An Interesting Bit of Philosophy

[KillCodyDead]

I leave for a day and my topic turns into a religious debate. Ah well, it was expected.

For those of you that needed an explanation of the metaphor: we are captive to the world, and obstacles stand directly in front of us. The periods of unconsciousness represent time without obstacles, and the waking is spotting yet another boundary to overcome. We will continue overcoming until one day we are dead, and we are out of this world, on the other side of the wall. At least, that's what I took it to be.

Back to the original question: how far is too far when it comes to what is right?

 

[Cole]

Come now, you don't have to call me names for what I believe. It's that you "logical" thinkers are just as "illogical" as you claim us Christians to be. It takes just as much faith to believe in what you believe in as it does for us to believe in what we believe in. The only difference is, we are right and there is a God.

If you want to deny Jesus in your heart and pay the price that is your decision. However, to call me stupid for being smart enough to choose the path to salvation doesn't seem very reasonable. I can only pray that one day you see the light, and I will be praying for everyone on this forum every night in hopes that it will happen. You just have to lift the veil of ignorance.

You don't even follow Jesus. So don't even start shit about having him in your heart. Jesus said you have to follow the old laws and the news laws. Go read the old testament and tell me how well you have followed them.

Second, give me a reason to believe in your god.

The question goes,
"Why should I believe in your god and practice your religion instead of a different god(s) or a different religion?"

Why should I follow christianity instead of hinduism? Because,

I don't belive in your god and don't practice your faith, for the same reason you don't follow any other god and don't practice any other faiths

All religions tell me that they are right, but have no facts and only faith to back yourself up. But I can have as much faith as I want that if a nuke hits me, explodes, that I will survive and be perfectly fine. Logic says different and I'd go with logic on this one.


Until you can give me a reason and convince me that your god exists, I will not believe. I do not have to prove that your god doesn't exist. Just like I don't have to disprove there is a magical chinese teapot revolving around the earth, and when rubbed a magic geanie will come out and smack the earth around with his penis; It is assumed false until proven true. If you ask me to believe in your god, I am going to assume your wrong until you can show me in some way that your right.

 

[Adabiviak]

what we perceive to be reality is a picture that is contaminated by ignorance, emotion, instinct. for a human being to experience truth, all these obstacles would have to be removed, which is impossible.

ultimately the truth is irrelevant, belief is all that counts.

having said this - pressure, you're an idiot.

Thanks, Victor, I get it now, but I'm still lost on the original post. Can you give an example of someone's thoughts who might realistically be in that position?

For the others - if the subject of religion was something that could be definitively decided in an online forum, it would have been done a long time ago in a forum far far away. Now it's just a nuisance. I suggest a new forum called "The Bike Rack" and whenever two people want to tango (on any subject that's not germane to the original topic), they can call each other out, meet at the bike rack, and go to town (leaving the original topic on track). Even better would be to have an impartial moderator there to call the shots/fouls (like the ref at a sparring match). "Apophasis! Opponent gets a free shot." "Factual rebuttal! 2-point takedown." "Deductive Fallacy - steeerrrrike three!" The moderator would have to curb jeers from the sidelines, which would involve a lot of attention on his or her part, but that would be hilarious, fun, and beneficial. I'm only marginally serious, because this would require a lot of manpower to do well, but the contestants could spar for bans - loser's out for a month. Maybe call it "Thunderforum" - two posters enter, one poster leaves? The moderator who arranges these might consider changing his name to 'Centurion' to give the forum an extra-grimy image.

 

[victor]

"A man whose mind feels that it is captive would prefer to blind himself to the fact. But if he hates falsehood, he will not do so; and in that case he will have to suffer a lot. He will beat his head against the wall until he faints. He will come to again and look with terror at the wall, until one day he begins afresh to beat his head against it; and once again he will faint. And so on endlessly and without hope.

One day he will wake up on the other side of the wall."

it's a metaphor for life. man is captive in his body, trapped by the walls of his insignificance, ignorance and meaninglessness. he can either choose to blind himself by believing in something, or he can try to accept the absolute truth. which is futile. the only day he may know the truth is when he transcends the "walls", which incidentally is also the day he dies.


but yeah, it means whatever you want it to mean.

 

[Pressure]

You don't even follow Jesus. So don't even start shit about having him in your heart. Jesus said you have to follow the old laws and the news laws. Go read the old testament and tell me how well you have followed them.

Second, give me a reason to believe in your god.

The question goes,
"Why should I believe in your god and practice your religion instead of a different god(s) or a different religion?"

Why should I follow christianity instead of hinduism? Because,

I don't belive in your god and don't practice your faith, for the same reason you don't follow any other god and don't practice any other faiths

All religions tell me that they are right, but have no facts and only faith to back yourself up. But I can have as much faith as I want that if a nuke hits me, explodes, that I will survive and be perfectly fine. Logic says different and I'd go with logic on this one.


Until you can give me a reason and convince me that your god exists, I will not believe. I do not have to prove that your god doesn't exist. Just like I don't have to disprove there is a magical chinese teapot revolving around the earth, and when rubbed a magic geanie will come out and smack the earth around with his penis; It is assumed false until proven true. If you ask me to believe in your god, I am going to assume your wrong until you can show me in some way that your right.

You have to remember not even Jesus followed all the rules of the old testament because He came to change the way we look at things and to teach us. You have to be able to accept Jesus into your heart and follow His teachings and only then can you enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Now you ask me to give you a reason to believe in the Christian God, the one and only true God, and I can give you one good reason: Jesus. God actually bore himself into flesh and bone to come teach us what he wanted. He came to Earth born from a virgin mother and DIED for our sins. He then resurrected three days later and was seated at the right hand of the Father. How can you deny something like a person? Doesn't it seem logical that a person who has existed and performed miracles is obviously the son of God? What other religions have had their Gods really come to Earth in flesh and bone and then sacrifice themselves for our sins?

As for God existing lets look at it this way. Imagine you're on a desert island and you're all alone. Now after a long time you find a watch on this island. It must have washed up on shore a while ago and had gotten buried in the sand. You look at it and you take it apart and realize that if every cog and spring isn't exactly where it is that the watch will not work. You then deduct that this watch had to have had a designer. It is so perfect and all the parts are put in there specifically so the watch will function. It has a designer. Humans too are just like watches, because we are way to complex to have just happened by random chance. Look at how our body works and how fine tuned everything is and you'll see that we too have a designer. Just like a watch cannot spawn randomly from nature, neither can a human.

 

[Cole]

Now you ask me to give you a reason to believe in the Christian God, the one and only true God, and I can give you one good reason: Jesus. God actually bore himself into flesh and bone to come teach us what he wanted. He came to Earth born from a virgin mother and DIED for our sins. He then resurrected three days later and was seated at the right hand of the Father. How can you deny something like a person? Doesn't it seem logical that a person who has existed and performed miracles is obviously the son of God? What other religions have had their Gods really come to Earth in flesh and bone and then sacrifice themselves for our sins?

A man came up to me today and told me two gods. Goshu And Flasu. Both of these gods came down to earth and both sacrificed themselves for everyone sins. And if I believe in them and no other god then I will live in paradise when I die. The religion is called "Yash"

Well in Yash two gods sacrificed themselves for my sins compared to your religions one. So why should I believe in yours again?

As for God existing lets look at it this way. Imagine you're on a desert island and you're all alone. Now after a long time you find a watch on this island. It must have washed up on shore a while ago and had gotten buried in the sand. You look at it and you take it apart and realize that if every cog and spring isn't exactly where it is that the watch will not work. You then deduct that this watch had to have had a designer. It is so perfect and all the parts are put in there specifically so the watch will function. It has a designer. Humans too are just like watches, because we are way to complex to have just happened by random chance. Look at how our body works and how fine tuned everything is and you'll see that we too have a designer. Just like a watch cannot spawn randomly from nature, neither can a human.

If god can "just be here" why can't the watch?

You have to remember not even Jesus followed all the rules of the old testament because He came to change the way we look at things and to teach us. You have to be able to accept Jesus into your heart and follow His teachings and only then can you enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Who cares if Jesus didn't follow the old testament? "Do as I say, not as I do". His teachings say you have to follow the old and new testament and if you don't you wont enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Adabiviak]

"A man whose mind feels that it is captive would prefer to blind himself to the fact. But if he hates falsehood, he will not do so; and in that case he will have to suffer a lot. He will beat his head against the wall until he faints. He will come to again and look with terror at the wall, until one day he begins afresh to beat his head against it; and once again he will faint. And so on endlessly and without hope.

One day he will wake up on the other side of the wall."

it's a metaphor for life. man is captive in his body, trapped by the walls of his insignificance, ignorance and meaninglessness. he can either choose to blind himself by believing in something, or he can try to accept the absolute truth. which is futile. the only day he may know the truth is when he transcends the "walls", which incidentally is also the day he dies.


but yeah, it means whatever you want it to mean.

Ah! okay, thanks again. That is interesting, a different point of view than my own for sure. If I have this right, I don't think that it's futile nor impossible to search for the absolute truth, and this may be one of the core differences between the religious-minded and the, eh, not: the idea that one may never know the absolute truth until it's presented to them after they die vs. the idea that one can know the absolute truth, the search for which we're still in the process of, and are constantly, slowly, making progress. If you'll allow another, simpler metaphor, the faith-minded man standing in one place stating that 'the truth is out there and I'm trapped in here' vs. the reason-minded man building a better pair of binoculars and hiking boots and going to see if the first guy is right or wrong.

 

[Geogaddi]

You have to remember not even Jesus followed all the rules of the old testament because He came to change the way we look at things and to teach us. You have to be able to accept Jesus into your heart and follow His teachings and only then can you enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Now you ask me to give you a reason to believe in the Christian God, the one and only true God, and I can give you one good reason: Jesus. God actually bore himself into flesh and bone to come teach us what he wanted. He came to Earth born from a virgin mother and DIED for our sins. He then resurrected three days later and was seated at the right hand of the Father. How can you deny something like a person? Doesn't it seem logical that a person who has existed and performed miracles is obviously the son of God? What other religions have had their Gods really come to Earth in flesh and bone and then sacrifice themselves for our sins?

As for God existing lets look at it this way. Imagine you're on a desert island and you're all alone. Now after a long time you find a watch on this island. It must have washed up on shore a while ago and had gotten buried in the sand. You look at it and you take it apart and realize that if every cog and spring isn't exactly where it is that the watch will not work. You then deduct that this watch had to have had a designer. It is so perfect and all the parts are put in there specifically so the watch will function. It has a designer. Humans too are just like watches, because we are way to complex to have just happened by random chance. Look at how our body works and how fine tuned everything is and you'll see that we too have a designer. Just like a watch cannot spawn randomly from nature, neither can a human.

Jesus, yes, I'm sure we're all familiar with the stories, but what evidence to you have to prove that he was anything more than a man with excellent PR? Chrisitanity is not the first to make such claims, and it bears a striking resemblance to the ancient Persian myth of Zoroaster, which was thousands of years before Jesus.

As for the watch, the assumption that all complex things must have a designer is a false one. Evolution is not not NOT random. It's a series of tiny adjustments over time. It's like looking at a 3000 foot cliff and saying it's impossible to climb, but when you walk behind the cliff you find a gradual slope up to the peak. Same principle.

 

[victor]

the idea of "truth" differs between religion and science. in science, it represents the absolute nature of things, while in religion "truth" is a vehicle for feelings of righteousness and purpose.


pressure: dude, stop arguing. you can't argue faith versus science, the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Adabiviak]

Well said, victor. :cheers:

edit - where did you come across that, anyway?

 

[victor]

life

 

[Marinmald]

nice post victor. as for you pressure, technically, there is a small chance that a watch would just appear, albeit a very tiny chance, it is possible. it's called chaos, perhaps you have heard of it, it does some pretty random stuff. like its possible for a tornado to go through a junk yard and construct a perfect working boeing 747, highly unlikely, but possible. just like if you told me that there was no way that I could lift that boulder (imagine a very big rock, its not that hard, after all, you imagine that you will be able to convert me), I would give you the finger, lift that boulder, then proceed to drop it on you.

 

[Pressure]

A man came up to me today and told me two gods. Goshu And Flasu. Both of these gods came down to earth and both sacrificed themselves for everyone sins. And if I believe in them and no other god then I will live in paradise when I die. The religion is called "Yash"

Well in Yash two gods sacrificed themselves for my sins compared to your religions one. So why should I believe in yours again?


If god can "just be here" why can't the watch?


Who cares if Jesus didn't follow the old testament? "Do as I say, not as I do". His teachings say you have to follow the old and new testament and if you don't you wont enter the kingdom of heaven.

Interesting, I've never heard of these men. Surely if they were real then that "God" would have let everyone know, such as God let everyone know about Jesus. You can't really compare these made up men with the real deal, because you made them up yourself. Jesus fulfilled prophecies and was announced by God Himself by sending angel messengers and having the North Star appear in the sky when Jesus was born. The three kings then rode to greet the messiah and, well, the rest I'm sure you know.

I'm getting a feeling you're not quite familiar with Jesus' teachings, however. You should pick up your New Testament and actually give it a read. I'm sure you'll come out of it a better and more moral man. All you have to do is take that first step and find God.

@Geogaddi

Proof? The viewing of His miracles by thousands isn't enough for you? The difference between Christianity and other religions is that what is written in the Bible actually happened! All those other books are a bunch of myth, we however have personal accounts of Jesus and the viewing of what he has done with written accounts.

Evolution, by your definition, is random. You say it's a series of tiny adjustments, but that begs the question, "How do these adjustments appear?" The answer is randomly. It's completely random. As for your cliff example, it's interesting but wrong. The complexity of such things are irreducible. What good is half an elbow? What good is one tenth of a foot? What good is a third of a wing? Without these things being whole they are completely useless, thus irreducible. The parts have to be perfectly designed and put together, such as the watch, to be of any use.

@victor

There is only one universal truth. While science try "to find" the truth, religion has had it all along. Science has cast a blind eye of ignorance towards the truth, but all their efforts are in vain. They're working towards something that was right in front of them the whole time and they could have easily just taken it. All they had to do was accept Jesus.

nice post victor. as for you pressure, technically, there is a small chance that a watch would just appear, albeit a very tiny chance, it is possible. it's called chaos, perhaps you have heard of it, it does some pretty random stuff. like its possible for a tornado to go through a junk yard and construct a perfect working boeing 747, highly unlikely, but possible. just like if you told me that there was no way that I could lift that boulder (imagine a very big rock, its not that hard, after all, you imagine that you will be able to convert me), I would give you the finger, lift that boulder, then proceed to drop it on you.

I just saw this right after I posted. If anything, you just help proved my points. Without God such a thing as life just happening is IMPOSSIBLE! You could wait a billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years and you still wouldn't get life. There has to be a creator, a first cause and that is God. The chance of it happening otherwise is, as stated before, impossible.

 

[Marinmald]

I just saw this right after I posted. If anything, you just help proved my points. Without God such a thing as life just happening is IMPOSSIBLE! You could wait a billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years and you still wouldn't get life. There has to be a creator, a first cause and that is God. The chance of it happening otherwise is, as stated before, impossible.

well since your using my post.....what you are telling us is that you believe in chaos and that we are a product of a random chance of lightening stricking a puddle of chemicals that caused them to react in a way that made them form bonds with each other. then those molecules joined together to form strands and those strands formed a more complex structure. and those complex structures formed cells and those cells used the most readily available and abundent source as fuel to continue their existence. and then it just kinda escalated from there?

edit: I feel like a sandwich.

 

[victor]

pressure: you missed the point. as for ignorance, to believe that you're less ignorant than everyone else is pretty ignorant in itself.

-edit- i'd like to point out the fact that christianity has had to reform their teachings based on scientific discovery in the past

e.g. earth as center of universe.

 

[Marinmald]

you've missed my point. as for ignorance, to believe that you're less ignorant than everyone else is pretty ignorant in itself.

wait, who missed it? screw it, I am going to sleep, gotta make the most of my time off with my girl.

 

[Cole]

Interesting, I've never heard of these men. Surely if they were real then that "God" would have let everyone know, such as God let everyone know about Jesus. You can't really compare these made up men with the real deal, because you made them up yourself. Jesus fulfilled prophecies and was announced by God Himself by sending angel messengers and having the North Star appear in the sky when Jesus was born. The three kings then rode to greet the messiah and, well, the rest I'm sure you know.

I'm getting a feeling you're not quite familiar with Jesus' teachings, however. You should pick up your New Testament and actually give it a read. I'm sure you'll come out of it a better and more moral man. All you have to do is take that first step and find God.

They did let everyone know.

I know the New Testament. Maybe you should go read the old testament and follow the rules, otherwise in your own religion your going to hell.

What you fail to understand it this, You both keep telling me stuff about your gods and what they did. However, what you fail to provide evidence for is that those events happened.

Proof? The viewing of His miracles by thousands isn't enough for you? The difference between Christianity and other religions is that what is written in the Bible actually happened! All those other books are a bunch of myth, we however have personal accounts of Jesus and the viewing of what he has done with written accounts.

Did you actually witness these events? I can go write a book of my own personal events in my perspective and say that milions of people watched these events happened and these events could be all magical and stuff..... and I could write it drunk.
Just because something is written down in a book, doesn't make it true.

I am asking for evidence, can you provide me with evidence?

Evolution, by your definition, is random. You say it's a series of tiny adjustments, but that begs the question, "How do these adjustments appear?" The answer is randomly. It's completely random. As for your cliff example, it's interesting but wrong. The complexity of such things are irreducible. What good is half an elbow? What good is one tenth of a foot? What good is a third of a wing? Without these things being whole they are completely useless, thus irreducible. The parts have to be perfectly designed and put together, such as the watch, to be of any use.

Not random. They appear for survival purposes.

There is only one universal truth. While science try "to find" the truth, religion has had it all along. Science has cast a blind eye of ignorance towards the truth, but all their efforts are in vain. They're working towards something that was right in front of them the whole time and they could have easily just taken it. All they had to do was accept Jesus.

There is only one universal truth. While religion "thought it new" the truth, science was working to it all along. Religion has cast a blind eye of ignorance towards the truth, but all their efforts are in vain. They're working towards something that was right in front of them the whole time and they could have easily just taken it. All they had to do was accept Science.

Hey I can make up shit to!

I just saw this right after I posted. If anything, you just help proved my points. Without God such a thing as life just happening is IMPOSSIBLE! You could wait a billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years and you still wouldn't get life. There has to be a creator, a first cause and that is God. The chance of it happening otherwise is, as stated before, impossible.

No you wouldn't.
Tell me what is the difference between You and a Rock? Give me the differences uses atoms and chemical reactions. Because in truth you and that rock are both atoms, just You have a different structure of atoms. That's the only difference when you get down to it.



We are asking you to provide evidence that what happened in the bible does exist. A man could come in here say all the exact things you are but replace Bible with Quran, Jesus with Mohammad, and God with Allha. You are both claiming the exact same thing and that the other religion is wrong. Yet none of you can provide evidence. You don't even follow your damn religion correctly!


You probably believe the earth is 6,000 years old!

 

[CrazyHarij]

There is no advance, no progress.

Change, perhaps, but nothing is better, nothing is worse. Don't mistake maintenance for progress.

agreed

 

[Jintor]

I just saw this right after I posted. If anything, you just help proved my points. Without God such a thing as life just happening is IMPOSSIBLE! You could wait a billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years and you still wouldn't get life. There has to be a creator, a first cause and that is God. The chance of it happening otherwise is, as stated before, impossible.

Lol no. Million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

/EDIT Also, from the point of view of a puddle, the chances of a puddle existing at all, anywhere, in all of the universe and the world are very small, near impossible in fact, therefore there must be some sort of PUDDLE GOD, that CREATED THE PUDDLE, and laid down an invincible philosophy for all puddles to follow forever. Remember, this is the exact same logic as you are using.

/EDITEDIT

Evolution, by your definition, is random. You say it's a series of tiny adjustments, but that begs the question, "How do these adjustments appear?" The answer is randomly. It's completely random. As for your cliff example, it's interesting but wrong. The complexity of such things are irreducible. What good is half an elbow? What good is one tenth of a foot? What good is a third of a wing? Without these things being whole they are completely useless, thus irreducible. The parts have to be perfectly designed and put together, such as the watch, to be of any use.

Oh gods, the watch arguement. The what use is half an elbow.

Let me use the example of your one tenth of a foot. Well, firstly, you don't get half a foot. What you get is a sort of foot-like appendage that may or may not have a different function to a foot when it began, but as the species evolves, and these genes that give the species the 'tenth of a foot' are passed on in turn, then the foot develops. Now, the 'tenth of a foot' will only be passed on by those who survive to breed, yes?

So if the 'tenth of a foot' offers an evolutionary advantage in some form or another, it will continue to develop. If these further developments offer evolutionary advantage, then the owners of these features, and therefore genes, will survive to pass down these features. And so on and so forth.

You don't get half a leg. You get a leg, that is continually modified and added onto and form-shifted until it is what you recognize as a leg.

Ask with an example of an eye, why don't you.

 

[gowiththefl0w]

My question is this: is the pain of the beating always worth the reward

in my experience, even if it hurts to beat it, its always worth it.:thumbs:

 

[kirovman]

Get your mumbo jumbo out of here, Steve.

 

[Pressure]

No David, I will not get my "mumbo jumbo" out of here! Plus, I'd like to put in that it's not "mumbo jumbo", but the truth. These guys wanted a debate, and even though their arguments are weak I plan to see this through.

You're still pushing this argument of your made up Gods. You say you can go write a book but you won't, because what you're saying is a lie. You give these examples and say anyone can do it, but why aren't there millions of religions as popular as Christianity then? It's because thousands of people actually witnessed these events and spread the word, both written and vocal. You can't spread as wide as Christianity did without eye-witness accounts. You go ahead and write your book, but I can garuantee that it won't even get published. Just because I didn't witness these accounts personally doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Did you see Abraham Lincoln get shot? No? I guess it didn't happen then.

All you say is that it's not random, but where's that "proof" you scientific type boast so much about. All you say is, "No it's not!" Show me how it isn't random then. Tell me how these random mutations in your hoax of a "theory" aren't random. A mutation is an error in the genetic code. Therefore it generally causes more problems than good.

It's called a theory for a reason and that's because it's just that, a theory.

Dictionary.com defines theory as:

the?o?ry /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/
?noun, plural -ries.

1. guess or conjecture.

Evolution is only a "guess or conjecture" of science.

The difference between me and a rock is simple, I'm a living biological being and a rock is not. It's true everything is made up of atoms, which are God's building blocks. God made both me and the rock, but he made humans in his likeness. We are extremely well designed and complex beings.

Your example of a Puddle God is just ridiculous. You're only mocking your own theory on that one. "Duurrr, lightning struck a puddle and here we are!" Yay evolution! Right? Wrong! God created us, and yes I believe it was 6000 years ago. Your theory is just stupid, in my opinion.

Your foot example proves nothing. Let's just use a wing as better visualization. Now, let's talk about a bat. God created bats to work perfectly and thus all their body parts work perfectly for the way they live. Now, their wings are a complex structure and that complexity is irreducible. Just like the watch, if anything was out of place it wouldn't function. Now lets imagine that your "evolution" is actually true, a previous version of the bat only had half a wing. Now the bat can't fly because the wing isn't functional anymore. Thus the bat can't catch insect and it would starve to death. It needs it's full wing to live, or else it just wouldn't work. It's always had it's wings the way they are and it's clear that it was made by a designer.

Here, what about these arguments for creation using mathematics:

You know the formula, m over nought equals infinity, m being any positive number? Well, why not reduce the equation to a simpler form by multiplying both sides by nought. In which case you have m equals infinity times nought. That is to say that a postive number is the product of zero and infinity. Doesn't that demonstrate the creation of the universe by an infinite power out of nothing?

What about this?

(a + b^n)/n = x, therefore God exists!

Huh?

In reality, the proof is all around. Everything about live and Earth is perfect, even down to natural laws! The size and shape of Earth's orbit is perfect for life. If it were any closer to the sun, it would burn up, and if it were any farther away, it would freeze. Life could not exist on Earth in these cases. Gravity is perfect. If it were any stronger, the universe would have collapsted into the sun. If it were any weaker, everything would be moving away from the sun too quickly, and formations of stars would never have been made.

 

[victor]

quite frankly, you're all idiots for arguing with this guy. just drop it.

 

[Pressure]

I'm with that guy! Just give up.

 

[victor]

pressure, if people like you were taken seriously, we'd still be in the dark ages. keep it up though, it's pretty amusing.

 

[Pressure]

I disagree, we'd be in an age of enlightenment. Science is the bane of humanity and morality.

 

[victor]

science is the bane of morality only in that it reflects human nature.

 

[Pressure]

This is why we need Christianity. Christianty lays down a set of rules handed down by God Himself so that we may find moral guidance. You, however, want to destroy that. The destruction of morality, if you will.

 

[victor]

christians aren't the most moral of people, from what i've seen.

 

[Pressure]

I'd have to say that we are. We are the pillars of morality for society. We have God's written laws, which act as the perfect guide for peace. You have nothing to base yourself upon, which only leads to a downward spiral of sin and blasphemy. A world without Christianity wouldn't exist because it would be selfdestructive.

 

[victor]

to some extent, the bible's teachings could be interpreted as a guide for peace. but it's very vagueness has been used as justification for many wars, much oppression and injustice.

eg. crusades, inquisition, slavery, gender inequality.

it's a pity christians are nothing like jesus.

 

[Jintor]

No David, I will not get my "mumbo jumbo" out of here! Plus, I'd like to put in that it's not "mumbo jumbo", but the truth. These guys wanted a debate, and even though their arguments are weak I plan to see this through.

You're still pushing this argument of your made up Gods. You say you can go write a book but you won't, because what you're saying is a lie. You give these examples and say anyone can do it, but why aren't there millions of religions as popular as Christianity then? It's because thousands of people actually witnessed these events and spread the word, both written and vocal. You can't spread as wide as Christianity did without eye-witness accounts. You go ahead and write your book, but I can garuantee that it won't even get published. Just because I didn't witness these accounts personally doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Did you see Abraham Lincoln get shot? No? I guess it didn't happen then.

All you say is that it's not random, but where's that "proof" you scientific type boast so much about. All you say is, "No it's not!" Show me how it isn't random then. Tell me how these random mutations in your hoax of a "theory" aren't random. A mutation is an error in the genetic code. Therefore it generally causes more problems than good.

It's called a theory for a reason and that's because it's just that, a theory.

Dictionary.com defines theory as:

the?o?ry /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/
?noun, plural -ries.

1. guess or conjecture.

Evolution is only a "guess or conjecture" of science.

The difference between me and a rock is simple, I'm a living biological being and a rock is not. It's true everything is made up of atoms, which are God's building blocks. God made both me and the rock, but he made humans in his likeness. We are extremely well designed and complex beings.

Your example of a Puddle God is just ridiculous. You're only mocking your own theory on that one. "Duurrr, lightning struck a puddle and here we are!" Yay evolution! Right? Wrong! God created us, and yes I believe it was 6000 years ago. Your theory is just stupid, in my opinion.

Your foot example proves nothing. Let's just use a wing as better visualization. Now, let's talk about a bat. God created bats to work perfectly and thus all their body parts work perfectly for the way they live. Now, their wings are a complex structure and that complexity is irreducible. Just like the watch, if anything was out of place it wouldn't function. Now lets imagine that your "evolution" is actually true, a previous version of the bat only had half a wing. Now the bat can't fly because the wing isn't functional anymore. Thus the bat can't catch insect and it would starve to death. It needs it's full wing to live, or else it just wouldn't work. It's always had it's wings the way they are and it's clear that it was made by a designer.

Here, what about these arguments for creation using mathematics:

You know the formula, m over nought equals infinity, m being any positive number? Well, why not reduce the equation to a simpler form by multiplying both sides by nought. In which case you have m equals infinity times nought. That is to say that a postive number is the product of zero and infinity. Doesn't that demonstrate the creation of the universe by an infinite power out of nothing?

What about this?

(a + b^n)/n = x, therefore God exists!

Huh?

In reality, the proof is all around. Everything about live and Earth is perfect, even down to natural laws! The size and shape of Earth's orbit is perfect for life. If it were any closer to the sun, it would burn up, and if it were any farther away, it would freeze. Life could not exist on Earth in these cases. Gravity is perfect. If it were any stronger, the universe would have collapsted into the sun. If it were any weaker, everything would be moving away from the sun too quickly, and formations of stars would never have been made.

Ok, look.

YOU are saying: "Life is very very nearly impossible, therefore we must be created, because it's so closely impossible to NOT have been created."

Do you accept, or do you not accept, that there is that tiny, tiny possibility that life can come into being without some sort of creator?

/EDIT Looking at your posts again, I still have no idea if you're joking or not. It seems to stupid to be true.

/EDITEDIT And M/0 is not infinity, it's undefined. Thought you might like to know.

 

[victor]

"Theory of God, bitch" was better. change it back.

 

[Jintor]

Theory of God, bitch. :thumbs:

 

[staticprimer]

I'd have to say that we are. We are the pillars of morality for society. We have God's written laws, which act as the perfect guide for peace. You have nothing to base yourself upon, which only leads to a downward spiral of sin and blasphemy. A world without Christianity wouldn't exist because it would be selfdestructive.

What is sin? Sin is a purely objective ideal, created by the Christian mantra for anything that does not comply with its ideal. True that Christianity did provide a moral guidance for humans hundreds of years of years ago, however in a modern perspective they prove to be quite archaic. When the bible was created, some of the most important issues present in society was the protection of personal life and property. That is why we get the commandments such as 'Thou shalt not kill', 'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's X' (yes, in those times, women were considered property. We retain some of those laws today because they are conducive to a stable and unsuccessful society, while other more mundane rules that that are more mundane dogma fall (or should fall) by the wayside. Yes, society today would not be as stable as it would be without Christianity, but replace Christianity with any other religion with similar moral guidance and you would have a similar result, ignoring of course, wars that were fought in the name of Christianity.

 

[Pressure]

Do you mean a subjective ideal? I don't think objective works in the sense that you were trying to use it. It begs the question, "What is considered good and what is bad?" In reality the concept of good or bad is completely subjective to the person who is doing the percieving. However, God took mercy upon us and showed us how to be moral people. He laid down 10 commandments, but along with those are various other rules that are written within the Bible. Without these God given laws, we would have no basis for good or evil. Thus, we need God to show us the way. Just incase you don't know the commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of your God.
3. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
4. Honor Thy Mother and Father.
5. Thou shalt not murder.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.
10. thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house.

These are just the basics.

@jintor

First, you might want to get past your grade school math. I don't know have far into mathematics or mathematical theory you've delved into, but you might want to brush up. They tell you stuff like that in grade school to make concepts easier, once you get into the big leagues things get a bit more... complex.

As for your former question, no. I do not think it is possible for there to be life without a creator. It's merely impossible. Like I've been saying, everything in the Universe shows signs of intellegent design.

 

[Sulkdodds]

God is dead. I killed him. I raped his body and left him in a cavern to be eaten by shit-covered gila monsters.

How about that?

Bet you can't prove I didn't.

 

[Jintor]

@jintor

First, you might want to get past your grade school math. I don't know have far into mathematics or mathematical theory you've delved into, but you might want to brush up. They tell you stuff like that in grade school to make concepts easier, once you get into the big leagues things get a bit more... complex.

As for your former question, no. I do not think it is possible for there to be life without a creator. It's merely impossible. Like I've been saying, everything in the Universe shows signs of intellegent design.

Ah, well, if you're going to take the viewpoint that god created everything, including all the evidence that he didn't create everything, then there's no stopping you I guess.

 

[Pressure]

There is no "proof" otherwise, only crackpot theories like the Big Bang. It's not me you can't stop, it's God. He will always win.

 

[Sui]

I think you're all being awfully hard on Pressure. I may not be a Christian but I am religious, and much of what he says makes total sense to me.

As for the initial post, I'm a Tempest Traveller, and we believe that God has constructed a plan for all planes of existance (life, death and in-between) and challenges are an integral part of his plan. Therefore such things do not worry me.