Creationism: God's gift to the ignorant

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Ignorance is God's Gift To Kansas
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/

Origional: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,592-1619264,00.html

Creationism: God's gift to the ignorant
As the Religious Right tries to ban the teaching of evolution in Kansas, Richard Dawkins speaks up for scientific logic

Science feeds on mystery. As my colleague Matt Ridley has put it: “Most scientists are bored by what they have already discovered. It is ignorance that drives them on.” Science mines ignorance. Mystery — that which we don’t yet know; that which we don’t yet understand — is the mother lode that scientists seek out. Mystics exult in mystery and want it to stay mysterious. Scientists exult in mystery for a very different reason: it gives them something to do.

Admissions of ignorance and mystification are vital to good science. It is therefore galling, to say the least, when enemies of science turn those constructive admissions around and abuse them for political advantage. Worse, it threatens the enterprise of science itself. This is exactly the effect that creationism or “intelligent design theory” (ID) is having, especially because its propagandists are slick, superficially plausible and, above all, well financed. ID, by the way, is not a new form of creationism. It simply is creationism disguised, for political reasons, under a new name.

It isn’t even safe for a scientist to express temporary doubt as a rhetorical device before going on to dispel it.

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.” You will find this sentence of Charles Darwin quoted again and again by creationists. They never quote what follows. Darwin immediately went on to confound his initial incredulity. Others have built on his foundation, and the eye is today a showpiece of the gradual, cumulative evolution of an almost perfect illusion of design. The relevant chapter of my Climbing Mount Improbable is called “The fortyfold Path to Enlightenment” in honour of the fact that, far from being difficult to evolve, the eye has evolved at least 40 times independently around the animal kingdom.

The distinguished Harvard geneticist Richard Lewontin is widely quoted as saying that organisms “appear to have been carefully and artfully designed”. Again, this was a rhetorical preliminary to explaining how the powerful illusion of design actually comes about by natural selection. The isolated quotation strips out the implied emphasis on “appear to”, leaving exactly what a simple-mindedly pious audience — in Kansas, for instance — wants to hear.

The deceitful misquoting of scientists to suit an anti-scientific agenda ranks among the many unchristian habits of fundamentalist authors. But such Telling Lies for God (the book title of the splendidly pugnacious Australian geologist Ian Plimer) is not the most serious problem. There is a more important point to be made, and it goes right to the philosophical heart of creationism.

The standard methodology of creationists is to find some phenomenon in nature which Darwinism cannot readily explain. Darwin said: “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Creationists mine ignorance and uncertainty in order to abuse his challenge. “Bet you can’t tell me how the elbow joint of the lesser spotted weasel frog evolved by slow gradual degrees?” If the scientist fails to give an immediate and comprehensive answer, a default conclusion is drawn: “Right, then, the alternative theory; ‘intelligent design’ wins by default.”

Notice the biased logic: if theory A fails in some particular, theory B must be right! Notice, too, how the creationist ploy undermines the scientist’s rejoicing in uncertainty. Today’s scientist in America dare not say: “Hm, interesting point. I wonder how the weasel frog’s ancestors did evolve their elbow joint. I’ll have to go to the university library and take a look.” No, the moment a scientist said something like that the default conclusion would become a headline in a creationist pamphlet: “Weasel frog could only have been designed by God.”

I once introduced a chapter on the so-called Cambrian Explosion with the words: “It is as though the fossils were planted there without any evolutionary history.” Again, this was a rhetorical overture, intended to whet the reader’s appetite for the explanation. Inevitably, my remark was gleefully quoted out of context. Creationists adore “gaps” in the fossil record.

Many evolutionary transitions are elegantly documented by more or less continuous series of changing intermediate fossils. Some are not, and these are the famous “gaps”. Michael Shermer has wittily pointed out that if a new fossil discovery neatly bisects a “gap”, the creationist will declare that there are now two gaps! Note yet again the use of a default. If there are no fossils to document a postulated evolutionary transition, the assumption is that there was no evolutionary transition: God must have intervened.

The creationists’ fondness for “gaps” in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don’t know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don’t understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don’t go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don’t work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don’t squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God’s gift to Kansas.

Richard Dawkins, FRS, is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science, at Oxford University. His latest book is The Ancestor’s Tale


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Wow..... as you see creationists are taking all the cheap shots. Why don't people accept that everything falls to earth at 9.8m/s/s. Why don't people accept how light bends and refracts and reflects. All that is Science. It isn't because some guy decreed so. Else all the hatred in this world is gods fault. All the good in this world is gods fault. The fact is that god is a reason to stop looking for the truth and settle down and never know. While science gets up and keeps going searching for the truth. They state things from Evolution which is a theory. A theory is not a fact but a constant changing idea that changes when new facts are found.
 
I, OCybrManO, hereby declare that, from this day forth, it shall be required for every member of halflife2.net to read this page before using the word "theory" in a scientific discussion.

EDIT: This is not an ex post facto law... so, any previous usage of the word without first visiting the aforementioned site will be forgiven. Just don't do it again. :LOL:
 
Minerel said:
Wow..... as you see creationists are taking all the cheap shots. Why don't people accept that everything falls to earth at 9.8m/s/s. Why don't people accept how light bends and refracts and reflects. All that is Science. It isn't because some guy decreed so. Else all the hatred in this world is gods fault. All the good in this world is gods fault. The fact is that god is a reason to stop looking for the truth and settle down and never know. While science gets up and keeps going searching for the truth. They state things from Evolution which is a theory. A theory is not a fact but a constant changing idea that changes when new facts are found.

Well said, I completely agree. :)
 
i really don't see any problems with science and God, i don't think they even contridict each other,
as far as i remember, somewhere in the Bible it says that a human being nature is to develop, grow and learn
science is only in human nature to explain the world around us in logical terms
for all we know, Adam was the first scientist when he went around and named all the animals
but i do agree that Bible is defenetly taken way too litteral in Kansas
 
Well said. Although I've never met a person who doesn't believe in evolution. They are very, very rare.
 
heh not here they're not ...I've met a few creationists in my time ..always get stumped when I ask them about dinosaurs or the age of the earth ..their answer is always something along the lines of "it's all part of god's mysterious plan" ..which usually invokes a choke-hold response out of me: "around here <punch> we obey <punch> the laws of logic <punch>" ...I kid
 
The_Monkey said:
Well said. Although I've never met a person who doesn't believe in evolution. They are very, very rare.
go south, you'll find a whole bunch, anyway, i think you can believe in evolution and still believe in God
 
iyfyoufhl said:
go south, you'll find a whole bunch, anyway, i think you can believe in evolution and still believe in God

There are a lot of creationists in Poland and Germany?
 
You can belive whatever you want to belive. What really p***ses me off is the creationists, stoping evolution being taught in schools, and the Museaum of Natural history was getting aload of complaints from them.

At the end of the day, if you want to belive in some blatentley ignorant concept then so be it. But don't try and make the rest of us do so, or impose it on your and other people children.
 
Evolution DOES happen, wether you believe in god or not.
Even if we were created "as humans" we would still evolve to something else, this is how we work.

You cross a ford and a toyota and you get something in between
It is shown how mutations occur and characterisitics change and get canceled out.
If humans continue breeding we will change, if you are strong in the environment you will survive to pass on your characteristics.

If evolution was false then you wouldn't have breeds of dogs........
A golden retriever was not a breed of dog a million years ago.
And before you say "oh that isn't natural selection", no it's not...it's forced selection but it is still the same principle.

Fossils have been found showing major differences in humans.

Quite simply if you don't think we evolved from something not quite human then you are an idiot, i treat you the same as someone who thinks squirrels fly spaceships and have a secret base under mt everest.
 
short recoil said:
You cross a ford and a toyota and you get something in between
.

a crappy/reliable car? ...btw toyota and ford should never be mentioned in the same sentence
 
i think Pope should step in and do something about this creationists
 
CptStern said:
a crappy/reliable car? ...btw toyota and ford should never be mentioned in the same sentence
...or a reliable car with great handling (toyota) and with a shitload of horsepower (ford). :D
 
a great car with superior handling that falls apart after the second year



save your sheckles buy imported
 
Hell...I've been waiting for GM to finally go bankrupt.

Here's to hoping! :cheers:

Oh wait..the topic.Uhhhhh....creationism is teh suck.
 
"if evolution was false then you wouldn't have breeds of dogs........
A golden retriever was not a breed of dog a million years ago. "

Im afraid thats called artificial selection, not evolution. So that doesnt back up youre claim at all. So please don't call anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, when know so little on the subject itself :/
 
solaris152000 said:
"if evolution was false then you wouldn't have breeds of dogs........
A golden retriever was not a breed of dog a million years ago. "

Im afraid thats called artificial selection, not evolution. So that doesnt back up youre claim at all. So please don't call anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, when know so little on the subject itself :/
Oh, is that what you think is it?

Read what i said after that quote, i am quite aware that isn't evolution, i was showing how genetically things change, quite drastically.

Don't take me for an idiot, i know more about evolutionary science than anyone else on this forum.
 
short recoil said:
Don't take me for an idiot, i know more about evolutionary science than anyone else on this forum.


well I wouldnt say that ...talk to Apos
 
Religion in general is for people that like simply lies instead of the complicated truth.
 
Grey Fox said:
Religion in general is for people that like simply lies instead of the complicated truth.
simplisity is beautiful
and by the way, main and most importaint laws or theories of science are quet simple, and there is no way u can prove God nor science to be wrong
simple is always better
 
iyfyoufhl said:
simplisity is beautiful
and by the way, main and most importaint laws or theories of science are quet simple, and there is no way u can prove God nor science to be wrong
simple is always better
If there is a big flaw in science (I don't know how all of science could be flawed at the same time) it could potentially be proven wrong. If you're talking about specific bits of scientific knowledge such as the world being flat or the sun orbiting the earth... those have been proven wrong on several occasions within written history. It's possible. The same can not be said of religion because the religious person only has to tell themselves that "God wanted to make it look like he didn't exist in order to test us." You can't prove to anyone that an all-powerful being doesn't exist.

EDIT: If simple is better you shouldn't be using a computer, the Internet, your brain, or any form of matter larger than several atoms. Our world is mind-bogglingly complex if you try to imagine how everything works. Complexity is what makes everything interesting. If you look out at nature and think it looks simple you're not paying attention.
 
OCybrManO said:
If there is a big flaw in science (I don't know how all of science could be flawed at the same time) it could potentially be proven wrong. If you're talking about specific bits of scientific knowledge such as the world being flat or the sun orbiting the earth... those have been proven wrong on several occasions within written history. It's possible. The same can not be said of religion because the religious person only has to tell themselves that "God wanted to make it look like he didn't exist in order to test us." You can't prove to anyone that an all-powerful being doesn't exist.
Yeah but there comes a point where you have to be reasonable.
I mean if i murdered somone i could say to the cops "oh but how can you prove i did it with upmost certainty......yes a hammer with his blood was found in my garage, but someone could have placed that there"

Of couse the cops would send me down anyway, even though there is the possibility that i didn't do it.

The same should be applied to beliefs.
 
Wait... which side of the argument do you think I'm on? That wasn't advocating either side. If you have the right evidence you can prove a scientific theory to be false. There is no amount of evidence that can convince the most religious person that they are wrong because their belief system has a built-in "I win" button. Think about it. If you are all-powerful you can bend logic and do absolutely anything else necessary to avoid being seen by "non-believers."
 
OCybrManO said:
Wait... which side of the argument do you think I'm on?
I presume you are pro evolution, not that it matters.

i was just picking up on the fact about not being able to prove something right or wrong.
You know there comes a point where you have to say "look, there is so much stacked for it, it would be silly to deny"

I think this is the case with evolution, i mean we could have been created as we are today and god could have thrown stuff to make it look like we evolved, but so i could have been innocent in the murder i was talking about too.
 
OCybrManO said:
If there is a big flaw in science (I don't know how all of science could be flawed at the same time) it could potentially be proven wrong. If you're talking about specific bits of scientific knowledge such as the world being flat or the sun orbiting the earth... those have been proven wrong on several occasions within written history. It's possible. The same can not be said of religion because the religious person only has to tell themselves that "God wanted to make it look like he didn't exist in order to test us." You can't prove to anyone that an all-powerful being doesn't exist.

EDIT: If simple is better you shouldn't be using a computer, the Internet, your brain, or any form of matter larger than several atoms. Our world is mind-bogglingly complex if you try to imagine how everything works. Complexity is what makes everything interesting. If you look out at nature and think it looks simple you're not paying attention.
i meant the under lying formula for all the science is simple
and theoreticly speaking nothing could be proven
 
short recoil said:
I presume you are pro evolution, not that it matters.

i was just picking up on the fact about not being able to prove something right or wrong.
You know there comes a point where you have to say "look, there is so much stacked for it, it would be silly to deny"

I think this is the case with evolution, i mean we could have been created as we are today and god could have thrown stuff to make it look like we evolved, but so i could have been innocent in the murder i was talking about too.
well, people though for thousands of ages that the earth was flat, because it was reasonable to them, but doesn't mean that it was right, but see i'm speaking for general and somewhat philosophic that you can't really prove anything
 
iyfyoufhl said:
well, people though for thousands of ages that the earth was flat, because it was reasonable to them, but doesn't mean that it was right, but see i'm speaking for general and somewhat philosophic that you can't really prove anything
You can't prove that it is impossible to prove anything. :rolling:
 
iyfyoufhl said:
well, people though for thousands of ages that the earth was flat, because it was reasonable to them, but doesn't mean that it was right, but see i'm speaking for general and somewhat philosophic that you can't really prove anything
You have a fair point.

OCybrManO said:
You can't prove that it is impossible to prove anything. :rolling:
Hehe, this is where these arguments always go, everyone ends up rocking back and forth on the floor mumbling as we try and solve crazy ideas in our heads.
 
i'm just saying that people shouldn't take Bible litteraly, then they wouldn't have a problem agreeing that evolution doesn't contridict the Bible
 
short recoil said:
Hehe, this is where these arguments always go, everyone ends up rocking back and forth on the floor mumbling as we try and solve crazy ideas in our heads.
I'm going to go back to my work on M-Theory... this religion stuff is too complex and abstract!
 
CptStern said:
heh not here they're not ...I've met a few creationists in my time ..always get stumped when I ask them about dinosaurs or the age of the earth ..their answer is always something along the lines of "it's all part of god's mysterious plan" ..which usually invokes a choke-hold response out of me: "around here <punch> we obey <punch> the laws of logic <punch>" ...I kid

I dunno, maybe you haven't met the right people. Ask my grandpa, and he'll go on about the fact that there were likely millions upon millions of years before Adam and Eve were created.

As he says, "In the bible god tells Adam to replenish the earth. How are you to replenish if there was nothing there to begin with? I think the world was destroyed over at least two times before the flood. There could have likely been billions of years of a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2."
 
Raziaar said:
I dunno, maybe you haven't met the right people. Ask my grandpa, and he'll go on about the fact that there were likely millions upon millions of years before Adam and Eve were created.

As he says, "In the bible god tells Adam to replenish the earth. How are you to replenish if there was nothing there to begin with? I think the world was destroyed over at least two times before the flood. There could have likely been billions of years of a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2."
I believe Eddie Izzard's bit about the dinosaurs. It would help explain why God didn't tell us about them. They were a huge ****ing failure. Would you show everyone what crap your last creation turned out to be?
 
OCybrManO said:
I believe Eddie Izzard's bit about the dinosaurs. It would help explain why God didn't tell us about them. They were a huge ****ing failure. Would you show everyone what crap your last creation turned out to be?
well, the whole idea of God is that he doesn't make mistakes, i think dinosors where here for a reason that we havn't figured out yet (maybe we did)
 
Raziaar said:
I dunno, maybe you haven't met the right people. Ask my grandpa, and he'll go on about the fact that there were likely millions upon millions of years before Adam and Eve were created.

As he says, "In the bible god tells Adam to replenish the earth. How are you to replenish if there was nothing there to begin with? I think the world was destroyed over at least two times before the flood. There could have likely been billions of years of a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2."

the only problem with that is according to the bible the world is only around 10,000 years old ...not to mention that god created man on the sixth day:


"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."



and I dont buy that 24 hours = x amount, according to bible revisionists ..it's just an attempt to rationalise a glaring error in the bible
 
iyfyoufhl said:
well, the whole idea of God is that he doesn't make mistakes, i think dinosors where here for a reason that we havn't figured out yet (maybe we did)
Being able to make something perfect wouldn't necessarily require that you make something perfect. Wouldn't that go against being all-powerful? Anyway, I know I never work as hard as I can (not that I could make anything perfect). Maybe he just didn't feel like trying very hard at the time... or... what if God created a drug so powerful that it could even **** him up? Then, while he was out of his mind he got the idea to make the dinosaurs.
 
CptStern said:
the only problem with that is according to the bible the world is only around 10,000 years old ...not to mention that god created man on the sixth day:


"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."



and I dont buy that 24 hours = x amount, according to bible revisionists ..it's just an attempt to rationalise a glaring error in the bible
see, there you go, you take Bible litterally, for all we know one day in God's schedural could be millions of years, there wasn't even sun or any planets on the "first day" so who could that be count as a day?
if you don't buy it, then don't, doesn't mean it's wrong
 
OCybrManO said:
Being able to make something perfect wouldn't necessarily require that you make something perfect. I know I never work as hard as I can (not that I could make anything perfect). Maybe he just didn't feel like trying very hard at the time.... or... what if God created a drug so powerful that it could even **** him up? Then, while he was out of his mind he got the idea to make the dinosaurs.
now you just got silly, the idea of God is that he is not a human being, he is the beging the the end, he is perfect all the time, he can't get lazy nor does he need drugs, we don't know if God is he or she or it or anything, i look at God as being everyting he know, see, feel, we all make up God (my personal believe)
 
iyfyoufhl said:
see, there you go, you take Bible litterally, for all we know one day in God's schedural could be millions of years, there wasn't even sun or any planets on the "first day" so who could that be count as a day?
if you don't buy it, then don't, doesn't mean it's wrong

yes but that makes no sense ..why wouldnt god just say .."a million years" instead of "on the sixth day"? My problem is that it all boils down to whatever explanation is most convienent
 
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