Boy Scouts and "government funding"

Umm stern, try to find something updated. When we are talking about a few day old act 15 year old material isn't so up to date. Scouts has changed a lot, it changes a lot within a year in fact.
 
well then it should be easy for you to find something that says they allow gays foxtr. ..errr glirk
 
Q. Don't Boy Scouts discriminate against gays and atheists?

A. Boy Scouts of America is one of the most diverse youth groups in the country, serving boys of every ethnicity, religion, and economic circumstance and having programs for older teens of both sexes. That Boy Scouts also has traditional values, like requiring youth to do their "duty to God" and be "morally straight" is nothing to be ashamed of and should not be controversial. No court case has ever held that Boy Scouts discriminates unlawfully, and it is unfortunate here that anyone would characterized Boy Scouts' constitutionally protected right to hold traditional values as "discriminatory." That is just name-calling.
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http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm


Hmm, this seems to be more an "if they find out let them deal with it" ruling. This basically means the adults would need to deem something like this to be not morally straight in their eyes.
 
umm



May an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual be a volunteer Scout leader?

A. No. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership organization; leadership in Boy Scouting is a privilege and not a right.


Q. May a group of individuals who openly profess to be homosexuals obtain a unit charter?

A. No.
 
Youth are still allowed, and besides if they don't say anything then there are no problems.

Also at the jambo people were saying the BSA no longer discriminates, I can't seem to find anything to back that up so this may be a rumor or hasn't been publically announced yet.
 
I highly doubt they'd flip flop on their policy ..considering it's been in place god knows how long

and no ...gay members are not allowed

unless you can come up with more compelling evidence than this that the BSA doesnt allow gays my point stands ...you'll have to do better than using your "jambo" as a source


The Boy Scouts is a private, not-for-profit organization engaged in instilling its system of values in young people. The Boy Scouts asserts that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the values it seeks to instill. Respondent is James Dale, a former Eagle Scout whose adult membership in the Boy Scouts was revoked when the Boy Scouts learned that he is an avowed homosexual and gay rights activist. The New Jersey Supreme Court held that New Jersey’s public accommodations law requires that the Boy Scouts admit Dale. This case presents the question whether applying New Jersey’s public accommodations law in this way violates the Boy Scouts’ First Amendment right of expressive association. We hold that it does.

- BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA AND MONMOUTH COUNCIL, et al., PETITIONERS v. JAMES DALE, June 28, 2000


the court ruled that since the BSA is a private organization they are allowed to discriminate



..atheists are not allowed as well:


"Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

A. No. "


that's discrimination but since they are a PRIVATE organization they are allowed to discriminate
 
Glirk Dient said:
Alright, just got back from the National Boy Scout Jamboree, which is what ACLU was complaining about.
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Do you not agree that the ACLU has a clear and very good case?

Don't get me wrong, the BSA can be as homophobic as they want to be, it is a private organization as they put it. However, these private organizations have absolutely no right to spend millions of my money to support their homophobic nature.
 
They can because the boy scouts ties closely with the military and that is where the military gets its best recruits so the military is going to support boy scouts as much as possible.

By the way stern, how do you know I am not atheist? I am also an eagle scout, how is that possible?
 
ok well then go up to whomevers in charge and say as much, shouldnt be a problem right?


Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

A. No. "
 
Not all adults care. There are even atheist adult leaders.

Besides, they choose to be gay, so if they want to be in scouts and they actually believe they would instantly be kicked then maybe they wouldn't say anything about that.
 
Glirk Dient said:
They can because the boy scouts ties closely with the military and that is where the military gets its best recruits so the military is going to support boy scouts as much as possible.

By the way stern, how do you know I am not atheist? I am also an eagle scout, how is that possible?
Click to expand...
I asked you a simple question, you didn't seem to understand. Do you think the ACLU has a right to sue the government over this when it is clear that no other private organization gets funding from the government? Your "brother" seemed to be upset with the ACLU over this, I just need your position.
 
Glirk Dient said:
Besides, they choose to be gay, so if they want to be in scouts and they actually believe they would instantly be kicked then maybe they wouldn't say anything about that.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you know better than every psychiatrist on this planet. That is the mentality of a Republican they know better than any expert. :dozey:
 
That statement is really hippocritic No Limit.

Back to the issue...gays aren't allowed in the military, well they can't do homosexual acts anyways. They just don't talk about it and it is fine. Why not go sue the government over that? Works the same way with scouts.

To answer your question No Limit, which I did answer earlier. Of course they have the right to sue the government for this, it seems like a good reason too. What they don't realize is that the boy scouts are what they military gets some of its best recruits from. The scouts teach kids a lot of what the military does and gets kids ready for the military. That is why the government supports it is because they benefit from that organization.
 
Glirk Dient said:
That statement is really hippocritic No Limit.
Click to expand...
No, it really isn't. Find me one expert in the area that agrees with your OPINION.
Back to the issue...gays aren't allowed in the military, well they can't do homosexual acts anyways. They just don't talk about it and it is fine. Why not go sue the government over that? Works the same way with scouts.
Click to expand...
They did sue and we finally made progress. Now as you said you can be gay as long as you don't talk about it. We still have a ways to go but we are getting there.
To answer your question No Limit, which I did answer earlier. Of course they have the right to sue the government for this, it seems like a good reason too.
Click to expand...
Your brother doesn't seem to agree but I'm glad you do.
What they don't realize is that the boy scouts are what they military gets some of its best recruits from. The scouts teach kids a lot of what the military does and gets kids ready for the military. That is why the government supports it is because they benefit from that organization.
Click to expand...
The military has many other places they get recruits from, such as PUBLIC schools. If Boy Scouts of America want to follow the rules and become a PUBLIC organization they can; however, as they claim to defend their homophobia, they are a private organization and they don't have to follow the rules which is why they can't get funding from my wallet.
 
It's threads like these that make me really thankful for people like Cpt. Stern and No Limit.
 
I am not going to hijack this thread and turn it into a homosexual argument(no pun intended). To put your statement into reality...you assume I think that everyone agrees with my statement. On top of that you assume every psyciatrist agrees with your opinions.

I honeslty wouldn't hop on any wagon the ACLU is heading No Limit, with their rather anti-american track record, they aren't doing us any good. Anyways, back to the topic. Public schools don't teach camping, discipline and most importantly leadership. Scouts trains kids to be leaders, school trains kids to learn. Scouts is a lot like the military, and has been closely tied to the military for a long time. To continue that bond only helps our country, it also keeps kids doing something positive. It is hard to believe people want to attack a private organization that is beneficial to americas youth. What's next? Take away public schools because you have to pay for them and don't get to choose your kids curriculum?
 
Oreilly?, you link to that idiot Oreilly? ...please could you at least use a real journalist?


"The American Civil Liberties Union, or ACLU, is a non-governmental organization devoted to defending civil rights and civil liberties in the United States. Lawsuits brought by the ACLU have been central to several important developments in U.S. constitutional law."


read it
 
Read the article I posted and try to prove it wrong. It states facts.

The ACLU opposes allowing the feds to have floating wiretaps that would monitor cell phone conversations of suspected terrorists. It opposes American civilians assisting the border patrol — you remember the ACLU went to Arizona to monitor the Minutemen (search). It opposes profiling of suspected terrorists. It opposes military tribunals to try captured terrorists. It opposes coerced interrogations of captured terrorists. It has demanded that more pictures of Americans abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib (search) be released, knowing that would help Al Qaeda (search) recruitment.

The ACLU opposes the sharing of information about suspected terrorists and sued to stop New York state from participating in MATRIX, the Multistate Anti-terrorism Information Exchange.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the ACLU has supported the KKK and neo-nazis and now terrorists. If that is who they support, I think it is safe to say they are a danger to american people. Also, it should be called the LCLU, L standing for liberal as they support an agenda and not the american people.
 
I could explain how in each case they've defended civil rights but I dont think you'd grasp the ideas presented which is ironic seeing as how americans hold the bill of rights in the highest of lights


...they've also represented the KKK (you'd know that if you had read the link I posted) and Ollie North. Civil rights is still civil rights
 
I must have edited my post the same time that you posted yours.

Anyways, with their track record they sure don't look good. Sure they have done some good, but they have also done a whole lot of bad, especially recently. With terrorists all over the world, it is a blessing the ACLU hasn't been able to get very far when it comes to terrorism or else we would all be dead by now.
 
Glirk Dient said:
I must have edited my post the same time that you posted yours.

Anyways, with their track record they sure don't look good. Sure they have done some good, but they have also done a whole lot of bad, especially recently. With terrorists all over the world, it is a blessing the ACLU hasn't been able to get very far when it comes to terrorism or else we would all be dead by now.
Click to expand...


how? by protecting freedom of speech? ...I can tell you didnt read the link I gave you ...either end this discussion right now, or read what I've linked ...there's no use in arguing points when you dont even read the supplied material
 
Straight from your link.

The organization believes that free speech rights must be available to all citizens of the United States. Therefore, it has taken on unpopular cases to defend the free speech rights of clients such as Ku Klux Klan members, neo-Nazi groups, and NAMBLA, a group which supports legalization of pederasty.
Click to expand...

So they support the KKK harassing other people based on skin color, they support Nazi's doing the same, and they also support men having sex with underage boys.

To top it off they now support terrorism. I can see where they defend freedom of speech and I am all for that but they don't stop. They don't realize that there is a line where your freedoms start to infringe on someone elses freedom's and it is those cases they need to back off. Also, they don't care about certain freedoms that need to be saccrificed once in a while to protect american lives so we can have a free nation. They would be a good cause if they didn't support an agenda and went after their original purpose.
 
"The organization believes that free speech rights must be available to all citizens of the United States"


oh and show where they "support" terrorism?
 
The ACLU opposes allowing the feds to have floating wiretaps that would monitor cell phone conversations of suspected terrorists. It opposes American civilians assisting the border patrol — you remember the ACLU went to Arizona to monitor the Minutemen (search). It opposes profiling of suspected terrorists. It opposes military tribunals to try captured terrorists. It opposes coerced interrogations of captured terrorists. It has demanded that more pictures of Americans abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib (search) be released, knowing that would help Al Qaeda (search) recruitment.

The ACLU opposes the sharing of information about suspected terrorists and sued to stop New York state from participating in MATRIX, the Multistate Anti-terrorism Information Exchange.
Click to expand...
Here is how they support terrorism, they are against us protecting ourselves from being blown up and dying.

Again, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying or perhaps I am not explaining it well. Just because they believe in a good cause doesn't mean everything they do is "right". The fact is that they want free speech in any way possible no matter what. You have to limit peoples freedoms for the better good and to protect other peoples freedoms. This is why you can't go on an airplane and say bomb. This is why you can't run around the capitol with a loaded weapon saying your going to kill everyone. We need to limit individuals freedoms to protect other peoples freedoms. They still have the right to those freedoms, just it is limited to protect other freedoms.
 
Glirk Dient said:
Here is how they support terrorism, they are against us protecting ourselves from being blown up and dying.

Again, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying or perhaps I am not explaining it well. Just because they believe in a good cause doesn't mean everything they do is "right". The fact is that they want free speech in any way possible no matter what. You have to limit peoples freedoms for the better good and to protect other peoples freedoms. This is why you can't go on an airplane and say bomb. This is why you can't run around the capitol with a loaded weapon saying your going to kill everyone. We need to limit individuals freedoms to protect other peoples freedoms. They still have the right to those freedoms, just it is limited to protect other freedoms.
Click to expand...

protect their freedom? please you're giving it away one piece at a time
 
Hardly, the limits on our freedoms are necessary. Without them we would have terrorists running rampant, KKK meeting at every school and nazi hate and propaganda at our capitals and to top it off we would have men having sex with young boys in our streets. Honestly, I am glad to limit my freedoms so none of that happens.
 
......................... there's no use in continuing this conversation
 
Glirk Dient said:
I am not going to hijack this thread and turn it into a homosexual argument(no pun intended). To put your statement into reality...you assume I think that everyone agrees with my statement. On top of that you assume every psyciatrist agrees with your opinions.
Click to expand...
Find me one expert that agrees with your opinion. I assuming you are not an expert, so why wont you examine what an expert says and make an opinion based on that.
I honeslty wouldn't hop on any wagon the ACLU is heading No Limit, with their rather anti-american track record, they aren't doing us any good.
Click to expand...
Show me one case that is anti-american? You guys spew all this bullshit about them being wrong like your "brother" did in this case but when someone challanges you you have nothing more to say.

Anyways, back to the topic. Public schools don't teach camping, discipline and most importantly leadership. Scouts trains kids to be leaders, school trains kids to learn. Scouts is a lot like the military, and has been closely tied to the military for a long time. To continue that bond only helps our country, it also keeps kids doing something positive. It is hard to believe people want to attack a private organization that is beneficial to americas youth. What's next? Take away public schools because you have to pay for them and don't get to choose your kids curriculum?
Click to expand...
You are completely missing the point and have no idea what is going on here. The scouts claim they are a private organization. They do this so they can discriminate. And I'm okay with that, as a private organization they are free to do what they wish. But as a private organization they have absolutely no right to take millions of my hard earned dollars.

Public schools are public and they have to follow rules, therefore I am perfectly okay with paying for them. If you do not understand this simple concept just do us all a favor and don't waste anymore time by replying. This is just another case of the right being upset with the ACLU so you distort the facts to support that position.
 
Glirk Dient said:
Ohh ok, just because their name doesn't sound evil means they aren't evil? I understand!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164837,00.html
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You listen to O'Reilly, I knew it. When I said you did I think you denied it. This explains everything. I won't expect you to actually listen to this as you guys don't like the truth but if you do get a chance look at this:

http://mediamatters.org/archives/search.html?string=oreilly

O'Reilly is a liar and he is chicken shit. He claims media matters is a nazi organization but when David Brock (their founder and originally a Republican) wants to debate O'Reilly he hides under his desk. And whats sad is you listen to his lies and take them as gospel. Honestly, you coming out of the closet and admitting you listen to O'Reilly makes me understand that no rational person could ever have a rational debate with you as you have proven so many times before.
 
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1160065/posts

There is your article with experts.

I have posted why the ACLU is anti-american...because they support terrorists who want to kill americans.

Back to scouts...Why do we send humanitarian aid to other countries? Why do we try to help other countries to become sucessfull? Why waste our money on that crap? We do it because it is in our interest because it benefits our country. The same thing with scouts, they benefit our country by turning kids into outstanding members of society and great members of the military. When scouts are allowed to use government land, it is really just a very large recruiting event. At the jamboree every branch had stations set up to get kids interested, the army had an entire adventure area set up to get kids interested.

About me watching O'Rielly...you jump to conclusions way to much. I link to an article of his and all of a sudden im a blubbering O'Rielly fanboy? I don't even watch TV much less news on TV and even less O'Rielly. I get my news from sites and the many forums I visit. Try not to be a bigot.
 
Glirk Dient said:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1160065/posts

There is your article with experts.
Click to expand...


your article omits huge portions of the rulings. He took things out of context to suit his agenda ...first of all

"the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as "reparative" or conversion therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation"


"Firstly, they are at odds with the scientific position of the American Psychiatric Association which has maintained, since 1973, that homosexuality per se, is not a mental disorder."

"In recent years, noted practitioners of "reparative" therapy have openly integrated older psychoanalytic theories that pathologize homosexuality with traditional religious beliefs condemning homosexuality"

1. APA affirms its 1973 position that homosexuality per se is not a diagnosable mental disorder. Recent publicized efforts to repathologize homosexuality by claiming that it can be cured are often guided not by rigorous scientific or psychiatric research, but sometimes by religious and political forces opposed to full civil rights for gay men and lesbians. APA recommends that the APA respond quickly and appropriately as a scientific organization when claims that homosexuality is a curable illness are made by political or religious groups.


There is an APA 1997 Fact Sheet on Homosexual and Bisexual Issues which states that there is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation. The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.

Glirk Dient said:
I have posted why the ACLU is anti-american...because they support terrorists who want to kill americans.
Click to expand...


I wont touch that with a 12 foot pole ..how anyone could argue that is beyond me ..there really is no sense in discussing it because you dont understand the issues behind it
 
Glirk Dient said:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1160065/posts

There is your article with experts.
Click to expand...
So, if atheists could be changed into Christians (or the other way around) by something like "reparative therapy" do you think they should be forced to either convert or face discrimination? That would just be sickening... and I wouldn't stand for it. If it's not biological, the option should be there if they really want to become heterosexual, but it shouldn't be forced... or should we strive to eliminate homosexuality just because some people think it's not natural (which it obviously is, biological or not, as it has been documented as far back as history can distinguish and is not exclusive to humans)?

Glirk Dient said:
I have posted why the ACLU is anti-american...because they support terrorists who want to kill americans.
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No, you have posted how they aren't being hypocritical. Their job is to protect all people's civil liberties. If they cried "foul!" for certain groups that they disagree with on certain issues they would be hypocrites... and you would probably be attacking them for that, instead. I don't remember if you, specifically, are a Christian... well, even if you aren't this will apply to the "religious right": Doesn't the Bible tell you to love your enemies, treat them with respect, and help/defend them when they are in need/trouble? Yeah, that's right. It does. Look it up.

Glirk Dient said:
Back to scouts...Why do we send humanitarian aid to other countries? Why do we try to help other countries to become sucessfull? Why waste our money on that crap? We do it because it is in our interest because it benefits our country. The same thing with scouts, they benefit our country by turning kids into outstanding members of society and great members of the military. When scouts are allowed to use government land, it is really just a very large recruiting event. At the jamboree every branch had stations set up to get kids interested, the army had an entire adventure area set up to get kids interested.
Click to expand...
We give humanitarian aid just because it benefits us? Wow... that's just pathetic. I hope we don't do it for that reason. I know I don't help people to get things in return (other than the satisfaction of helping someone). Also, it doesn't matter why the scouts are helped by the government... just that if they want to continue receiving assistance they should have to be officially indiscriminatory, like other organizations that receive government assistance. The government should promote equality and acceptance of people of all walks of life whenever possible... and helping an organization that has basically officially stated that it discriminates against non-religious and homosexual people is not helping that cause.

Glirk Dient said:
Try not to be a bigot.
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Tell that to O'Reilly. People have a valid reason to not listen to anything O'Reilly says... because he's a jerk and has been caught several times blatantly lying on his show, guest appearances on other shows, interviews, and in his books. Think of him as the boy who cried "wolf"... only, in his case, replace wolf with one of the following: liberal, terrorist, anti-american, traitor, or anything else he frequently uses as insults. His most common strategy, from my experience, is to skip the issues and go directly into attacking his opponent's character to try to devalue their opinions. Sadly, that's apparently what qualifies as journalism today. Now, let me compare him to Jon Stewart. I know both Bill and Jon are biased in opposite directions (though, probably not to the same degree) but if you compare their interviewing/debating styles, especially with people that disagree with them, it's easy to see that Bill is an ass. I can't ever remember a time where anyone has gotten angry to the point of yelling and hurling insults on a Daily Show interview... but that's actually a common occurance on Bill's show. Despite it being a comedy show, if the guest wants a serious debate Jon Stewart will give them one... and holds his own, intellectually, rather well. The part I respect most, though, is how he speaks to everyone as equals, remains humble (even self-deprecating at times), and can defuse a tense situation before it turns hostile... whereas Bill O'Reilly is condescending, pompous, and provokes hostility. So, solely for the sake of preserving journalism, please avoid using Bill O'Reilly as a reference.
 
Glirk Dient said:
About me watching O'Rielly...you jump to conclusions way to much. I link to an article of his and all of a sudden im a blubbering O'Rielly fanboy? I don't even watch TV much less news on TV and even less O'Rielly. I get my news from sites and the many forums I visit. Try not to be a bigot.
Click to expand...
What you say are direct talking points taken from O'Reilly. Case and point:

I have posted why the ACLU is anti-american...because they support terrorists who want to kill americans.
Click to expand...

That statement is not only idiotic but it has absolutely no back up; I ask you for examples and you can't give me one.

Back to scouts...Why do we send humanitarian aid to other countries? Why do we try to help other countries to become sucessfull? Why waste our money on that crap? We do it because it is in our interest because it benefits our country. The same thing with scouts, they benefit our country by turning kids into outstanding members of society and great members of the military. When scouts are allowed to use government land, it is really just a very large recruiting event. At the jamboree every branch had stations set up to get kids interested, the army had an entire adventure area set up to get kids interested.
Click to expand...
Again, Boy Scouts of America is a PRIVATE organization. Federal rules prohibid funding for PRIVATE organizations. If BSA wants to stop discriminating and become a public organization they are free to try. However, they do not want to do that so they deserve no money. This is a real simple point which you don't seem to be understanding.

And on the homosexual part I can't believe you cited free republic; another example of your incompetence to look at all sides of the issue fairly. Stern explained it well, I have nothing to add.
 
No Limit said:
That statement is not only idiotic but it has absolutely no back up; I ask you for examples and you can't give me one.
Click to expand...

I won't respond to that until you go and ready this thread. I have given examples.

The government is allowing scouts to use their land, not money. There is a difference.
 
Glirk Dient said:
I won't respond to that until you go and ready this thread. I have given examples.
Click to expand...
There is 11 pages. I searched and couldn't find any clear example.

Unless you are talking about this:

The ACLU opposes allowing the feds to have floating wiretaps that would monitor cell phone conversations of suspected terrorists. It opposes American civilians assisting the border patrol — you remember the ACLU went to Arizona to monitor the Minutemen (search). It opposes profiling of suspected terrorists. It opposes military tribunals to try captured terrorists. It opposes coerced interrogations of captured terrorists. It has demanded that more pictures of Americans abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib (search) be released, knowing that would help Al Qaeda (search) recruitment.

The ACLU opposes the sharing of information about suspected terrorists and sued to stop New York state from participating in MATRIX, the Multistate Anti-terrorism Information Exchange.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I need a source and I need an actual law suit.
The government is allowing scouts to use their land, not money. There is a difference.
Click to expand...
No there isn't a difference, giving that land for that time is costing tax payers millions of dollars.
 
Millions of dollars?

With that outrageous of a claim, you are going to need a source.

As for the source for the lawsuit...search for it yourself if your going to play that game.
 
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