christian right and Bush; cozy bed fellows

[Foxtrot]

no but I can prove the existence of TV, and that was probably the dumbest thing i've ever heard hahahahahaha!!!! You just keep on thinking "little" people live in your TV and power it foxtrot, and I'll never again question why you are a bush supporter... omg...

Grats, you missed the point. Just so you know, I believe in evolution and I am an Atheist.

 

[$kelet0r]

So why do you support the republicans

 

[GiaOmerta]

Johnny, it's not about religion, or politicial parties for that matter. It's about America.

 

[CptStern]

...ummmm ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....if you were concerned about america you'd never have supported the republicans

 

[Tr0n]

Johnny, it's not about religion, or politicial parties for that matter. It's about America.

Ain't that some bullshit.

 

[Direwolf]

...ummmm ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....if you were concerned about america you'd never have supported the republicans

Oh come on now, thats a cheap shot.

 

[GiaOmerta]

Ain't that some bullshit.

No. It is not. Read my quotes. I don't support any political party and I intend to destroy them. I wouldnt lie to you. My agenda is no secret. Peace Unity and Brotherhood. I'm sick of this inner strife. We are all Americans and citizens of this world.

 

[CptStern]

Oh come on now, thats a cheap shot.

the truth is sometimes cheap :E



I have no idea what that means, but I'm sticking to it

 

[$kelet0r]

free in this case

 

[GiaOmerta]

15-20 years from now, topic will be GiaOmerta and Marine Corps, bedfellows. Right Stern?

 

[CptStern]

no the topic will be


US frees Saddam, makes him Secretary of Defense, plans to invade freedom hating canada gets green light

 

[Absinthe]

What I was saying is that people accept certain things (like the existance of God) just like people accept that a TV works. Very few people know how or why a TV works, they just know that little people are inside their glass and plastic box. And accepting scientific facts you always accept certain other things as a fact, without knowing for sure they are a fact. Like gravity, you can not prove the existance of gravity.

But these scientific facts are falsifiable. Religious teachings are not.

And let's be sensible here. I accept that my TV works because it does work. It turns on, it changes channels, it adjusts volume. When I disconnect it from electricity, it doesn't work. Even if I don't understand how it works, I have more than enough evidence to claim that it does work. The God concept, however, does not have that.

As for the theory of gravity, you are right that we have yet to prove it to be 100% correct. However, it has enough evidence and inductive experience to reasonably believe that gravity exists. I jump, I fall back down to Earth. I step off the Empire State Building, I splat like a bug. And if things change one day, we'll alter the theory. Science is empirical, unlike religion.

 

[Foxtrot]

But these scientific facts are falsifiable. Religious teachings are not.

And let's be sensible here. I accept that my TV works because it does work. It turns on, it changes channels, it adjusts volume. When I disconnect it from electricity, it doesn't work. Even if I don't understand how it works, I have more than enough evidence to claim that it does work. The God concept, however, does not have that.

As for the theory of gravity, you are right that we have yet to prove it to be 100% correct. However, it has enough evidence and inductive experience to reasonably believe that gravity exists. I jump, I fall back down to Earth. I step off the Empire State Building, I splat like a bug. And if things change one day, we'll alter the theory. Science is empirical, unlike religion.

Doesn't religion alter its views from time to time? I wasn't saying they were exactly the same, but they are if you stretch it, and so some really religious people it isnt a stretch at all. I should be the last person debating religion though, I have never once went to church, or really read anything about religion.

 

[GiaOmerta]

Look at the ****ing Catholic Church. Changes more than John Kerry his mind.

 

[Absinthe]

Doesn't religion alter its views from time to time? I wasn't saying they were exactly the same, but they are if you stretch it, and so some really religious people it isnt a stretch at all. I should be the last person debating religion though, I have never once went to church, or really read anything about religion.

It's stretched to the point where the comparison is no longer valid.

Yes, religion has altered its views from time to time, but it's never been based off of empirical evidence. It's like "God used to like chocolate icecream, but now he likes vanilla. So eat vanilla icecream or you'll go to Hell." The most I see is mainstream religious institutions changing their views so they don't alienate supporters, rather than what God truly wants (assuming he exists). Even then it's dependent on who you ask. Some people think God hates homosexuals, some think he doesn't. Some think Hell is eternal, some don't. Some go with the new direction of their church, while others turn to fundamentalism.

 

[Cole]

but he doesn't care, because, guess what, more than 70% of US population is Christian,

Wrong it's about 20%. We checked it out in our World Geography class while we were studying Judism and Muslim.(Which then led to studying everything in the Middle East).
You must remember, the U.S. is from tons of cultures. From Mexico, to all the immigrants from WW2 and all over the world.


Guess what Gravity is a true force!(It makes us fall to earth at 9.8m/s/s) Here on earth everything falls at the same rate, but other forces like Wind Resistance alter that. I mean an electrion goes around a nucleus not just because there attracted to the protons but just because the nucleus is sooo massive compared to it.(A proton\neutron is about 2000x bigger than an electron according to todays science).

You see some people don't believe in evolution, that is why it is "The Theory of Evolution". It is widly known because it has alot of supporting facts behind it.
These Theories are always changing and updating with the latest facts and knowledge that we know. Eventually these Theories may become Facts.

Science does not settle as religion does. Science is always changing and updating itself in order to learn and if you would say even "evolve".
Science is about finding the truth and expanding technologies.
For all I know Science may lead to the findings of God. Well then I believe in god, if that is what Science has found.


I can say right now I do not know how the universe was created. I would like to know, that why I havn't settled and want to know the truth. I have an idea(Big Bang), which is possible though because it may not be possible I am still searching for the truth.

Religion on the other hand pretty much says "This is how it happened".

 

[kmack]

Wrong it's about 20%. We checked it out in our World Geography class while we were studying Judism and Muslim.(Which then led to studying everything in the Middle East).
You must remember, the U.S. is from tons of cultures. From Mexico, to all the immigrants from WW2 and all over the world.

"The proportion of the [American] population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001." i dont think it dropped to 20% since 2001...

 

[GiaOmerta]

Religions:
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

52 + 24 + 2 = 76%

 

[kmack]

Religions:
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

52 + 24 + 2 = 76%

i said 77%, that other guy said 20% lol, talk about off the mark

 

[Absinthe]

You see some people don't believe in evolution, that is why it is "The Theory of Evolution". It is widly known because it has alot of supporting facts behind it.
These Theories are always changing and updating with the latest facts and knowledge that we know. Eventually these Theories may become Facts.

For the record, no credible scientist will argue against evolution. Maybe the small details, but the general concept works. Evolution is fact. The only reason people still dance around the "theory" word is because it's become such a senstivie subject for many religious folk (mainly because they think it goes against their religion).

 

[gh0st]

I'm not one to label anything sensible but, in my mind, many christians believe in evolution as fact, but creation as principle. God created life. Thats not unreasonable to say. Its easy to say the first protazoa was created in a bubbly pit in the middle of a barren wasteland. Its just as easy to say that god created the domino effect of life. I dont see anything unreasonable with it. Life as principle is different than life as fact, its an important distinction.

As for the quotes... as we, as westerners, misquote the word "Jihad" as holy war, when it in fact means conflict (or whatever, bear with me), i'm sure that whichever middle eastern reporter (i assume, its a middle eastern site) quoted bush, and I'm sure that it was taken sliiightly out of context. What I'm saying is theres a language barrier.

 

[GiaOmerta]

i said 77%, that other guy said 20% lol, talk about off the mark

76% as off 2002.

 

[Sparta]

no the topic will be


US frees Saddam, makes him Secretary of Defense, plans to invade freedom hating canada gets green light, gh0st and Saddam lead the way to kill CptStern

Fixed.

 

[Foxtrot]

For the record, no credible scientist will argue against evolution. Maybe the small details, but the general concept works. Evolution is fact. The only reason people still dance around the "theory" word is because it's become such a senstivie subject for many religious folk (mainly because they think it goes against their religion).

But there is zero proof of how life started.

 

[$kelet0r]

so we should say then that a god must have done it and leave at that?
i say we keep looking not bury our heads in the sand

 

[Absinthe]

But there is zero proof of how life started.

Evolution does not explain how we started. It explains how we came to be what we are today. It explains the multiple offshoots in the animal kingdom and the differentiation between species. And it has empirical evidence to support it.

Fundies have issues with that because their the Creationist views believe that God created man as he is today. Never mind that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests otherwise. The only reason people still question evolution is because religion is a major part of society not enough people have had the balls to stand up and say "You're wrong, get with the program".

Besides, even if evolution was proven to be false, that wouldn't be a good enough reason to say "Goddidit".

 

[Direwolf]

I'd like to point out that another reason that Evolution is referred to as a theory is that we have yet to directly observe it (since it takes such incredible amounts of time), and many scientists still disagree over the particulars of how natural selection works. We still haven't nailed down all the tiny little details about it.

 

[kmack]

I'd like to point out that another reason that Evolution is referred to as a theory is that we have yet to directly observe it (since it takes such incredible amounts of time), and many scientists still disagree over the particulars of how natural selection works. We still haven't nailed down all the tiny little details about it.

its a hell of a lot better than creationism in just about every scientific regard.

 

[JellyWorld]

Now, modern research on Intelligence has proven that Mental Speed is the main biological component of Intelligence. So a brain growth deficit reduces Mental Speed and this is why it decreases IQ or intelligence. The brain growth deficit cause a sort of "time dilation" in human perception. Shortly we will discover that it actually is a Relativistic time dilation.

quoted from the website foxtrot mentioned. please don't tell me you're serious...

and btw to clear things up, evolution is not a theory, evolution refers to a phenomenon, and natural selection is the theory used to explain evolution.

 

[Stigmata]

I'd like to point out that another reason that Evolution is referred to as a theory is that we have yet to directly observe it (since it takes such incredible amounts of time), and many scientists still disagree over the particulars of how natural selection works. We still haven't nailed down all the tiny little details about it.

Actually, in a way we observe evolution every time a virus or bacterium strain becomes resistant to its respective vaccine.

 

[operative x]

"I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."
--George W. Bush commenting to Texas evangelist James Robinson in the run-up to his presidential campaign

Sure that sounds crazy, but then again, the biggest terrorist attack ever happened in his presidency, he has had to deal with US economy and a terrorist attack AT the same time, that’s pretty tough job. Since then he has caught thousands of Al Qaeda operatives and caught Suddam Hussein (a mass murderer, so many people seem to forget that) and put him on trial. Whether you’re Christian or not, how can you argue those were bad moves?

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [Hussein], which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
--Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen quoting Bush when they met in Aqaba; reported in The Haaretz Reporter by Arnon Regular

He attacked a terrorist organization, so what? You going tell me that’s a bad thing? Again, he attacked a mass murderer, you going tell me that’s a bad thing too? As I said, Christian or not, how can you argue bringing Saddam to justice is a bad thing?

"I urge all Texans to answer the call to serve those in need. By volunteering their time, energy or resources to helping others, adults and youngsters follow Christ's message of love and service in thought and deed."
"Therefore, I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000, Jesus Day in Texas

What’s wrong with encouraging young teens to help others? Christian or not, how can you argue that volunteering your time, energy and resources to helping others a bad thing? What’s wrong with a day for Christians? They’re a day for blacks (Martin Luther King Day, celebrating for black civil rights) a Jewish holiday, but when there’s a Christian day (not including that corporate ran holiday Christmas) all of a sudden there’s an outcry? Does the day hurt in any way? No, so don’t worry about it.

It seems like half the people attacking Bush, attack him just for the sake of attacking someone. They make a HUGE deal out of nothing. Because of this war on Iraq, your kids won’t have to worry about Saddam Hussein in the future and Iraq's will be free, yet everyone bitches. Too many people just parrot someone else’s opinion and mindlessly argue and put no real thought into what they think. People complain about our government not doing anything to help others, yet when they ACTUALLY have a president of action, people dont stay the course and pussyout when they find out that in war people actually die. Just look at Bush's approval rating early in his presidency, it was like 60% then when we actually go to war, people started to change their mind when they found out people actually die in wars. Don't vote for something you can't hang though.

 

[operative x]

you dont agree? it wasnt the democrats who lied about Iraq

Is that why John Kerry was for the war in the beginning?

 

[kirovman]

He attacked a terrorist organization, so what? You going tell me that’s a bad thing? Again, he attacked a mass murderer, you going tell me that’s a bad thing too? As I said, Christian or not, how can you argue bringing Saddam to justice is a bad thing?

I think the main thing about attacking Saddam was that the US supported him up until the point he invaded Kuwait (when Papa Bush's middle east oil interests were in question). At that point Saddam suddenly became the bad guy. Not from the genocide or murdering.

Also the war was lead on the pretence that he had WMDs.

Why couldn't the administration say "We want to bring a Mass Murderer to justice"? Rather than make excuses? You don't need false excuses if what you are doing is right. I would respect this war far more if they had just come out with everything at the beginning.

 

[operative x]

I think the main thing about attacking Saddam was that the US supported him up until the point he invaded Kuwait (when Papa Bush's middle east oil interests were in question). At that point Saddam suddenly became the bad guy. Not from the genocide or murdering.

People complain about our government not doing anything to help others, yet when they ACTUALLY have a president of action, people dont stay the course and pussyout when they find out that in war people actually die. Just look at Bush's approval rating early in his presidency, it was like 60% then when we actually go to war, people started to change their mind when they found out people actually die in wars. Don't vote for something you can't hang though.

Also the war was lead on the pretence that he had WMDs.

That wasn't the only reason for the war, that was one of the reasons. So what, one turned out to be a bad call? Theres bad calls made about society everysingle day. Polititions lie all the time, Grey Davis lied, Bill Clinton lied, all politions lie.

 

[kmack]

Is that why John Kerry was for the war in the beginning?

he (and most democrats) were for the war because BUSH SAID IRAQ HAD WMDs. under the false information purported by bush, they HAD to agree to the war to save us from WMDs. had bush come out and said, Iraq has no WMD's we want to go to war to liberate them the democrats, independents, and moderate republicans (not to mention the american people, who arent too happy about the war now) would not support it.

 

[kirovman]

People complain about our government not doing anything to help others, yet when they ACTUALLY have a president of action, people dont stay the course and pussyout when they find out that in war people actually die. Just look at Bush's approval rating early in his presidency, it was like 60% then when we actually go to war, people started to change their mind when they found out people actually die in wars. Don't vote for something you can't hang though.

That wasn't the only reason for the war, that was one of the reasons. So what, one turned out to be a bad call? Theres bad calls made about society everysingle day. Polititions lie all the time, Grey Davis lied, Bill Clinton lied, all politions lie.

Depends on what scale. Bill Clinton had sexual relations with an Intern. So what? It wasn't really a decision that killed thousands of people. It was in fact a trivial matter, the only reason it was frowned upon was it was morally unrespectable by the Christian right.

Lies that kill in order to profit are far more serious than lies about trivial matters.

Not that I'm advocating any form of lying.

 

[Direwolf]

To play Devil's Advocate, Clinton did plenty of really, really shady stuff during his eight years. But because of all of the public scandal that surrounded him (Lewinsky etc), a lot of it got pushed to the background.

 

[operative x]

he (and most democrats) were for the war because BUSH SAID IRAQ HAD WMDs.

What, can the democrats not think for themselves?

kirovman= Does the Kosivo conflict ring anybells? Those decision didn't exactly save lives.

Even without the WMD argument we would have eventually gone into Iraq and gotten rid of Saddam anyways. The main reason we went to Iraq was because Saddam was a threat, he killed his own people (and if you say that’s not the US’s problem, don’t make threads saying “Bush ignores Sudan's genocide” Because, after all, according to your logic that’s not the US’s problem.), he invaded other countries, and in fact he did use Bio/Chem weapons in the past. That's a threat.

 

[CptStern]

Even without the WMD argument we would have eventually gone into Iraq and gotten rid of Saddam anyways.

I agree, you have been trying to get into iraq since 91

The main reason we went to Iraq was because Saddam was a threat

saddam was never a threat, although that particular lie is the reason why you went

he killed his own people

you didnt seem to care when he was at his worst, in fact you shielded him on nurmerous occasions

he invaded other countries, and in fact he did use Bio/Chem weapons in the past. That's a threat.

yes no thanks to the US ..hear read these de-classified documents ..it details the lengths the US went to help iraq fight the war including arming BOTH sides with WMD

 

[baxter]

It seems like half the people attacking Bush, attack him just for the sake of attacking someone. They make a HUGE deal out of nothing. Because of this war on Iraq, your kids won’t have to worry about Saddam Hussein in the future and Iraq's will be free, yet everyone bitches. Too many people just parrot someone else’s opinion and mindlessly argue and put no real thought into what they think. People complain about our government not doing anything to help others, yet when they ACTUALLY have a president of action, people dont stay the course and pussyout when they find out that in war people actually die. Just look at Bush's approval rating early in his presidency, it was like 60% then when we actually go to war, people started to change their mind when they found out people actually die in wars. Don't vote for something you can't hang though.

It is easy to attack Bush because he is wrong. Despite what you might think America doen’t actually rule the world and there are other countries on this planet.
As for the deep philosophical argument that my children won’t have to worry about Saddam, did you? Did you really care what was going on in inside Iraq?
Did you nick
As for your , again deep and philosophical believes that that people simply parrot other peoples believes about your government, I’m sorry I thought it was a basic human right to believe what you wanted.
Your president of action has achieved nothing by his declaration of the “war on terror” other than breed more and more terrorists and promote more and more innocent deaths. The terrorists will continue to come and his war will not stop them. Heaven forbid his approval rating should fall.
There is actually a world outside the US. Clinton saw this and did something about it, ever heard of the Camp David Agreement, the Good Friday Agreement… of course sorry Clinton got a blowjob in the Whitehouse so this all counts for nothing.