Boy Scouts and "government funding"

[CptStern]

And that is where you are wrong, the BSA is not the few people at the top, it is the troops, the leaders of the troops, and the members that make it up. They are almost entirley independintly run. It is like saying that all Americans hate homosexuals because most states don't allow them to marry.

you're missing the point ..the people who run the organisation determine the policies that govern the organisation ..for example:

are there any chapters that allow openly homosexual people become members? your answer has to be no because to my knowledge that's against the rules; rules set into place by the people who determine policy. You just cant see beyond your little corner of the organisation ...does that mean that every boyscout is as intolerant of gays as the administrators who determine policy are? no, of course not

 

[Foxtrot]

you're missing the point ..the people who run the organisation determine the policies that govern the organisation ..for example:

are there any chapters that allow openly homosexual people become members?

I believe venture crews are allowed to.

 

[Maxi]

It seems as though scouts in the US is a whole different thing from scouts in Finland.

 

[CptStern]

I believe venture crews are allowed to.

I'm never been a boyscout (big surprise) so I dont understand the significance of the "venture crew" ..please explain

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

It seems as though scouts in the US is a whole different thing from scouts in Finland.

What do the scouts do in Finland?

 

[CptStern]

What do the scouts do in Finland?

I'm not sure but I think they do this a lot

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I'm not sure but I think they do this a lot

What the hell is going on this picture?

 

[CptStern]

I havent a clue :E

 

[Ennui]

I don't even want to consider.

 

[Maxi]

Cpt stern is clearly biased.


Anyway, we sure as hell don't discriminate against gays.

Scouting is finland is open to everyone, males, females, gays, jews, everyone. Second, it's very cheap, so that everyone has a chance to take part. Also we aren't pussys as most people think we are. We do cool stuff, and usefull stuff.

 

[CptStern]

Cpt stern is clearly biased..

oh come on, you're telling me finnish boyscouts dont do that? ...not even a little?

 

[Maxi]

Maybe the gay ones, but I wouldn't know

 

[CptStern]

lol!! heheh good comeback :thumbs:

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Cpt stern is clearly biased.


Anyway, we sure as hell don't discriminate against gays.

Scouting is finland is open to everyone, males, females, gays, jews, everyone. Second, it's very cheap, so that everyone has a chance to take part. Also we aren't pussys as most people think we are. We do cool stuff, and usefull stuff.

It sounds exactly the same as our scouts except for allowing gays.

 

[Maxi]

and we aren't militaristic at all, we are very leisurly, we aren't strict at all, but still people do what they are asked. It's kinda odd actually. It's like the best teamwork you've ever seen in a game, only it's real life. Everything just works, and gets done and no one gets paid.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

and we aren't militaristic at all, we are very leisurly, we aren't strict at all, but still people do what they are asked. It's kinda odd actually. It's like the best teamwork you've ever seen in a game, only it's real life. Everything just works, and gets done and no one gets paid.

It sounds exactly like our scouts

 

[Maxi]

Heh, cool

 

[SOCL]

Venture Scouts are basically a spin-off of the BSA where females are permitted to enroll. Further, they do different activities geared more towards the outdoors than merti badges. I was a member and "Crew Chief" for nearly my entire teenage years.

I believe venture crews are allowed to.

Once again, you are incorrect. The Venture Scouts may allow females, but beyond that, the rules to enter are the same--no one may be a homosexual or atheist. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't homosexual or atheists, as you have so many times pointed out, Foxtrot, but if the National Council got wind of it, they would throw them all out. Further, if the National Council of Scouting got wind of the fact that you have the rank of Eagle Scout and were and are an atheist, they would similarly strip you of rank and ban you from the organization for life. That's just the way it is, so I would suggest keeping a lower profile if you actually do care about your Eagle Scout rank. Any how, you said you argued about religion. Simply because you argue about religion doesn't mean those around you become aware of the fact that you are atheist. I'm sure, though, as you do here, you voiced your status on it, so simply count yourself lucky that you weren't stripped of rank and banned.

I want to make it clear, by the way, that what I post about this situation does not in any way express my opinion, I am simply stating the facts as stated and enforced by the Boy Scouts of America and its subordinate organizations (i.e. Venture Scouts, Order of the Arrow, et cetera).

 

[Maxi]

Oh yeah, scouting in Finland has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the church

 

[CptStern]

but if the venture scouts allow females ...why wouldnt they just go to the girl scouts?

 

[Maxi]

Because it's cool to have girls in your troop, almost all troops in Finland are mix.

 

[No Limit]

What do you people not understand about why the ACLU is doing this? I really don't understand why the right is so against civil liberties that they attack the ACLU around every corner. Here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161881,00.html

ACLU of Illinois spokesman Ed Yohnka said no other youth organization receives millions of dollars in government support, and that the injunction is the latest step toward ending the Scouts' unfair advantage.

Why should the boy scouts, clearly an anti-homosexual institution (aka political institution) receive federal funding (millions of dollars every 4 years) while all other groups are shut out?

 

[CptStern]

Because it's cool to have girls in your troop, almost all troops in Finland are mix.

as it should be

 

[Maxi]

Because they are still doing the community a great service, and that they have trouble getting funding as it is (I know we do).

 

[No Limit]

Because they are still doing the community a great service, and that they have trouble getting funding as it is (I know we do).

They are a group that discriminates; the government has no right to fund these types of groups and they never have. Again, no other youth groups get funding from the government; there is no reason the boy scouts should be different.

But the bottom line is the ACLU has a very clear case; the right wing is simply set on attacking them every chance they get.

 

[Foxtrot]

I'm never been a boyscout (big surprise) so I dont understand the significance of the "venture crew" ..please explain

Venture Crews don't really have any set rules or anything, they are apart of the BSA but are open to anyone in the age range which is 14-21 I think.

Once again, you are incorrect. The Venture Scouts may allow females, but beyond that, the rules to enter are the same--no one may be a homosexual or atheist. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't homosexual or atheists, as you have so many times pointed out, Foxtrot, but if the National Council got wind of it, they would throw them all out. Further, if the National Council of Scouting got wind of the fact that you have the rank of Eagle Scout and were and are an atheist, they would similarly strip you of rank and ban you from the organization for life. That's just the way it is, so I would suggest keeping a lower profile if you actually do care about your Eagle Scout rank. Any how, you said you argued about religion. Simply because you argue about religion doesn't mean those around you become aware of the fact that you are atheist. I'm sure, though, as you do here, you voiced your status on it, so simply count yourself lucky that you weren't stripped of rank and banned.

I want to make it clear, by the way, that what I post about this situation does not in any way express my opinion, I am simply stating the facts as stated and enforced by the Boy Scouts of America and its subordinate organizations (i.e. Venture Scouts, Order of the Arrow, et cetera).

Thing is though, they aren't restricted by any of the rules, they are almost entirley self governed and the BSA doesn't really seem to care what they do. We went paintballing which is against a ton of BSA rules I am assuming.

 

[SOCL]

Venture Crews don't really have any set rules or anything, they are apart of the BSA but are open to anyone in the age range which is 14-21 I think.

Were you in the Venture Scouts? Were you a part of them? If you were, you would know that their official requirements for admitance do not allow homosexuals or atheists. Further, they are subordinate and controlled by the Boy Scouts of America's National Council. They are simply a spin-off group that does more "adventure" oriented acivities with the teen age group as its target participants, but do allow members as old as 21. They tend to be autonomous from regular Boy Scout troops, but are regardless under the same rules and regulations except for the admitance of females.

And I agree with No Limit, the ACLU has a right to question whether the BSA should receive government funds and the use of government property. If the BSA were a public organization that did not discriminate, then it would be a different story, but the facts are the facts. Now, it is also true that without government funds, the BSA would have gone under long ago, but the old rule applies here as it does in most places: Only the strong survive.

We went paintballing which is against a ton of BSA rules I am assuming.

Correct. My crew wasn't allowed to go paintballing because it was against BSA regulations. I never claimed the Venture Crews don't do their 'own thing', but no matter how you look at it, the rules are the rules and you were, quite simply, breaking them. I'm merely trying to get across that it is against OFFICIAL BSA REGULATIONS, REGULATIONS THAT GOVERN VENTURE CREWS.

 

[Razor]

as it should be

No, i prefer the seperate groups for older 10year old+ organisations, less complicated in terms of sex, etc. Plus it makes it a lot easier to mix as you're all guys/girls out in the wilderness just being guys/girls, mixing can make that more complicated in my opinion.

 

[CptStern]

see if boys and girls werent split up in the first place there wouldnt be any hangups around co-ed activities ..the sooner we dispell all the stupid morality based taboos the better

 

[Maxi]

Well we haven't had ANY problems with it.

 

[Kebean PFC]

see if boys and girls werent split up in the first place there wouldnt be any hangups around co-ed activities ..the sooner we dispell all the stupid morality based taboos the better

Things like this don't just happen overnight. It would take tens of years for taboos such as these and so strongly enforced as these. What do you mean by co-ed activities? Do you mean team building and the usual stuff you do at camp, or are you talking about letting guys and girls sleep in the same section?

 

[Foxtrot]

Were you in the Venture Scouts? Were you a part of them? If you were, you would know that their official requirements for admitance do not allow homosexuals or atheists. Further, they are subordinate and controlled by the Boy Scouts of America's National Council. They are simply a spin-off group that does more "adventure" oriented acivities with the teen age group as its target participants, but do allow members as old as 21. They tend to be autonomous from regular Boy Scout troops, but are regardless under the same rules and regulations except for the admitance of females.

And I agree with No Limit, the ACLU has a right to question whether the BSA should receive government funds and the use of government property. If the BSA were a public organization that did not discriminate, then it would be a different story, but the facts are the facts. Now, it is also true that without government funds, the BSA would have gone under long ago, but the old rule applies here as it does in most places: Only the strong survive.

Correct. My crew wasn't allowed to go paintballing because it was against BSA regulations. I never claimed the Venture Crews don't do their 'own thing', but no matter how you look at it, the rules are the rules and you were, quite simply, breaking them. I'm merely trying to get across that it is against OFFICIAL BSA REGULATIONS, REGULATIONS THAT GOVERN VENTURE CREWS.

Well you must live in an incredibly conservative or religious area, because where I live, if the BSA tells you how to run your troop, you tell them to **** off. Venture Crews did what they want, no one watches what they do so they can get away with breaking as many of the BSA rules as possible.

 

[CptStern]

girls and boys participating in the same activities = co-ed


oh and it MUST happen overnight ..quickly and effectively ..dont give the morality police time to catch their breath ...look at segregation ...even though it ended at Little Rock (more or less) in a few days it was years in the making

 

[Razor]

see if boys and girls werent split up in the first place there wouldnt be any hangups around co-ed activities ..the sooner we dispell all the stupid morality based taboos the better

I don't know, i think when i was growing up, there were times when i would of loved to just been on a camping trip with a load of other guys where we could do "guy" stuff and not have to worry about any girls.

 

[Kebean PFC]

The public outrage in the US would be extrodinary. Just think of the anti-videogame parents X 4,000,000. What i dont understand is separating them while they are young. I mean even a 10-12 year old still thinks girls have cooties, or at least is a little nervous around them, but nothing is gonna happen. If you put teens together, especially under spotty supervision, something is bound to happen. Even with our ROTC group when we went camping, girls had thier own group of tents, and the guys could not go within 15 meters of the camp without announcing thier presence. So when it was me and my battle-buddies turn to stand watch (from 12 to 2 in the morning) we went over to the girls side of the camp and tickled a few toes, smacked a tent and generally caused mischief, and then sunk away into the night a waited for our shift to end back up at the guys camp. Sounds pretty harmless, but something serious could have happened if we had had a girl persueded to "have a go" earlier. And i know a few of us would have leapt at the chance. So i think that maybe once you get to be a certain age where hormones control you more than your brain, you and the opposite sex should be separated. But i dont see a problem with co-ed activities when you are younger.

Whjat i mean by co-ed is sleeping in close proximity. Once we were up, the girls did all the stuff the guys did. They just had less strict time standards.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Alright, just got back from the National Boy Scout Jamboree, which is what ACLU was complaining about. The president told us that the military will still support the boy scouts and we can use their land, it did some other stuff too, but the main point being we can still use their land.

By the way, there were a good many girls there, venture crew and I think a few girl scout troops showed up.

Oh, and it's the tropps that decide what happens. We were told to do stuff by upper authority and we didn't do it at all because we felt it was ridiculous. So don't try to pin anything on BSA as it's all troop ran, upper BSA really only sets guidelines and helps things run.

 

[CptStern]

okay then go up to your scoutmaster (err teacher, guide, barker of orders etc) and say these words:



"I am gay"



if it's the troops that decide policy then there should be no problem ......right?

 

[Glirk Dient]

Actually, that is one rule that is enforced all the way through. Scouts cannot discriminate, so gays are allowed.

 

[CptStern]

Actually, that is one rule that is enforced all the way through. Scouts cannot discriminate, so gays are allowed.

nope


"We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirements in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts. Because of these beliefs, the Boy Scouts of America does not accept homosexuals as members or as leaders, whether in volunteer or professional capacities." Boy Scouts of America, Position Statement on Homosexuality, June 1991

"To suggest that the BSA had no policy against active homosexuality is nonsense. It was an organization which from its inception had a God-acknowledged, moral foundation. It required its members, youth and adult, to take the Scout Oath that they would be "morally straight." It is unthinkable that in a society where there was universal governmental condemnation of the act of sodomy as a crime, that the BSA could or would tolerate active homosexuality if discovered in any of its members. . . .Men who do those criminal and immoral acts cannot be held out as role models." Superior Court Judge Patrick J. McGann, in Dale v. Boy Scouts of America, No. Mon-C-330-92

"[BSA's] witnesses all rely upon their own personal interpretation of the words "morally straight" and "clean" which they believe proscribe homosexuality. These views were epitomized by the testimony of William McClaughlin, the Director of Personnel Administration for the National Council of Boy Scouts of America. . . .McCloughlin testified that the reference in the Scout Oath and Law to sexual orientation was in the words "morally straight" and "clean." He stated that . . . in his application of the BSA guidelines on a national level, all behavior related to homosexual orientation is "immoral or indecent." He testified that he did not think that a gay man is able to devote himself to others, simply because he is gay." Excerpt from final ruling from the Chicago Commission on Human Relations, G. Keith Richardson v. Chicago Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

The ACLU is right. You don't want to start down slippery slides or even begin to provide government concessions to discrete groups with private adgendas, no matter how supposedly "wholesome". If the military wants the public to use its space it should make it public on a first-come, first-serve basis, or not at all.

The fact that the scouts have issues with homophobia and are an organization that promotes or expects certain religious classification makes it all the more clear that the ACLU is correct in its objections.

The ACLU is not out there to ruin your fun out of pure malevolence. As one good man put it, "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way."

Good post.