China threatens nukes against America

[RakuraiTenjin]

There sure is. There's also a thing called "grossly biased budgets". You know, the kind of budgets that allocate x amount of money to department a whilst spending far far far less on departments that will have a better effect on the general well-being of the populous the governement is supposed to serve.

But y'know, whatever.

Instating an upgrading program won't cause that.

 

[el Chi]

My point is, the US military budget really wouldn't be hurt by a little pruning hither and thither. It's not as if the arsenal isn't ridiculously big enough WITHOUT adding neutron bombs to that terrifying, apocalyptic inventory.

 

[Foxtrot]

My point is, the US military budget really wouldn't be hurt by a little pruning hither and thither. It's not as if the arsenal isn't ridiculously big enough WITHOUT adding neutron bombs to that terrifying, apocalyptic inventory.

It isn't that we need to add them to have a bigger stockpile, we need them because they are more practical. A lot like fast breed reactors.

 

[el Chi]

I know that, but my point is I would consider healthcare and education to be priorities over buying more weapons. Make the schools, hospitals and industries more efficient, not the military which is already FAR in advance of most of the rest of the countries on the planet.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I know that, but my point is I would consider healthcare and education to be priorities over buying more weapons. Make the schools, hospitals and industries more efficient, not the military which is already FAR in advance of most of the rest of the countries on the planet.

We need to keep it far advanced. The Clinton years brought it back a couple of big steps, and there's a strain on it now. Our Air Force was already starting to be put in danger by increasing skills of other nation's pilots, but luckily we've now finally started production of the F/A-22 and F-35 to stay ahead of the competition, we need to do the same with our large scale weapons.

 

[el Chi]

We need to keep it far advanced. The Clinton years brought it back a couple of big steps, and there's a strain on it now. Our Air Force was already starting to be put in danger by increasing skills of other nation's pilots, but luckily we've now finally started production of the F/A-22 and F-35 to stay ahead of the competition, we need to do the same with our large scale weapons.

But you don't. You really really don't always need to be on the absolute forefront of military advancement. Your military might should be considered after education and healthcare, but it never is. I just find it rather sad, because you just seem to be chasing your own tail.

 

[Foxtrot]

But you don't. You really really don't always need to be on the absolute forefront of military advancement. Your military might should be considered after education and healthcare, but it never is. I just find it rather sad, because you just seem to be chasing your own tail.

Education and healthcare won't matter if we are working in forced labor camps in China.

 

[Absinthe]

Education and healthcare won't matter if we are working in forced labor camps in China.

Which is such a remote possibility at this point that it shouldn't even be considered.

 

[Foxtrot]

Which is such a remote possibility at this point that it shouldn't even be considered.

Wrong. If we spent more money on healthcare and education than we do now China would be able to easily overtake us, and why not? They would have the most powerful military in the world.

 

[Absinthe]

China's not going to invade at the drop of a hat. That's your paranoia, right there. Furthermore, we are far more technologically advanced than China is. A conflict would result in stupidly high casualties. Do you think that China (who aren't even our enemies, by the way) would attack for the Hell of it?

I wonder how all those non-super power countries manage to function without the position of being top dog.

Any way, my point is that I agree with Chi in that our budget could be evened out more. You argue that other areas shouldn't have priority in the face of potential danger. If that's the case (and it always will be), then when will they, if ever, be a priority?

 

[Foxtrot]

China's not going to invade at the drop of a hat. That's your paranoia, right there. Furthermore, we are far more technologically advanced than China is. A conflict would result in stupidly high casualties. Do you think that China (who aren't even our enemies, by the way) would attack for the Hell of it?

I wonder how all those non-super power countries manage to function without the position of being top dog.

Any way, my point is that I agree with Chi in that our budget could be evened out more. You argue that other areas shouldn't have priority in the face of potential danger. If that's the case (and it always will be), then when will they, if ever, be a priority?

They don't need nearly as much money, and that is why they will never be the #1 expense. Think of it like this, the sports teams that have the most money are usually the ones that win (even more so without a cap) so we have to keep up with everyone else by advancing our technology and military. We need to have a good enough defense system that any country that would want to invade would be detered because of the high amount of casualties that we would inflifct on them.

Imagine if we always spent more money on our healthcare and education, where would we be now? Where would the world be?

 

[CptStern]

oh I dont know ...a safer, healthier more educated world?

 

[Foxtrot]

oh I dont know ...a safer, healthier more educated world?

Under Nazi rule. Safer because all criminals are killed, and cleaner because all jews and handicapped are dead?

 

[CptStern]

ah come on he wouldnt have risen to power in the first place

 

[Foxtrot]

ah come on he wouldnt have risen to power in the first place

Ah I meant just the US, but that is true.

 

[Sir Phoenixx]

How would he have been prevented from coming to power by us not spending money on our millitary?

 

[Foxtrot]

How would he have been prevented from coming to power by us not spending money on our millitary?

He thought I meant Germany wasn't spending money as well.

 

[Gray Fox]

Yes but see times change, there is no more nazi germany, there is no more evil communist russia, at that time you has an excuse to spend that much money and time on to the military. Now you don't, china will not invade you, england will not take over canada. You might as wll say you need that money to keep the Empire of Roma at bay.

Secondly, now I might be wrong, but as far as I know a neutron bom releases a lot more radiation then a conventional nuke, because the conventional uses more of the energy to blow stuff up. meaning that a neutron leaves al ot more radiation behind, and thus rendering the envoirment unsustainible for life for a longer period of time.

 

[CptStern]

He thought I meant Germany wasn't spending money as well.

yes ..actually I thought you meant the world as a whole ..not just the US

 

[VictimOfScience]

Actually the US mostly helped the croations and muslims against serb paramiliteries.

My point exactly: Help that was not entirely unlike helping the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan fight off the Soviet threat in the 80s and we all know that a haven for Islamic fundamentalists flourished there and it became a major terrorist training center. Then in the 2001 invasion we were met with the guns that we gave them. I can't watch Rambo 3 anymore without feeling sick to my stomach. We helped fund all of their efforts because we were afraid of the expanding Communist threat that Russia posed. Russia was seen by the mujahideen in Afhganistan as crusaders who wanted to defile Islam, much like the fighters in Iraq see the US today. How quickly the worm turns....

 

[CptStern]

hehe ya I saw rambo 3 awhile back ...that scene were stallone is walking thru the afghan village full of mujideen praising them as heros and victem of russian brutality ...they make them sound like heros fighting for freedom (cue patriotic music) ...well we all know how that turned out

 

[Icarusintel]

hehe ya I saw rambo 3 awhile back ...that scene were stallone is walking thru the afghan village full of mujideen praising them as heros and victem of russian brutality ...they make them sound like heros fighting for freedom (cue patriotic music) ...well we all know how that turned out

for the record, Rambo 3 sucks ass, but its a great movie to make jokes and laugh about... like where he blows up the helicopter with an explosive-tipped arrow... i saw that and i was like, wtf:rolling:

 

[CptStern]

or the fact that every character is a one-dimensional stereotype ..the americans are good (lol) the russians are evil and the afghanis are heroic

 

[Icarusintel]

or the fact that every character is a one-dimensional stereotype ..the americans are good (lol) the russians are evil and the afghanis are heroic

my brother and i watched it, he's 13, and we just made jokes about it the whole way through, which made it watchable, but it was still shite

on topic... why would they shoot nukes at us when they could just throw some of their citizens into the pacific and form a human bridge and walk across the pacific?

 

[Gray Fox]

My point exactly: Help that was not entirely unlike helping the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan fight off the Soviet threat in the 80s and we all know that a haven for Islamic fundamentalists flourished there and it became a major terrorist training center. Then in the 2001 invasion we were met with the guns that we gave them. I can't watch Rambo 3 anymore without feeling sick to my stomach. We helped fund all of their efforts because we were afraid of the expanding Communist threat that Russia posed. Russia was seen by the mujahideen in Afhganistan as crusaders who wanted to defile Islam, much like the fighters in Iraq see the US today. How quickly the worm turns....

So we should have just let them be slaughterd, dude you know jack shit about bosnia, it's hardly a fundamentalist heaven, the bosnian muslims frown more upon the fundies then most westeners, the people there had been slaghterd. the only thing the US did wrong was not protect the serbs when angry croatians and muslims went on a revenge killing spree on innocent citizens.

 

[VictimOfScience]

So we should have just let them be slaughterd, dude you know jack shit about bosnia, it's hardly a fundamentalist heaven, the bosnian muslims frown more upon the fundies then most westeners, the people there had been slaghterd. the only thing the US did wrong was not protect the serbs when angry croatians and muslims went on a revenge killing spree on innocent citizens.

No need for the foul and insulting language friend, but since you are the Bosnia expert you must have heard these quotes before and ignored them:

"'There is no question that the policy of getting arms into Bosnia was of great assistance in allowing the Iranians to dig in and create good relations with the Bosnian government,' a senior CIA officer told Congress in a classified deposition. 'And it is a thing we will live to regret because when they blow up some Americans, as they no doubt will before this . . . thing is over, it will be in part because the Iranians were able to have the time and contacts to establish themselves well in Bosnia.'" ["Iran Gave Bosnia Leader $500,000, CIA Alleges: Classified Report Says Izetbegovic Has Been 'Co-Opted,' Contradicting U.S. Public Assertion of Rift," Los Angeles Times, 12/31/96. Ellipses in original. Alija Izetbegovic is the Muslim president of Bosnia.]

"'If you read President Izetbegovic's writings, as I have, there is no doubt that he is an Islamic fundamentalist,' said a senior Western diplomat with long experience in the region. 'He is a very nice fundamentalist, but he is still a fundamentalist. This has not changed. His goal is to establish a Muslim state in Bosnia, and the Serbs and Croats understand this better than the rest of us.'" ["Bosnian Leader Hails Islam at Election Rallies," New York Times, 9/2/96]

Some more food for thought for you to chew on can be found here.

 

[kirovman]

Problem is most people believe China is "teh evil outpost of tyranny and commies"

when in reality they are a top trading partner in the world, and their citizens lives are improving vastly every year. They are trying to expose corruption everywhere within the heirachy of the communist party, because without combatting that you have no law, you have anarchy.

Ruling 1.4 billion people is a mammoth task, especially for a developing and rapidly industrialising country, so human rights are not what they seem. The only real power the central government have over the local governments is the army. Which is why they may feel Taiwan is a renegade province. However the main opposition parties have met with the Chinese leaders, and commented later with George Bush: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/20/content_461819.htm

Even Hu Jintao was invited to the G8 meetings in Gleneagles, Scotland for discussions, and Rice met him in China. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/10/content_458850.htm
The Chinese now have a sense of national pride, which before, they didn't have, they did have reeducation during the cultural revolution yes, but now they are extremely patriotic. Before they just allowed themselves to be treated like shit, allowed the western and Japanese nations to walk all over them. Mao Zedong, with a bad reputation in the west, told them to recognise that they are Chinese and should be proud of it. With a lot of blood loss of course and he wasn't blameless for the unnecessary loss of life. Soon they may become one of, if not the most powerful nations in the world.
If that threatens you, you need to ask why? Does their military budget stretch as far as yours?

 

[Gray Fox]

No need for the foul and insulting language friend, but since you are the Bosnia expert you must have heard these quotes before and ignored them:

"'There is no question that the policy of getting arms into Bosnia was of great assistance in allowing the Iranians to dig in and create good relations with the Bosnian government,' a senior CIA officer told Congress in a classified deposition. 'And it is a thing we will live to regret because when they blow up some Americans, as they no doubt will before this . . . thing is over, it will be in part because the Iranians were able to have the time and contacts to establish themselves well in Bosnia.'" ["Iran Gave Bosnia Leader $500,000, CIA Alleges: Classified Report Says Izetbegovic Has Been 'Co-Opted,' Contradicting U.S. Public Assertion of Rift," Los Angeles Times, 12/31/96. Ellipses in original. Alija Izetbegovic is the Muslim president of Bosnia.]

"'If you read President Izetbegovic's writings, as I have, there is no doubt that he is an Islamic fundamentalist,' said a senior Western diplomat with long experience in the region. 'He is a very nice fundamentalist, but he is still a fundamentalist. This has not changed. His goal is to establish a Muslim state in Bosnia, and the Serbs and Croats understand this better than the rest of us.'" ["Bosnian Leader Hails Islam at Election Rallies," New York Times, 9/2/96]

Some more food for thought for you to chew on can be found here.

The reason the iranians helped the bosnian muslims is because no one else did jack shit about it, if the us and the rest of the world intervined earlier then would not have needed iranian help. You increasy the chane that muslims will attack you by massacaring them, not by helping them, no bosnian muslim will blow up an american. Yes it'snot good that they let the iranians help them in the first place, they should have gone in themselfes, and when they did they removed the need for the iranians, thats why most muslims in bosnia are not fundies. And Izetbegovic isn't a fundie by any standards, he was the most humane leader, in teh country, he'ss the one who was most against splitting up the country, he did not want a muslims state above all else, he did not want to split bosna, and get his own part. The only things was that when he was young he was part of a group of of radical muslims, thats it, and that was ina a time where all religion was surpressed.

If you're intersted in learning hostory, trough any other means then the "republican policy commite", reads this book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ne/purchase/ref=pd_sxp_r0/103-2179790-1875044
And if you're to lazy for it, ask wiki, it's not as objectivbe but better then your link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alija_Izetbegovic

 

[Gray Fox]

Problem is most people believe China is "teh evil outpost of tyranny and commies"

when in reality they are a top trading partner in the world, and their citizens lives are improving vastly every year. They are trying to expose corruption everywhere within the heirachy of the communist party, because without combatting that you have no law, you have anarchy.

Ruling 1.4 billion people is a mammoth task, especially for a developing and rapidly industrialising country, so human rights are not what they seem. The only real power the central government have over the local governments is the army. Which is why they may feel Taiwan is a renegade province. However the main opposition parties have met with the Chinese leaders, and commented later with George Bush: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/20/content_461819.htm

Even Hu Jintao was invited to the G8 meetings in Gleneagles, Scotland for discussions, and Rice met him in China. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/10/content_458850.htm
The Chinese now have a sense of national pride, which before, they didn't have, they did have reeducation during the cultural revolution yes, but now they are extremely patriotic. Before they just allowed themselves to be treated like shit, allowed the western and Japanese nations to walk all over them. Mao Zedong, with a bad reputation in the west, told them to recognise that they are Chinese and should be proud of it. With a lot of blood loss of course and he wasn't blameless for the unnecessary loss of life. Soon they may become one of, if not the most powerful nations in the world.
If that threatens you, you need to ask why? Does their military budget stretch as far as yours?

Well maybe casue they allredy have invaded another country, namly tibet, maybe ebcasue they are acting like hitler did in the 1940. Maybe thats why.

 

[kirovman]

Well maybe casue they allredy have invaded another country, namly tibet, maybe ebcasue they are acting like hitler did in the 1940. Maybe thats why.

50 years ago, under the helm of Chairman Mao. They called it a "Liberation". Heh, strange we used the same term when going into Iraq.

 

[Absinthe]

Acting like Hitler?

Grey Fox, choose your comparisons more wisely.

 

[Gray Fox]

50 years ago, under the helm of Chairman Mao. They called it a "Liberation". Heh, strange we used the same term when going into Iraq.

So, why are you saying that to me, I was against the War in Iraq for that very ****ing same reason. + looking back at the kolonial history of the Dutch.

 

[Gray Fox]

Acting like Hitler?

Grey Fox, choose your comparisons more wisely.

I have, and I have statedt he reasons numerous times, they are acting exactly like germany did in 1940, now how about you give some resons next time.

 

[kirovman]

So, why are you saying that to me, I was against the War in Iraq for that very ****ing same reason. + looking back at the kolonial history of the Dutch.

No need to mouth off. You don't have very much respect for people with differing viewpoints do you?

What I'm trying to say is that China is not the "Big bad evil commies" that everyone thinks they are.

It's not like Germany, it's very different. Right now they're trying to build a free market economy, while keeping stability. With a population that size, you can't let riots go out of hand or the entire country descends into anarchy.

They are building national pride, yes, but that's because they have had no national pride previously after being shat on by the Western nations and the Japanese. China have mostly been the victims here, and I have been to China, noone wants any war, they are peaceful people.

 

[Absinthe]

Kirovman pretty much summed up my thoughts on it. And no, you have not supplied any good reasons for your comparison. I need to give reasons? For what? All I can say is that has nothing to do with appeasement. Perhaps expansionism under the guise of liberation, but that was nearly half a century ago. Your linking of the two isn't valid. Especially when one considers the improvements that have been made available to the Chinese people over the years.

No need to mouth off. You don't have very much respect for people with differing viewpoints do you?

You should try arguing over DX:IW with him.

 

[Gray Fox]

]No need to mouth off. You don't have very much respect for people with differing viewpoints do you?
[/B]
What I'm trying to say is that China is not the "Big bad evil commies" that everyone thinks they are.

It's not like Germany, it's very different. Right now they're trying to build a free market economy, while keeping stability. With a population that size, you can't let riots go out of hand or the entire country descends into anarchy.

They are building national pride, yes, b4t that's because they have had no national pride previously after being shat on by the Western nations and the Japanese. China have mostly been the victims here, and I have been to China, noone wants any war, they are peaceful people.

Again wtf, I have eevry respect for different views, but not false accusations and stupidtiy.

As for the rest, it sounds exactly like germany.
As I recall germany lost almost all it's pride after WW1, because they were the ones that got blamed for the WW, there had huges depts, and lost all theiur pride. Hitler restaored that, Germany becaem a new strongly growing kapitalist economy under authoritarian rule. But that wasn't enough, noo. germany had lost an important area in WW1 that now belonged to austria, hitler wanted it back, he wanted reunification of germanic people. We gave in, and look what happend. Now with hitler there was guessing what he wanted, cause he hadn;t invaded another country, but not only has china invaded another country, it has the audacity to want a whole independent country. Just becasue you ****ed a chinese girls and lived there does not mean china is nice country, just because the US us bad, doesn't mean the chinese are better.

 

[kirovman]

Again wtf, I have eevry respect for different views, but not false accusations and stupidtiy.

As for the rest, it sounds exactly like germany.
As I recall germany lost almost all it's pride after WW1, because they were the ones that got blamed for the WW, there had huges depts, and lost all theiur pride. Hitler restaored that, Germany becaem a new strongly growing kapitalist economy under authoritarian rule. But that wasn't enough, noo. germany had lost an important area in WW1 that now belonged to austria, hitler wanted it back, he wanted reunification of germanic people. We gave in, and look what happend. Now with hitler there was guessing what he wanted, cause he hadn;t invaded another country, but not only has china invaded another country, it has the audacity to want a whole independent country. Just becasue you ****ed a chinese girls and lived there does not mean china is nice country, just because the US us bad, doesn't mean the chinese are better.

That's not a very nice thing to say. :|

And I never said the US was bad, China is better. I just don't think they are the big threat everyone seems to think they are. And they never had any pride to begin with, they've only just got it recently. Now they can say "I'm proud to be Chinese, and I know you're proud to be Dutch, and I accept that"

The relationship of China and Taiwan is a lot more complicated than that, I believe I have already discussed it. People in China want a good life they want food, a home, a car, a job a family. They don't want war. Germany industrialised it's war machine primarily. In China, the military focus is small compared with that of say fashion or building highways.

 

[Gray Fox]

They have a big hidden militare budget, their actuallymilitary budget is estimated 4 or 5 times higher. And they did have a lot of pride, thats what led to their seclusion, and what made them an easy pray for the english. China though it was the best country in the world, it secluded itself from the rest of the world, while the rest moved on. Second, I certainly know that it isn't that black and hwit, I know taiwan wasn't a democracy untill recently, I know they could have chosen independence instead of claiming they were the real china. But neither was the situation in 1940.
Oh yeah and I was and real asshole, thx for remaining calm, I apologize for what i said about you, and your girlfriend, I get carried away easly, but I know when I'm wrong.

 

[kirovman]

Well looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't honestly believe they are going down the warpath. From all my travelling around their country they are normal people (with obvious cultural differences) and there are many problems there but I think it's something they are trying to fix. Stamping out corruption, but the central government knows the only way they hold power over the provinces is via the army. They are trying to build a legal system that will remove the need for this.

And they know if they follow Hitler's path, they would face a massive nuclear retalliation. I think they are happy to develop their markets.

And when I meet Chinese people I always argue for Taiwan independence. With Western people I tend to argue against it, just because I'd like to expand my and other people's ideas and understanding on the situation.

 

[VictimOfScience]

The reason the iranians helped the bosnian muslims is because no one else did jack shit about it, if the us and the rest of the world intervined earlier then would not have needed iranian help. You increasy the chane that muslims will attack you by massacaring them, not by helping them, no bosnian muslim will blow up an american. Yes it'snot good that they let the iranians help them in the first place, they should have gone in themselfes, and when they did they removed the need for the iranians, thats why most muslims in bosnia are not fundies. And Izetbegovic isn't a fundie by any standards, he was the most humane leader, in teh country, he'ss the one who was most against splitting up the country, he did not want a muslims state above all else, he did not want to split bosna, and get his own part. The only things was that when he was young he was part of a group of of radical muslims, thats it, and that was ina a time where all religion was surpressed.

If you're intersted in learning hostory, trough any other means then the "republican policy commite", reads this book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ne/purchase/ref=pd_sxp_r0/103-2179790-1875044
And if you're to lazy for it, ask wiki, it's not as objectivbe but better then your link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alija_Izetbegovic

Well, here's a link that's better than any of your links! Nyah! And to tide you over until you decide to click it, here's a quote from Alija Izetbegovic's book, The Islamic Declaration:

"... We would like to distinguish between Jews and Zionists, but only if Jews themselves find strength to find the difference. We hope that the military victories, which they had against quarrelling Arab regimes, (not against Arabs or against Muslims) will not blur their minds. We hope that they will eliminate confrontation which they made by them- selves, so the new road is open to a life on the common ground of Palestine. If they, though, continue on the road of arrogance, which is more likely, then for the whole Islam movement, and FOR ALL MUSLIMS THERE IS BUT ONE SOLUTION: TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, TO STRENGTHEN AND BROADEN IT, FROM DAY TO DAY, FROM YEAR TO YEAR, NO MATTER THE VICTIMS AND NO MATTER THE TIME it may last, until they are forced to RETURN EVERY INCH OF THE OCCUPIED LAND. EVERY NEGOTIATION AND EVERY COMPROMISE ON THIS FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE FOR OUR BROTHERS IN PALESTINE, WILL BE A TREASON WHICH MAY DESTROY THE VERY CORE OF THE MORAL SYSTEM OF OUR WORLD.

These are not new laws of our new Islam politics toward Christians and Jews, not new laws dictated by the new political situation. They are just the practical conclusions taken from the Islamic recognition of Christians and Jews which come right from the Qu'ran." (Qu'ran, 29/45, 2/136, 5/47-49)

pp. 53-54

or

"... In one of the thesis for an Islamic order today we have stated that it is a natural function of the Islamic order to gather all Muslims and Muslim communities throughout the world into one. Under present conditions, this desire means a struggle for creating a great Islamic federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from the tropical Africa to the Central Asia. ..."

p. 46

Nope, no fundamentalists here. No one who wants a Muslim state at all :-\
Of course, this is all off-topic, so agree to disagree with me too? Your view is interesting and worth examining, but this is neither the time nor the place for either of us:cheers: