America, Iraq and the crimes of the 'coalition'

[bigun]

I think that thier is a myth of democracy in America, the vast majority of power is still in the hands of unaccountable institutions, this means they can operate with thier own agenda's and bias. The media is a prime example of this, unnacountable as it is privately owned, this poses a real danger to the education of Americans via popular media outlets in years to come.

 

[Korgoth]

Well if you were to look closely at the up-bringings of the last 4 or 5 presidents you will find many similarities. Many of these men went to the same schools, shook hands with the same buisness associates, some even served in the same administrations as the others and if you tie it all together you will see that there really is no difference in their intrests either. Some just do it a little quieter than others..

 

[bigun]

In my opinion President's should be made more accountable. I dont know about most Americans, but from some I get this feeling that George Bush, as elected by the people, cannot be wrong, because he views mirror that of the peoples, which are inherently right.

Sorry that was confusing let me sum it up, Many Americans believe insulting George Bush is a slander on them.

It reminds me of when I used to post on MEO forums, one of the people there said that he 'used to like me until i insulted the president, that took it a step too far'.

 

[clarky003]

bigun that is totally correct, 'applause' id of worded it the same, one question... even though americans know this themselves. why do some incesantly keep feeling like the rest of the world is having a go at them...? blinded by patriotic protocol? rather than making a decision on whats right, and whats wrong, without being biased.

 

[Korgoth]

lol Insult the president all you want. I've said it many times over that this administration in no way represents the way I view the world, or how I think we should do buisness. I don't like George Bush, never have. I think he stole the election (like a lot of people do), and I think he has turned this great country into a struggling sh*thole, one lost job, one dead innocent (be him/her american or foriegn) at a time.
His foriegn policies are dangerous and disgracefull and his domestic policies are reckless to say the least. So like many people who care about this country (not to say repubs don't because they do, they just think it takes a different approach) i will vote in november and hopefully my vote will be heard and GWB will be pushed from office by a candidate who can (and I pray he can) fix his formers mistakes, heal foreign relations, mend fences with all we've angered and put America back on the moral high ground were we are used to being.

(sorry about spelling and grammer, don't have a lot of time)

 

[bigun]

I would say patriotism is used as a weapon these days, its effective even though its use is morally questionable. It stifles those who disagree with something a current administration may want to progress with and rallies those who are too short sighted to believe they wont be doing their country a disservice if they happen to disagree with something the administration wants to happen.

Lets look at John Kerry, one of the recent insults hurled against him was that he was 'unpatriotic', but what these people who throw this word around fail to understand is the very definition of the word - Im sure if you asked them they wouldnt come up with a coherent answer of what patriotism is other than:

"Love of ones country"

But to what extent, does love of ones country mean one has to turn a blind eye to criminal actions commited by the Government in power - and that this 'love of one's country' should extent to love of the administration itself - thats a whole new kind of patriotism if ever I heard one.

 

[A2597]

what? No one thinks that would solve the issue? Sheesh, no sence of humor around here...

seriously though, what IS it with you people and bashing the forces in Iraq. 99% of you seem to ignore the hundereds of coalition forces killed by Iraqis. Rather then blaming the person that pulled the trigger, you blamb Bush.

"Oh! Lets spend a month dissing 4 US soldiers that abused a few Iraqi PRISONERS (read, the guys trying to kill us), and ignore the ambush attacks, the beheadings, the dragging through the streets dancing butchery of the Iraqi extreamist!"

If I seem in a bad mood, jerks like you put me there.

 

[bigun]

lol Insult the president all you want.

Sorry Inversion, I get the feeling you think one of my replies was aimed at you, it wasn't at all, in fact it was a reply to your prievous comment in support of it.

 

[bigun]

"Oh! Lets spend a month dissing 4 US soldiers that abused a few Iraqi PRISONERS (read, the guys trying to kill us), and ignore the ambush attacks, the beheadings, the dragging through the streets dancing butchery of the Iraqi extreamist!"

Sorry man but how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you use the word 'dissing' in a political debate?

 

[SFLUFAN]

I'm a registered Republican and ex-US Army officer who will not be voting for George Bush in November - I'll be voting for JFK (lol..I like saying that) albeit very reluctantly.

GWB is not a "true" conservative in the mold that I am. I belong to the Dwight Eisenhower/Barry Goldwater/Ronald Reagan mold of conservatism - not this "neo-con" nonsense that has taken over the White House and the civilian leadership of the Pentagon. True conservatives DO NOT engage in reckless, foolhardy wars without an exit strategy or an alliance of our friends, true conservatives DO NOT amend the Constitution for something as trivial as homosexual marriage, and true conservatives DO NOT bankrupt the country by signing every piece of spending legislation that passes their desk. It's time for pragmatists and moderates like John McCain, Dick Lugar, and others to reclaim the Republican party from these blasted neo-con idealists. In fact, Powell's chief of staff compared Paul Wolfowitz, the leader of this neo-con ring to Vladimir Lenin.

On a personal note, I especially loathe the civilian leadership of the Pentagon for what they've done to my beloved Army. They have pushed it to the breaking point - the Army is hopelessly overextended and already cracks are beginning to form in it. Senior uniformed leaders are exasperated with Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz because they just seem to not give a damn for the opinion of their generals - this is Vietnam Redux.

Thankfully, there are voices out there who are actively opposing this degradation - and I'm not speaking of that blowhard Mike Moore. Former USMC General Anthony Zinni, hardly a bleeding heart, has been openly blasting this group for a couple of years now. Next week, a new book written by him and Tom Clancy called "Battle Ready" will be on the shelves here in the US and will further reveal the Iraq fiasco for what it is.

I'm sorry about the length of this post - but I feel I had to say these things. I love my country, I love my military, I am a patriot, I am proud to be Republican and will gladly give my life again if I had to. But a change is needed both in my party and in my nation and I will be sure that when I hold my nose and cast my vote for JFK in November that I would at least tried to make some difference.

God Bless America
God Bless All Those Who Do Good In This World
God Bless Valve...and HURRY UP ON GIVING US HALF LIFE 2 ALREADY DAMNIT!!!!!

 

[A2597]

because, bigun, it was the proper verb for what people are doing.

and for the record, attacking someone elses spelling/wording is a sign of having no other offence to rebuke their claims. It's a last resort. just a FYI.

 

[clarky003]

yes maybe Gordon will save the day? , nice to hear that SFLUFAN. we should be fighting for whats good, not what keeps the cash in the pocket, or on claims that werent certified from the start. I dont even believe that where still fighting each other, it might be alright if we all helped toward bigger things, (Id like to see less of the small minded inter human wars myself, theres really just no need for it anymore, its stunting our progress as a race.. if we all actually just got along and helped each other ? Brothers...)

 

[A2597]

SFLUFan, good post. And good points overall, though I beg to differ on one issue.

I do not think this is veitnam redux. Veitnam was run by politicians, unless you know something I don't, Iraq is being run by the generals, and bush is giving them whatever they request. (Perhaps too much at times...).

hmm...anyone up for starting a revolution? The democratic party is forgetting what it sttod for, and currently is acting like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum and willing to do anything to get the white house back, the republican party is full of people unwilling to make a stand...I say we throw a revolution, toss both parties out the window, and try to do things the was the founding fathers wanted them done. No parties, and a nation FOR the people, OF the people. Not for the politicians, of the politicians.

 

[clarky003]

id be up for atleast a push on a revolution, might be fun,, seeing what the governments can do when its benifactors dont like being lied to anymore, or manipulated... because thats how I feel, and I think they think we wouldnt do it because of the economic modern day structure that weve been born into,, if we did . it would certainly suprise them because I know for a fact that they think were all 'under control' with our heirarchy of society,, maybe when it all breaks down one day, it'll be time to strike. .

 

[SFLUFAN]

Actually I beg to differ with you A2597 on the Iraq situation.

The problem is that Bush is NOT listening to his generals - on the contrary, he has just about done everything contrary to their original advice and instead listened to Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz who have shown an utter disdain for the advice of the generals.

Let me give you an example. For the original invasion of Iraq, General Tommy Franks (the CINC of Centcom) requested 350,000 troops for both the invasion and the subsequent occupation because they knew that a large number would be needed for the pacification of Iraq. Bush and Rumsfeld told him to do it with 80,000. Only when Franks threatened to resign did they up the number to the paltry 135,000 that are in Iraq now. In fact, one US general by the name Shenskei openly admitted that more troops were needed in testimony before Congress and Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld in essence called him an idiot publicly and thus, forced him to resign.

The heart of the problem is that Bush/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz have been reluctant to give the military anything they want. At one point, the Joint Chiefs of Staff made an end-run around Rumsfeld and went to Powell, a former general, with their requests. The problem with the Iraq situation is that a bunch of chicken hawk civilian politicians are running it - not the uniformed military.

I'm still quite close to uniformed officers in the Pentagon and I hear the scuttlebutt around the place. And these problems between the civilians in the Pentagon and the military were recently reported in the Washington Post.

 

[clarky003]

wow, nice insider info .. Me thinks Rumsfeld is a pretty nasty piece of work anyway.

 

[A2597]

thanks for that extra info mate.

Idle curiosity, who wants a third choice for president? LOL

 

[Tr0n]

hmm...anyone up for starting a revolution? The democratic party is forgetting what it sttod for, and currently is acting like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum and willing to do anything to get the white house back, the republican party is full of people unwilling to make a stand...I say we throw a revolution, toss both parties out the window, and try to do things the was the founding fathers wanted them done. No parties, and a nation FOR the people, OF the people. Not for the politicians, of the politicians.

Hell yea...Viva La Revolution!!!!My eyes are starting to change about this country.America doesn't represent what it use to like it did back during the American Revolutionary War or WW2.It makes me sad seeing what this country is becoming....

 

[clarky003]

me too, I want you guys in the US to be happy and not miserable because of some oil company's grip on the populace and the money and power hungry tirents controlling the government, im so voting Tony Blair out next election.

 

[Korgoth]

Sorry Inversion, I get the feeling you think one of my replies was aimed at you, it wasn't at all, in fact it was a reply to your prievous comment in support of it.

Nah man, thats not what I meant... You said something about foreign people talking bad about the government and regular Americans taking that as a direct insult to them. I was saying, you can call bush a monkey all you want, i'll agree with you, I won't assume that because you dislike my government that you dislike me or all other Americans.
I do get upset when people make fun of American people. Stereotyping us as all fat idiots, who love to kill/shoot their guns, and drive big honkin' SUVs all day. Thats racism to me, especially since only one of the three applies to me
I am pretty much agree with all you've said in this thread (although I don't think I've read it all) Just remember, there are a lot, and I mean A LOT of blind patriots in this country (I.E. the nascar dads of the deep south, in which I happen to live ;( to whom bush is targeting for his re-election campaign ) but not everyone here in America is so quick to throw caution to the wind and trust fully in what the government spoon feeds them.

 

[Korgoth]

I'm a registered Republican and ex-US Army officer who will not be voting for George Bush in November - I'll be voting for JFK (lol..I like saying that) albeit very reluctantly.

GWB is not a "true" conservative in the mold that I am. I belong to the Dwight Eisenhower/Barry Goldwater/Ronald Reagan mold of conservatism - not this "neo-con" nonsense that has taken over the White House and the civilian leadership of the Pentagon. True conservatives DO NOT engage in reckless, foolhardy wars without an exit strategy or an alliance of our friends, true conservatives DO NOT amend the Constitution for something as trivial as homosexual marriage, and true conservatives DO NOT bankrupt the country by signing every piece of spending legislation that passes their desk. It's time for pragmatists and moderates like John McCain, Dick Lugar, and others to reclaim the Republican party from these blasted neo-con idealists. In fact, Powell's chief of staff compared Paul Wolfowitz, the leader of this neo-con ring to Vladimir Lenin.

Yeah! Thats one of the things that irks me most about this administration... They've somehow secretly switched roles, and are still saying the contrary. What I mean is, Democrats are supposed to be big government (big brother) right, but GWB and his administration have issued some of the most drastic overhauls of government (dept. of homeland security) written up some of the most drastic (read intrusive) laws (patriot act I & II) and even ammended the constitution for crying out loud! Yet he uses the democrat=big brother argument in his political campaign.. And if what I've just pointed out doesn't look, smell, and taste like big government-big brother, then my reality must be skewed!

(on a side note, anyone care to debate the patriot acts? )
**OH, and Bigun, please read one page back!**

 

[bigun]

GWB is not a "true" conservative in the mold that I am. I belong to the Dwight Eisenhower/Barry Goldwater/Ronald Reagan mold of conservatism - not this "neo-con" nonsense that has taken over the White House and the civilian leadership of the Pentagon.

The same Barry Goldwater that believed a pre-emptive Nuclear strike on the USSR was right ('in your heart you know its right' - 'in your guts you know its nuts')? The same Ronald Reagan that laid the Afghanistan trap? Pfft. They are all the same - Barry Goldwater is one of the most evil men in History and God be praised that he didn't get into office, he would have turned America into a Jewish state (if it isn't already one).

 

[bigun]

I do not think this is veitnam redux. Veitnam was run by politicians, unless you know something I don't, Iraq is being run by the generals, and bush is giving them whatever they request. (Perhaps too much at times...).

Isn't it better when you have a balancing force, in Vietnam's case, the politicians that would not allow the general's everything they wanted, it was the equilibrium that was lost in Iraq, and as a result the Generals can use whatever heavy handed tactics they like.

 

[Korgoth]

Well we might as well be a jewish state, it would save us the trouble of researching and formulating conspiracy theories. For the life of me I can not figure out why we kiss so much Israeli ass, if they commit a crime they should be punished.
And thats where the problem lies I guess... In order for us to admit Israel has done wrong, we would have to fess up and answer a lot of questions ourselves. Which is sad really, this cycle will continue until well after all of us here are dead and gone. Its going to be an interesting couple of years I can tell you that. Come November Americas future will be laid out... I can't wait to see what happens.

 

[bigun]

but not everyone here in America is so quick to throw caution to the wind and trust fully in what the government spoon feeds them.

I totally agree, however because these voices are not part of the mass media they do not get as much recognition - which relates back to my earlier point about commercial media and the bias surrounding it.

I mean there will always be bias in media, lets get that straight, but if you made a good public service broadcaster, like we have in England with the BBC and is accountable to politicians and the public, or even just make a regulatory body that regulated the privately owned TV Companies then the news would be a lot less bias than it currently is.

 

[bigun]

For the life of me I can not figure out why we kiss so much Israeli ass, if they commit a crime they should be punished.

Two reasons:
1) Israel is a American allied force based in the Mid.-East
2) The Jewish lobbys have immense power, my dad is spokesperson for the Greek Cypriot lobby in this country and he has met some of the members of Jewish lobbys - very, very powerful.

I mean if America did stop supporting Israel then Israel would be much less heavy handed, they would realise that they did not have that immense superpower backing them up and porbably would withdraw from all settlements - in response there would be no more attacks, that I can guarantee, and half of America's foreign problems would dissapear instantly.

 

[A2597]

bigun, if isreal backed down, Isreal would be destroyed by an attack by every islamic nation out there. Those bad feelings go all the way back to Abraham.

 

[bigun]

Oh forget it, Im not going to explain something to someone who has been indoctrinited with Zionist viewpoints for the whole of his life.
Israel is in breach of 16 UN resolutions, openly falunts International law and have commited War Crimes, they should therefore be held accountable as any other nation should, unfortunately the World isn't fair.

 

[The Mullinator]

Oh forget it, Im not going to explain something to someone who has been indoctrinited with Zionist viewpoints for the whole of his life.
Israel is in breach of 16 UN resolutions, openly falunts International law and have commited War Crimes, they should therefore be held accountable as any other nation should, unfortunately the World isn't fair.

Yes because they disagree with you then automatically they have been brain-washed with "Zionist viewpoints". I hear people making that argument all the time and its one of the stupidist things I have ever heard.

What if your the one who has been brain-washed with "anti-Israel view points"? It is just as likely you know.

 

[bigun]

If I truly was brain-washed with Anti-Israel sentiment then I wouldn't have Jewish friends.
I think, like most other Israel supporters you are one of those who wishes to place the 'anti-semite' tag on anyone who doesn't agree with Zionism in its purest form, and that is fundamentally racist.
Was it not the Jews that called for all races who were not Jewish to leave Jerusalem in the early 50's? This included Muslims, Hindus and Christians. Dont think that Zionists are somehow affiliated in a good way with your own brand of neo-conservative-christianity, because they are just as the groups you define as 'terrorists', unfortunately its people like you that drag the whole American nation down, you make America from the outside appear like almost a Jewish State.
Stop thinking that you know it all simply because 'You saw it on FOX News'.

 

[bigun]

well, since no matter what we do is going to get people mad at us anyway...

all in favor of just nuking the entire middle east and ridding the problem at the source?


no more terrorist, no more middle east turmoil, no more pricks arguing the horrors of the US over a nation that is trying to kill everyone not from the middle east with the exact same viewpoint, no more justification....


tell you what, YOU go up to some random Iraqi, tell them you want to help out, and see what happens. ten to one you get your head hacked off with a butter knife.

I think that comment was alot more bias and racist than anything I have made, unusual therefore that this person has not been banned and Nickzer was, even though Nickzer did not make any comment comparable to 'Nuking the Middle-East', just shows how acceptable Arab racism is in America these days.

 

[The Mullinator]

If I truly was brain-washed with Anti-Israel sentiment then I wouldn't have Jewish friends.
I think, like most other Israel supporters you are one of those who wishes to place the 'anti-semite' tag on anyone who doesn't agree with Zionism in its purest form, and that is fundamentally racist.
Was it not the Jews that called for all races who were not Jewish to leave Jerusalem in the early 50's? This included Muslims, Hindus and Christians. Dont think that Zionists are somehow affiliated in a good way with your own brand of neo-conservative-christianity, because they are just as the groups you define as 'terrorists', unfortunately its people like you that drag the whole American nation down, you make America from the outside appear like almost a Jewish State.
Stop thinking that you know it all simply because 'You saw it on FOX News'.

First off I am Canadian, second of all I didn't say "anti-Jew" I said "anti-Israel" I know of many Jews who are against Israels policies. Third I am an atheist, so I am not a "neo-conservative-christian". Finally I am not saying I disagree with any previous points you made, I am just disagreeing with your idea that we have been brain-washed.

Don't make so many assumptions.

 

[bigun]

I point you to the post above your own sir, to prove that I am less bias and less racist.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I think that comment was alot more bias and racist than anything I have made, unusual therefore that this person has not been banned and Nickzer was, even though Nickzer did not make any comment comparable to 'Nuking the Middle-East', just shows how acceptable Arab racism is in America these days.

Nickzer did other things too. We're not an american site. Admittedly that was a terrible post.

 

[The Mullinator]

I point you to the post above your own sir, to prove that I am less bias and less racist.

I never said you were more bias, or more racist. I was simply disagreeing with what you said about the people you were arguing with being brain-washed.

 

[bigun]

I'm sure being brain-washed has an effect on what bias' you show towards different causes.

 

[The Mullinator]

I'm sure being brain-washed has an effect on what bias' you show towards different causes.

People can disagree depending on what situation they are in, what they may have seen, their own personality. They can make decisions based on those factors, their opinions are not necessarily dictated by what the media or what the government tells them. The people who disagree with you have simply seen different things from different angles, they have different personalities, and they may be of different social standings. All of those factors dictate what someones opinion on a subject is. If they disagree with you then its likely that one or more of those factors is different for them. Brain-washing is where you are told what to believe, you are forced to believe, don't assume that that is what has happened to someone if they disagree with you.

 

[ComradeBadger]

bigun and anyone else, regardless of side, cease flaming.

No-one is brainwashed.

 

[bigun]

Brain washing can also be subtle - like the examples of corporate media I have mentioned, which Republicans honestly believe that there is any other option than complete Laissez Faire in America? Hence the reason they criticise Europe for being 'cradle-to-grave' states simply based upon the fact they have been indoctrinated by the media that inidivdualism and prosperity go hand in hand while mutual responsibility has no place in a free system.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

i'm no fan of israel either, but all this "brain-washing" talk makes you sound like a troll bigun. the mullinators's above post is entirely correct. you should limit the silly name-calling to moderators.