Creationism vs Evolution

[Warbie]

A dear friend of mine and I have been debating this topic for a while now. He's a Christian and firmly believes in Creationism, I believe in evolution.

Both my parents are geophysicists. Having grown up surrounded by fossils, old bones and arrow heads, i've always taken the theory of evolution for granted.

In attempting to disprove creationism i've learnt a great deal about evolutionary theories. What suprised me, however, was that in exploring this topic my fascination in the world around us has increased greatly. It's easy to accept something without really understanding it, without applying this knowledge to everyday life. You'd be suprised by how many people can't give an accurate definition of evolution, yet believe in it without question.

My mate is away in Brasil on business at the moment, and I miss our little chats. Anyone here have any views on this topic?

 

[CptStern]

ooooh what a can of worms to open

evolution, creationism is a little too fanciful for me

 

[Warbie]

Go on, you know u want to

 

[CptStern]

muuuussst resissit!!! temptation to flame toooo strong


ok what the hey:

"God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion. "
--Supernintendo Chalmers

 

[oldagerocker]

i did a short essay on this as part of some biology coursework. I come from a christian background, although not a strict section of the faith, and i dont hold these views now, but they put it that Creation is what happend, God did make everything... But, evolution is how it was done, afterall the translation of the hebrew word for "Day" can also mean "passage of time", in which case it would fit... you have to remember this is the beginning of a long book, and to get people to read it, tell it to others and believe in it, it does have to be a mystical story, especially at the time it was written and in the society it was written.
My own view is that both theories are just as likely, with science you have to take a leap of faith, you have to believe in chance and there's allot of science that isnt explaned.
Same with religion, it is just as likely, if you take that leap of faith to believe in a God.
its up to the person what to think, and whatever they are more comfortable with.

 

[Pogrom]

Well, I'm not a Christian (anymore) although I did spend all of my primary and high school life at private Catholic schools. I've also always taken Evolution for granted. Until I met a girl in Year 11 who believed in Creationism. I was stupefied.

What confuses the hell out of me is why people can't believe Evolution has no conflict with the Christian ideology. If you believe in God, why not believe he was behind evolution?

The Bible was obviously not meant to be taken literally, or there would be an awful lot of contradiction in everyday life.

 

[oldagerocker]

If you take it literally, there's loads of contradictions in the bible... i just see it as a fairy-tale story, Based in possible factual events but exaggerated and changed through the years to extremes. It does convery morals that people can follow tho, therefore, the appropriate religion.

 

[Eejit]

God did make everything... But, evolution is how it was done

That's more or less my view too. I enjoy science, and I think I'm quite scientifically minded, but I have religion too (catholic, for reference).
For example, the very beginnings of life are a bit of a mystery - the formation of the first amino acids, followed by proteins etc. It seems a bit of a longshot that it could happen by chance, imo God's at work there.
Same thing with us evolving intelligence. Sure there are theories about diets of seaweed increasing brain size, or having to resort to tools to survive on plains, but I don't see how that could lead to sentience, just greater 'animal cunning'. I think God helping/causing humans to become intelligent is what the bible means about Him creating us in His image.

 

[Pogrom]

If you take it literally, there's loads of contradictions in the bible... i just see it as a fairy-tale story, Based in possible factual events but exaggerated and changed through the years to extremes. It does convery morals that people can follow tho, therefore, the appropriate religion.

Not to mention the various translation attempts that no doubt caused some problems

Although I broadly agree with you, I don't quite follow when you say "the appropriate religion".

Do you mean it is an appropriate religion or the appropriate religion?

 

[oldagerocker]

i always thought Humans as we know them were always inteligent, they jsut evolved bigger brains...can you really do that much with our inteligence when your running around trying to survive?
Technology has been improved small pieces by pieces over the years and its taken for granted, the average joe doesnt know how things work... if i had to rebuilt a clock i couldnt do it... but i use it so much and most of my life revolves around time.

There may well be no god whatsoever, we may have been put together by alien races, there's some old buildings dating back to before the bible, i cant remember the name of the tribe right now. but they discovered geometry long before anyone else, their structures are based upon modern designs, they also believed that their 'god', came from outside earth in a craft anfd taught them these things.

Then again, we could have come together by complete chance of DNA mutations and natural selections down the thousands of years...
I think religion and the question really comes from our consiousness, we cant experience anyone else's minds... thats why we think animals dont have them, they are just instincts,. but are they?
Nobody can say for sure where this free-thinking experience we have comes from... and people befopre just put it down to God, as they previoulsy did with Rain and the Sun.

 

[Warbie]

It's refreshing hear that view oldagerocker, every Christian i've spoken to on this topic takes the Bible literally.

What baffles me is that many creationists try to support their argument with scientific proof. I always thought that religion was about taking a leap in faith. Looking for supporting evidence seems to defeat the object (especially as the evidence overwhelmingly supports evoltuion).

 

[oldagerocker]

i ment whatever religion you want to take from the bible, judaism, christianity's sections - baptism, evangelicalism (sp), etc. whatever religion the person follows to gain the morals being promoted.

Edit : Im not a Christian, i dont swing either way. Saying that, i do understand the morals and lessons shown and accept them, but they must be applied to society today and not a fantasy world, allot of over-zealous people preach on.

 

[Eejit]

It's refreshing hear that view oldagerocker, every Christian i've spoken to on this topic takes the Bible literally.

What baffles me is that many creationists try to support their argument with scientific proof. I always thought that religion was about taking a leap in faith. Looking for supporting evidence seems to defeat the object (especially as the evidence overwhelmingly supports evoltuion).

I used to troll fascist chatrooms, it was fun.... anyway some of them talk the craziest shit about evolution/creationism (as you'd expect), like 'white' people were created by god, but those of other race are evolved from monkeys. *sigh* :flame:

 

[oldagerocker]

like 'white' people were created by god, but those of other race are evolved from monkeys. *sigh* :flame:

lol, that made me laugh
I cant believe people would think something as moronic as that. lol! :bounce:

 

[LittleB]

God (or the Gods, or the God Energies, whatever it is for anybody) created the universe, knowing that after many many years, intelligence would start popping up all over the place, through evolution.

So actually I guess it's both.

 

[CptStern]

I used to troll fascist chatrooms, it was fun.... anyway some of them talk the craziest shit about evolution/creationism (as you'd expect), like 'white' people were created by god, but those of other race are evolved from monkeys. *sigh* :flame:

not too suprising...someone here said the mentally handicapped should be exterminated

 

[Warbie]

not too suprising...someone here said the mentally handicapped should be exterminated

Let it go big guy, he isn't worth it

 

[CptStern]

heh I'm still fuming

 

[Eejit]

not too suprising...someone here said the mentally handicapped should be exterminated

Was it Adolf reborn?

On a vaugely related theme to the main topic I also think God caused the Big Bang

 

[Pogrom]

i ment whatever religion you want to take from the bible, judaism, christianity's sections - baptism, evangelicalism (sp), etc. whatever religion the person follows to gain the morals being promoted.

Edit : Im not a Christian, i dont swing either way. Saying that, i do understand the morals and lessons shown and accept them, but they must be applied to society today and not a fantasy world, allot of over-zealous people preach on.

But if you are looking for morality, then many other world religions promote almost identical morals.

Just look at Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism and any number of tribal beliefs.

 

[oldagerocker]

Im not saying they arent just as valid because they dont come from the bible, them beliefs are bound to be throughout human settlements, surely its human nature not to kill, to be kind and generous etc etc.
The bible is just another way of the society reaffirming those beliefs and passing them on within the book, as does the religions you have mentioned, through other methods.

 

[Pogrom]

Im not saying they arent just as valid because they dont come from the bible, them beliefs are bound to be throughout human settlements, surely its human nature not to kill, to be kind and generous etc etc.
The bible is just another way of the society reaffirming those beliefs and passing them on within the book, as does the religions you have mentioned, through other methods.

Fair enough, I reckon.

Nothing inherently wrong with any of the major religions in the world (all extremists aside )

 

[oldagerocker]

i dont think anyone (except the extremists) can do anything but concur with that.
personally i think the Jedi religion is the best... afterall, Everyone wants to believe that have the force !

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Im not saying they arent just as valid because they dont come from the bible, them beliefs are bound to be throughout human settlements, surely its human nature not to kill, to be kind and generous etc etc.

that's not necessarily human nature at all. societal ethics may include those rules of behavior, and that may be why they end up in societal moral codes, like holy texts. but if you examine modern hunter-gather societies (like those found in new guinea) there is nothing taboo about killing other people when you first meet them (especially if they are not from your clan). certainly, functional large societies require a different set of rules, but these rules are no more "human nature" than the rules of other types human habitation, both in the past and in the present. just fyi.

for me, a geologist in training and agnostic (as in i don't care about god until i get some sort of revelation or something), i put little credence in creationism. evolution, to my mind, has sufficient supporting observations in paleontology, genetics, anatomy, ecology, human/animal behavior, etc. that it's extremely unlikely that it is not a good description of reality. i don't think there is any need to flesh out the specifics of my analysis, as it's all already been said in numerous threads. personally, i don't understand how any thinking person could believe in creationism, but there are a lot of things i don't understand. :dork:

 

[oldagerocker]

Lil Timmy, there much chemistry in Geology? i wanted to get into it but i was discouraged because the units at uni included advanced Chemistry :| i got scared and went for Environmental Science :/

 

[Warbie]

Lil Timmy, there much chemistry in Geology? i wanted to get into it but i was discouraged because the units at uni included advanced Chemistry :| i got scared and went for Environmental Science :/

That wasn't what put me off - it was the thought spending months in a tent looking at rocks XD The thought of spending half my degree on a mountain in scotland wasn't too appealing (I guess this isn't the same with all universities?)

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Lil Timmy, there much chemistry in Geology? i wanted to get into it but i was discouraged because the units at uni included advanced Chemistry :| i got scared and went for Environmental Science :/

yes and no.. it depends on the school/program. i went to a small liberal arts college, so there was no chemistry required for the major. however, all graduate schools will require a year of chemistry (which means if you don't have it you'll have to take it in grad school) along with a year of physics and a year or two of math. but i found chemistry to be one of the more interesting courses outside of geology that i took. the professor was great though, so maybe it was just him. anyway take what you like. if you can, talk to the geology professors and ask them what exactly you need to take. also try to get a feel for them. sit in on some classes and see if you like it or not (maybe audit one?).

That wasn't what put me off - it was the thought spending months in a tent looking at rocks XD The thought of spending half my degree on a mountain in scotland wasn't too appealing (I guess this isn't the same with all universities?)

right, it depends on where you go to school. obviously if you take geology at university of colorado, you're going to be looking at orogeny and stratigraphy in the field alot. if you go to hawaii.. expect to study volcanoes. if you're not interested in rocks and the history of the earth that they reveal, then taking geology is probably not a good idea.

 

[KagePrototype]

You ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Ya ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day." Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.

Fundamentalists take it to be the word. Not transferable. Not metaphorical. THE WORD. 'In the beginning' ~ Genesis, 'Let there be light.' Could that be a metaphor for the big bang? No! God just went click!

I thought I'd inject a little humour into the thread before the inevitable flaming begins.

 

[oldagerocker]

"if you're not interested in rocks and the history of the earth that they reveal, then taking geology is probably not a good idea."

lol... i just love Glaciers I spoke to a professuer, he said that its best to have a science/chem background to it, althought i have Bio (not a good grade tho ) and Geography, i think with the course being full of math and chemisty, it wouldnt suit me. from what the professure said, i got a bad impression. So i thought il stick with Env Sci and do units im interested in aswell as the compulsory ones. im interested in the lot really, just cant do math/chem

 

[blahblahblah]

This thread is too chilly for me to jump in on the creationist side.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

lol... i just love Glaciers I spoke to a professuer, he said that its best to have a science/chem background to it, althought i have Bio (not a good grade tho ) and Geography, i think with the course being full of math and chemisty, it wouldnt suit me. from what the professure said, i got a bad impression. So i thought il stick with Env Sci and do units im interested in aswell as the compulsory ones. im interested in the lot really, just cant do math/chem

that's the right way to approach it. you might want to sit-in on or audit the course if you can. i spent abotu six-months studying the jakobshavn glacier in greenland, and certainly math is important (fluid dynamics), but i'm not sure what the chemistry aspect would be other than aqueous geo-chemistry (which you surely need for envi, right?)

edit: oh wait, i misunderstood (i thought you were talking about a glacier class). um.. well, you should try chem 101 (or the equivalent) just to see if you like it or not, you never know.

 

[Janet Reno]

"i always thought Humans as we know them were always inteligent, they jsut evolved bigger brains...can you really do that much with our inteligence when your running around trying to survive?"


We don't need bigger brains to be smarter though. Modern computers are an excellent example of this. The faster computers are actually smaller, and to go faster they're going to have to get smaller. I don't think man had a reason to evolve from monkeys. We evolve for a reason don't we, I mean that's part of the theory isn't it? What was that reason though. Why are there still monkeys now? If there was a reason to evolve, why is there still a remenance of the past. Why is there still a remenance of the old, of what needed to change? Don't they need to be like us?

The part I don't understand is why every evolutionist says creationism is a huge leap of faith. Of course it takes faith. But wouldn't that make evolutionism as much a religion also? Because it's just a theory, it's never been proven and never will be. And it requires faith, why isn't it as much a religion as creationism?

For all we know, it takes faith to believe I'm real and typing this. None of you know I'm real but it takes faith.

 

[Neutrino]

I say we just stick to discussing geology in here. It's an interesting subject, and the evolution vs creationism thing has been tried numerous times before.

 

[pat_thetic]

If people can believe that god existed forever, why can't they think that the universe has existed forever?

 

[Pogrom]

If people can believe that god existed forever, why can't they think that the universe has existed forever?

Exactly! They are not mutually exclusive!

 

[Neutrino]

"i always thought Humans as we know them were always inteligent, they jsut evolved bigger brains...can you really do that much with our inteligence when your running around trying to survive?"


We don't need bigger brains to be smarter though. Modern computers are an excellent example of this. The faster computers are actually smaller, and to go faster they're going to have to get smaller. I don't think man had a reason to evolve from monkeys. We evolve for a reason don't we, I mean that's part of the theory isn't it? What was that reason though. Why are there still monkeys now? If there was a reason to evolve, why is there still a remenance of the past. Why is there still a remenance of the old, of what needed to change? Don't they need to be like us?

The part I don't understand is why every evolutionist says creationism is a huge leap of faith. Of course it takes faith. But wouldn't that make evolutionism as much a religion also? Because it's just a theory, it's never been proven and never will be. And it requires faith, why isn't it as much a religion as creationism?

For all we know, it takes faith to believe I'm real and typing this. None of you know I'm real but it takes faith.

Whoa, boy.

As much as I'd like to I'm staying away from this one. I'd just suggest that you read up a bit more on evolutionary theory. Suffice it to say, there is a huge difference between a religious point of view and a scientific theory that is supported by numerous facts.

 

[SFLUFAN]

I'm a pretty devout Roman Catholic and as such, I don't take a literal approach to the Bible.

As a result, I see no conflict between the theories of Creationism or Evolution. How is that possible? Simple - God allowed Evolution to happen. If one looks at the series of events in Genesis and Darwin's theories, they share some remarkable similarities. For example, God said "Let There Be Light...and There Was Light". This could EASILY be the "Big Bang" that formed the universe. Look at the progression of species in Genesis, from the water to the land to man (Adam and Eve) - this follows the progression of Evolution as well.

The way I see it is this - the Bible was written thousands of years ago and the human mind hadn't developed to such a stage as to grasp the concept of Evolution. Thus, when God explained the story of how the world came about to Moses (who wrote Genesis), He had to use a simplified version...otherwise He would've gotten a big "Huh?!?" from Moses.

 

[Warbie]

I say we just stick to discussing geology in here.

Speak for yourself. I've grown up hearing little else and have had enough of rocks

 

[oldagerocker]

yeah envi includes Env, but the course im more set up for with my biology A level (hoping i pass atleast).
Just looked at the units and Basic Chemistry is Optional, thats a turn up for the books.
i can get thru the chem that i need (in 1st year they must do some), im sure i can give it a go when i put my mind to it, the last time i did chem was GCSE, and i just couldnt do Moles ;P
Im just hoping i get into the course, i need BBC, B in Geog, C in Bio. but, so far ive only got D's in Bio *crosses fingers* lol... oh well.
My second option is Physical Geography in Portsmouth, but im not so keen on Portsmouth now, anyone in the forums live/work/go there, who can reignite my passion for the place?

 

[PvtRyan]

Whoa, boy.

As much as I'd like to I'm staying away from this one. I'd just suggest that you read up a bit more on evolutionary theory. Suffice it to say, there is a huge difference between a religious point of view and a scientific theory that is supported by numerous facts.

True. There's too many flaws in his post for me to point them all out, I suggest him to read www.talkorigins.org

And I'm not touching threads like this anymore, never has such a thread in the history of the internet came to an agreement between the parties. And I don't wanna flame here, but that's mostly because of the stubborn creationists.