Another Genius Appointment By Bush

[No Limit]

Oh really? Maybe if you consider new to be years and years back.


U.N. fails to condemn slavery in Sudan.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/20/165110.shtml

Problem is the slavery isn't done by the government, it is done by the militia. Where is the US to help?

The U.N. is even a joke in Sierra Leone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/933288.stm

This is the fault of countries, including the US, that don't want to dedicate any troops.

Where was the U.N. during the massacre in Rwanda in 1994?
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9806/04/rwanda.congo.probe/

Where was the US and other countries responsible for aid?

Where were they when Mugabe expunged all white farmers from Zimbabwe, and caused a famine that threatens to kill 8 million? Now they are talking with Mugabe about how to avert the disaster. What a joke!
http://www.aegis.com/news/afp/2002/AF021258.html

He caused it? As far as I know the problems are with Aids/HIV and we are the ones that don't want to give the UN more money to deal with it as many of you are saying it is a waste. What a joke!

They impede or war in Iraq, claiming diplomacy and inspections are the only answer. At the same time, they refuse to discuss the North Korea's brazen moves.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/28/1043534058398.html

Are you serious? The UN, like the US, wanted Korea to participate in talks with China and a couple others; this was successful until a couple months ago when N Korea called off the talks. Keep in mind before you try to bad mouth this that Bush supported it. (I'm sure that will keep the criticism from your righties to a minimum since Bush was in favor of it).

U.N. ignores more human rights abuses. This time in Iran.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/04/iranno042202.htm

20 countries were opposed to this. Do you have a list of which ones, it would be intersting to see.

U.N. takes over in East Timor, and then drops the ball leading to further violence and anarchy.
http://web.amnesty.org/web/wire.nsf/september2001/east_timor

You mean like we did in Somalia? Damn, the US must be useless.

Remember those Buddist statues in Afghanistan that the Taliban destroyed? Well, you guessed it. The U.N. failed to save them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1201763.stm

What did you want them to do? Invade because they were destroying statues? Sounds like an excuse Bush would use for Iraq.

Now I went through your crap. I want you to point out wherethe US has been successful in preventing human rights violations without the help of the UN. Good luck, I expect a report soon. And to avoid a debate about Iraq leave Iraq out of your reply please.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

sounds like maybe.... Iraq.

And I guess that's the conservative way of saying, "no I do not have a source, but instead I will just say the exact same thing in a different way while not providing a source"

what a waste of time.

Read a few posts down, I gave a huge list of incidents with news articles. I was assuming they were common knowledge, but apparantly not so I posted them.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Problem is the slavery isn't done by the government, it is done by the militia. Where is the US to help?

The janjaweed militias are government sponsored. It's no big secret. The US was pushing for more to be done but the UN took too long. Apparantly if we do anything without the banner of the UN, we are imperialist dogs.

This is the fault of countries, including the US, that don't want to dedicate any troops.

Another point of UN ineffectiveness clearly stated by yourself. Why pump money into an organization that is clearly ineffective? Divert the money to purely humanitarian direct agencies and more will get done.

Where was the US and other countries responsible for aid?

Missing, which is bad. But we can't be everywhere, I wish we would have been there to take care of this though. The UN had the resources to do so, but of course did not take care of it. This situation is EXACTLY what the UN was created to take care of, too.

He caused it? As far as I know the problems are with Aids/HIV and we are the ones that don't want to give the UN more money to deal with it as many of you are saying it is a waste. What a joke!

Famine is a huge issue. You can't get rid of the food source and then complain about there not being enough.

Are you serious? The UN, like the US, wanted Korea to participate in talks with China and a couple others; this was successful until a couple months ago when N Korea called off the talks. Keep in mind before you try to bad mouth this that Bush supported it. (I'm sure that will keep the criticism from your righties to a minimum since Bush was in favor of it).

This wasn't about talks, this was about referring North Korea's continues defiance to the security council. The UN failed to do so. This was 2002. Look at what we have got now...

20 countries were opposed to this. Do you have a list of which ones, it would be intersting to see.

Don't have the list, but it's yet another reason that shows how ineffective the UN has become. Admitting governments that support inhumanities worldwide.

You mean like we did in Somalia? Damn, the US must be useless.

Somalia was a UN operation.

What did you want them to do? Invade because they were destroying statues? Sounds like an excuse Bush would use for Iraq.

If the UN had been effective in its purpose, they would have crushed the Taliban long before it ever got to that point.

Now I went through your crap. I want you to point out wherethe US has been successful in preventing human rights violations without the help of the UN. Good luck, I expect a report soon. And to avoid a debate about Iraq leave Iraq out of your reply please.

We have participated fully in the UN and as such we have been forced to go through with things under their whim. Do you think all of these failures would have gone the same with different party involvement? I think not, especially regarding Somalia. The undermanned force wouldn't have been sent, and Aided wouldn't have been escorted to safety after committing criminal attacks on our troops and humanitarian forces.

 

[blahblahblah]

Problem is the slavery isn't done by the government, it is done by the militia. Where is the US to help?

*snip*

The question is the UN, not the US. Last time I checked the US != UN.

A logical and rational conclusion is that the UN is not very useful for human rights abuses and situations that require interference based upon past precendence (Rwanda anyone?). That is not to say the US or any other country (for instance Belgium with Rwanda) is better.

The role of the UN is one of a beaucracy to slow down military aggression (see Iraq conflict - it did not prevent it, but it surely stalled it for a short while). Quite frankly, history has a pattern showing that big alliances rarely advert military aggression (WW1).

Therefore, the UN is useless because it fails in its primary (stalling of military conflicts) and secondary (economic aid) purposes. If this is the case, why must we give approval of the UN?

 

[gh0st]

Sorry, but I like to debate facts. I know you don't but I see it as the proper way to debate.

Common knowledge. If you know jack shit, which you dont, about what the UN has (or hasnt, actually) done for countries throughout the past few years youd know what I'm talking about. Google "UN" and "Rwanda". Or maybe check up on Bosnia, see how things are going there. Sadly I can name around 20 other countries the benevolent UN has ignored. If you need me to shove 'facts' down your throat like stern does, you can go to hell because I'm not going to do that for you. You arent a baby, use google and check yourself. Or just look at the previously posted links. Or better yet, shut the hell up because youre clueless.

Or maybe it is because we are ignorant bigots?

Do you perhaps have a source on the entirity of France being "cowards" or is this just some more "General knowledge" that is really a bunch of opinionated bullsh*t

Hahahahhaaha. Thats so funny. You immediatly assume I meant France. Looking beyond your immediate misconceptions and stereotypes which you, only you, tried to use against me, you would think that you'd wonder why I'd refer to a single country as "they" when it was much more likely that I meant an entire continent. Yes I am generalizing, they (Europe - and France) are cowards. Boohoo. By the way, I said common knowledge, where are you gettin general knowledge from?

According to UN law, one of the main culprits of violating human rights is America.

Really. the UN made a law that says the US is the main culprit of human rights violations? Wow show me that law, I'm curious about that one. You're probably the same type of person who thinks whatever bullshit laws the UN comes up with are somehow applicable here. Last I checked, the UN doesnt run america, we have a government to do that.

He just called the French cowards.
racism (bigotry)

Racism? Jesus christ...

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.​

Being French isnt a race. Its called a nationality. Being American isnt a race. Its called a nationality. Being Swiss isnt a race. Its called a nationality. Get it?

And defended not having sources.
ignorance

I defended not having sources? I defended his own ability to find his own damn sources I'm not his mommy. But you can call me an ignorant racist all you want, whatever makes your illiterate self feel better. Dont try so hard to be like stern, you will never be smart enough. Try and be yourself for once.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Nice ^

 

[CptStern]

jeez some of you guys think some outrageous things about the UN ...the UN doesnt exist without it's members ...all military economic humanitarian missions are voted on ..without a majority nothing happens ...which is why the US UK and other western countries have been so successful in blocking resolutions ...just veto them, it's usually enough for the resolutions to be defeated before it even makes it's first reading


take rwanda for instance ...from day 2 of the genocide in rwanda the CIA was actively surveying the carnage, even while the UN had begun operations (they were gauging the feasibility of a joint belgium french and US operation to assist Dellaire) after a number of belgium soldiers were killed and still stinging from it's involvement in somalia the UN (the UN's member countries spearheaded by france, belgium and the US) voted to pull out of rwanda:



"Under the power-sharing Arusha Accords, the rebel Rwandan Patriotic Front had stationed a battalion within Kigali, although all other RPF forces remained north of a demilitarized zone (DMZ) in northern Rwanda or at camps in Uganda. In addition to killing prominent Hutu and Tutsi civilians, Rwandan military forces attacked this RPF battalion. On April 8th, RPF forces launched across the DMZ "because the ceasefire had been violated, its Kigali contingent had been attacked, the Rwandan army is killing officials and Tutsis, and the UN is unable to control the situation" as RPF leader Paul Kagame told a U.S. defense attaché.

The resumption of the civil war had important consequences: for the RPF, it was necessary to rescue both their comrades in Kigali and to rescue Tutsi civilians; for the Rwandan military, it served to solidify ranks which were divided over the military's involvement in killing civilians and taking power; for the interim Rwandan government, it would provide an excuse for prosecuting a war against the RPF and any civilians it considered "accomplices" of the RPF, including Tutsi women and children, and it directly threatened the government's existence; and for outside observers, including the U.S., UN, and others inexperienced with Rwanda's history, it confused the killing of civilians with fighting between regular forces and discouraged outside intervention, particularly in the wake of the U.S. and UN experience in Mogadishu."


source - actual state department declassified memo

 

[K e r b e r o s]

jeez some of you guys think some outrageous things about the UN

Jeez, some of you guys think some outrageous things about the US

 

[seinfeldrules]

Jeez, some of you guys think some outrageous things about the US

ahahaha so true. Well said.

 

[gh0st]

We had a reason not to assist rwanda. Nobody wanted to see another mogadishu incident. The payoff for us would have been nonexistent. Thanks for acknowledging though that these countries SHOULD have acted unilaterally. Are you really saying no other UN country could have helped? Should belgium have pulled out after losing what, 3 people? It their colonial responsibility. Why must you always insist that the US be at fault and take responsibility for the world? (I'm aware you didnt say this directly, but I know its what you're thinking)

U-N Secretary-General Annan acknowledged the failure of the United Nations in Rwanda and expressed his deep remorse.​

(globalsecurity.org)

Not the US failure, the UN failure. Have you read Dallaires book? I think you should, its 'neat' who he puts the blame on.

 

[No Limit]

There we go another righty trying to argue by playing the "un-american" card. Will it ever get old for you guys?

 

[gh0st]

There we go another righty trying to argue by playing the "un-american" card. Will it ever get old for you guys?

Will it ever get old for you to constantly criticize and belittle the united states, and glorify the corrupt, opulent, greedy, selfish, uncaring UN? Will the madness stop? Of course not, the USA can do no right can it? We could give 2000000000 dollars to every country on earth and we'd still be mocked and labeled as opportunists. You criticize this person for not liking the UN, but we're labeled as "rightys", are we supposed to let you run amok with your baseless comments on his past?

 

[operative x]

I dont mind too much on loosing the U.N. I guess because i learned a lesson today, "Don't depend on nobody but yourself", so after my own experience i frankly am not too wrorried.

 

[CptStern]

Not the US failure, the UN failure. Have you read Dallaires book? I think you should, its 'neat' who he puts the blame on.

ummmmmmmm, no:


"interviewer: Of course Clinton went and apologized--

Romeo Dallaire: He didn't apologize.


Interviewer: Well, it was couched as an apology.

Romeo Dallaire: No, no. He went to reinforce the blackmail on the Rwandans. … When he was there in `98, he said, "Oh, I didn't know. We didn't realize." I've got all those quotes and stuff, which are outright lies. They knew, it was there as information, and it is evident that that information was either at his level or stopped within the structures. But the Americans knew what was going on inside there, and [it's awful] to go and excuse yourself -- the Belgians did the same thing -- in front of these people. The Americans scuttled any initiative to bring about a force to be able to save hundreds of thousands. How can they look at this guy and accept an apology?"




source

 

[gh0st]

I said his book. Clinton had no need to appologize.

 

[CptStern]

The Americans scuttled any initiative to bring about a force to be able to save hundreds of thousands.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Will it ever get old for you to constantly criticize and belittle the united states, and glorify the corrupt, opulent, greedy, selfish, uncaring UN? Will the madness stop? Of course not, the USA can do no right can it? We could give 2000000000 dollars to every country on earth and we'd still be mocked and labeled as opportunists. You criticize this person for not liking the UN, but we're labeled as "rightys", are we supposed to let you run amok with your baseless comments on his past?

Right on, Ghost!

"Give that man a cigar!"

The Americans scuttled any initiative to bring about a force to be able to save hundreds of thousands.

Where was Canada with it's, "hundreds of thousands?"

 

[CptStern]

dallaire is canadian ......................................................:upstare:

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Dallaire is not 100,000 canadians. :/

 

[gh0st]

dallaire is canadian ......................................................:upstare:

Then how come Canada didnt come to his aid with.. wait. Oh yeah, sorry. The liberal mantra "Blame America" is getting tiresome stern, take some responsibility for once instead of the old tried and true "Lets shift our problems to the greatest country on earth, no one will suspect them"

 

[seinfeldrules]

There we go another righty trying to argue by playing the "un-american" card. Will it ever get old for you guys?

Will it ever get old? I dunno.... (looking down the thread a few posts, I was wondering how long it would take to blame America)

The Americans scuttled any initiative to bring about a force to be able to save hundreds of thousands.

5 posts I guess :|

 

[mabufo]

I bet more than half the people on these forums don't know how the UN works...

The UN needs some revisions.. some changes... that's all I'm going to say.

 

[CptStern]

ya that's right canada sent in only one soldier ...anyways, it was a failure in all respects ..every UN member has a share of the blame

 

[gh0st]

No. It was a failure by the UN. Dont blame its members, blame the institution. Saying it wasent the UN administrations fault is absurd. We reserve the right to act unilaterally for the good of other nations, why shouldnt others? Its not cause they are spineless are they?

"The Canadians who served with the UN in Rwanda performed superbly. For their efforts, each and every member richly deserved the high praise that was received from both the UN as well as from the local population."

Haha... god. That sites a joke.

 

[CptStern]

the UN is it's members .. jeez I dont see how you dont get it. How is the institution to blame if most members are turning a blind eye to what's going on? ..seriously guys you see what you want to see...I didnt say it was the US' fault. It was who Dallaire pointed to a number of countries that wanted to pull out ..especially after the UN soldiers were murdered


btw that "joke" of a werbsite as you call it is the canadian military website attached to the UN mission in rwanda ..sure it suffers from hyperbole but what did you expect? it's a military website

 

[gh0st]

the UN is it's members .. jeez I dont see how you dont get it. How is the institution to blame if most members are turning a blind eye to what's going on? ..seriously guys you see what you want to see...I didnt say it was the US' fault. It was who Dallaire pointed to a number of countries that wanted to pull out ..especially after the UN soldiers were murdered

The UN is its members overseen by a third party administrative wing of the UN. Kind of like Kofi (who at the time was head of the peacekeeping part of the UN if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong) turning a blind eye to Rwanda? He certainly didnt help things. The US has an alibi, no one else does.

 

[mabufo]

He is saying the idea of the UN is bad.. if I'm not mistaken?

 

[gh0st]

He is saying the idea of the UN is bad.. if I'm not mistaken?

Thats what myself and several others are saying, yeah. The IDEA is sound but in principle it works poorly.

 

[CptStern]

did you read anything I've linked to ..or are you getting this from "common knowledge"?

what alibi? the CIA oversaw the slaughter ..they were witnesses ...do you want the documents that prove it?

 

[gh0st]

did you read anything I've linked to ..or are you getting this from "common knowledge"?

what alibi? the CIA oversaw the slaughter ..they were witnesses ...do you want the documents that prove it?

Yeah, I'm aware and I saw the documents posted, and I know. You say the CIA "oversaw" it like it was their doing. Might want to reword that, or your blatant anti american bias might shine through.

I'm saying that this is one event where you should exclude the US from blame. I guess Canada can come too, Dallaire is a good man. What, more importantly WHO should be blamed is the UN administration who turned far more of a blind eye to Rwandas plight than the CIA (who are conveniently blamed for everything by you people around here).

Our alibi? We have no reason to intervene. Our security isnt threatened, and the public would have gone bonkers about it (Somalia), we have so little to gain from it.

This discussion is rediculous anyway, go dig up our old rwanda thread, I'll be damned if I'm going to discuss this again.

 

[seinfeldrules]

This discussion is rediculous anyway, go dig up our old rwanda thread, I'll be damned if I'm going to discuss this again.

Probably not worth it. Everything (in fantasy land) = America's fault anyways.

 

[CptStern]

Yeah, I'm aware and I saw the documents posted, and I know. You say the CIA "oversaw" it like it was their doing. Might want to reword that, or your blatant anti american bias might shine through.

you see what you want to see

I'm saying that this is one event where you should exclude the US from blame. I guess Canada can come too, Dallaire is a good man. What, more importantly WHO should be blamed is the UN administration who turned far more of a blind eye to Rwandas plight than the CIA (who are conveniently blamed for everything by you people around here).

no, I dont think the US is blameless. Dallaire himself said that ..sure the UN pulled out (not turned a blind eye PULLED OUT) most member countries voted against continuing the mission ..if you truely read Dallaire's book you'd know that

Our alibi? We have no reason to intervene. Our security isnt threatened, and the public would have gone bonkers about it (Somalia), we have so little to gain from it.

no, read this, it details everything ..I must remind you that these are official documents released under the Freedom of information act (I love that bill)

Probably not worth it. Everything (in fantasy land) = America's fault anyways.

well here's the OFFICIAL US documents maybe you'd like to separate the fact from the fiction

 

[mabufo]

well here's the OFFICIAL US documents maybe you'd like to separate the fact from the fiction

I'm curious.. How did something the Rwandan presidential guard did have anything to do with the US?

After all the liberals are the ones condemning the US whenever we do act on something like this... it's funny how they just turn when we don't.

 

[Calanen]

Thats the rub isn't it? You adopt slick Willy's policy of keep out of things - and you get hammered....ie you caused the genocide. The CIA knew what was going on. But so did every1. I don't think there is anything to suggest that the CIA was leading the genocide.

So the USA - because of Black Hawk Down Syndrome - did not want to get involved. And why would they? They just cop a whole heap of crap from everyone like the Sterns of the world. So Slick Willy, decided no....

But you can't have your cake and eat it too Stern. Either the USA should never get involved in overseas actions, or it should. Not that whenever they do intervene they are wrong, and whenever they fail to intervene they are wrong.

Basically, its better to be wrong for doing nothing, at least that is cheaper.

 

[seinfeldrules]

There we go another righty trying to argue by playing the "un-american" card. Will it ever get old for you guys?

......

The Americans scuttled any initiative to bring about a force to be able to save hundreds of thousands.

Again Stern, in every single topic you blame America. In some, its our fault for getting involved, in others its our fault for not getting involved. The bias really is transparent.

 

[mabufo]

Bill Clinton is the one to blame if you ask me...

saying something like The CIA led the genocide.. when clearly the presidential guard was the one doing it is just crazy... it said in the 'official documents' that you posted that the presidential guard were the people doing it...

Damned if we act. Damned if we don't.

 

[CptStern]

sigh ...you guys make mountains out of molehills ...I never said the CIA was responsible (mabuto if you had bothered to read the intelligence documents you'd see that)

seinfeldrules:

"The Americans scuttled any initiative to bring about a force to be able to save hundreds of thousands"

that's a direct quote from Romeo Dallaire ..not me

clinton, reagan, bush whomever ..I really dont care ..I'm not in the least partisan ..foreign policy has no partisanship ...it's the same throughout the history of the US ...funny how you guys will jump all over a democrat pres yet you'll die before you admit any sort of culpability from a republican prez ...you know, sooner or later you MUSt take your heads out of the sand ..or be left behind

 

[No Limit]

......



Again Stern, in every single topic you blame America. In some, its our fault for getting involved, in others its our fault for not getting involved. The bias really is transparent.

Point out facts of others being at fault. Stern posted nothing but facts. Sure, they are ugly. However, when you can't face these facts you are quick to label him unamerican. If he has this bias prove it. Show links of other countries being as responsible as we were. This would be a much better argument that "you un-american bastard".

 

[CptStern]

thx no Limit ...I'm starting to get used to it ..I've asked Munro to change my name to "Cpt Un-american bastard Stern" but he says it's too much of a mouthful

 

[KoreBolteR]

stern, i have never critisized you.

just a reminder. \o/