America.....full of dangerous thinking people?

[repiV]

Why should the Arab nations do anything for you? Why should any nation/race help you? You drawing up some kind of worthiness list or something?

For the simpleminded amongst us, allow me to rephrase.
What have the Arabs contributed to the world lately (aside from misery, oppression and death)?

 

[pomegranate]

For the simpleminded amongst us, allow me to rephrase.
What have the Arabs contributed to the world lately (aside from misery, oppression and death)?

Um, besides oil? The lifeblood of the global economy?

 

[repiV]

Um, besides oil? The lifeblood of the global economy?

How did they "contribute" it? They just happen to be sitting on top of a big pile of it. Pure luck. Any society of any worth would have used that absolute fortune in oil revenue to create a quality of life for its people that puts the rest of the world to utter shame.

 

[Aenama]

awwww everybody is ignoring my awesome post.

 

[repiV]

awwww everybody is ignoring my awesome post.

Well it wasn't really awesome before you edited it, which I only just saw.

Yes, the US is heading for a fall. A big fall.
But no matter how big that fall, the US will recover. The strength of character, entrepreneurial spirit and unswavering belief in "the American way" that makes up the American character ensures that.
Unless something changes fast, Europe is also heading for a fall...yet because of the weak-willed, self-defeatist "all cultures are equally valid" attitude that prevails here, we may never recover. Are you looking forward to an Islamic Europe?

 

[Aenama]

no,I believe that the western culture is superior ,in many ways.
That has nothing to with skin color and what not.It's about how we raise or kids and treat each other,right now the muslim AND the western/christian world is failing at those 2 points.

 

[repiV]

no,I believe that the western culture is superior ,in many ways.
That has nothing to with skin color and what not.It's about how we raise or kids and treat each other,right now the muslim AND the western/christian world is failing at those 2 points.

Kids here have it too easy these days. They have no appreciation of value, hardship, responsibility or other people's hard work, and it may just be considered child abuse to teach them these things. That's why so many of them are little ****ing brats. They want it all and they don't want to have to work for it, and scorn people who are accomplished in life.
If Labour had their way, we'd live in a sharp edge-free world where noone is capable of making a mistake because it might "hurt their feelings".
And when you grow up, you can always count on the government to step in and protect you if you feel offended - note the police getting involved in the Big Brother "racism" row. Jesus ****ing Christ...sieg heil or what.

Somewhere like Hong Kong is probably the place to be, culture-wise. All the best aspects of Western philosophy combined with a value system that hasn't been corrupted by socialist/nanny-state ideals.
HK is the most capitalist place in the world, but there is virtually no crime. That must tell you something.

 

[pomegranate]

They contribute it by selling it. What else do most countries, as a whole (especially less developed) countries, 'contribute', besides raw materials and manufacturing?

 

[Kadayi]

How did they "contribute" it? They just happen to be sitting on top of a big pile of it. Pure luck. Any society of any worth would have used that absolute fortune in oil revenue to create a quality of life for its people that puts the rest of the world to utter shame.

So by your own rationale, America can't be considered a society of worth because it's own oil barons did nothing to raise the quality of life for it's citizens, instead they pocketed wealth beyond compare to keep an elite in perpetual power.

Also why is it so necessary in your view to shame other nations? If by virtue of fate a man has more than another, it's a base and vulgar habit to laud it over him.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said:?Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

 

[repiV]

They contribute it by selling it. What else do most countries, as a whole (especially less developed) countries, 'contribute', besides raw materials and manufacturing?

Science, education, technology...you know, things requiring intelligence and innovation?
There's a reason our economy is known as a "knowledge economy" or more accurately a high-tech service economy.
The fact that Arab nations sell oil says nothing whatsoever about their worth as a civilisation, but the fact that they fail to take advantage of these easy riches in order to create a decent society says a lot about their lack of it.
We, on the other hand, are rich and successful because we advance the human race through scientific progress and high-tech business that improves quality of life for people all over the world.

 

[repiV]

So by your own rationale, America can't be considered a society of worth because it's own oil barons did nothing to raise the quality of life for it's citizens, instead they pocketed wealth beyond compare to keep an elite in perpetual power.

America's oil barons are businessmen, not kings. And that wealth is taxed, by the way. Furthermore, oil is not America's only real source of income.

Also why is it so necessary in your view to shame other nations? If by virtue of fate a man has more than another, it's a base and vulgar habit to laud it over him.

Do you see me "shaming" poor yet harmless and humble nations? No.
You do see me setting the record straight about a worthless region of the world that only enjoys any quality of life at all because of the sweat and blood of progress advanced by other nations.

 

[Aenama]

Science, education, technology...you know, things requiring intelligence and innovation?
There's a reason our economy is known as a "knowledge economy" or more accurately a high-tech service economy.
The fact that Arab nations sell oil says nothing whatsoever about their worth as a civilisation, but the fact that they fail to take advantage of these easy riches in order to create a decent society says a lot about their lack of it.
We, on the other hand, are rich and successful because we advance the human race through scientific progress and high-tech business that improves quality of life for people all over the world.

Well, repiV thats because of their religion.They can't think out of the box.



btw,because of Christianity Science in the western world,especially in Europe is actually behind.

people were burned alive for saying the world is shaped like a ball.
Women were ill educated about sexuality and their body because there were no female doctors and male doctors weren't allowed to examine a nude female.




All of this happened all they way to the early 1800's.
in the western world.

 

[pomegranate]

Only certain countries - mostly the rich ones, unfortunately, - are able to contribute to the knowledge economy. Generally undeveloped countries can't contribute to science and technology, yet out of all of them you single out the Arab countries. Hmm...

 

[Kadayi]

Science, education, technology...you know, things requiring intelligence and innovation?
There's a reason our economy is known as a "knowledge economy" or more accurately a high-tech service economy.
The fact that Arab nations sell oil says nothing whatsoever about their worth as a civilisation, but the fact that they fail to take advantage of these easy riches in order to create a decent society says a lot about their lack of it.
We, on the other hand, are rich and successful because we advance the human race through scientific progress and high-tech business that improves quality of life for people all over the world.

You've clearly never been to Dubai or Kuwait. You also have some very quaint notions as to how industry works and whose benefiting.

 

[Beerdude26]

repiV, while a lot of your arguments might make sense, do you REALLY think that replacing every single arab-looking person with "western" people is suddenly going to make the problem vanish into thin air? (and POSSIBLY EVEN INCREASING THE GLOBAL WARMING PROBLEM OHNOES :O*)

No. The situation will remain the same: they get richer faster than us, and they sell us oil.

*Sorry, just had to go there.

 

[repiV]

You've clearly never been to Dubai or Kuwait. You also have some very quaint notions as to how industry works and whose benefiting.

You use Dubai as an example?
Dubai is like it is purely because of massive foreign investment! It might as well be an American holiday camp in the Middle East.

 

[Kadayi]

You do see me setting the record straight about a worthless region of the world that only enjoys any quality of life at all because of the sweat and blood of progress advanced by other nations.

So what are you views on Africa then? Cradle of Civilisation or Aids Riddled spongers ripe for extermination? I mean what have the Africans done for us lately? What cool high tech inventions did the Zulus come up with? :dozey:

 

[repiV]

Well, repiV thats because of their religion.They can't think out of the box.



btw,because of Christianity Science in the western world,especially in Europe is actually behind.

people were burned alive for saying the world is shaped like a ball.
Women were ill educated about sexuality and their body because there were no female doctors and male doctors weren't allowed to examine a nude female.




All of this happened all they way to the early 1800's.
in the western world.

The early 1800s...before the industrial revolution, even. Quite a long time ago, really.

 

[repiV]

So what are you views on Africa then? Cradle of Civilisation or Aids Riddled spongers ripe for extermination? I mean what have the Africans done for us lately? What cool high tech inventions did the Zulus come up with? :dozey:

They've done sweet **** all, but they don't cause us any trouble either. So I don't care one way or the other.

 

[Beerdude26]

Why do you keep generalizing the entire middle east into a few countries that want to see the blood of Americans flow freely? Just like the Zulus don't represent the entirety of Africa, Iran doesn't represent the entire middle east.

 

[repiV]

Certain countries - mostly the rich ones, unfortunately, - contribute to the knowledge economy. Generally undeveloped countries can't contribute to science and technology, yet out of all of them you single out the Arab countries. Hmm...

Arab countries are shitholes despite being rich. A condition common only to the Middle East.
Plus, unlike Poles, Chileans or Latvians, Islam and the hatred and ignorance it breeds causes us endless problems at home and abroad. Problems that could be our undoing.

repiV, while a lot of your arguments might make sense, do you REALLY think that replacing every single arab-looking person with "western" people is suddenly going to make the problem vanish into thin air? (and POSSIBLY EVEN INCREASING THE GLOBAL WARMING PROBLEM OHNOES :O*)

No. The situation will remain the same: they get richer faster than us, and they sell us oil.

*Sorry, just had to go there.

I don't want to replace anyone with anyone. I just want immigration from the Middle East barred and us to get serious about our national security and integrity. They can be ignorant all they like, as long as it doesn't affect us. I would say we should go isolationist, but sadly we need the oil.

 

[repiV]

Why do you keep generalizing the entire middle east into a few countries that want to see the blood of Americans flow freely? Just like the Zulus don't represent the entirety of Africa, Iran doesn't represent the entire middle east.

Nowhere in the Middle East is a desirable place to live. It's all shit. Except Dubai, which doesn't count as, like I said, it may aswell be an American holiday camp.

 

[Kadayi]

They've done sweet **** all, but they don't cause us any trouble either. So I don't care one way or the other.

What you don't care that they aren't making the most of themselves and becoming civilised (in your view), because they aren't presently starting anything. How can you be sure they aren't plotting. wouldn't it be best to take them out while you can, before they get the wits to run amok, and start sticking it to all the white lady folks?

What about the South Americans? Cocaine, Coffee and Potatoes ...nothing remotely good since then. A history of human sacrifice..why take chances.

 

[Beerdude26]

I don't want to replace anyone with anyone. I just want immigration from the Middle East barred and us to get serious about our national security and integrity. They can be ignorant all they like, as long as it doesn't affect us. I would say we should go isolationist, but sadly we need the oil.

When you come up with a doable master plan to cut away about a tenth of the world from the rest, I'll look at it. But currently, excommunicating annoying factors doesn't really work. In fact, the Christian Church excommunicated loads of people, but that didn't halt them.

 

[repiV]

What you don't care that they aren't making the most of themselves and becoming civilised (in your view), because they aren't presently starting anything. How can you be sure they aren't plotting. wouldn't it be best to take them out while you can, before they get the wits to run amok.

What about the South Americans? Cocaine, Coffee and Potatoes ...nothing remotely good since then. A history of human sacrifice..why take chances.

Your post makes no sense.

 

[Aenama]

repiV you seem to measure a person worth on they have accomplished for Society.
Not everyone can be a rocket scientist,and also I hate to admit but,one of the reasons the rest of the world is ****ed is because they way we exploit them.

I suggest you google:"Americas backyard"
South Americans have every right not to like america,I'm not saying though that someone should take revenge on America but......South America and the ME is the way it is because:




The West invests in corrupt Governments (the saudis)
If the US or even france think it will benefit them,they will invest and support Mass Murderes (Saddam)
enslave whole nations especially Africa to build a Country (US,UK and FR)
or look at spain and what they did "in the name of god" to South America

 

[repiV]

When you come up with a doable master plan to cut away about a tenth of the world from the rest, I'll look at it. But currently, excommunicating annoying factors doesn't really work. In fact, the Christian Church excommunicated loads of people, but that didn't halt them.

It would work, if we didn't need their oil. It just depends how serious you are about it.
If you really wanted to keep people from the Middle East out of the West, you could do it.

 

[Kadayi]

It would work, if we didn't need their oil. It just depends how serious you are about it.
If you really wanted to keep people from the Middle East out of the West, you could do it.

I think by serious he means 'happy camps' where they can be made 'happy' permanently, Southpark style . :upstare:

 

[Beerdude26]

It would work, if we didn't need their oil. It just depends how serious you are about it.
If you really wanted to keep people from the Middle East out of the West, you could do it.

But the thing is: That would require an utterly enormous amount of effort just to patch the problem. It's a much better idea to help them become civilised and get it over with instead of having to fight a neverending onslaught of increasingly extremistic countries.

 

[repiV]

repiV you seem to measure a person worth on they have accomplished for Society.

Yes, that's right.

Not everyone can be a rocket scientist,and also I hate to admit but,one of the reasons the rest of the world is ****ed is because they way we exploit them.

No, not everyone can be a rocket scientist. And not everyone needs to be. But unlike the Middle East, our system is good enough to turn enough children into rocket scientists.

I suggest you google:"Americas backyard"
South Americans have every right not to like america,I'm not saying though that someone should take revenge on America but......South America and the ME is the way it is because:

The West invests in corrupt Governments (the saudis)
If the US or even france think it will benefit them,they will invest and support Mass Murderes (Saddam)
enslave whole nations especially Africa to build a Country (US,UK and FR)
or look at spain and what they did "in the name of god" to South America

The Middle East is a shithole because it's defined by ignorance and fundamentalism. It has NOTHING to do with America. If anything, America improves the Middle East by paying for all that oil.
South America is poor because of corruption and poorly functioning economies more than anything. What exactly did the US do in Mexico that was so bad? Nothing...it's just that you can't do any kind of business there without paying a bribe.
But yes, the West invests in corrupt governments. At the end of the day, what price would we pay to oppose Saudi Arabia? The simple and ugly truth is that we need them. Reality is more important than morality at the end of the day. When we're free of the oil shackles, Saudi will get what's coming to them.

 

[repiV]

But the thing is: That would require an utterly enormous amount of effort just to patch the problem. It's a much better idea to help them become civilised and get it over with instead of having to fight a neverending onslaught of increasingly extremistic countries.

We were doing just fine until recently. Our population is 3% Muslim because we chose to let them in, not because they forced their way here.

 

[Beerdude26]

We were doing just fine until recently. Our population is 3% Muslim because we chose to let them in, not because they forced their way here.

Well, if we are to believe you, it will only worsen from this point on. So why waste all that time on fighting the symptoms (immigration) instead of the problem (poverty)?

 

[repiV]

Well, if we are to believe you, it will only worsen from this point on. So why waste all that time on fighting the symptoms (immigration) instead of the problem (poverty)?

The problem isn't poverty, it's ignorance.
Polish immigrants don't cause problems, and they're poor. Neither do Kenyan immigrants, or Sri Lankan immigrants, or Chinese immigrants (triads aside ).
It's a Muslim problem, not a poor problem.

 

[Aenama]

Yes, that's right.



No, not everyone can be a rocket scientist. And not everyone needs to be. But unlike the Middle East, our system is good enough to turn enough children into rocket scientists.



The Middle East is a shithole because it's defined by ignorance and fundamentalism. It has NOTHING to do with America. If anything, America improves the Middle East by paying for all that oil.
South America is poor because of corruption and poorly functioning economies more than anything. What exactly did the US do in Mexico that was so bad? Nothing...it's just that you can't do any kind of business there without paying a bribe.
But yes, the West invests in corrupt governments. At the end of the day, what price would we pay to oppose Saudi Arabia? The simple and ugly truth is that we need them. Reality is more important than morality at the end of the day. When we're free of the oil shackles, Saudi will get what's coming to them.

gosh,I think we keep on sliding passed each other,What Im trying to say is if the REALLY extreme Jesus freaks had the power in the US or else where in the western world then we would be the exact same way,they wouldn't want us to explore space because they are afraid of what we might find.
heck,they don't even want us to take a scientific look at our past.

(Jesus riding on a Dinosaur anyone?)

 

[repiV]

gosh,I think we keep on sliding passed each other,What Im trying to say is if the REALLY extreme Jesus freaks had the power in the US or else where in the western world then we would be the exact same way,they wouldn't want us to explore space because they are afraid of what we might find.
heck,they don't even want us to take a scientific look at our past.

(Jesus riding on a Dinosaur anyone?)

Indeed, but the really extreme Jesus freaks are a tiny minority, and that's in the US.
Mainstream Islam is comprised of extreme Mohammed freaks.

 

[Kadayi]

* Imagines RepIV out on a night, Paki bashing:-

'take that you filthy sub-human Mohammed scum, it's off to the 'happy camp' for your kind'

RepIV a racist? no chance

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I think the better question would be what tremendous technological and scientific advances place the US ahead of, say, Japan.
Then, once you've listed those, you can surely number which of those contributions were made by fundamentalist christians.
After all, the entire point of your argument is to "prove" that christianity can't be too objectionable, isn't it?
Because christians build stuff, they aren't as bad as muslims, so shut up about it, right?

It's fun to call a fifth of the planet inferior and all, but you should get some perspective on the issue.
The middle east, in general, is not as stupid and inept as you suppose they are. They simply lack the economic and political stability required for innovation to occur.
It's basically what happened after Rome fell in Eurpope. You get specialization instead of innovation, and that specialization includes specialization at religion.

And, remember, that I have effectively proven that - if you are a believer - the better you are at understanding a holy text, the more likely you are to participate in a crusade. Or jihad, in this case.
Muslims are not inferior in terms of thought power. They simply focus all their power on the maintenance of tradition over the quest for innovation.

The same goes for christians in america. Those who refuse to give up the bible for secularism are slowly but steadily losing political power in the face of rationality. They're still in power, make no mistake, but they understand that they are losing power. Every violent movie and videogame that sells big, and every person wearing a condom proves that they're losing their grip on the public consciousness.

So what do they do when they know they're losing? The exact thing that the various religions of the middle east are doing: falling back and becoming experts at tradition, while cutting back on innovation. Still, as I have said in the past, christian fundamentalist aren't stupid either. They are tremendously adept, perhaps brilliant, at being horribly wrong.
Examples:
Stem Cell Research, Evolution, Birth Control, etc.

So, to sum up, you are being terribly inaccurate in comparing the United States to the amorphous brown blob you call the mid-east.
More accurately, you should compare the innovations made by christians with those made by islamic folks and finally compare both with those made by scientists.

Spoiler: science wins, because in terms of limiting technological progress, christianity and islam are equally terrible ideologies.

 

[Absinthe]

Sort out your own backyard before worrying about your neighbours tbfh.

The Islamic extremists have only risen to prominence in the ME because they have been able to trade off the ill feeling towards the US through it's continued support of the Israeli occupation, and more recently the invasion of Iraq.

US occupation is a convenient scapegoat for the most part. These people have been warring with and blowing themselves up against each other for years and years. Even its educated intelligentsia and the wealthy have condoned or taken part in the bloodshed.

You cannot rationalize suicide-bombing buses full of innocent civilians and even children with a US presence. There is something deeply flawed in the region's mindset, and much of it can be traced to the barbaric practices of fundamentalist Islam.

In this day and age of nuclear proliferation, my neighbor's backyard is very well my business. It's everybody's business if you're making fertilizer bombs on your own property with the intention of killing others because of your insane ideas. Jesus Christ, for all the hard-ons the US may have for the Second Coming, at least we have a degree of rationality that keeps us from committing wholesale genocide over different faiths out of sheer principle. Or at least I hope we do.

People like to throw around words like "oppression" when talking about the Middle East, and it's a misleading ploy. They don't care about oppression so long as it's built on the Muslim faith. Take note that I am not pro-Israel any more than I am pro-Palestine or any other member of that prominent conflict, as I think they're all ridiculous. But assuming all the Western powers were to uproot themselves and the Israelis transported themselves elsewhere, what do you think would happen? Religious fervor would die down? A chance for civilized societies to spring up would present itself? All evidence thus far points to a resounding no. It would be nothing but a massive springboard for theocracies (erected by the very "oppressed" people we've left alone), and then consequent fighting between such respective governments over who is a better poster child for Mohammed.

They've already shown themselves willing to destroy property and kill people over cartoons. No absence of wealth or education could possibly account for such nonsense. Allowing firepower to be put in their hands is naive at best and dangerously irresponsible at worst. And before anybody says "Oh, well then the US shouldn't have nukes either!", let me tell you up-front that I agree. I don't think humanity as a whole is mature enough to handle such technology responsibly. But you can't just unlearn nuclear technology. For better or worse, it is here to stay. And instead of throwing the towel in and letting everybody get their hands on them because of their supposed "rights", I think it is in everybody's best interests that the downward spiral is at least slowed down or halted entirely, despite its possible irreversible state.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I think Kadayi is refering more to the prominence of the fundamentalism than the fundamentalism itself.

As you said, the insanity has alway been there, but I think it's pretty safe to say that the united states, collectively, never really cared that much until very recently. And, in response, fundamentalist Islam pretty much left the US alone. Increasingly though, the various and frankly constant foreign policy blunders in the mideast accumulated to the point that Osama bin Laden & Friends concluded, correctly, that the US was too much of a problem to be ignored any longer for their religion to continue its spree of dominance.
Those US foreign policy blunders, of course, stemmed mostly from being anti-fundamentalist/anti-totalitarian, but failing to approach anti-fundamentalism from a secular stance. If you're christian and anti-fundamentalist, that makes you look to everyone else, again justifiably, as a crusading christian extremist.
Which, of course, is an exactly accurate description of this case.

What I'm getting at is that the US has been indeed fighting to spread "Freedom and Democracy", but those concepts have been utterly devalued because they were (and are) redefined as Christian Freedom and Christian Democracy. By turning the utterly secular concept of Freedom (as defined by the declaration of independence) into a Christian standard (via the false, constantly re-enforced and insanely popular myth that the US was founded as a christian nation, along with the general merging of church and state), freedom becomes relativist, and consequently meaningless.

Freedom is, in reality, a universal absolute based on logic. Harm is quantifiable, and thus minimizable. Simple stuff that applies to everyone.

By appropriating the concept into christianity, americans still see Freedom as an absolute value. But, in this case, its authority is defined by "Jesus", which is a concept that is utterly meaningless to two-thirds of the planet, and relatively meaningless to a large portion of the remainder.

"Freedom", as a result, stops being secular - which means it's not logical - which means it's not universal - which means that it can never be applied to the Mideast without causing predictable unrest and violence.

So, when you get down to brass tacks, christianity is very nearly as responsible for terrorism as the terrorists themselves, with the sole difference being that they're using different good intentions to pave that road to hell.

 

[Absinthe]

Ah, I see. In that light, I'm in complete agreement.

I just don't think it's at all practical or even "safe" to just let bygones be bygones in this day and age. There is some truth in saying you should take care of your own business before worrying about others'. But in the face of blatant and explicit danger, you need to balance both.
While it is arguable that every nation has military or possibly nuclear rights, there's little debate as to which countries would be the most likely to bomb the shit out of you if they had the capabilities. I don't advocate military intervention with such countries, but attempts at education. And while I previously stated that even those with college degrees in such countries can still harbor insanely murderous ideals, I think the issue lies less with the amount of education and more with what they're being educated about, namely the application of critical thinking skills when it comes to superstitious religious beliefs. The US is also embaressingly guilty of lacking this.