comfortable describing myself as agnostic. Its a view that I agree with the most.

I was raised in a Christian family, and I practiced Christianity up to a certain point in my teenage life. I'm actually grateful for it too, because I have a personal respect and understanding for religions.

However, my family does not know that I have, since then, stopped believing in Christianity. The reason for this is because over the years, my family stopped going to church every Sunday and just remained content in their own beliefs, so at no point did my family have any reason to suspect that my beliefs had changed.

Normally, I wouldn't be worried to announce my new beliefs to my family, because I have the utmost content that they love me in every aspect, no matter if I were gay, Buddhist, or what have you.

What is stopping me is how my best friend reacted when I told him I was no longer Christian. He had asked me to join him to going to church with him and his grandfather, and I told him that the invitation meant a lot to me, but that I didn't feel like I would be comfortable with it because I was no longer Christian. This was new news to him, and he was shocked. He literally said to me, "I can't believe you would do this." and looked very disappointed in me. In the following weeks, he did his best to shine the light on my 'strayed mind', and even brought his grandfather into it by trying to have him talk to me about it. His grandfather, someone whom I have much respect for, asked me some very rude questions such as, "Well what do you believe in? Nothing?? You have to believe in something. Well that just doesn't make sense."

Needless to say, I don't want my family treating me like that. I know my family will always love me, just as my best friend continued to care about me, but at the same time I worry that they may see me differently, almost in a pitiful way.

I am not asking a direct question... just simply asking for general advice about the topic.

 

[ChiChi]

**** your best friend.If he doesn't aprreciate you enough to accept you, then it's not worth it be friend with him.

 

[Aenama]

^truth

 

[Walter]

I've been contemplating discussing this personal topic for awhile now, mainly because I'm unsure if I will really gain anything from it. But lately, perhaps it be from the regulars in this forum impressing me with their mature and inspiring conversations and viewpoints, I have decided to ask for some advice from you all.

Firstly, let me say that at this point in my life I am unsure whether I am truly atheist or not, and for the most part I feel most comfortable describing myself as agnostic. Its a view that I agree with the most.

I was raised in a Christian family, and I practiced Christianity up to a certain point in my teenage life. I'm actually grateful for it too, because I have a personal respect and understanding for religions.

However, my family does not know that I have, since then, stopped believing in Christianity. The reason for this is because over the years, my family stopped going to church every Sunday and just remained content in their own beliefs, so at no point did my family have any reason to suspect that my beliefs had changed.

Normally, I wouldn't be worried to announce my new beliefs to my family, because I have the utmost content that they love me in every aspect, no matter if I were gay, Buddhist, or what have you.

What is stopping me is how my best friend reacted when I told him I was no longer Christian. He had asked me to join him to going to church with him and his grandfather, and I told him that the invitation meant a lot to me, but that I didn't feel like I would be comfortable with it because I was no longer Christian. This was new news to him, and he was shocked. He literally said to me, "I can't believe you would do this." and looked very disappointed in me. In the following weeks, he did his best to shine the light on my 'strayed mind', and even brought his grandfather into it by trying to have him talk to me about it. His grandfather, someone whom I have much respect for, asked me some very rude questions such as, "Well what do you believe in? Nothing?? You have to believe in something. Well that just doesn't make sense."

Needless to say, I don't want my family treating me like that. I know my family will always love me, just as my best friend continued to care about me, but at the same time I worry that they may see me differently, almost in a pitiful way.

I am not asking a direct question... just simply asking for general advice about the topic.

Perhaps they're putting tradition as priority here. Happened to me when i've wanted to convert from catholic to orthodox for criticizing Vatican (But later i've decided that catholic views were a bit more true than orthodox). Nonetheless, i've caused quite a stirr in my family.
I suggest you give time for your family/friends to live with it. Afterall, it's your free will, not even parents can force you to believe if you don't want to.

 

[Raziaar]

Well, you're lucky to feel at least solidified in your view, despite what others around you think. I don't have that luxury anymore. For a long time on these forums now, and in other areas I have been put through ridicule of my religion, and ridicule of my person for what I believe in. It's gotten to the point now that I have some questioning doubts in my head, but it's so hard to fully explore them without a feeling of separation from something that has been such a strong factor in my life, ingrained in my head.

I don't know what to believe anymore, and resent myself for not being able to make up my mind completely one way or the other. I also resent those people who have made it their goal to try their best to make me feel as miserable as possible concerning my beliefs, doing everything they can to make me feel like I have lived a life following something wicked and evil despite my own preference of peace and happiness.

It's a dark, disorienting and lonely road I'm on right now and I don't know where it will lead. I want to cling to my faith but have some doubts about it, and so I don't know what I can do there. I do know that I cannot accept or befriend those who so gleefully tried to destroy my happiness in the rudest possible ways... with ridicule, teasing, and mean gestures rather than a more supportive approach to swaying me to their side.

 

[Absinthe]

No offense, but "best friends" shouldn't be putting you on the spot over something like this. I never had to have such an experience with peers because nearly all my friends have either been atheists or theists of the most lukewarm variety. Even the devout among my age group were people I could argue with without fear of severing ties. The most flak I ever got was from a group of Mormon kids that I'd met for a grand total of five minutes.

However, my family was a different matter. My brother is pretty much an atheist, even if he won't say it outright. But while my parents had pretty much abandoned most of their Catholicism, they were still believers in a personal god and I didn't know how they'd react. While I acknowledged myself as an atheist around 13, I pretty much already was one in the years preceding. I finally only admitted my atheism this past year, at 19.
To my surprise, they were supportive! I once had a fear of purchasing atheist literature in their presence, but they actually recommended that I do so. I even got my father to purchase Sam Harris' The End of Faith in audio-book form, and he's thoroughly enjoying it. There are still odd moments like when saying grace, but I've made clear my stance on it (I won't partake in it) and they've respected it.

My less immediate family has been less warm in the reception. One of my uncles has threatened me physical harm for expressing my views on religion after he not-so-subtly attempted to convert me and called me ignorant and uneducated. Some people that used to call me on a regular basis have completely ceased doing so. While I enjoy not having them bug me (talking to them always seemed like a chore), the correlation between my self-expression and their diminished contact is disconcerting. I wasn't too surprised, since many of them accused atheists of being lost and immoral, unaware of my own absence of belief.

For better or worse, you will eventually have to tell others about where you stand on the issue of religion, directly or indirectly. Faith is simply one of those factors you can't really predict. Regularly kind, friendly, and supportive people are entirely capable of dropping all such civilities when it comes to their god. Especially with the unfair stigma non-believers have had forced on them. But coming out is a much better choice than living in secrecy. It's a test to see if the love and affection others have for you is conditional or not.

 

[jondy]

After reading the responses, and having had, for the most part, atheist friends and family all my life, I don't have much to add. I hope your friendship doesn't fall apart over this, though, and I'm sure your family will be supportive no matter what you choose to believe.

 

[Geogaddi]

When I told my Christian best friend I was atheist, his exact response was "Wanna play CS?".

 

[theotherguy]

Same situation I'm in mate. I told my parents about it and my mother threatened to kick me out of the house and sell my possesions, and my father yelled at me until I cried. They then told my pastor and forced be to go to a "bible study" where I debated until he threw pascals wager at me and I just got up and left. I haven't talked to them since. I have talked to a few friends though, two of which wanted me to come with them to their strange secluded bible camp on a desolate mountain in arizona. (Which might have been fun, but I respectfully declined)

Coming out is tough man, it just depends on your situation. I'm not afraid to share my beliefs, but I'm not saying anything in my daily life anymore because my parents are extrmely hostile to the idea. (My mom equated it to nazism, and thinks it should be illegal, and they won't talk to my atheist uncle and refuse to allow me to see him. He's dying of cancer now and they thought it was a "good thing" because it might force him to "see the light")

 

[Tollbooth Willie]

When I told my Christian best friend I was atheist, his exact response was "Wanna play CS?".

Now THAT'S a best friend!

 

[Nemesis6]

Wow, with all due respect, your parents are messed up, Theotherguy.

Anyway, it's hard to give advice. Do you want to tell them? If you want to, you shouldn't hold back. If it doesn't matter, you can tell them if the subject comes up. But chances are that they've done the math already.

Fellow agnostic speaking. I never went to church. I was just baptized. I was dipped in holy water, and my parents said yes to all the standard things on my my behalf(Do you accept Jesus, do you renounce Satan, etc). When you become a teenager you get the choice of 'confirming' that what your parents said for you back then was true/if you stand by it. Atheist turned Agnostic I guess is the proper description of my religious beliefs.

Another thing is that where I live, going to Church really doesn't hold much ground as such among the people. And a lot of the ones that do, they just do it for the kids or the cosyness/whatever.

 

[CyberPitz]

Now THAT'S a best friend!

When I told my girlfriend I wasn't christian, she said, "Wanna fool around?"

Then she would cry her eyes out about how God was disappointed in her.

*sigh* Traumatizing bitch.

As for the thread. It's what YOU believe in. Somebody who doesn't stick with you down the whole road and view you the exact same no matter your belief, are just fooling you and themselves. You are you, what you believe in is a completely separate thing. Don't be afraid to come clean with what you believe. Tell them how you're feeling about the whole thing. They will understand, hell, they were kids too. Everybody has a mind of their own, it's up to you how you use it.

 

[Link]

My advise on religion, in all situations is:
Accept what you believe. If your unsure, accept that you are unsure at this time.
When you tell people and they accept it, keep them around.
When you tell people and they reject you for it, leave them behind.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Christians will attack you with threats and shame, because those are all, fundamentally, that christianity has to bring to the discussion.

Religion thrives on insularity, so when you challenge that insularity, you will get rejected from that comfortable nest.
Outside viewpoints are not appreciated.

The question here is whether your parents are strict enough in their religion that they will try to abuse you like your friend or otherguy's parents did. (And even otherguy's parents didn't follow Jesus' teachings on being kind to enemies that you cannot kill, and avoiding anger. They aren't simply religious; they are horrible people in ways that transcend religion.)

Since your parents don't go to church anymore, however, I strongly doubt it will go that far.
No, they sound more like those christians who don't actually follow the bible, and are tolerant of other viewpoints.
So they aren't religious, really, and are unlikely to reject you.
Basically, they are the opposite of otherguy's parents.

So the main thing you should do is prepare to support your stance. It may be easier to discuss the bible first, going over stuff like the flaws with Paul's doctrine, and then working up to the atheism part, with statistical proofs and whatnot.
You want to be ready to engage in a discussion, at least, instead of just dropping the A-bomb and seeing how they cope.
If they are good and rational human beings, they will listen to you and provide their own rebuttals, which you may then agree (but probably disagree) with.

Just in case they do freak out and threaten you, as a total worst-case scenario, the solution would be to tell them that you can follow all the rituals but there is no way to tell if you actually believe or not.
No matter how compliant you become to ritual, faith cannot be guaranteed. So your parents have, as their only option, to love you or be needlessly (and unchristianly) cruel.

Also, you could evoke some of the not-stupid things said in the bible. Since you are an atheist (agnosticism and atheism are effectively identical philosophies), the good news is they aren't allowed to kill you under biblical law. And, as I said above, they are then required to be kind to you under Jesus' teachings.
Ask them for valid reasons to continue the faith, and make it clear that you are open to those reasons should they exist.

The biggest obstacle you're facing is the terror of disapproval that any religious upbringing generates.
The abuse isn't going to happen though, I am sure, so don't worry about it.
You've been trained to fear rejection, but good people will not reject you. Your parents are good people.



As for how to get a discussion started:

"Hey, would you mind if I were an atheist?"

The fact that it's a question gives you somewhat of an escape route, as it introduces the idea before the folks can make any solid conclusions (and thus judgements) about you.
And it makes them do the initial heavy lifting of answering the question, so the pressure isn't on you.

 

[Sainku]

I guess I took my parents for granted when it comes to religion. I have never been afraid of expressing my beliefs. My dad is an athiest raised in a catholic family and my mom is a christian but pretty liberal as far as religion goes. It can even lead to some funny conversations. I can't imagine being in a posistion where I would feel like I would have to pretend I'm christian to be accepted.

Somone who won't accept you because of your religious beliefs isn't really worth your time. I'm not suggesting you go punch your best friend in the face or anything. But should the topic come up again, and this is coming from a "keep it to yourself" kind of guy, you might want to try talking about with him.

 

[Sainku]

EDIT: How did that happen

 

[tehsolace]

Thank you all so far for your advice.

I would like to add a note that I believe the reason my best friend was so adamant in questioning me was because of his strong beliefs in Christianity, and in his mind I was straying from the right path (almost like becoming an alcoholic, in his views). Naturally because he cares for me, he tried his best to 'help me'.

Responding to Mechagodzilla, the last thing I want to do is get into a philosophical debate with my family in our beliefs. I know exactly their position on it (having once believing the same as they did), and I don't wish to convince them of anything in regards to atheism or agnosticism. I merely want them to be aware of my beliefs and accept it.

The problem is, I don't know if they will do just that, or if they will try (for however long) to convince me that I should go back to Christianity.

Theres no doubt in my mind, however, that they won't be accepting of my decision. They certainly will not hate me for it.

The problem is, whether or not they will look down upon my decision or embrace it with acceptance.

 

[Krynn72]

There is a problem with the "If they dont accept it, then they arnt worth it" argument.

You see, most of the religious folk believe quite strongly in what their religion says. One of those things is that if you dont believe in it also, then you, pretty assuredly, are going to hell. Now, many people can realize that this is a fairly ridiculous claim, but its what they believe and you will have a hard time telling them otherwise.

So when they can't accept your religious beliefs, its not because they dont care about it. If that were the case then they would let you keep going on your sinful ways and go to hell. But, in fact, its the opposite. They love you, they are your friends, and when they are trying to convert you, or "save" you... its because they would hate to see something bad happen to you. They want to save you from damnation.

But you need to tell them. It may cause some friction at first, but the people that love you will eventually realize that you are serious about your beliefs, and not just confused. It will be hard on them, without a doubt, because they will have to come to accept that you (in their minds) might end up in hell. They will, in time, respect that it is your choice.

If you keep pretending you are somebody you are not, then it will be much harder for you than if you came out with the truth. You cant pretend you are someone else, because if you do then you will never be sure who you are.

 

[tehsolace]

There is a problem with the "If they dont accept it, then they arnt worth it" argument.

You see, most of the religious folk believe quite strongly in what their religion says. One of those things is that if you dont believe in it also, then you, pretty assuredly, are going to hell. Now, many people can realize that this is a fairly ridiculous claim, but its what they believe and you will have a hard time telling them otherwise.

So when they can't accept your religious beliefs, its not because they dont care about it. If that were the case then they would let you keep going on your sinful ways and go to hell. But, in fact, its the opposite. They love you, they are your friends, and when they are trying to convert you, or "save" you... its because they would hate to see something bad happen to you. They want to save you from damnation.

But you need to tell them. It may cause some friction at first, but the people that love you will eventually realize that you are serious about your beliefs, and not just confused. It will be hard on them, without a doubt, because they will have to come to accept that you (in their minds) might end up in hell. They will, in time, respect that it is your choice.

If you keep pretending you are somebody you are not, then it will be much harder for you than if you came out with the truth. You cant pretend you are someone else, because if you do then you will never be sure who you are.

Thats exactly how my best friend felt. And for a long time I just avoided the fact until he asked me to go to Church with him, and I let him know my new beliefs. He felt obligated to 'save me' and felt as though I was (am) going to Hell. Its hard to have my friend push his beliefs on me, not because he doesn't respect my beliefs, but because he cares about what he believes will happen to me when I die.

What if my family does the same? It would be very hard knowing that by telling my mother my beliefs, she may end up crying nightly because she believed I was doomed to damnation. The very thought keeps me from wanting to let anyone in my family know my true beliefs.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Responding to Mechagodzilla, the last thing I want to do is get into a philosophical debate with my family in our beliefs. I know exactly their position on it (having once believing the same as they did), and I don't wish to convince them of anything in regards to atheism or agnosticism. I merely want them to be aware of my beliefs and accept it.

Oh, I had assumed that much.
I didn't at all mean for you to try and "convert" them or anything.
But if you want them to be aware and accepting of your beliefs, you will have to prove those beliefs rational to some extent.

There are a lot of prejudices surrounding atheism, such as that it is a product of depression or mental illness. There are all manner of terrible and inaccurate things that can and often will be said, some of which your parents may believe.

Although this may not be the case with the parents, christian people are going to look down on you, so you're going to have to be ready to back yourself up.

Be ready to prove there's nothing wrong with you.

Don't provoke an argument, but keep the counterpoints ready for if/when people ask questions and make accusations.


As for making your family feel bad, that's outside your control. You have an imperative to yourself not to disguise the reality.
This thread is proof you don't want to live some kind of double life, so you'll simply have to respect the folks enough to believe they will cope with pain if it occurs.

Grown adults shouldn't be sheltered from reality, and this reality is no fault of your own. So don't feel guilt over it.
There is no need for guilt if you did nothing wrong.

 

[Krynn72]

What if my family does the same? It would be very hard knowing that by telling my mother my beliefs, she may end up crying nightly because she believed I was doomed to damnation. The very thought keeps me from wanting to let anyone in my family know my true beliefs.

You just need to tell them man. Speak with confidence, tell them not to worry. It may be awkward at first, and they might try and "help" you. But you need to show to them that you believe one hundred percent in this. Its all you can do. The truth is sometimes hurtful, but its the only way to live. If you dont tell them and continue pretending to be Christian, then you will have problems. Major problems.

Besides, I think you may be thinking on this too much. I really dont think your parents will be like you think they will. Granted I never met them, and only know what you have told us... but from my experience, people arnt usually as serious as they seem. My parents for example, used to go to church like yours did. They stopped going, again like yours did. I didnt really think they changed at all, I figured they just kept believing. However, when we got into a discussion once about religion, I realized that their views really did change. They still believe in god, and still think there could be a heaven and hell. However they dont believe in all the doctrine and rules any more. They told me that if there is a heaven or hell, then you will get there based on your actions in life, not on your beliefs.

My grandparents both go to church still, every sunday. I come from a very Irish family, so they are pretty darn religious. However they still love me and support me in every decision. People are more tolerant than we think, and family is family, no matter what individual beliefs we have.

 

[tehsolace]

Oh, I had assumed that much.
I didn't at all mean for you to try and "convert" them or anything.
But if you want them to be aware and accepting of your beliefs, you will have to prove those beliefs rational to some extent.

There are a lot of prejudices surrounding atheism, such as that it is a product of depression or mental illness. There are all manner of terrible and inaccurate things that can and often will be said, some of which your parents may believe.

Although this may not be the case with the parents, christian people are going to look down on you, so you're going to have to be ready to back yourself up.

Be ready to prove there's nothing wrong with you.

Don't provoke an argument, but keep the counterpoints ready for if/when people ask questions and make accusations.

Ah I misunderstood your remarks when you said have ready good points. My usual response to why I am agnostic is really why I don't believe in any religion, which is because I have no personal reason to take the leap of faith towards something that has not given back to me. I can see why Christians believe in what they do... even on a moral stand-point, it guides their life and helps give them a place to keep hope with if things get dire.. and its comforting for them to believe there is someone higher looking over them.

But thats not for me. I have proven time and again to be a very logical person, and I always show skepticism with the supernatural. I believe religion is something that in the past may have helped structure societies' morals and rules, but is more of a hinder towards true equality and acceptance in today's society. At the same time, though, I believe it has some good qualities for individuals... and it can, as I said before, give someone a sense of well-being in their life. In a sense, I believe that religion can be good on a small scale, but is damaging in a large scale. But I guess thats another discussion for another topic.

Anyways, needless to say -- I believe what I believe based mostly on my personality and personal experiences with religion... its hard for me to explain to someone why I believe so (which is why I don't want them trying to ask me why). Its almost like asking a Christian "Why do you believe in Christianity?" Its something that I don't think anyone can truly answer easily. I just do. Accept it.

 

[Raziaar]

Although this may not be the case with the parents, christian people are going to look down on you, so you're going to have to be ready to back yourself up.

With you looking down on others, and them looking down on you, it's no wonder you butt heads so often. Oh well though, no response to my post.

 

[venturon]

Is this sort of problem common in America? You probably can't relate to where I'm coming from, but faith is one of the less prominent aspects of Australian social interaction. For example, of my friends I only know little with regards to beliefs. I've gotten the impression through my experiences that a lot of people aren't too concerned with what you believe. I know that I am certainly indifferent when it comes to the question of whether not a God exists. Where I get a little more concerned is how that question impacts social relations and causes tension. Anyway, sorry to digress there, it's just a point of some interest.

You should make it clear to your friend that you are decided and that any attempt of his to make you convert will prove fruitless. You should ask him to stop trying and that tell him his attempts are making you feel uncomfortable, which is not a desirable quality in friends.

 

[tehsolace]

You should make it clear to your friend that you are decided and that any attempt of his to make you convert will prove fruitless. You should ask him to stop trying and that tell him his attempts are making you feel uncomfortable, which is not a desirable quality in friends.

Oh I already have... long ago. He knows where I stand. The problem now is avoiding the same situations with my family.

 

[Adabiviak]

It probably depends on how hardcore they are. On one end of the spectrum, there are parents that would completely disown you for this sort of thing and never look back. On the other end, they'll shrug, mutter something about forgiveness, and the issue will disappear. Where do you think they stand?

 

[Max35]

In regards to the OP, if you don't tell them, you are only denying the inevitable. It's going to happen sooner or later, I think maybe you could broach the subject more covertly, like say have the "End of Faith" book by Sam Harris (whatever his name is) lying on the kitchen table. Your parents will ask "Who's is this?" and the conversation takes off from there

Anyway, I've never told my parents that I'm agnostic. The reason I am agnostic instead of atheist is because being doubtful is part of my character, it's hard to change that. But back to the parents thing...my mom's a religious nut, so I have a hard time enduring her bubbly cheery christian attitude. My dad could really care less I think. I really don't talk to my parents all that much, so I've avoided conversing with them about it. I suppose I'll deal with it sooner or later. Or not.

 

[Dynasty]

**** your best friend.If he doesn't aprreciate you enough to accept you, then it's not worth it be friend with him.

Agreed. If a friend doesnt atleast show some support to what you chose to do, he/she is not a real friend.

Religion gets in the way, sure its something to believe in, but it also just brings unnecessary conflict(s).

 

[Faizu]

I've been contemplating discussing this personal topic for awhile now, mainly because I'm unsure if I will really gain anything from it. But lately, perhaps it be from the regulars in this forum impressing me with their mature and inspiring conversations and viewpoints, I have decided to ask for some advice from you all.

Firstly, let me say that at this point in my life I am unsure whether I am truly atheist or not, and for the most part I feel most comfortable describing myself as agnostic. Its a view that I agree with the most.

I was raised in a Christian family, and I practiced Christianity up to a certain point in my teenage life. I'm actually grateful for it too, because I have a personal respect and understanding for religions.

However, my family does not know that I have, since then, stopped believing in Christianity. The reason for this is because over the years, my family stopped going to church every Sunday and just remained content in their own beliefs, so at no point did my family have any reason to suspect that my beliefs had changed.

Normally, I wouldn't be worried to announce my new beliefs to my family, because I have the utmost content that they love me in every aspect, no matter if I were gay, Buddhist, or what have you.

What is stopping me is how my best friend reacted when I told him I was no longer Christian. He had asked me to join him to going to church with him and his grandfather, and I told him that the invitation meant a lot to me, but that I didn't feel like I would be comfortable with it because I was no longer Christian. This was new news to him, and he was shocked. He literally said to me, "I can't believe you would do this." and looked very disappointed in me. In the following weeks, he did his best to shine the light on my 'strayed mind', and even brought his grandfather into it by trying to have him talk to me about it. His grandfather, someone whom I have much respect for, asked me some very rude questions such as, "Well what do you believe in? Nothing?? You have to believe in something. Well that just doesn't make sense."

Needless to say, I don't want my family treating me like that. I know my family will always love me, just as my best friend continued to care about me, but at the same time I worry that they may see me differently, almost in a pitiful way.

I am not asking a direct question... just simply asking for general advice about the topic.

Don't worry. Once you get over that irresponsible friend of yours, it will all be over. That kind of friend is a very disrespectful person who doesn't respect your new beliefs.

And that other disrespectful old man? He doesn't deserved to be looked up to at all, Jesus had said, "Treat others as you want others to treat you." If I were you I will dare to tell that to that direspectful old man.

I may seem I am ranting right now, but hey, I have the right to be helpful to a member.

 

[Solaris]

I feel for you.

My Uncle who now lives in America and became a born again Christian disowned me after hearing my debate on religion on the BBC world service.

After hearing a lot of similar stories to you I think it might be best either to keep it secret or go all the way, join your local atheism club and be the next Sam Harris.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Atheism club? You mean a school?

 

[Pax]

Atheism club? You mean a school?

More like H to the E to the T.

- Pax

 

[Mechagodzilla]

D:

Not to derail the thread, but the concept of an atheism club (and really, all clubs which are based around a single concept) bewilders me.
Why bother meeting up with people who already agree with you?
Knowledge inherently comes through the conflict of opposing viewpoints. (See: HGfgiLig)

Returning to the topic again, it's insularity that leads to the lack of questioning and conflict that causes complacency, unhindered logical error, and thus religion.
An untested system, untested even by theory, is a weak system; systems that cannot adapt well tend to be wiped out.
That's why it is to everyone's benefit to be open about your beliefs and be able to justify your beliefs with rationality.

Even if someone is to remain a christian, they must be willing to vigilantly test for and reject false prophecies under the bible's internal logic.
Failure to do so leads to failure in the eyes of God; if you can't tell the difference between true prophecy and false prophecy, you will follow the false ones and end up in hell.
So christians owe it to themselves to be open to the possibility that any aspect of their current stance on faith could be wrong.

Valid opposing viewpoints do not undermine a person. They only undermine error.
As a result, insularity intensifies and promotes error, and since error is always bad it is thus an absolutely moral imperative to dispell insularity by speaking your mind to others - and to test what others say to you.

 

[Solaris]

D:

Not to derail the thread, but the concept of an atheism club (and really, all clubs which are based around a single concept) bewilders me.
Why bother meeting up with people who already agree with you?
Knowledge inherently comes through the conflict of opposing viewpoints. (See: HGfgiLig)

Returning to the topic again, it's insularity that leads to the lack of questioning and conflict that causes complacency, unhindered logical error, and thus religion.
An untested system, untested even by theory, is a weak system; systems that cannot adapt well tend to be wiped out.
That's why it is to everyone's benefit to be open about your beliefs and be able to justify your beliefs with rationality.

Even if someone is to remain a christian, they must be willing to vigilantly test for and reject false prophecies under the bible's internal logic.
Failure to do so leads to failure in the eyes of God; if you can't tell the difference between true prophecy and false prophecy, you will follow the false ones and end up in hell.
So christians owe it to themselves to be open to the possibility that any aspect of their current stance on faith could be wrong.

Valid opposing viewpoints do not undermine a person. They only undermine error.
As a result, insularity intensifies and promotes error, and since error is always bad it is thus an absolutely moral imperative to dispell insularity by speaking your mind to others - and to test what others say to you.

Atheists can be discriminated against in the USA, so I imagine it my be helpful for a bit of comradeship with fellow atheists.

 

[99.vikram]

I really didn't think tolerance of atheist beliefs was a problem where you live. Most people I know are aware that I am not a religious person, and nobody has lectured me yet (grandmother did once, though).

 

[Mechagodzilla]

It's a huge problem.

When a third of the Earth's population believe that non-christians get punished eternally (and two thirds of the remainder believe similar things), it's inevitable that folks who don't drink the kool-aid get demonized, literally.

Even if the majority of religious people are secular enough not to waste material value (time, money, etc.) on evangelism, their sheer numbers make it statistically inevitable for unjustifiably hateful people with time on their hands to emerge in vast numbers.


And small exclusive clubs never lead to increased tolerance.

 

[kirovman]

Debate society.

Now there's a club you should join.

And small exclusive clubs never lead to increased tolerance.

Who needs tolerance when you have plans for world domination?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Tolerance was the wrong word.

We already have lots of tolerance, which basically consists of covertly hating other groups while protecting your own opaque ideological bubble with a thick greasy coating of other people's tolerance.

Tolerance itself is a primary cause of intolerance - a stank breeding pit for hatred, if you will.

So **** tolerance.
What I meant is that insular groups never, ever, lead to beneficial change.
No good ever results from insularity, but a shit-ton of evil does.

 

[Walter]

Atheists can be discriminated against in the USA, so I imagine it my be helpful for a bit of comradeship with fellow atheists.

i guess that's one more thing people are discriminated of. People tend to discriminate everyone who's not like them.

 

[Solaris]

i guess that's one more thing people are discriminated of. People tend to discriminate everyone who's not like them.

Not society at large really, I saw a poll somewhere about atheists getting discriminated against was pretty shocking, can't remember much about it though.