Closet or Corner Camping

[The Brick]

I think a good fix would be that players can melee each other (maybe in a less drastic way than when you hit zombies).

 

[JFry]

My biggest gripe with closet camping isn't whether it is balanced or realistic or whatever. I think all that stuff is trumped by the simple fact that is utterly boring for both sides. There is no sense of suspense or danger, just hold down right mouse button until the zombies stop coming.. yawn. As infected all you can do is run in and try to get a melee swipe or maybe two. A smoker might be able to get a successful pull if he times it right and gets lucky but it isn't very likely.

I'm also somewhat surprised by how many people get so upset over whether someone closet camps or does the door bash thing or many of the other exploits. This really shouldn't be the player's problem. As a player you should be able to use any means necessary to succeed within the context of the game. I shouldn't need to consult my lawyer to see if it's ok to do something in a video game. If I think something will help me win and I can do it in game, I should be able to do it! If I'm not supposed to be allowed to do something it is up to the developers to code it so that I cannot do it. This doesn't just appy to l4d I feel this way about alot of games it's just that l4d has more gray area than most.

 

[ríomhaire]

I think a good fix would be that players can melee each other (maybe in a less drastic way than when you hit zombies).

That was removed so that people can't knock each other off roofs.

 

[Fiberawptic]

My biggest gripe with closet camping isn't whether it is balanced or realistic or whatever. I think all that stuff is trumped by the simple fact that is utterly boring for both sides. There is no sense of suspense or danger, just hold down right mouse button until the zombies stop coming.. yawn. As infected all you can do is run in and try to get a melee swipe or maybe two. A smoker might be able to get a successful pull if he times it right and gets lucky but it isn't very likely.

Well, it really depends on what someone finds boring, closet camping still involves you shooting the shit out of endless hordes as they come storming through a tight space, which to me is fun either way because i love being able to mow down mobs of zombies with ma' gunz. Camping by the ammo and weapons is also fun, but a little more dangerous, however, again, there is usually a backwall to go up against anyway (ie the elevator in No merci, just camp against the elevator door wall and your back is protected). See, in campeign, the closet should be allowed, because its not being cruel to anyone but the AI, and i dont think it minds, plus on expert mode, playing the same map 7 times gets to be the real boring part, and using any means nessecary in the game to get by is totally legit. Its versus that makes it harder on the infected and unfair, i'd say, simply remove the closet by the crescendo events in all versus maps and its fair, no one respawns in them anyway...

I'm also somewhat surprised by how many people get so upset over whether someone closet camps or does the door bash thing or many of the other exploits. This really shouldn't be the player's problem. As a player you should be able to use any means necessary to succeed within the context of the game. I shouldn't need to consult my lawyer to see if it's ok to do something in a video game. If I think something will help me win and I can do it in game, I should be able to do it! If I'm not supposed to be allowed to do something it is up to the developers to code it so that I cannot do it. This doesn't just appy to l4d I feel this way about alot of games it's just that l4d has more gray area than most.

This is exactly what i was trying to say, but 'legitimate' is too complex of a word for some people. If it helps you win and is clearly not exploit, guess what, YOU CAN DO IT! I shouldn't be playing a game thinking every time i do something whether or not its gonna be detremantal to gameplay, thats what the developers do! If they provide me with a tiny little room, why not use it against 200 zombies? Its not like they have that tiny room blocked, or full of hot lava... Thats for campaign, and even for now, it should be ok to do in versus, until they fix it, and there should be no need to get your panties in a bunch over it, because the amount of crescendo time in each campaign is like 2 mins, as compared to the 40 mins you have to attack the survivors in the open.

Its like when i played my first CSS clan match. it was 2v2 and we owned the shit outta them because i just kept getting an awp. despite everyone saying its an unfair weapon or for noobs, we were allowed to use it, so why not, it helped us win, so it was completel fine. Welcome to video games?

 

[PvtRyan]

Look, it's not a hard concept: just because it's allowed, does not mean it's not an asshole thing to do.

 

[Fiberawptic]

Look, it's not a hard concept: just because it's allowed, does not mean it's not an asshole thing to do.

You clearly didn't read my post. Im saying remove any closets by crescendo and finale events (leave the ones in other spots) in versus mode. Then leave everything the way it is in campaign, because look, even though it may be more 'fun' to camp by weapons and ammo during crescendo points, its all up to what the players want to do in campaign, and trust me, playing expert mode can get frustrating to the point where if you can come up with any plan to help you get through a map after playing it for 6 times, then why not?

And to add yo your logic 'just because its an asshole thing to', does not mean you can't do it. Until valve does something about it, players shouldn't have to abandon an plan because a bunch of people cry about it. Just like awping in CSS, if your on a server that allows it, dont bitch about it, otherwise go play on a server that has it disabled...

 

[Sheepo]

lol at this argument

"Kind of annoying in versus"
"But it's ALLOWED"
"Doesn't mean it's not an asshole thing to do"
"THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T DO IT"

 

[Fiberawptic]

lol at this argument

"Kind of annoying in versus"
"But it's ALLOWED"
"Doesn't mean it's not an asshole thing to do"
"THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T DO IT"

And whos argument are you mocking exactly?

 

[Sheepo]

I'm not mocking an argument. I'm mocking the argument.

 

[Fiberawptic]

I'm not mocking an argument. I'm mocking the argument.

fair enough i suppose

 

[ktimekiller]

You clearly didn't read my post. Im saying remove any closets by crescendo and finale events (leave the ones in other spots) in versus mode. Then leave everything the way it is in campaign, because look, even though it may be more 'fun' to camp by weapons and ammo during crescendo points, its all up to what the players want to do in campaign, and trust me, playing expert mode can get frustrating to the point where if you can come up with any plan to help you get through a map after playing it for 6 times, then why not?

And to add yo your logic 'just because its an asshole thing to', does not mean you can't do it. Until valve does something about it, players shouldn't have to abandon an plan because a bunch of people cry about it. Just like awping in CSS, if your on a server that allows it, dont bitch about it, otherwise go play on a server that has it disabled...

I would think it to be common gaming sportsmanship courtesy to stay off of the "gay" shit, as you said, just awping, or autosniping.

 

[Jintor]

I'm not mocking an argument. I'm mocking the argument.

Sheepo Wins!

 

[Shift]

In my experience closet camping isn't very effective at all, especially since you are more prone to friendly fire, but some of the areas are wankers to get too in verses I will admit, since its about picking people off when the trail behind or stop heal up thats the name of the game with the infected, attacking when they are all together usually ends up in your quick demise.

 

[Operational]

I'm also somewhat surprised by how many people get so upset over whether someone closet camps or does the door bash thing or many of the other exploits. This really shouldn't be the player's problem. As a player you should be able to use any means necessary to succeed within the context of the game.

So according to you this
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ2HQoHU3-E
is acceptable?

"Exploits are okay because they are in the game" is an idiotic argument.

 

[morgs]

If it would be doable in reality, why not do it in a game?

 

[Kula Meenur]

What the shit. It's the only tactical way to go about it. Play the game how you want, i'm not acting like a mad **** and putting myself out in the middle in harms way in the direct path of a zombie horde :|


Stupid ****ers should stfu and realise it's only a game and ya can't stop people playing how they want.

 

[Jintor]

I have a rule: Exploit against me, and I will exploit against you.

Door-bash? Hundred-Hunters.

Eye for an Eye, bitches.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

I have a rule: Exploit against me, and I will exploit against you.

Door-bash? Hundred-Hunters.

Eye for an Eye, bitches.

Exactly. That's what i do whenever someone exploits against me. Yet they are quick to complain at me for exploiting whenever i do that. Seems bashing the door is a good exploit yet setting several hunters on them is not.
Closets should be disabled in Versus. They are not needed and makes you invincible against the infected.

 

[Fiberawptic]

"Exploits are okay because they are in the game" is an idiotic argument.

That is an idiotic argument for sure, but that wasn't the original argument of the thread, as you said so yourself, closet camping isn't an exploit...

 

[Gordon-Shepherd]

you justified closet camping in the same way though. You said it isn't an exploit because it's in the game.
Man, there's no need to argue. From what I can see nobody has really been disagreeing with you much, but you seem to be flailing around a lot.

 

[Reflex]

Oh Shi- my covers been blown.

 

[Scotchy]

There is a difference between closet-camping, crescendo-bypassing, and hundred-hunters.

Closet-Camping is intended (and encouraged I think) by the developers. Otherwise they would have removed the closets after playtesting, or never made them at all.

Crescendo-Bypassing is (I beleive) also intended (though not openly encouraged) by the developers as a not-necessarily risk-free alternative. I'm working my way though and argument in a different thread on this very subject, so I'll say no more here.

Hundred-Hunters however, is quite a different matter. When you've got to pull up the console to accomplish something in-game... well that fairly reeks of cheating. The difference between the first two and this one is that they can be done by anyone without doing anything out of the ordinary in a normal playing condition. Hundred-Hunters takes advantage of a flaw in the engine to spawn AI infected; it's 'z_spawn hunter' without having sv_cheats set to 1. And that's just dirty pool.

 

[Sheepo]

Closet or corner camping is a completely logical and valid way to survive. It may be cheap for versus, but it is in no way an exploit.

Crescendo skipping is usually an exploit, but some aren't. I broke down that garage door instead of taking the gas station lift today.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Closets were designed only for a player to respawn in campaign mode nothing more. Also Valve's playtesting is a load of shit. Valve seem to get retards to test their games, evident by how often they have to dumb things down. Valve tend to miss exploits in their playtesting they only playtest it in a way a normal person would play. In campaign it's fair play but it's really cheap in versus.

Rick free are you ****ing kidding me. A zombie apocalypse with a risk free option that shits all over the infected team. Note that you can't skip all Crescendos, surly if this was intended you could skip them all. There are some crescendo like moments that can be avoided such as not shooting the car, the game warns you of this, but some aren't. They are meant to be a final test. The door breakable in NM3 is prime territory for infected, smokers can pull people off the lift, wide areas for hunters and of course the horde that comes, so skipping all that ruins the chances for the infected.


Allow me to ask you this, what about the melee spamming exploit, is this intentional? No console required you can spam the switch weapon and melee ataack so that an infected can't get anywhere near ya. Combine that to camping closet and your untouchable buy the infected. Surely you've noticed how all these go in favor of the survivors and not the infected and as such ruining the balance.

 

[Sheepo]

Closets were designed only for a player to respawn in campaign mode nothing more.

I thought the same thing, until I walked in and closed the door behind me. Should there be no openable doors? Because honestly, closets are no better than regular rooms.

Note that you can't skip all Crescendos, surely if this was intended you could skip them all. There are some crescendo like moments that can be avoided such as not shooting the car, the game warns you of this, but some aren't.

lol at contradicting yourself in the very next sentence.

They are meant to be a final test. The door breakable in NM3 is prime territory for infected, smokers can pull people off the lift, wide areas for hunters and of course the horde that comes, so skipping all that ruins the chances for the infected.

The game is not designed for the infected to have a fair chance. It was made for the survivors to just barely survive, the most intense and close ending possible. But the survivors are supposed to make it. Most crescendo skips are exploits, but the game isn't supposed to be entirely crescendos, the boss infected have a great many oppurtunitys without them.

Edit: Missed melee part. Haha, are you serious? You think repeatedly meleeing is an exploit?

 

[PimpinPenguin]

lol at contradicting yourself in the very next sentence.

I should have been more clear, crescendos like not shooting the car in NM1 can be avoided and the game tells you thus. While some like waiting in the hospital for the lift can't and the game tells you to prepare for the hord.

The game is not designed for the infected to have a fair chance. It was made for the survivors to just barely survive, the most intense and close ending possible. But the survivors are supposed to make it. Most crescendo skips are exploits, but the game isn't supposed to be entirely crescendos, the boss infected have a great many oppurtunitys without them.

I was referring to versus, in campaign i don't give a damn but in versus it's the infected duty to wipe out the survivors and as such we should have a reasonable fair chance. I know the game is not one big crescendo but the crescendo is a major part of it. Getting yourself ready for the impending onslaught and having the hord food the arena.

Edit: Missed melee part. Haha, are you serious? You think repeatedly meleeing is an exploit?

No,no i meant the fast melee exploit(switching between pistol and primary weapon you can melee twice as fast) not just mashing the melee button.

 

[Sheepo]

Well yeah, that is pretty much an expoit. *straight face smilie here*

As for the lift horde, should it be, "Power the lift, but be ready for the horde! But if you'd like to get around it you can just go over there and break down that unusual wall lol"

 

[Operational]

That is an idiotic argument for sure, but that wasn't the original argument of the thread, as you said so yourself, closet camping isn't an exploit...

I am altering the original argument of the thread. Pray I don't alter it any further.

 

[ktimekiller]

The door in no mercy is definitely an exploit. It was intended for tanks to burst through

 

[CyberPitz]

ANY sort of skipping the crescendo event is an exploit. It's obvious they didn't want it when they said the events were IMPOSSIBLE TO SKIP. You people think an accident left over is legit because it's there?

As for the topic, if you don't like the melee in a closet, make a mod that disables it somehow. GL with people playing it.

 

[Fiberawptic]

I am altering the original argument of the thread. Pray I don't alter it any further.

No, i know. I was going to mention the thread has been slightly derailed but then people would probably say its still discussing similar issues which is fine. So my verdict is while i do think it just excacerbates the situation for infected players, closet camping is merely just using the environment to your advantage which doesn't mean people have to go cry for admin or bitch about it when a team decides to do it. Thats my opinion and it not going to change because no one has given any good reason to think otherwise. Hopefully valve will come up with a solution to make things fairer for the infected side and possibly make it more balanced all around in the future, but until then, just let it be...

 

[flamingdts]

Exploits = unnatural way of playing the game to gain an advantage.

Closet Camping = backing to a small room with only one possible entrance. Exploit? Nope, it's a natural way of playing the game, you are not jumping, twitching nor messing with the console, all you do is back into a room that makes it easier to defend.

Skipping Panic Events = Exploit because it is "unnatural" way of playing the game. I don't think the developers intended the survivors to be able to jump on an electricity box stuck on a wall in order to skip a panic event. I don't think developers intended for you to jump onto a thin pipe stuck on the wall located on another building. I don't think developers intended for you to be able to continously hit the minigun, jump on it, and have the ability to fly few feet away from a blockage that can only be downed by causing a panic event.

To be honest, I have found a lot of exploits to skip panic events. ALOT. This is something Valve needs to cover. My jaw dropped when I saw one of my teammates meleeing a mini gun, then jumped on it, then for some reason he was able to fly few feet away from a blockage that causes panic events.

Basically, anything that is not in the nature of the game that gives an advantage is an exploit. It is NOT suppose to be part of the game. Closet camping is not an exploit, it's merely backing down into an area of the room.

Though that being said, melee needs to be toned down a bit. Yes it should still be there, but not strong enough to knock down 5 zombies at once.

 

[perrkele]

I'm 100% certain Valve will make the following changes:

1) Fix skippable crescendos to be impossible to skip (ie. the door on NM3)
2) Remove closets near crescendos in Versus maps (like the one in NM4)
3) Disable exploits such as hundred hunters or 2x speed melee.

In more detail:

1) People defending exploits such as the breakable door on NM3 are borderline delusional. Crescendos are not there to be skipped, Valve has emphasized the meaning and function of crescendo events from the very beginning. If there are means to skip them, it is obvious that it is a mistake on Valve's part, something that they missed. The door, for example, is breakable because of Tanks, which always spawn a bit ahead of the survivors and thus needed a way to get in there fast. Bashing the door into bits also makes for a very cinematic entry for the Tank. Valve just made the door destructable by melee, and forgot that survivors can do it too. Accidents happen, they will fix it.

2) While I understand that in normal Campaign the closets are fair game, in Versus it's totally different. One of the most crucial moments in a map is switched to a borefest of four guys holding down their meleebutton for 30 seconds while drinking some tea or reading a newspaper. If Valve thought closet camping in Versus was such a brilliantly balanced idea, they wouldn't have removed them from the finales either. But, as you all know, they changed the finale maps to remove closet camping, so there you have it.

3) This is a total no-brainer, if the first two weren't already. I'm also fairly certain Valve will also tweak the regular melee a bit, but I'm not sure how. Maybe adjust the speed a bit, decrease the area of effect somewhat, make melee damage teammates if you're standing in the same spot, or add some sort of fatigue meter. Nothing major in any case.

Now Valve, get to work. Or rather, publish the work I'm sure you've already done.

 

[Shift]

I think its pretty damn obvious will address these issues, I think they will be flooded over multiple forums and after playing versus a lot more, its actually turned into a ****ing joke.

Ok closet camping is not classed as an exploit, but they have turned an event which is meant throw everything in the infected's favor for a chance to really do damage to the other team, while they have to deal with them and the hundreds of zombies running at them, and turned into a situation that improves literally impossible for the infected.

Not to mention I don't even understand why people want to do it anyway, I mean is so ****ing boring just sitting there, I would rather be right there in the thick of it, the panic events are the funnest parts of the campaign games. Which leads onto the next point, why would you WANT to skip events in the game, I mean there is no time limit on the game, I have been in only team who were skipping one of my favorite parts of the level, and I was demanding they stayed to face it but they just buggered off anyway so I left.

Frankly anyone who does this is an imbecile as far as I am concerned, and even though closet camping isn't an exploit, its still the same as say, planting a bomb on a jet in Battlefield 2 and blowing it up if you don't get it, or resource point raping on World on Conflict (getting a nuke thrown on you every 2 seconds). In otherwords tactics that simply are not fair, and ruins the game for others.

Enjoy them while it lasts anyway, because I have every confidence Valve will get rid of them all.

 

[perrkele]

Not to mention I don't even understand why people want to do it anyway, I mean is so ****ing boring just sitting there, I would rather be right there in the thick of it, the panic events are the funnest parts of the campaign games. Which leads onto the next point, why would you WANT to skip events in the game, I mean there is no time limit on the game, I have been in only team who were skipping one of my favorite parts of the level, and I was demanding they stayed to face it but they just buggered off anyway so I left.

It's because for some people, only winning equals fun. Everything else is meh. They will do whatever it takes to win. This is why you have aimbots and wallhacks in online games like Counter-Strike. This is why you have exploiters and ragequitters in Left 4 Dead.

 

[Fiberawptic]

It's because for some people, only winning equals fun. Everything else is meh. They will do whatever it takes to win. This is why you have aimbots and wallhacks in online games like Counter-Strike. This is why you have exploiters and ragequitters in Left 4 Dead.

Well then again, playing the same map 7 times isn't exactly 'fun' for most people. So closet camping just helps relieve some stress to get by the harder part (crescendos). Then again, you did say its fine in Campaign.

I'm 100% certain Valve will make the following changes:

1) Fix skippable crescendos to be impossible to skip (ie. the door on NM3)
2) Remove closets near crescendos in Versus maps (like the one in NM4)
3) Disable exploits such as hundred hunters or 2x speed melee.

That would be a great update, a few more exploits to be covered like binding a key to 'spectate' so before you get killed you can enter spec mode and respawn, avoiding respawn times from dieing. Overall, it just needs more balance so the infected have a better chance.

 

[Sheepo]

I don't understand why people are so ****ing pissed about closet camping when there are so many other rooms (many of them are even more ideal for the survivors) to hide in. And if you think it's stupid and boring to hold up in a room, well then good for you Rambo. Peronally, I'm trying to survive. So my team and I will be defending ourselves in this room, have fun being hit from every direction at once.

And yeah, crescendo skipping is retarded.

 

[Sledgehammer]

The term toilet camping never got very popular.
The obvious solution is not removing closets. I like them. But rather somehow diminishing the effect of it (and increasing the effect of friendly fire in a such situation). And I'd want a solution that wouldn't make corner camping much less effective.

 

[Shift]

Another thing that bloody annoys me is the auto switch server on servers, you are three quarters the way through a level on verses, its been long but you and your team have been ravaging the opposing team, you work really well together, then it switches to the loosing team for the final few chapters. Its like one team wooping another team 3-0 in a football game and then the ref choosing someone randomly from the winning team and forcing them to play for the loosing team :|

 

[diluted]

IF you want Valve to remove "closets" then they'll have to remove every other room with only 1 way in, because how is that any different from a closet? Everyone can crowd around the door, melee'ing and shooting, and no one can get in. Hell, while they're at it, maybe Valve should just go ahead and remove every building in the game! We can just play in one huge empty map with nothing in it, no places to hide, no cover at all! That's the only true way to play!