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Samon said:Government man?
esplin said:Okay, so some people are having trouble seeing the gaping plotholes in Opposing Force, I will attempt to explain.
1. After a long day of fighting Adrian finds himself infront of a giant squid spewing teleporters. Adrian seems to have killed the beast, but it is also exploding. Just when it looks like the end Adrian is pulled out........and then told he knows too much and is locked away forever.
This would make sense except for the fact that EVERYONE during the time of Half Life 2 knows about the Black Mesa Incident. Dr. Kliener and Dr. Vance knew a lot more about the incident then Shephard did, yet they are allowed to tell the world while Adrian gets the boot.
2. The nuke. The government attempts to cover-up the incident by Nuking Black Mesa. The first problem with this is that Black Mesa should already be destroyed (see my previous post.) However, even ignoring this, their seems to be little or no reason to nuke the base. It would be a good cover up, except for the fact that the portal storms are still going on, and spreading. You think the government would try to stop the portal storms well before it tried to cover them up. Do they think that it will seal the portals? I'd love to see their scientific reasoning for this.
3. This one is debateable but I'll bring it up anyway. A large portion of the game takes place after Nihilanth is killed, yet we see Vortigaunts still wearing their collars.
4. I already brought this up, but the air rade should have destroyed Black Mesa. I don't care if Black Mesa is three times the size of Texas (another thread, don't ask) it would only be a matter of hours before Black Mesa was nothing but rubble.
So with all these plot contrivances what do we have left. The worst attempted cover up in history, Bomber pilots who couldn't find toilet paper in the bathroom, a hero locked away forever because no one likes him, and an alien race that is never explained, even in its own game.
The reason these flaws in the story exist, Half Life 2 was made without any consideration for Opposing Force. So their you have it. Valve may still say Gearbox's work is canon, but Valve itself has made their games obsolete.
Black Op said:As for the characterization issue, at least Freeman has a developed backstory if you own the HL2 guide. And HL1 actually is a footnote to the HL2 storyline, while Op4 seems to not be a footnote at all.
Government Man only directly interferes in someone's affairs if he has special interest in them. Otherwise it's in his nature to just let events play out for themselves. G-Man was not concerned about the fate of most of the Black Mesa survivors. For some odd reason though, he seems to enjoy toying around with Shephard even when he recruited Freeman in the end. Perhaps G-Man is always on the lookout for potential recruits?Adrik_Senturu said:1. I dont think the Gman expected Either kliener or Eli to survive, and if he did he could've possibly forseen that they would be of use in the futurue. I also think the only reason he captured shephard was because of how far he made it, What if shephard got on the chopper? Would've been the end of it right there.
But all the topside facilities in Op4 after the Grunts pull out should have been wiped off the face of the Earth. Instead they seem practically intact, a direct contradiction to what HL1 implies. However a nuclear device could probably take care of the underground sections along with any stragglers. My feeling is that the Portal Storms were a side-effect of the Nihilanth's death (which was pretty violent).2. Well considering the majority of black mesa is underground, I dont see how an Air Raid could destroy it. All the facilites on the top? Sure why not, would make sense that they were completely destroyed, but unless were talking about some ultra-super-secret penetrating missles that mind you, would have to probably have to penetrate a few miles down into the planet to even reach black mesa THAN yes, it would have been destroyed. As for the portal storms, I don't think they started right when the black mesa incident started, and if the government even knew about the storms beforehand, the first thing they would do is blow up Black Mesa to make sure no one found out that its pretty much there fault for letting something like that happen.
Surely the Vortigaunts on Earth would notice when their connection with their master has been severed? Without any Controllers, the Slaves are finally free to their own devices and would have little reason to attack humans anymore.3. The vortigaunts wouldnt just magically dispose of there collars once Nili died, and you stopped seeing most Xen species after you saw Gordon jump through the portal, after that it was just Race X and the Uber-ninjas of death.
But all the bombing efforts in the world would have gone to waste if Black Mesa's topside wasn't utterly destroyed, which Op4 seems to unfortuntely suggest. Shephard unlike Freeman seems destined to live the rest of his life in storage, as Government Man never indicated he would actually use his services. As for Race-X, nothing of their home world or their leader is known unlike how HL1 gave us a good glimpse of the Borderworld and its Nihilanth.So what do we have left? Bomber pilots who unfortunately, dont have magic missle. A hero locked away for possible future purposes (And mind you only locked away, and not killed, because the Gman took some interest in him), and an Alien Race that gets as much explanation as the Xen species that start appearing. They did just that. Started appearing.
Shephard doesn't have much of a role in Freeman's saga. The point of Shephard's existance and the other expansions was just so the Black Mesa incident could be viewed from different points of view. Any future expansions should use the same concept, so new characters could be created rather than just reusing Shephard. I'd rather know the life of a normal Resistance member, an Universial Union collaborator, or a Vortigaunt rather than use an old character again for a random purpose. That's how I view expansions.DeusExMachina said:Exactly. Freeman becomes a little bit more than a pair of hands in HL2. Why can't the same happen to Shephard? Valve can flesh him out as well in a future expansion.
Still doesn't mean that Op4 contributed greatly to the primary HL storyline.And of course HL1 is a footnote to the HL2 storyline, HL2 is a direct sequel developed by Valve. Op4 was developed by Gearbox as an expansion.
Surely the Vortigaunts on Earth would notice when their connection with their master has been severed? Without any Controllers, the Slaves are finally free to their own devices and would have little reason to attack humans anymore.
Correction, I have played all of Op4 before. However how good Op4 was is not the primary issue here but rather Shephard's significance to the HL story. Based on my time over at the Black Mesa mod forums, I have judged Shephard's contribution to be too little to justify him coming back. Any future expansions will have far greater potential if they used the POV of a new character. Let's create new characters rather than fall back on the overrated Shephard.bboymatty said:To all these people who just say "OMG OP4 TOTALLY SUCKED NOOB ASS" i get the impression that you all would rather have never played the game, rather than actually play it and find something nice to say about it..... *snip*
I think Shephard being left in limbo is a good amount of closure for him. I don't see people demanding closure for Doctors Cross & Green, and they provided Freeman with behind-the-scenes aid which can't be said for this glorified Marine.Flyingdebris said:I'd like to see something involving adrian if only for closure..... *snip*
Anticitizen One and Miss Vance make an even more badass team. Of course Shephard has never been employed; he's locked in storage for G-Man's amusement. I find a certain tragedy in how nobody gives a rat's ass for Shephard and thus he'll always be kept in limbo, and so I find that good for him. As for the Black Ops, it's safe to say that their organization must have been dissolved ever since the Universial Union took over. And surviving members would have been absorbed into either the Resistance or the Overwatch.oddnerd said:I hope to see him come back, him and Gordon would make a badass team. I imagine they wouldnt fight anymore because Shepard is , i think it is safe to say, unemployed now. What would be even awesome is playing as the black ops, maybe some of them survived.
I would think G-Man could come up with something way better than send one man to bring back into line his primary agent. G-Man would have to bring Anticitizen One back into stasis himself no matter what, as Shephard doesn't have these powers.alphamonkey said:Maybe have him start off as an antagonist, a tool of GMan to reclaim his favourite agent/get revenge for his plans being screwed up. Perhaps later, he could be captured by the resistance, interrogated, have his personality fleshed out a bit. Could be interesting.
Argh with the flawed logic - Samon apply the same logic to Gordon Freeman. Halflife ended - there was no inherent need to make a sequel at all except that it would be a) a money maker and b) a good storySamon said:I hate it when people associate G-man with the Government, considering G-man isn't his name.
Honestly though Deus, what is the point in bringing him back? None.
comments like that just don't make sense - why would you say no to playing a similar heavy combat role in halflife. It's like saying you love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches but you hate peanut butter :OI think Shephard being left in limbo is a good amount of closure for him. I don't see people demanding closure for Doctors Cross & Green, and they provided Freeman with behind-the-scenes aid which can't be said for this glorified Marine.
john3571000 said:- crap bosses...to my mind it had 2, the last being awful admittedly and the first being a great puzzle and alot of fun. Who cares that it had laser eyes or was positioned where it was. It was fun.
In the Eurogamer interview, they mention how they intend to explain what G-Man's reaction is to Freeman's escape. I really don't see how he intends to this without TRYING to capture, or coerc Freeman back into captivity, or easier yet, use Shephard. A cool scenario comes up to me where the G-Man offers to revive Alyx if Freeman returns to him...but it's already set up where the Vortigaunts revive her.Samon said:I hate it when people associate G-man with the Government, considering G-man isn't his name.
Honestly though Deus, what is the point in bringing him back? None.
I doubt the gman has governmental/military power, however, by reading through the manuals of opposing force, it would appear he is.esplin said:Note: Why would they have to plant a nuke anyway. Wouldn't it just be easier to launch a nuke from a nearby missile base. This isn't a real complaint against Opposing Force, I'm just wondering.
1. The reports of portal storms hadn't started coming in yet, or the storms hadn't happened yet, andesplin said:To add another comment about the Nuke.
Okay so maybe the whole facility wouldn't have been destroyed by the air raid, but still the question is WHY nuke it? It won't cover-up the incident because it is still going on, and it won't stop the portals.
The only way the nuke makes sense is if you take Half Life 2 out of the story. Which brings Opposing Forces claims of being "canon" into question.
Note: Why would they have to plant a nuke anyway. Wouldn't it just be easier to launch a nuke from a nearby missile base. This isn't a real complaint against Opposing Force, I'm just wondering.
john3571000 said:Sorry got carried away a bit It just irritates me when people say they love halflife and in the same breath say they hate Opposing Force particulary when their reason hold no water. Sure OPFOR wasnt exactly the second coming but neither was halflife flawless nor perfection. comments like that just don't make sense - why would you say no to playing a similar heavy combat role in halflife. It's like saying you love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches but you hate peanut butter :O
esplin said:In Opposing Force you begin by heading for the evacuation point. When you are unable to do that you...............***n around randomly till you fight the final boss? I hate mods that do this and I really don't like how Opposing Force handles it.
Solaris said:I doubt the gman has governmental/military power, however, by reading through the manuals of opposing force, it would appear he is.
esplin said:In Opposing Force you begin by heading for the evacuation point. When you are unable to do that you...............***n around randomly till you fight the final boss? I hate mods that do this and I really don't like how Opposing Force handles it.
Samon said:Honestly though Deus, what is the point in bringing him back? None.
It's a great concept. But again: why Shepherd? Using a character already pulled into the G-Man's influence is just going to repeat a lot of themes we've already seen elsewhere. It's looking very much like we'll only get the one (if that) alternative perspective to the HL2 continuity. Why not give it to a new, potentially far more interesting character that can explore new themes, or old themes given a new twist? Like a combine soldier whose mind becomes freed in the chaos? Or a resistence fighter in another sector of the city?Flyingdebris said:And why the hell would you not want to see the halflife setting from a different perspective? Like the one week time lapse, or maybe some other mission out in the wastes.
Not quite: Every person who ever played a game set in Black Mesa knew who Gordon Freeman was (unless they knew nothing, but there's no accounting for n00bs ). Only a fraction (and at HL2's release, I'd say a quite small fraction) knew who Shepherd was. To play Opposing Force was to play a game that directly referenced Gordon Freeman as a character. Freeman wasn't, perhaps still isn't a full formed character, but even after one appearance he was still a far more solid character than Shepherd.john3571000 said:Samon apply the same logic to Gordon Freeman. Halflife ended - there was no inherent need to make a sequel at all except that it would be a) a money maker and b) a good story
By extension, the same applies to Opposing Force - perhaps the only expansion FPS ever that is actually worth playing
So were the Backstreet Boys. You want them back too?DeusExMachina said:1. He's popular.
kupoartist said:So were the Backstreet Boys. You want them back too?