Competition Among Mods

[Argyll]

Here's a little rant.

Why do some people in the mod community have to go to such lengths to disrupt other mods? It seems that competition can get so strong and that it only has a negative affect on things.

If there is a mod out there and you see it as competition, what is the point in continually flaming, throwing accusations, trying to brainwash their members, and going to other extreme lengths to try and get the point of 'you suck' across...

Honestly. Some competition is healthy of course because that doesn't create a monopoly and benefits the community, but in my day, I've seen such stupid things happen between mods. Some competition is displayed publically, but you may be surprised what happens privately.

So, here's a message to anyone who has such a passionate hate against another mod since it's in direct or indirect competition with yours:

Mind your own business and work on your own bloody project, so that you can prove yourself. There is no sense in trying to degrade other people's hard work and committment so that you can succeed. You can succeed even better if you overcome any obstacles that are in your way. There is no use in going through stupid lengths to see the downfall of another mod. It may help you to a slight degree, but it certainly is not helping the fans, mod development community, or gaming as a whole.

[/rant]

 

[WhiteBoy]

I wasn't aware that was competition to this degree between the Mod teams. And now that I think of it, why would there be any? If I were part of a team, I would hope the other Mod projects were succeed, and I would hope they'd feel the same. But fighting between teams? What's the point?

 

[dassbaba]

Thank you argyll, finally someone says something...

I don't mind people acting stupid and making jokes, I do it all the time... But, when you harass other mods for whatever reason and constantly degrade their hard work? Something is wrong. This isn't a joke, maybe with a clan or some game it's fine, but some people take modding seriously. It may be a joke or hobby to you, but for people who work on their project every day as much as they can, it's their career. Leave them alone, do your own work, stay in your own IRC channel.

 

[Argyll]

I wasn't aware that was competition to this degree between the Mod teams. And now that I think of it, why would there be any? If I were part of a team, I would hope the other Mod projects were succeed, and I would hope they'd feel the same. But fighting between teams? What's the point?

Yeah, many people don't realise what can and what does happen between mods. Thankfully though, not all mods are like this and actually even help each other out.

 

[Majestic XII]

It's a simple question of maturity. I don't understand people who try to sabotage other peoples work, at least not in the mod community. It's insane. I thought we was into this together to try to learn something and maybe one day become a real developer, atleast thats what im trying to do.

Trust me, it's much easier to not sabotage than to do sabotage... so why waste your time?

 

[Onions]

mod sabotage is absurd. mod makers play games too, why **** up someone elses when there's the possibility that you'll enjoy it? is mod making a popularity contest or something these days? does that justify sabotage? i thought it was about the fun of creating something, and the remote possibility of having something nice to put on your cv/resume. i'd rather have a small group of keen players than be the next counter-thing with 20,000 sugar munching little l33ts.

 

[BadBruzer]

I agree with all of you this is all ridiculous. I have had my run in with one mod. I won't mention names but we have had some problems. I think competition can be healthy. It makes your team strive to be better if you take away competition what left do you have to strive for. I agree mod teams should keep to them selves and not say anything to any other mods unless its something positive. I try my best to get along with as many mods I can its better to have many friends than many enemies.

Thats just my 2 cents.

 

[Teddy]

Thankfully, Dystopia hasn't had any of these sort of problems, mabey it's because we're all down in Australia, too far away for people to throw their sticks & stones.

It seems a shame that the mod community attracts these kind of problems, I guess maturity will forever be an issue on the internet.

 

[dassbaba]

Blah, I wish I was in Australia =P

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, one of the problems is the falling average age of modders, and the drop in average quality of team leaders (you guys are all exempt from this though)

Back in the days of Doom modding, and even Quake 2, mod teams were smaller, and everyone on the team actually had an applied skill. These days, people are recruited on to teams for 'ideas person' and 'P.R. Assistant'.

Another one of the problems is likely the fact that many mods now have very similar themes. CS clones, Zombie mods, WW2 mods - loads are being made (relates back to the falling age again) and the teams all think they're going to be the best.

If you come up with a really original idea, nobody's going to sabotage you, because you're not producing competition.

There's a point hidden somewhere in my post, but I'm too hungover to find it.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dario D.]

Fighting with other mods is just dumb.

If it will fail, it will fail. If a mod will succeed, it will succeed - and people who are worried about other mods have no reason to be, because if their own mod is good, it will succeed absolutely regardless of other mods. People who are jealous of another mod have no REASON to pick at them - it will NOT affect anything that happens to THEIR mod.

It just has to be good enough to be played vs. other mods. If it's not, picking at another, better mod to try to bring them down is just a plain crime / act of hate.

It's not like people don't already try any and all mods that look interesting.

I've never really seen any mods fighting or bickering though...

Sometimes people try to flack down mods like Black Mesa: Source because they are copying HL or something... but they aren't modders usually.

 

[Majestic XII]

Good we're all on the same page....too bad it makes the thread so boring.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

So, to add a little bit of insight...

Argyll, fancy telling us of your personal experiences of being sabotaged?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Argyll]

(1) Well, one of the problems is the falling average age of modders, and the drop in average quality of team leaders (you guys are all exempt from this though)

(2) Back in the days of Doom modding, and even Quake 2, mod teams were smaller, and everyone on the team actually had an applied skill. These days, people are recruited on to teams for 'ideas person' and 'P.R. Assistant'.

(3) Another one of the problems is likely the fact that many mods now have very similar themes. CS clones, Zombie mods, WW2 mods - loads are being made (relates back to the falling age again) and the teams all think they're going to be the best.

If you come up with a really original idea, nobody's going to sabotage you, because you're not producing competition.

There's a point hidden somewhere in my post, but I'm too hungover to find it.

-Angry Lawyer

I have to agree, but at the same time disagree because the problems that I've experienced do not at all fit the description you outlined.

Argyll, fancy telling us of your personal experiences of being sabotaged?

Sure; here it is in relation to your first reply:

(1) Although that is a good, and fairly accurate, stereotype as to the falling age in developers/leaders that has an affect on their maturity level and therefore thirst for 'dirty' competition... The problems in my experience have been with someone over the age of 20.

(2) Again, in my experience it is with someone that does have the skill.

(3) I can understand mods being in competition if their themes or genre are the same or similar. However, in my experience, the other mod(s) have been a completely different genre. That's what puzzles me the most.

Also, from my experience, the other mod(s) have even gone to such lengths as try to recruit nearly every member of INS -- even going as far as phoning overseas one of the developers.

I also have reason to believe that there is a leak, because apparently the 'competition' thinks that they know quite a bit about the internal development of ours.

Overall, I think that the competition is just ridiculous and absolutely pointless. I completely agree with 'If it will fail, it will fail. If a mod will succeed, it will succeed...' which makes it nearly pointless to try and bring down another mod in order to try to make your mod own succeed.

 

[pur3r4ge]

Good we're all on the same page....too bad it makes the thread so boring.

I think opposing mod teams should actually hunt each other down in the streets and hire assassins to take each other out. It's ludicrous to think that your own work will stand on its own merits, and a much safer bet is to cut down everyone else down, thereby making yourself look better.

:cheese:

 

[Dario D.]

But then say good-bye to the best mods as they all get gunned down in the streets by the jealous lesser ones! :rolling:

(edit: suddenly gets a whiff of sarcasm)

 

[RomeoJGuy]

Well I advise anyone who has any decency with the hard work of the mod community to voice their opinion at garry's mod forum. As they continue to host leaked source code of jbmod and will not take it down. That is what makes the mod community horrible. Lamer's like garry. I will be sure to warez facewound and host it on my webserver.

 

[Dario D.]

:O Seriously?

Why are they doing that? For what reason?

 

[RomeoJGuy]

We had a team member who wanted to be team leader and when the team collectively said no he quit and started to distribute an older source code of ours.

 

[Dario D.]

Did he start the mod? If yes, then I can imagine...

Of not, dang.

 

[RomeoJGuy]

nah the original creator jb55 handed it over to another person, he assumed the control over it and got some people to help on it.

This idiot greg-j "greg johnson" is the one who decided to repost the source code everywhere.

 

[Ennui]

Yeah, City13 (which seems to have died, much to my chagrin, as my map took a lot of time) had a fierce rivalry with Resistance vs. Combine for a while, but when they shut down they kindly directed users to our site.

Mod rivalry sucks. Keep to yourself. If you're making mods for glory, stop. Make mods for yourself.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

nah the original creator jb55 handed it over to another person, he assumed the control over it and got some people to help on it.

This idiot greg-j "greg johnson" is the one who decided to repost the source code everywhere.

Wow I hope you guys gave him every 4 letter word you could come up with.

Seriously, that's about as stooping as low as you can get in the mod business. What did he think would happen? He would be praised as a god? People seem to never think through their actions before-hand nowadays.

I agree mod rivalry is just horrible. If anything I say that we simply feed off each other to make the entire mod scene 100 times better. Obiviously you must keep lots of secrets to yourselfs, but if every mod shared some general ideas and bounced ideas off each other, it would make the world a better place.

Plus, like Argyll said, competition is a good thing. It pushes everyone harder, faster, and will help make everyone's mod that much better. To put it into perspective, let's say you were running down the stree alone. You would probably go at a leisurely pace, not pushing yourself too hard. Now imagine if you had a friend with you. You obviously would want to keep up with him, and vice versa. Both of you would also want to run a little bit faster and push yourselfs harder.

Anyways, Eternal-Silence hasn't experienced any of these problems that I know of.

Although I will share a story which is old news.

We had a member (who shall not be named) who we hired, and he was alright, contributed ideas but he never did his job. Just was suggesting things and giving orders instead of working. So one night there was a fight and he left the team. We of course changed all of our passwords (which is a priority to do if any one of your team members leaves with a bad attitude) but a few days later he emailed us and said he started his own mod, which was a duplicate of ours with a different name. He even stole copy write work and used it as concept art. Throughout the entire site was mentions to us, and basically he wasn't trying to convince any fans that it wasn't a clone of ES, but he was more or less trying to convince himself. So we told him to stop it because it was a stupid decision. And then the artist found out he was using copyrighted work, and then he eventually just realized how stupid it was for him to do all this, and shut it down.

Morale of the story: Don't do drugs! hehe

But yeah to get back to the point, throwing threats at each other's creative creations is simply a horrible idea.

 

[Ennui]

Yeah, mods should be helping each other instead of fighting.

Such is competition, though.

 

[Teddy]

good god, that's terrible. Garry should be ashamed of himself, how would he like it if his source code was stolen?

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Wow, I just searched on the forums, and Garry didn't remove the link, or ban the user who posted the source code.

Wow....

In fact I'm amazed the topic is still even there... I would simply delete the thread right away, ban the user and make sure it doesn't happen anymore. It's just uncalled for.

 

[dassbaba]

garry is lame, he won't give other mods help when they ask a simple code question (apparently because he doesn't like real mods?) and now he's stealing code?

wow, that is totally not cool

 

[RomeoJGuy]

Its because he thinks he is "king of modding" and that his simple code additions are worth two shits.

Most things in his mode are one liners.


Want Ragdoll posing in your mod?

Just get the target of the crosshair and disable motion it will disable individual bones on ragdolls.

Want to spawn props, just get location of the crosshair move up 32 units create phys prop and spawn.

 

[dassbaba]

Its because he thinks he is "king of modding" and that his simple code additions are worth two shits.

Most things in his mode are one liners.


Want Ragdoll posing in your mod?

Just get the target of the crosshair and disable motion it will disable individual bones on ragdolls.

Want to spawn props, just get location of the crosshair move up 32 units create phys prop and spawn.

it seems garry has contracted a case of hubris

 

[Ennui]

Wow, I just searched on the forums, and Garry didn't remove the link, or ban the user who posted the source code.

Which is immensely stupid, considering he bans people for the slightest offenses, like posting the wrong image size, or because they annoyed him a little bit.

He's still a good coder, but he's a bit of an ass sometimes I'd say. Not that he cares what I say, at all.

 

[Mith']

Competition = good, better mods (to compete with the other mods)
Rivalry = Bad, flaming and nonsense...

 

[Dario D.]

:thumbs:

 

[FireCrack]

Competition and Cooperation, contrary to popular belief, are not mutualy exclusive.

 

[Ravey]

I wasn't aware of any mod wars, but now I'm really surprised. Biased mod comparisons are to be expected, but trying to sabotage another mod? I miss the old days when the internet was friendly for everyone without all the internet idiots around today. Things like 1337 talk, spam, email bombers, etc just spoil things for everyone else...

I feel lucky that I haven't seen this around any of the mods I play, but I guess I will eventually find out about this in person.

 

[SidewinderX]

I think there has been alot of stupid mod competition, but I wouldn't go as far to say that there should be none. I mean, CW:MP has been lucky, it seems, in not having any team member problems, no massive reorginzations, no 14 year old leaders who cuss out someone who asks a question on thier forums (cough Chaos Ops [although that was about a year ago... I'm not going to hold a grudge if they're still around]).

The biggest problem we had was someone from a similar threatening us with legal action. We defined Intellectual Property, and then he quit badgering us. (That story ended when that guy, assitant leader of his mod, promised the team a bunch of stuff, and then ran off with them, killing the original mod. Nothing's been heard from them since.. not even from the mod they promised they were joining)


I know, at least, CW:MP has cordial relationships with any mod that I can name off-hand, if there is any relationship. And even though Argyll and his bunch are "the most direct and powerful compition that CW:MP has" (direct quote from an e-mail asking me why I don't bash INS), I consider Argyll a friend, and he and I have conferred on many things. And Jeremy has helped me out a time or two. So there!

 

[Ennui]

Like I said, on City13 we had problems with Resistance vs Combine and Elite Partisan, but they ended up okay.

 

[Argyll]

...even though Argyll and his bunch are "the most direct and powerful compition that CW:MP has" (direct quote from an e-mail asking me why I don't bash INS)...

lol Do you mind dropping me a PM as to who sent that e-mail? I'm curious to see if it is someone that I have in mind...

 

[Jeremy]

haha thats funny

I was involved with some pretty bad competition at one point among UT2004 mods and my mod Red Orchestra. Just a lot of name calling and division of communities etc.

 

[dassbaba]

haha thats funny

I was involved with some pretty bad competition at one point among UT2004 mods and my mod Red Orchestra. Just a lot of name calling and division of communities etc.

rofl that's funny, people would kill for you on their team

 

[Javert]

I f-ing (for lack of a better word) despise it when two mods I like and follow decide to take potshots at each other.

Sometimes I tell them off, sometimes I just ignore it. But you don't see EA swiping Turbine over LotR do you?

But to play Devil's Advocate, I understand the pressure. You are basically committing your life to something that can offer the opportunity of a lifetime, or just come crashing down in your face. Mod work is tough, and nowadays, the stakes are as high as ever and the work (far from swapping skins like the old days) keeps getting more complicated.
So I can imagine why someone would feel to tip the scales in their favor, needing all the help he can get knowing that the worst retribution involves merely a flaming e-mail (there is no enforcement in such a sprawling community).

Suffice it to say, I blame the constant need to make the next CS or RO in people's minds (of which we're all guilty of, more or less) that creates such stupid tension amongst mod-makers.

To be less serious, let's just blame CS. :E