Did HL2 feel like a new game rather than a Sequel to you?

[Dancingwllamas]

I think the whole messianic undercurrent wasn't used properly. Ok, everyone's telling you that you are The One, basically, but it doesn't really lead anywhere. There's no final, epic battle where you lead the resistance to victory, or awe-inspiring heroism.

Did you miss the part where you kill off Breen (or so one could assume), destroy the device in the museum that is the chief source of oppression of humankind, and destroy the Citadel?

I would call that victory.

 

[CriYam]

They certainly do! The story was deep and the way it is done is very well executed. You have to dig for the facts and it makes you think about it.

You just don't appreciate this kind of storytelling or simply lost. Hey, but that is just you....

As for it being a sequel. Well the the story is a direct continuation. Yes a long time has past but if you pay attention it is not difficult to understand what happened.

Read this. It is a good theory about the story even though I dont personally fully agree with everything.

http://members.shaw.ca/storage_4/hl2story/


The gameplay gave me the same feel as I had playing HL1.

OK, digging for facts ingame in HL2 and linking to specualtion on that shaw site are completely different.

I also don't believe I should have to buy a strategy guide book to get any information.

 

[not28]

Did you miss the part where you kill off Breen (or so one could assume), destroy the device in the museum that is the chief source of oppression of humankind, and destroy the Citadel?

I would call that victory.

That part was interrupted by a boring monologue by the G-Man. Instead of reaping the benefits of your victory, you're put to sleep and the game ends.

 

[Fighter]

There's no final, epic battle where you lead the resistance to victory, or awe-inspiring heroism.

I personally think big final battles agains a big bad guy is a cliche. The game ends the way it should, with a mystery and with provisions for a more epic saga to come.

There is awe-inspiring heroism, if you did not demonstrate it fighting on the streets of City 17 then that again is just you....

 

[Fighter]

OK, digging for facts ingame in HL2 and linking to specualtion on that shaw site are completely different.

I also don't believe I should have to buy a strategy guide book to get any information.

One: That is why I do not agree with everything.

Two: I only said it was a theory.

Three: Vast majority of the facts are in the game, I do not have any sort of strategy guide.

 

[not28]

I personally think big final battles agains a big bad guy is a cliche. The game ends the way it should, with a mystery and with provisions for a more epic saga to come.

I didn't wait six years for a story with no resolution.

 

[SFLUFAN]

Fortunately, lack of a clear resolution is the nature of the Half-Life series - and it's one that I really think distinguishes itself from other pieces of this genre.

 

[CriYam]

One: That is why I do not agree with everything.

Two: I only said it was a theory.

Three: Vast majority of the facts are in the game, I do not have any sort of strategy guide.

Would you please tell me half of the vast majority of facts are?

And about the strategy guide comment, I just wanted to add that in there before someone started a paragraph with "well in the strategy guide it says..."

 

[not28]

"That part was interrupted by a boring monologue by the G-Man. Instead of reaping the benefits of your victory, you're put to sleep and the game ends."

I thought it was great, showing us even more of what the G-Man is capable of.

The whole big bad guy at the end is used by so many games, I thought it was a much more interesting way to end the way it did.

And just what is be capable of? Vague gibberish and making the screen go black? How boring. I wanted an ending that fit with the rest of the game. Everything else was great, but the finale sucked.

 

[ScRaTcH-A-HoLiC]

Fortunately, lack of a clear resolution is the nature of the Half-Life series - and it's one that I really think distinguishes itself from other pieces of this genre.

I toataly agree with your statement.

 

[Fighter]

I didn't wait six years for a story with no resolution.

I didn't either, I waited for a great game and a great story and I beleive I got it.

I would rather continue this great story then have a resolution now and be done with it. This feels like a beginning of something big. And as alredy said by others this is the Half-Life style and it is consistant with it.

 

[subtlesnake]

Well, you never really do rescue Eli, you're kinda captured to him.

And mounting a final attack on the combine would have been great, that's what I felt was missing, after all that running away I was hoping for a complete turn around where you unite everyone to go on the offfensive.

Instead they installed a shortcut by making you slow teleport over a week, so the resistance had all the fun of working towards that old museum for that week; where you cakewalk up to the place.

The time gap was neccesary to create a fully war torn city. I liked the transition - realising I'd just walked out of the same flats (now destroyed) that I started the game in was great. Dr. Kliener really sold it when you left the teleport. It was obvious by his mannersims that something was wrong, but you weren't sure what.

I think where the story falls down is that there isn't one unified objective. The player needs to feel that there is an ultimate goal and a road he must tread to reach it. Instead we sort of bump into the Citadel and then *wham* we're inside.

The final levels should have geared up for entering the Citadel, culminating in a final almost mythical journey that Gordon has to tread alone, with the monolith looming large ahead.

"It's up to you now Gordon" "We've prepared some supplies, take what you need and good luck"

 

[Spartan]

Did you miss the part where you kill off Breen (or so one could assume), destroy the device in the museum that is the chief source of oppression of humankind, and destroy the Citadel?

I would call that victory.

There was nothing epic or "messianic" about it.

It wasn't the chief source of oppression of humandkind, and the destruction of the Citadel is uncertain at best.

 

[CriYam]

The whole big bad guy at the end is used by so many games, I thought it was a much more interesting way to end the way it did.
I certainly didnt expect it, I thought the old get running, escape before it blows was going to happen.

People have been asking for an ending that answered some questions and left you feeling like you accomplished something.
Valve wanted you to be Gordon, but if I was Gordon and was told I have to run through hordes of enemies for no particualr reason I would tell them to F-off.

I see alot of people talking about the cliched big bad boss guy, but why? Has anyone asked for one?

 

[not28]

I didn't either, I waited for a great game and a great story and I beleive I got it.

I would rather continue this great story then have a resolution now and be done with it. This feels like a beginning of something big. And as alredy said by others this is the Half-Life style and it is consistant with it.

Jesus Christ, I am not talking about an ending to the entire Half-Life story. I'm talking about an actual ending to the story that took place within Half-Life 2. Whether you like it or not, Half-Life 2 has its own storyline, independent from the overall theme of the series, and the ending just didn't satify it. Maybe you're just more easily impressed than I am, but I'm tired of seeing the same ending over and over for every Half-Life game.

 

[Fighter]

I think where the story falls down is that there isn't one unified objective. The player needs to feel that there is an ultimate goal and a road he must tread to reach it. Instead we sort of bump into the Citadel and then *wham* we're inside.

Saving Alyx and Eli? Fighting for freedom? (atleast that is what it apears to be)

 

[Mickeey]

U guys ever gave it a thought that...maybe Half-life 3 lays the game between HL1 and HL2?

HL-2's ending was the way the whole HL story ends, and HL-3 goes back to what happened after black mesa, and answers all the questions throughout the game as you play, (you'll get the story of the combine, and what gordon have been doing maybe) just a though :hmph:

and btw...i don't think of Ravenholm as a non-fit-in part of the story line, if you listen to Alyx on the way to the gravitygun scrapyard scene, you'll come pass a big tunnel-alike thing, and she says "thats the passage to ravenholm, we dont go there anymore..., we're trying to find a safer route to my fathers lab...bla bla..." and since the scrapyard gets attacked from scanners and a chopper, you'll have to retreat to kleiners lab, but ofcorse theres a massive stone-bricks-things that blocks the way right after alyx get away, and the only way outta there is the tunnel to ravenholm..i think it fits great, and the map itself s kickass

 

[.Transmit]

Yeh, it would be cool if the army from HL1 suddenly was by your side and fighting along with you, because now they really look like losers not being able to stop the combine.

 

[Reaperman]

an anticlimax only works after an exiting story...


sure they add a little newspaper clipping that says "the combine won, breen in charge of earth", but thats really all the backstory you get, the rest of the game is


1. Im getting off a train to city 17, wow, good graphics, these people look oppressed... you, citizen, come with me!

2. Arrive in kliners lab, "We are fighting the combine, wow, gordon freeman, OMFG TELIPORT ACCIDENT! RUN!"

3. Run and shoot for what seems like 3 hours (i didnt like route kanal) and talk to random "resistance members" who either die right away, or stay where they are. RUN SHOOT RUN SHOOT!

4. Helicopter, run, get gun, shoot, boom

5. Arrive in black mesa east, read newspaper, learn what you already know (the combine are in charge), and get the gravity gun

6. ValVe: uh oh, 5 minutes without combat, we can put a stop to that! SCANNERS! RUN!

7. Seperated from alyx, cool sequence in ravenholm (this is how the game should be done, constant interaction with NPC, tell a STORY)

8. more running, more shooting, get buggy, run run shoot shoot

9. nova prospekt, see Gman, see the stalker, wtf, blah blah run run shoot shoot throw antlion balls

10. Sand traps, meet NPC early on, of course he either dies or stays on that rock for no reason (valve: NPC interaction? we cant have that!)


the last fourth of the game is fun, anticitizen was a little barren, but acceptable


overall, the game had almost no plot, even if you talk to every NPC, and read every newspaper clipping

 

[Spartan]

i don't think of Ravenholm as a non-fit-in part of the story line, if you listen to Alyx on the way to the gravitygun scrapyard scene, you'll come pass a big tunnel-alike thing, and she says "thats the passage to ravenholm, we dont go there anymore..., we're trying to find a safer route to my fathers lab...bla bla..." and since the scrapyard gets attacked from scanners and a chopper, you'll have to retreat to kleiners lab, but ofcorse theres a massive stone-bricks-things that blocks the way right after alyx get away, and the only way outta there is the tunnel to ravenholm..i think it fits great, and the map itself s kickass

As far as I remember, you have to go because Eli says that Gordon needs to get out of C17 (for no reason - it won't be long until you return and walk straight to the Citadel), so Alyx gets the bright idea of sending you to die in Ravenholm. You could have stayed to fight the Combine. Alyx told dog to meet up with her using an alternate route. Dog also could have just moved the rubble out of the way. Gordon's weaponry should have accomplished the same. Or Gordon could have just followed Dog.

 

[Fighter]

Jesus Christ, I am not talking about an ending to the entire Half-Life story. I'm talking about an actual ending to the story that took place within Half-Life 2. Whether you like it or not, Half-Life 2 has its own storyline, independent from the overall theme of the series, and the ending just didn't satify it. Maybe you're just more easily impressed than I am, but I'm tired of seeing the same ending over and over for every Half-Life game.

No I think it is you who expects a more traditional story. With all the old tricks and a standard format, a story I would likely not be impressed by........

 

[subtlesnake]

Saving Alyx and Eli? Fighting for freedom? (atleast that is what it apears to be)

That's the aim, correct. But the levels need to remind the player of this.

HL2's plot did feel extremely 'real' though. There wasn't some ridiculously overblown conclusion, or a mythical journey in which Gordon toppled the Citadel. He did his job and completed the mission set by the G-man.

I feel this was intentional, and I can appreciate what Valve tried to do. I personally thought the ending was genius.

 

[Fighter]

That is exactly why the ending is genious. You think you know what the goal is, but in reallity you know nothing. Gordon has no idea what G-mans's bigger plans are.

 

[24Gamer]

Some people say HL2 is a rehash of the first HL1. Some people say HL2 is too different from HL1. You really can't please everyone.

Yes, i think HL2 is TOO much like HL1. i played HL1 a few days before HL2 and most of the gameplay was too familiar (jumping puzzles, several weapons are the same, same linear gameplay).

as Jiffra said, you cant please everyone.

Im still happy with HL2 tho.

 

[CriYam]

That is exactly why the ending is genious. You think you know what the goal is, but in reallity you know nothing. Gordon has no idea what G-mans's bigger plans are.

Heh, He also doesn't know the lesser plans or why the people are being oppressed, why people can't have babies, why there are headcrabs walking around, who the combine are, what they want or where they are from.

I think the only thing you (Gordon) do know, is that you want some of Alyx's sweet ass. If only you weren't so shy....

 

[Mountain Man]

Some people say HL2 is a rehash of HL1. Some people say HL2 is too different from HL1. You really can't please everyone.

That about sums it up.

 

[Spartan]

HL2's plot did feel extremely 'real' though. There wasn't some ridiculously overblown conclusion, or a mythical journey in which Gordon toppled the Citadel. He did his job and completed the mission set by the G-man.

Well, why establish Gordon as a mythical, messianic saviour, then?

 

[Lanthanide]

Look, the problem with Half Life 2 is that it -uses- HL1's same storytelling technique. Only it didn't work this time around. Why?

In HL1, you are given a complete and full background to who you are during the train-ride: "Subject: Gordon Freeman. Education: blah blah" etc. It tells you who you are, and where you are (Black Mesa Research Facility) and why. All other questions can be answered easily by saying "You're on present-day Earth, somewhere in a desert-y part of America in an underground secret research base". The end. You don't NEED to know any more details than that because you can assume it is just like modern day earth until proven otherwise.

HL2 fails here because the background is never fully explained (headlines in newspapers do not tell stories - the articles tell the stories. If we could have read them, fine. But we can't, they're too small). You know you're on earth. You know Breen and the combine are in charge. You don't really have any idea why, or how, or when any of this occured, and it is never answered. HL1 didn't have to answer these sorts of questions in it's exposition because they weren't required, so when you take the HL1 model and use it in HL2, it fails for precisely this reason. Another problem in HL2 is the Ant Lions - what the hell are they and where did they come from? In HL1 we know that all the aliens teleport in from Xen, but in HL2 we never find out anything about the ant lions, other than that the vortigaunts for some reason (also never explained) know how to get pheripods out of them.

Similarly, the "get to the surface" then "get to lambda core" major plot points of HL1 are similar to those of HL2 - "get to Eli's base" then "get out of the city and meet back with Alyx, somehow" but again it doesn't work in HL2 because in HL1 you really had nowhere else to go - you're in a secret underground research base (with few exits) most of which you've never seen or didn't know existed. However in HL2 there's no real reason to force you to do these things - instead of going down highway 17, why couldn't you just run out into the countryside? Or hide-out in Ravenholm and wait for the resistance to come through after you? Or hide out in the remains of Black Mesa East until all the fighting ended? Thus, the choice of going to ravenholm and thence highway 17 feels very contrived and silly - in HL1 there was obviously and logically no other choice available to you, but in HL2 other feasible alternatives are available (because they didn't do a good enough job to point out why they were unfeasible or properly construct the goals involved). Just a short example of what they could have done to make this more cohesive - you escape Ravenholm and get to the first resistance camp, they could have told you to deliver something to that british guy - now you have a clear reason for going along the beach, rather than just going and hiding somewhere else and waiting for Alyx. Then when you get there, he could tell you something about the base that is at the lighthouse, like "they have valuable knowledge about how to free Eli" - this is more of a reason than just 'you have to go there anyway'.


I agree with what someone else said about having a big moment when you get into the citadel, rather than the sort of anti-climax (and sudden) entrance that it was. In HL1 you get to the barney and kliener that are holled up with all the weapons ready and the long-jump module and they give you a warning about what is up ahead, then you have the whole "defend the teleport" sequence, where you rush out and the scientist dies just as you leave. However in HL2, when you finally reach your goal, you just simply slip in through the back with no fanfare or buildup from the resistance - no one seems to care that you're about to go into the most dangerous place on the planet and hopefully fulfill all of their wildest dreams.


IMO the storytelling of HL2 is full of so many missed opportunities they had to clear up the backstory and current motivations of the player. Eg: Eli could tell you some of the horrors that occured during the portal storm to him and his family - he hasn't seen you for 10 years, so he's sharing how he survived the past (as anyone would realistically do IRL - if you meet someone after WW2 that you hadn't seen for 5 years, you'd be interested to find out, if only briefly, how they managed to survive). The vortigaunt could have said "Ant lions have been our enemies for eons on Xen, until we learnt how to control them with the pheripods" - there, a satisfactory explanation for the ant lions. When Alyx looks at all the pods of people and simply says "Those poor people", she could have said "Those poor people, destined for a lifetime of slavery" or something along those lines - that would instantly clear up any doubts that we as a player had as to what the combine were doing.

I could go on and on.

 

[ltzgonemad]

I couldn't care for Eli or Alyx because we didnt see them enough.

Spoiler

Your shitting me right? First time I saw Alyx I knew that was the NPC I would want covering my back. Anyone that can take down 6 combine soldiers, I'll care about ^^

Nah, but seriously: I cared a lot for Alyx, being the ''Barney'' of HL2, the NPC you saw most in HL2, with a personality. And a darn good one aswell. Eli I cared about, maybe not as much as Alyx since we didn't see him enough. (Though I do think that we saw to little of Alyx/Barney aswell..)

I wanted HL1 weapons
I wanted HL1 enemies.

Ye, same here, but it was pretty good anyways IMO...

I wanted more Dr. Kleiner and more Barney.
I wanted more G-man.

I wanted more Alyx and more G-man...

I wanted to feel hunted like in the first game.

Spoiler

Well your hunted at the start, aren't you? The combines pull a razzia and you gotta run like hell, that's hunted enough for me. I wanted more team-action, like more missions where NPC's such as Alyx, Barney and Dog existed.

I wanted the amazing set pieces in the Trailers that weren't there.

Cant being to describe how much I agree with you on that point. I missed the scene where you dropped down a vent and met Alyx, where a Hydra then killed a Combine that dropped down after you. The fact that there we're basically no water-monsters (apart from those weird worms) was a PITA aswell...

 

[CookieCuttah]

I still like it...And I still felt a lot for the chars.
To be honest I didn't understand hl2 until all the expansions came out, then it all came together.
Wait for those and then judge the story please.((Not ment to be offensive I just want to warn all that we are still in a relatively small scope when it comes to hl2 and a relatively big one when it comes to hl.))

Also...Mods...Thats it. Rant over

 

[KagePrototype]

I like the narrative techniques it uses...gives me more excuses to play it over and over again. There are faults, but I can look over them. I thought it was pretty compelling...the things that you can find out, are enough I think...I'd rather get on with the game rather than be bogged down by exposition. Gave a nice balance between storytelling and action IMO.

 

[NachoMan]

Great post, Lanthanide.

Maybe if the half life universe wasn't so interesting and full of detail I wouldn't care, but it is. It's almost a living breathing atmosphere, which makes the fact that no-one explains anything all the more frustrating.

One other thing that's frustrating is the people who read the strategy guide and decide that the game does in fact have a great storyline, and if you can't work it out for yourself then it's something to do with your mental inadequacies. This is despite the fact that they needed to go away and read up on the story from somewhere else (other than the actual game) to make any sense of it.

 

[NachoMan]

-sorry, double post-

 

[subtlesnake]

Well, why establish Gordon as a mythical, messianic saviour, then?

They established him as a saviour, but HL2 puts him firmly in his place - as but a tool in a greater game.

 

[Spartan]

Eg: Eli could tell you some of the horrors that occured during the portal storm to him and his family - he hasn't seen you for 10 years, so he's sharing how he survived the past (as anyone would realistically do IRL - if you meet someone after WW2 that you hadn't seen for 5 years, you'd be interested to find out, if only briefly, how they managed to survive).

You'd think that Gordon's and Eli's reunion would be more interesting and dramatic. But no. Eli just says that he hasn't seen you for a long time, and that's about it. When you look at his picture, he says "you remember my wife, don't you?" which indicates that Eli and Gordon were pretty good friends back in Black Mesa. But again, it doesn't lead anywhere. And when the shit hits the fan, Gordon just leaves Eli and everyone else behind.

When Alyx looks at all the pods of people and simply says "Those poor people", she could have said "Those poor people, destined for a lifetime of slavery" or something along those lines - that would instantly clear up any doubts that we as a player had as to what the combine were doing.

That scene bothered me. Alyx just remarks "oh noes poor people" and then pays no further attention to them. She doesn't even ponder the option of freeing everyone. Cold hearted bitch.

To be honest, while Valve's method of storytelling is interesting and new, it just doesn't work in HL2. When you've got a lot of dialogue and characters, it just falls flat because of Gordon's inability to speak or convey emotions (or influence anything). No matter what happens, Gordon remains as stoic and silent as ever. In Half-Life, there was little dialogue and NPCs were only temporary, so it worked.

There's a reason for having a real player character in story-driven games.

 

[subtlesnake]

That scene bothered me. Alyx just remarks "oh noes poor people" and then pays no further attention to them. She doesn't even ponder the option of freeing everyone. Cold hearted bitch.

You're just overanalysing here. If someone did that in real life would you accuse them of being cold hearted? No, because people react to different situations in different ways. I'm sure she doesn't want to think or talk about those people.

And freeing them simply wasn't an option. The only way is the teleporter. Alyx is cutting it fine just trying to rescue Eli.

There's a reason for having a real player character in story-driven games.

I don't want to control a character. I want to be me.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Well, see, here's the problem:

As far as I remember, you have to go because Eli says that Gordon needs to get out of C17 (for no reason - it won't be long until you return and walk straight to the Citadel)

The combine civil protection force is on full alert searching for you. You leave the city to wait for the heat to die down.

Also, later, the only reason you can "walk straight into the citadel" is because you destroyed it's defenses. The supression feild, the striders. Without the general chaos, it would have been impossible to just walk in with a handgun.

so Alyx gets the bright idea of sending you to die in Ravenholm. You could have stayed to fight the Combine. Alyx told dog to meet up with her using an alternate route. Dog also could have just moved the rubble out of the way. Gordon's weaponry should have accomplished the same. Or Gordon could have just followed Dog.

Actually, no you couldn't. The entire roof was caving in. right after Alyx leaves, even more rocks fall down. A few sections of rock and cement each the size of a large truck were too much for dog to lift, and were certainly too much for gordon to use the manipulator on, since it has trouble just moving a small sedan. Also, since the area was obviously crumbling, it would not have been safe to stay and move each individual rock. And since dog was needed elsewheres, to protect Eli and Alyx, it would have been a waste of time for him to dig when he could just go through the alternate route.

She told dog to go through the alternate route, so why didn't Gordon follow? Because the only other route was to climb up the huge cliff walls of the scrapyard. Gordon obviously couldn't follow. His only way out was through Ravenholm.

Just use a little common sense and there's nothing to complain about.

 

[CriYam]

I don't want to control a character. I want to be me.

And you seriously wouldn't ask a single question?

Not even a one? Just a simple little "what the hell happened here?" wouldn't come out of your mouth?

 

[Spartan]

You're just overanalysing here. If someone did that in real life would you accuse them of being cold hearted? No, because people react to different situations in different ways. I'm sure she doesn't want to think or talk about those people.

I'm not overanalyzing. Alyx's reaction is not only cold and selfish, but stupid. She's got a shitload of people waiting to be freed and armed. Together, they could have blasted their way out of Nova Prospekt, easily.

And freeing them simply wasn't an option. The only way is the teleporter. Alyx is cutting it fine just trying to rescue Eli.

We'll never know that, because Alyx didn't take her time to tell Gordon that "I wish I could free everyone, but..." It's also laughable that Alyx can hack herself into Combine systems with ease, but can't figure out a way to unlock Eli's container.

I don't want to control a character. I want to be me.

Well, you're going to have to find another game, then, because you aren't playing yourself, you are playing Gordon.

 

[subtlesnake]

And you seriously wouldn't ask a single question?

Not even a one? Just a simple little "what the hell happened here?" wouldn't come out of your mouth?

I'm not allowed to ask questions. It's like waking up one day in a virtual reality world and discovering the creator has stopped you from speaking.

There are limitations because I'm controlling someone in a different universe. I get to step into Gordon's shoes for a little while, but of course there are restrictions.

I'm not overanalyzing. Alyx's reaction is not only cold and selfish, but stupid. She's got a shitload of people waiting to be freed and armed. Together, they could have blasted their way out of Nova Prospekt, easily.

Did you see the number of guards that flooded the chamber? Gordon had a hard enough time with sentries to support him. And the teleport was the quickest option.

Well, you're going to have to find another game, then, because you aren't playing yourself, you are playing Gordon.

Gordon is an empty vessel.