Bowling for Columbine

[Javert]

I know many out there will want to shoot me (pun intended) for resurrecting this thread, but after watching it yesterday, I would just like to put in my two bullets, er, cents.

Did "Bowling for Columbine" deserve an Oscar"
I say it DOES for several reasons.

Organization and Editing
There is very few "filler" in this documentary and not a moment is wasted. Moore clearly presents a thesis dealing with American fear and presents arguments, support and evidence. The film flows smoothly and has nary a "boring spot". All the interviews are nicely organized and juxtaposed. He knows how to make film.

Contents and Facts
Ok, the real dinger. Editing is attributed to some of the stretches. For example, as noted by a hardcore dissenter of "Columbine", the NRA didn't plan the rally in Flint RIGHT after the 6 year-old shooting, a considerable time has passed and the goal was political. However, does it excuse the NRA to host a rally in Flint? Or in Columbine, perhaps? I don't think so.
Also controversial was the "Buying Ammo at Canadian K-mart" scene. Sure, the law says foreigners can't buy it. But I strongly doubt the scene was faked, the woman probably was not aware of the regulation, and the fact that Moore was able to walk away with ammunition, ID check or no ID check, presents its point.
"NRA and KKK in American History cartoon" was also lambasted. I also believe that it was only a coincidence. However, it's disconcerting that two groups complemented each other so well unintentionally.
The statistics and historical points in the film are all true, including the murder numbers.
The ending of the Charlton Heston interview was poignant, not to mention saddening. But Moore couldn't expect Mr. Heston to recall everything with exact clarity (he does have Alzheimers), nor produce good answers on the spot. Therefore, I dismiss his "racist" comment.
Despite naysayers, Heston DID say everything he was shown to have said. Though it may have been taken out of context, the fact that it was stated ("from my dead, cold hands") does not diminish its relevance.
Plus, film and history is after all subjective. Even the Discovery Channel doesn't paint the Great White Shark as a teddy bear doesn't it? Do you think Schindler's List is "fair and objective"? Part of an art's purpose is to provoke and incite.

Ability to provoke Discussion and Controversy
Take a look at this forum and critic reviews for enough discussion and controversy. Rarely has a film roused so much hatred, love, criticism, support, naysayers, and believers in the film industry and audience. But it is precisely this discussion and dialogue about such a pertinent issue that this society needs: the society needs to debate and relegate, not just blindly stand aside, this film does not allow you to do so. If not for this documentary, American domestic violence would be hidden underneath the current Iraq war and California recall. It is this ability to stoke discussion and controversy that brings this subject to light again and for once make the silent voice their opinions. We need that more in a democracy.

It's effect and timelessness
As long as Americans have a gun problem, this documentary will be very relevant. As long as domestic violence, poverty, and cultural differences are issues, this documentary will be very relevant. As long as there are "psychos" out there, Moore has placed the subject on the table, and there it will stay.
Because of this documentary, Kmart no longer sells ammo, and that's a good thing. Hopefully, Big-5, Wal-Mart, and Sport-mart will follow. Despite criticism, it can not be doubted that this documentary has probably inspired a good amount of people to do something about this problem.

My personal view on guns and Moore's thesis
You do not need an M-16 assault rifle to protect yourself against burglars.
You do not need a TEC-9 semi-automatic to hunt deer.
You should not be able to buy ammo at a convenience store.
I believe that the American media does provoke unecessary fear. And this fear does lead to violence. The ease of acquiring such weapons is astounding and should be heavily regulated (for once, Chris Rock had the right idea). Maybe we should be like our Canadian and European counterparts, for the only thing that differs between us is fear against other people. If we were to eliminate fear, would we then eliminate the majority of the violence? I think so. I hope so. I may be too optimistic, but it's a hell of a good start.

Javert.

Discuss.

 

[MrWhite]

I agree on most of the stuff.. and I loved the bit on canada, mwahaha

 

[ankalar]

It's a great movie, especially the concise history of the United States cartoon.

 

[DimitriPopov]

Originally posted by ankalar
It's a great movie, especially the concise history of the United States cartoon.

which is biased and stupid. It may deserve an oscar , but certainly not for a documentary. You all know the site , taking things out of context is NOT a documentary and it destroys the whole meaning of anything its done to. This is not a documentary.

 

[el Chi]

<el Chi awakes from an epileptic seizure started by Ankalar's avatar>
Wha'? Oh... Yes.
I think Michael Moore's great - Downsize This! and Stupid White Men are superb (I have yet to see Roger & Me) - as is Bowling... But it has to admitted that he's not exactly even-handed.
Nevertheless, I think he's great. Huzzah and well done for the oscar (But not the speech: "Shame on you Mr. Bush!" Nice sentiment, but how old ARE you?)


EDIT: Dmitri, why was it "stupid"? Elaborate.

 

[DimitriPopov]

Originally posted by el Chi
<el Chi awakes from an epileptic seizure started by Ankalar's avatar>
Wha'? Oh... Yes.
I think Michael Moore's great - Downsize This! and Stupid White Men are superb (I have yet to see Roger & Me) - as is Bowling... But it has to admitted that he's not exactly even-handed.
Nevertheless, I think he's great. Huzzah and well done for the oscar (But not the speech: "Shame on you Mr. Bush!" Nice sentiment, but how old ARE you?)


EDIT: Dmitri, why was it "stupid"? Elaborate.

Well Ill give it a go , as I only watched the clip a LONG time ago. (BTW- I wanted to say bigoted but I didnt know if that was the right word.) It was like he hated white people... and hes white. It also made it seem taht every white person in America is KKK and has 50 guns , and white people have always been reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly horrible. Ill go try to find it again...



Chi , you come home on the weekends or something?

 

[el Chi]

I haven't gone just yet. But I'm off on tuesday. I'll probably be back every so often. I just did that Goodbye thread to say bubyes and you folky-poos are cool. Cheers, etc.

Anyhoo - I kind of see what you mean. He's a bit heavy-handed, but when we're being 100% honest, white folk have a LOT to answer for.

 

[DimitriPopov]

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/media/clips/index.php

Ok here we go

1. Pilgrims , no the English werent the only ones to come to the new world , and the pilgrims werent the main population , hes going by his 4th grade classes

2. Indians- Blah blha "Wiping out a whole race" blah blah , yeah thats about as negative as you could put it. Bad things were done sure , but its not unique to American history , American history is acutally pretty mild in this regard. Most of what killed the Indians was DISEASE not guns.

3. Slavery- Was NOT an American invetion by FAR , slavery had been going on for centuries in Europe and Africa before the New World. The first system was not slaves , it was indentured servants. And most of the slaves from Africa acutally went to South America and the West Indies.

4. Uprisings- Apparently there were HUGE uprisings of all slaves that NOONE else knows about , there were infact a few , but not as he portrays

5. Colt- A gun that shoots once and reload and a gun that shoots 6 times and reload can do the SAME damage. Civil War for instance.

6. 2nd Amendment- Apparently the ammendment specifices only White men , but its not stated there. Also apparently they "loves theys guns"

7. False association- Of the KKK to the NRA , which have agendas that dont intersect anywhere , but in this film they do! This topic has been covered enough so I wont go in depth

8. Hypocricy- Earlier the film states the 2ammendment made it legal for specifically "WHITE" men to own their guns , now later it restates that it was only after the Civil War that a law was passed making it illegal for black people to own guns (which is a bad law , that I do not dispute)

9. Civil Rights- This film belittles the fact that many whites were Moderate on the Civil Rights movement , many whites gave time and effort to HELP the movement. But in this short cartoon the white people are all silly talking hate mongerers

10. Suburbs- The white people move to the suburbs to escape black people , NOT. Suburbs lets see , cleaner air , more space , less traffic , less crime , better house , why would you NOT move there.

11. Security- All security devices are for protection against black people apparently. Totally false , alarms, gates , locks , these are protection against Criminals , and not everyone has them , my neighborhood isnt gated with friggin barbed wire.

12. Post Script- EVERYONE OWNS A GUN. False.

 

[el Chi]

Dmitri:
1. I think he's watering it down for the foreigners like myself.
2. Diseases brought by the settlers, natch. Ok they couldn't help that but still. Settlers have done terrible things to natives the world over it's true, but the focus was America and it's undeniable that Native Americans have a diabolical time and are now diminishing in numbers and are, for the most part, very poor. They do not deserve this fate.
3. He never said slavery was a new invention, merely that the new Americans exploited it for longer and to a larger gain than Europeans and this has some truth. Most European countries banned it before America, but that's besides the point. Where they went from is irrelevant.
4. I couldn't comment.
5. Such a gun is easier to use and will fire more bullets - what's your point here?
6. Don't know the ammendments, etc. but I doubt he could get away with lying here so perhaps this law was repealed later? And it's perfectly healthy and natural for a man to "loves his gun" Just a bit of laughter...
7. Yes it was a bit cruel and cheeky, but he's just having a pop at the Far Right - never a bad thing in my books. And let's face it, there probably WAS a lot of sympathy for one another. But that's not to say they were hand in hand.
8. I'm a bit confused as to what you've said here. I thought that after the Civil war a law was made saying it WAS ok for Black guys to own guns... Therefore, the original ammendment said "No guns for blacks", and now it's changed to "Black guys can have guns too."
9. It's one section from the film. Of COURSE not all Whites were racists, but many were (as a product of society more than anything else) especially in the South (still are).
10. Suburbs are dull as ditch-water, that's why. Besides that I think it's a perspective thing and it's a phenomenom you see in many countries of the world: The black community generally lives in the poorer inner-city areas, and the whites live nearer the suburbs. Nice places. Perhaps a product of racism and fear but maybe a product of more money and "nice family atmosphere" or whatever. Maybe a bit of both? Certainly true that in such areas, cultural mingling ain't gonna happen. Bad Thing.
11. Yes, a bit of bias and exaggeration there (remember that - he wasn't suggesting, for example, that babies and dogs had gun lisences). However, the security is to protect against criminals and the stereotypical American criminal (and not JUST American stereotype I should point out) is a black guy, sadly.
12. He didn't say everyone owns a gun. He merely stated how many guns America bought in such-and-such a period.

 

[DimitriPopov]

It took me long enough to post my 12 , im kinda deflated lol , maybe later

 

[el Chi]

Same. el Chi needs his bed...

<Yawns>

 

[Stiler]

www.bowlingfortruth.com

 

[Thadius Dean]

hey, you guys hear about the new doc MM is making?

farienheit 9-11: The Temperature at which Freedom Burns

 

[MrWhite]

Originally posted by Thadius Dean
hey, you guys hear about the new doc MM is making?

farienheit 9-11: The Temperature at which Freedom Burns

I liked bowling for columbine, but damn, this just seems like he's trying to piss people off now

 

[DimitriPopov]

Ive got a roofle:

"Not to be outdone, filmmaker-absurdist Michael Moore, announced this week that his next “documentary,” entitled “Fahrenheit 9/11: The Temperature at which Freedom Burns,” will show linkages between President George W. Bush and Osama bin-Laden. Miramax, the Disney film subsidiary responsible for films of such dubious merit as “Kids” and “Priest,” reportedly will distribute Moore’s new effort.

Mr. Moore is, of course, the same ignoramus who rebuked the dead passengers on the four hijacked 9-11 aircraft during a series of monologues in the UK. According to Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who writes a column for “The Independent” of London: “Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the planes on September 11 were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes…”
"

http://www.freedomalliance.org/view_article.php?a_id=271

hahah Michael Moore is such a jackass. I know that source is definetly Biased but if I can prove that he said that.. plus this next 'documentary' will NOT fly with the public , hes a moron.

 

[DimitriPopov]

That quote is confirmed as is the above mentioned new documentary. Given neither of the sources are very unbiased , but the quote cannot be mistaken.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30367

http://interversity.org/lists/arn-l/archives/jan2003/msg00248.html

 

[Morbo]

That's funny how right-wing american medias are giving such stupid arguments to discreditate BFC. Most of this film is facts, Michael Moore is NOT a liar. But he will edit his movies to make his points more clear and sometimes shocking.

He often exaggerate too, like the cartoon in BFC. That was hilarious if you ask me. Don't you get it? That was made to be shocking and direct. Michael Moore is someone very sarcastic. In his book, Stupid WHite Men (which is excellent) he tell the reader that white people scare him. He points out that during his life, every single person who hurt him, make in suffer, or make hium trouble was white. I'm sure it's true. And it's true for me too. Well if you read this at the first degree, yeah you'll think that Moore is racist towards his own race (I think the concept of race is ridiculous in itself but that's another subject). But he's saying all that to point the fact that American medias are demonizing black people. He's saying: why do I see that much black persons in the news if I've never had any trouble with any black person? You should see BFC and read Stupid White Men. But first, don't start thinking that Moore hates America of that he hates you. No, he hates Bush (it's less obvious in BFC tho). BFC isn't a judgement in itself, it's a way to get people to judge their own society. He says: «Look, something is wrong. Definately. Here's what it might be.». Many said that BFC asked questions and didn't answer any. Yeah right, that's true. I think that's a proof that Moore isn't showing BS. If he was the liar, manipulator or whatever some are calling him, I think he would have made up an answer. Believe me this guy could easily convince people that he knows the answer of any problems in America. But he does not and he does not say he does (whoa strange sentence).

I do understant many Americans feel insulted by this movie. Yeah it's probably insulting. But he's trying to shock you, to activate your critical sense. And it looks like many lack it. The first step is to look at your government, or your country, or both, and to ask yourself if it's really that great right now. IF it's not, then why? How can you change that? That's not easy, but that's how you IMPROVE something. I'm sick of seeing people answering to critics: Yeah, what can I do about it? Well do something or just don't vote! That's the same here, and I think that's why democracy doesn't always work. Here in Quebec and I think it's the same thing everywhere, people that have absolutely no idea of who they are voting for are actually coting. Sh** if you don't know just stay home and let people with a friggin' brain thinking for you if that's how you choose to be. People are too damn lazy to open a newspaper once in a while to look at how things are going, and when it's election day they vote for the one with the best TV ads or what their neighboor tells them to vote. All you get it's total jackasses at the head of a nation or province or state or whatever.

***But*** I got to calm down, this isn't about BFC anymore, so I'll just keep my frustrations about last Quebec elections for me...

 

[SpuD]

I love that movie

I love the little toon that the creator of south park did.

 

[Morbo]

Originally posted by SpuD
I love that movie

I love the little toon that the creator of south park did.

It's *not* by Trey Parker or Matt Stone

 

[shapeshifter]

Originally posted by DimitriPopov

2. Indians- Blah blha "Wiping out a whole race" blah blah , yeah thats about as negative as you could put it. Bad things were done sure , but its not unique to American history , American history is acutally pretty mild in this regard. Most of what killed the Indians was DISEASE not guns.

uh yea disease was a major killing factor of them, guess what the americans did? they laced blankets with various diseases and gave them to the natives as "gifts" to help them. very kind of the them.

 

[Jmechy]

Michael Moore is coming to my school to talk at some point next month. I'm buying a ticket for sure, i think (from what i saw in bowling) that the man is brilliant...
amazing movie, amazing points.

When it ended, i felt like yelling "heston got pwned..."

 

[Stiler]

Editing out your movie to make it seem that someone said something they didn't is LYING, no matter what you want to mask it as.

 

[Javert]

Originally posted by Jmechy
Michael Moore is coming to my school to talk at some point next month. I'm buying a ticket for sure, i think (from what i saw in bowling)

Lucky you.
What school is this?

 

[Doobz]

www.bowlingfortruth.com

here's a nice site debunking most of his entire movie

 

[Homer]

Michael Moore is a lying son of a bitch; almost everything in the movie was staged. Not only is he a horrible person, but bowling wasn’t even a freaking documentary! That smelly fatass does not deserve any of the praise he has gotten, and I hope that fiasco at the awards show signifies the end of his career.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.moorewatch.com

 

[Homer]

Originally posted by Morbo
That's funny how right-wing american medias...

america does NOT have a right wing media. even fox news reports the war in iraq as a total disaster (which it is not btw). The only reason people have begun saying that lately is because the far left portion of the media has kind of fallen off the radar. the mainstreem media is still heavily liberal.

Originally posted by Morbo
...he will edit his movies to make his points more clear and sometimes shocking. ...

editing your movies to make people say things they did not is lying. period.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by DimitriPopov
hahah Michael Moore is such a jackass.

He's not a jackass or a moron - although what the f*ck he thought he was doing saying what he allegedly said God only knows. I mean, he can be opinionated but that's stupid and disrespectful. But then we all say things we regret later on.
I think his new movie could be very interesting but no doubt massively controversial. Just from the title the guy's on thin ice.
But let's not beat around the bush (no pun intended): The current White House administration has used those events to up the fear of terrorism and up the military budget (amongst other things). They can get away with a lot more now they're fighting the "Evil Doers" and anyone who disagrees with them is automatically denounced as "un-American". It's an awful shame. For the love of God, when the next election comes around GET OUT THERE AND VOTE. But NOT for Bush. As strange as it may sound, what happens in the voting booth in the US will affect the rest of the world.

And Homer: Yes, the war in Iraq WAS a disaster and a lie and unless people acknowledge that, Bush will only decide he can get away with more and plunge yet more countries he doesn't like into war. And Blair might go along for the ride unless we Brits get rid of him one way or another.

 

[Brian Damage]

<Lights the Great Bomb Of Controversy>

Bush was illegally elected anyway.

<Ducks behind table>

Seeya.

 

[el Chi]

Precisely. He wasn't elected, he had his way paved there for him because of his family, just like he's gotten everything else in his life.

 

[Warbie]

Top movie

Accusing Moore of being racist for Stupid White Men completely misses the point (or does it make his point?? ). As does critically analyising the cartoon from BFC ......... which is extremely funny and to the point.

Many of the facts in BFC movie can't be disputed, as they are facts. The simple truth is that loads of ppl get shot in America every year, there has to be a reason why.

BFC explores this this in a sensible way, something which has never been done before. The movie being very enjoyable and funny watch aswell is a credit to Michael Moore's talents.

Now all we need is a documentary investigating why subtle humour and whit is always misconstrued by Americans ( imho jk etc) probably get called racist for that lol

 

[burnzie]

Ficus for congress!!!

 

[peoplesuc]

I watched it and it was totally BS propoganda. Not even all that funny. It had NOTHING to do with columbine. No new footage, no new info and no resolution or blame towards any specific group. It was just, "...America sucks but I can't be bothered to leave because I make too much money over here!"

Mike sucks.
I hear that he is funding a Half-Life 2 mod that recreates what happened on 4-20-99 through the eyes of the actual killers. How ****ed up is that shit? This tub of lard deserves to have that oscar up his bottom.

VOTE: YES on the RECALL.

 

[peoplesuc]

15,000+ people died in france this summer because of the heat wave. Mostly the elderly and young were affected the most. Good to know that the 'wonderful' french government and socialist health care system was there to do NOTHING for their smelly citizens.

Well thats not 100% true. Some politicians suggested that the people take showers and baths on a regular basis but the press got wind of this and silenced them quickly.

Less people around the WORLD died of AIDS this summer then people did of heat stroke in france.

Good job jock! Keep it up!

 

[peoplesuc]

france - home of criminal child molesters (roman polanski)
- home of evil dictators (napoleon)
- the birth place of the guillotine
- racist ass holes (frenchmans)
- origin of Anti-Semitism


Notice in all my posts that I only capitalize proper nouns that are deemed worthy? Like AMERICA and france. Just wanted to bring it up.

 

[Homer]

Originally posted by el Chi
Precisely. He wasn't elected, he had his way paved there for him because of his family, just like he's gotten everything else in his life.

I would just like to point out to everyone that once enough votes are counted in a state that no matter to whom the rest of the votes go only one person could be the winner they stop counting. because of this most late votes and military ballets(which go 2 to 1 republican) never get counted. Nobody knows who actually won the popular vote.

besides, the florida recount was crooked as hell, they were just recounting districs that tended to go heavily democrat. it was total bs.

 

[Homer]

Originally posted by Warbie

Many of the facts in BFC movie can't be disputed...

Actually, most of them CAN be disputed. For the most part he just pulled numbers out of his ass. When he did look up numbers he always went back 30 or 40 years to find the single year that supported his claims the most. He staged the majority of the events that took place in that pile of garbage, AND he looks rather like a mole person.

 

[Homer]

Originally posted by peoplesuc
france - home of criminal child molesters (roman polanski)
- home of evil dictators (napoleon)
- the birth place of the guillotine
- racist ass holes (frenchmans)
- origin of Anti-Semitism


Notice in all my posts that I only capitalize proper nouns that are deemed worthy? Like AMERICA and france. Just wanted to bring it up.

Heh, funny how people forget about other nations guilty of widespread anti-Semitism.People think germany was the only country ever to try to wipe out the Jews(although, they were the worst) Nobody ever remembers that right before Stalin died he planned to have all the Jews in the USSR sent to Siberia (where they would almost certainly have been killed).

 

[Swartz]

peoplesuc, I remember you from the Postal2 forums.

If I remember correctly, while myself nd others were saying (jokingly) lets make a schol shooting mod, you were in total support of it, so shut the **** up.
I'm so glad I left that board, you're all a bunch of morons who promote war and racism. If you still post there please tell them to burn in hell or me.

Michael Moore is brilliant and I'm glad he's out there pointing everything out.
You people that are against him are making terrible, laughable points which only further shows that you are just "patriot" types who love their country blindly unable to realize all that is wrong with it.

Moore rules and I can't wait for his new documentary to come out.

It doesn't matter what it is that Moore says, there are always going to be war lovers (aka Republicans, aka "patriots", aka assholes) saying he's full of shit, because they don't want to be beaten.
Stop pulling facts from your ass and come up with some intelligent debates against Moore.

Also, whites DID kill the indians in the majority, not disease. I'm not sure wether you completed high school or ot, because this is information most know.
The indians were raped, butchered, and murdered, in a style very similar to the Nazi's.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by peoplesuc
I hear that he is funding a Half-Life 2 mod that recreates what happened on 4-20-99 through the eyes of the actual killers. How ****ed up is that shit?

I'll bet you that's a dirty great big fat LIE of which you have no proof whatsoever.

france - home of criminal child molesters (roman polanski)

Yes, he's a child molestor, but you make it sound like France invented it for sport. Don't be stupid, there are child molestors the world over. Really weak point.

home of evil dictators (napoleon)

Oh don't be ridiculous. Besides, that was CENTURIES ago.

racist ass holes (frenchmans)

Yes, France is a racist country but face facts: America is not an all-accepting incluisive cosmopolitan utopia. So before you snipe at other countries' failings, think about your own.

Homer: I would like proof that Stalin was planning a Semitic genocide before you go making such audacious claims.
And by the way - I know I'll never convince you but I'll just state this once more - the last US election was stolen. The situation in Florida was completely manipulated by Dubya's brother and his cronies to give him the upper hand.

 

[shapeshifter]

Originally posted by peoplesuc
france - home of criminal child molesters (roman polanski)
- home of evil dictators (napoleon)
- the birth place of the guillotine
- racist ass holes (frenchmans)
- origin of Anti-Semitism


Notice in all my posts that I only capitalize proper nouns that are deemed worthy? Like AMERICA and france. Just wanted to bring it up.

we can easily do that about say america to
USA - home of David Berkowitz (aka the son of sam) im sure you have heard of him.
- Home of evil dictators (GWB)
- The birth place of electric chair
- Racist ass holes (americans has lots)
- and to anti-semitism usa has has lots of that to